T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

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vijay.siddharth
Posts: 358
Joined: 14 May 2017, 13:08

T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Recently, I bought A Southern Music by vidvan sri T. M. Krishna, and found it mostly fascinating.

However, something was majorly troubling me. He kept talking of making Carnatic music more democratic and inclusive and so on, but isn't the best way of making it more democratic and inclusive is to:

(a) Sing an array of popular thukkudas, like Aruna Sayeeram mami or Madurai Somu sir, and
(b) Publish recordings of all his concerts on YouTube and organise guided listening sessions of the same so many people may get accustomed to listening to this?

If these are two solutions, why isn't vidvan Sri T. M. Krishna following neither, instead preferring to sing obscure Dikshitar krithis from the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini to fishermen and commuters, and restricting recordings? Or is there a parameter I am missing out?

Cheers,

Siddharth

bala747
Posts: 314
Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

Others have delusions of grandeur. TMK has delusions of mediocrity.

Listening to his concerts is about as exciting as watching paint dry. So I guess to stay relevant, he has to make vague motherhood statements like this.

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by kvchellappa »

CM is elitist and requires an ear and getting used to. It is not something like franchise, basic education, etc. that is relevant to all people. The very idea that it should be democratic and inclusive is ill-conceived. But, the fact that CM remained the exclusive preserve of some communities is undeniable. Its reach to a wider section of the population is desirable even from the point of view of the continued survival of CM. It is more open and available now (more is the crucial word; it was imparted to anyone with aptitude always). The methods adopted from the political sphere are a mockery. Others like Mudhra, Cleveland, the various sabhas, Carnatica, etc. are doing something solid. TMK is not doing anything innovative or earth-shaking. It will be interesting to know the impact of his sabdam, reviving temples as forums for music, svanubhava, Olcot exercise, taking music to schools, etc. His efforts remind me of industrialists starting one project every year or so, even before the others have started yielding results. The idea is to make use of sops, bank finance that is given more on promise than performance, opportunity to take out the money in project implementation stage, etc. Others who are on one project seem to be doing more for the cause of CM.
CM is not a field for publicity, politics, social justice, etc. It is one art form and has unlimited appeal only to limited people.
If someone makes a fool of himself naively or with some hidden agenda, we may bypass that.

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

The very simple reason for that is because T. M. Krishna is a hypocrite of the highest order.

His family comes from the TTK family, so he is extremely well heeled, but he still wants to save up for his children and their education and so on.

So Mr. Krishna has effectively built up a career as a 'social activist' and speaks in more literary festivals. That way, he has a guaruntee of an income which stable and steady until the day he can't talk anymore (which is unlikely).

Contrast that with a musician - after a point, you lose your market share. You begin singing to chairs again. Such is the circle of life.

So, Siddharth, do not conflate Krishna's altruism with magnamity. His avarice drives him in this fashion, and he is, at the end of the day, as money-minded as any other vidwan (or even more).

Treating concert recordings like a state secret means that he can still make money off album sales (in platforms like Charsur).

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by sureshvv »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 08:26
If these are two solutions, why isn't vidvan Sri T. M. Krishna following neither, instead preferring to sing obscure Dikshitar krithis from the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini to fishermen and commuters, and restricting recordings? Or is there a parameter I am missing out?
The obscure kritis are sung mainly for the benefit of the cognoscenti, not to the fisherman & commuters. I could be wrong.

You are right that his method seems rather sub-optimal. Primary motivation seems to be "in your face" to the elite.

bhakthim dehi
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bhakthim dehi »

preferring to sing obscure Dikshitar krithis from the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini
Is it?

vichu1947
Posts: 85
Joined: 07 Dec 2009, 11:42

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vichu1947 »

There are couple of very pertinent questions to TMK

1) he doesn't walk the talk. why is he not being inclusive. What is the percentage of Brahmin vs non-brahmin accompanist in his concerts ?
First let him stop having orthodox Brahmins (read RKS, Manoj, Arunprakash) as pakkavadhyams and instead groom and include non brahmin upa-pakkavaadhyam artistes..

2. why is he singing in Sringeri and the other mutts which are the so-called havens of brahminism.

hema
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by hema »

Non-brahmin pakkavadhyas -- we can count them on our fingers. We find nadhaswaram vidwans, seldom in other instruments. This is really sad given that many pillais (men) had inherited the music from devadasis who were the people who kept the arts alive. where do we find them now?

Also, a performer on stage would like to have people s/he is comfortable -- somebody who understands. Let us not be harsh. I personally enjoy his music a lot now. Initially I found it difficult. I told myself that I am being parochial. I am now open to his experiments -- I found the Perumal Murugan lyrics based concert difficult. Only time will tell, given that a Tyagaraja/Dikshitar/Shyama Sastri have gone through almost 300 years of practice.

BTW, how many of you did attend the Urur Kuppam Vizha? I attended on the 2nd day, where there was a mixture of both kuppam art and CM. Sangeetha had gotten a large number of kids from avvai home trained by Chandra Sekhara Sarma, Praveen, and KVG. The little girls were
great. A localite from the meenavars also played his percussion instrument. This programme was awesome. Sangeetha told me that she worked very hard with them for over six months to make it happen. I wonder how many among us will be willing to do this? Until this performance, I did not know that the meenavar's percussion could be so lovely to listen.

There was also a wonderful exhibition by the Kuppam kids that was organised. The compere (Veronica?) from the Kuppam was fantastic. She compered for TMK's concert on the beach too. Given that Krishna belongs to TTK, used to sport a namam during concerts (the reason why I would not want to attend earlier), he has come a long way.

On the other hand the programme by the current day young talent in CM was quite awful. It was not practiced at all.

The "Poromboke song" was criticised a lot. I forwarded the link to my students -- most of them were Christians or hardly listened to CM. They really loved it, and also enjoy his "Allavin song" a lot. It has made many of my students to want to listen to CM. Currently they listen to Krishna/Vignesh. We need more of such people so that the music is not left in the hands of a parochial few.

There are other experiments in popular music. Started with Hariharan? Now we do hear Suseela Raman, Harish Sivaramakrishnan -- etc. We do find that the halls are packed. I personally think the whole music scene is going through a revolution, and I do not want to miss it. The sruti shuddham that these people have is fantastic.

Recent concerts of Krishna have a widely varying audience -- this is important for CM. While Hariharans, Ramans' and Sivaramakrishnans have taken liberties, Krishna keeps the pedagogy of CM intact.

kvchellappa
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by kvchellappa »

Nice to know of the efforts and impact. But, we have to see if it is going to catch on. It will be great if CM is going to become popular.
It is not as though music itself is quarantined or a special gift for a chosen few.
We have seen how BMK had brought on a folk tune from Thekkadi or so, and Raghu has picked up some layam from a village drummer, and so on. That they can be trained on layam is not surprising. The question is if CM will become a passion, and there is no reason why it should. Other forms of music are as lively and there is no fundamental need for one of the various forms of music to be inclusive. It is laudable if it is taken to more people, but to give it a political colour is what is vitiating the air.
I do not get the point of connection between namam or pattai, and music. If I get it right, Ramanuja tried to reform casteism and tried for inclusiveness under Hari bhakthi. Several 'namams' have been in the forefront of fighting for inclusiveness in the fields that matter for human dignity more.

Rsachi
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Rsachi »

Siddharth,
🙂
Next you will be asking him to donate the various major prize monies he received to charity (the latest one was from the Congress I party).

But seriously, the very premise that he would like to democratise music is at variance with his avowed stand that he doesn't care for audiences and doesn't sing to entertain. Which leaves private, personal enjoyment and elevating and educating the audience. I think he is doing it.

If as Hema says TMK and his tribe have roped in fresh Carnatic talent from fishermen etc., it appears to be a welcome experiment. It will perhaps not stick unless the eco-system around them fosters it. I have read how a South African black man learnt Carnatic music from KJY and went back to SA with neither audience interest nor concert income to sustain him back home. Perhaps he died in penury.

Image

Now singing tukkadas vs. SSP stuff, it is a bit like cooking. You can always use sugar and ghee to appeal to taste but SSP (asafoetida) still is an esoteric ingredient. So as someone said, TMK uses SSP to appeal to those who love esoterics.

TMK has also allowed many to upload his videos on YT. Of late musicians see the merit in releasing songs on social media. In fact I know FB gives solutions at a cost to boost your page hits and likes. I suspect many including Carnatic artistes are doing that.

(Even Rahul Gandhi is doing it! Using bought bot boosters).

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

Rsachi wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 23:05 I have read how a South African black man learnt Carnatic music from KJY and went back to SA with neither audience interest nor concert income to sustain him back home. Perhaps he died in penury.
That begs the question, whether it is the sense of the sacred or discernibility that is paramount! Even Ghantasala's fans were attracted to him because of his specific ways of emoting Telugu - which we note it as cultural trait of that particular set of people and era! But there is more to that!
Last edited by shankarank on 22 Oct 2017, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

vichu1947
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vichu1947 »

hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53 Non-brahmin pakkavadhyas -- we can count them on our fingers.

Also, a performer on stage would like to have people s/he is comfortable -- somebody who understands.
If time and effort can be invested with kuppam children, the same can be done with the "hand countable" number of non brahmin pakka vadhyams to groom them and include them in TMK's team. If only he wants to do that. But TMK is comfortable only with the highly traditional and brahmnical RKS et al.
hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53
that Krishna belongs to TTK, used to sport a namam during concerts (the reason why I would not want to attend earlier), he has come a long way.
I am surprised someone deciding to attend or not to attend a concert based on that artist wearing naamam, vibhoothi etc. This appears to be a different dimension in music appreciation :lol: .

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

vichu1947 wrote: 22 Oct 2017, 20:20
hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53 Non-brahmin pakkavadhyas -- we can count them on our fingers.

Also, a performer on stage would like to have people s/he is comfortable -- somebody who understands.
If time and effort can be invested with kuppam children, the same can be done with the "hand countable" number of non brahmin pakka vadhyams to groom them and include them in TMK's team. If only he wants to do that. But TMK is comfortable only with the highly traditional and brahmnical RKS et al.
I think this kind of personal jibe is not required. TMK is known for taking the accompaniment of every Mridangist across generation in many seasons - to engage as many of them as possible. Which includes many Non Brahmin Mridangists.
vichu1947 wrote: 22 Oct 2017, 20:20
hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53
that Krishna belongs to TTK, used to sport a namam during concerts (the reason why I would not want to attend earlier), he has come a long way.
I am surprised someone deciding to attend or not to attend a concert based on that artist wearing naamam, vibhoothi etc. This appears to be a different dimension in music appreciation :lol: .
I would rather ask Hema to listen to this : https://youtu.be/e8SeXZ-WsdQ?t=1193 . The feminine principle is the nAmam. It has been discussed in the well of Carnatic central in Kutchery road. Why should we shy away?!.

Of course the Chicago scholars of Hinduism will apply their own Freudian theories of psycho-analysis. I would ask her to read a critique on that as well here : https://rajivmalhotra.com/wp-content/up ... -Final.pdf . To save time start from Page 77!

https://thewire.in/188210/right-to-priv ... t-artists/
Murugan was hounded and forced to sign an apology in front of 300 people with officials of the Tamil Nadu government present.
When Sivasankari was writing palangal series in Vikatan : https://www.scribd.com/document/1470848 ... ivasankari she would describe how a girl who came of age in an upwardly mobile Brahmin family in North-East or something - would not even tell her Mother!

The Thevar family Woman in Madurai opposite my house would converse with my Mother and say "do these kind of things happen in Iyer families?"

The Brahmins took all this in stride , because it has been many decades since they sent Srinivas Ramanujam and Subrahamanyan Chandrasekar to England.

But you cannot expect the same thing from village communities ( :cough: :cough: ) can you ? There should be a sense of things you see!

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

ShankaranK- this is exactly the type of Brahmin self-apologeticism that dominates South Indian Politics.

If Brahmins put aside their differences and snobberies (my Iyengar friends, present company excluded, look down upon Iyers very snobbishly), this type of thing would have happened to Sivasankari too!

Should we be thankful? :evil:

bala747
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

(my Iyengar friends, present company excluded, look down upon Iyers very snobbishly)

That's probably because they don't understand why Iyers take baths. Isn't Cuticura powder enough?

sankark
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by sankark »

melam72 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 10:33 His family comes from the TTK family, so he is extremely well heeled, but he still wants to save up for his children and their education and so on.

So Mr. Krishna has effectively built up a career as a 'social activist' and speaks in more literary festivals. That way, he has a guaruntee of an income which stable and steady until the day he can't talk anymore (which is unlikely).
melam72, what's wrong with either of the above? TMK has a right to look after his and his santhathi's well being irrespective of whether he is extremely well-heeled or not.

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

Sankark, I didn't say anything was wrong with it. It was an observation. I redirect you to the Sanjay thread in Concert Reviews to see what my criticism looks like!

bala747
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

melam72 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 10:33 The very simple reason for that is because T. M. Krishna is a hypocrite of the highest order.

His family comes from the TTK family, so he is extremely well heeled, but he still wants to save up for his children and their education and so on.

So Mr. Krishna has effectively built up a career as a 'social activist' and speaks in more literary festivals. That way, he has a guaruntee of an income which stable and steady until the day he can't talk anymore (which is unlikely).

Contrast that with a musician - after a point, you lose your market share. You begin singing to chairs again. Such is the circle of life.

So, Siddharth, do not conflate Krishna's altruism with magnamity. His avarice drives him in this fashion, and he is, at the end of the day, as money-minded as any other vidwan (or even more).

Treating concert recordings like a state secret means that he can still make money off album sales (in platforms like Charsur).
Ah so he's from the TTK family. For over a decade I used to wonder how this chap, with barely any discernable talent for music, who ploughs through ragas and krithis with all the grace of a drunk hippopotamus, got to perform at such a high level for so many years.

He should be glad people want to pirate his music. I would expect him to pay for the one time I wasted 30 minutes listening to him chew and spit out Madhyamavathi, much less spend one paisa of my money on his tripe.

prashant
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by prashant »

bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:00 For over a decade I used to wonder how this chap, with barely any discernable talent for music, who ploughs through ragas and krithis with all the grace of a drunk hippopotamus, got to perform at such a high level for so many years. There was nothing in his music that is of any value to anyone anywhere at anytime.

He should be glad people want to pirate his music. I would expect him to pay for the one time I wasted 30 minutes listening to him chew and spit out Madhyamavathi.
Oh, dear Lord, here we go again. Here comes our saviour, the inimitable arbiter of taste, il capo di tutti capi, the one and only bala747, telling everyone where to get off. What a wonderful world, where every Carnatic listener in the world died and made you Emperor. Look closely, you little, little, man, you're au naturel.

Too bad they don't have roadside ear cleaners in Singapore...

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 12:04 That's probably because they don't understand why Iyers take baths. Isn't Cuticura powder enough?
More because Palakkad Iyers shun the Vedas, the Upanishads, and other granthas, preferring the eternal, omnipresent philosophy of 'Cheap is Best' :evil:

Before a mod runs and shuts the thread, please note that both Bala and I were engaging in Banter.

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:00 Ah so he's from the TTK family. For over a decade I used to wonder how this chap, with barely any discernable talent for music, who ploughs through ragas and krithis with all the grace of a drunk hippopotamus, got to perform at such a high level for so many years.

He should be glad people want to pirate his music. I would expect him to pay for the one time I wasted 30 minutes listening to him chew and spit out Madhyamavathi, much less spend one paisa of my money on his tripe.
He is more of a hippopotamus, not a drunk one; the distinction of being of order Hippopotamus Alcoholi belongs to Sangeetha Kalanidhi Trichur V Ramachandran before he lost his voice.

But yes, it helps when TT Vasu invites you, a rookie, to perform.

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

prashant wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:15 Oh, dear Lord, here we go again. Here comes our saviour, the inimitable arbiter of taste, il capo di tutti capi, the one and only bala747, telling everyone where to get off. What a wonderful world, where every Carnatic listener in the world died and made you Emperor. Look closely, you little, little, man, you're au naturel.
It helps that there is no one around to see him au naturel, I guess...?
prashant wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:15 Too bad they don't have roadside ear cleaners in Singapore...
Too bad they don't have you in Singapore

FTFY.

melam72
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by melam72 »

Prashant, Prashant...

Here is something to ponder about.

Bala must be the short form of some other name, like Balasubramanian or Balachandran or Balachander (and not Balasaraswati).

Now, if Bala were to come to your native Bom Bahia and converse with a batch of school kids, what would they call him? Bala-jee.

Say this a few times - Bala-jee, Bala-jee, Balajee...

See what I did there?

Now, Balaji is a form of Vishnu. He resides in Tirupati, is very plump due to laddoos and very happy due to Alamelu Mangamma, and has a bunch of brothers across South India. Best of all, he gets a free floral garland all the way from Madurai, sent by a mad admirer of his.

He also happens to be our savior.

So learn to repeat his name, as the parama-rasika, for he is Bala-Jee of Tirupati-Singapore.

It is no surprise therefore that I, Varaha, and Bala-Jee are cut from the same cloth!

bala747
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

melam72 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:37
bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 12:04 That's probably because they don't understand why Iyers take baths. Isn't Cuticura powder enough?
More because Palakkad Iyers shun the Vedas, the Upanishads, and other granthas, preferring the eternal, omnipresent philosophy of 'Cheap is Best' :evil:

Before a mod runs and shuts the thread, please note that both Bala and I were engaging in Banter.
Do you know the wire was invented in Palakkad? Two palakkad iyers were fighting over a 1 paisa coin.

bala747
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

melam72 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 15:50 Prashant, Prashant...

Here is something to ponder about.

Bala must be the short form of some other name, like Balasubramanian or Balachandran or Balachander (and not Balasaraswati).

Now, if Bala were to come to your native Bom Bahia and converse with a batch of school kids, what would they call him? Bala-jee.

Say this a few times - Bala-jee, Bala-jee, Balajee...

See what I did there?

Now, Balaji is a form of Vishnu. He resides in Tirupati, is very plump due to laddoos and very happy due to Alamelu Mangamma, and has a bunch of brothers across South India. Best of all, he gets a free floral garland all the way from Madurai, sent by a mad admirer of his.

He also happens to be our savior.

So learn to repeat his name, as the parama-rasika, for he is Bala-Jee of Tirupati-Singapore.

It is no surprise therefore that I, Varaha, and Bala-Jee are cut from the same cloth!
SAAAAAAAR ENGEYOOOOO POGITENGA! My wife is not Alamelu Mangamma (I am reminded of that beautiful krithi, Srivenkatagirisam here, Alamelu mangasametham, anandapadmanabhamahitam), but a Tenkasi muslim named Halima and the floral garland is not from Madurai (though during my younger and wilder days some may have been from various questionable countries), but otherwise quite close. My family is a Tirunelveli Iyer family, so we consider most Maduraiites to be donkeys bearing gold. It would be flowers from the beautiful Tamirabarani river.

Prashant, apologies for dismissing you like that, I was unnecessarily (though unintentionally) rude. It's one reason why I don't post often. I am in no rush to impose my views on anyone, because I consider myself the lowest of rasikas, someone whose opinions shouldn't matter. I know enough to know I know nothing. I know what I like, and to some extent why I like it. I express those views every now and then. I lack the requisite finesse in expressing those views, and hence the language is crude and often harsh.

Unfortunately I worship music and take it very seriously. This leads me to have very firm convictions on how it should be treated. I despise those who murder ragas and krithis, especially those who should know better. I don't for instance, fault Abhishek Raghuram for getting the words to some obscure Dikshithar krithi wrong. But Ananda Natanaprakasam, and Minakshi Memudam dehi are two of his masterpieces, and to hear him butcher those magnificent works is as bad as hearing Shakira sing Nothing Else Matters.

If you find my views jarring, no fear. I don't post here often. A few times every few months at most. I have too many daughters to raise at this point. At this rate I will be a father to all 8 ashtalakshmis.

bala747
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by bala747 »

Just to clarify, my views are all about TMK the public figure, not the individual.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking" - Keynes

Rsachi
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Rsachi »

Bala747,
I like Tirunelveli Iyers. (My sambandhi is one).
You're blessed if you have Ashtalakshmis as your daughters.
If Lakshmi is your daughter, you're Samudraraaja.

Your revulsion to TMK's music need not be defended. It is your taste and preference.

But TMK's ascent, his devoted following, his audacity in dismissing many people, traditions and aspects with his half-baked ideas, and winning big cash prizes for that, all point to some musical ability. I mean the ability to please audiences with his music.

So let him be, let his fans be. Just as there is no one single type of masala dosa that can the be certified as "the only masala dosa that should be eaten", perhaps there is no one single brand or type of Carnatic music that can be mandated as "the only Carnatic music worth listening to".

And if musicians make mistakes in lyrics, it just shows a defective pedagogy and perhaps linguistic ability issues. But musicians always say that the primacy is for the music and not the sahitya. Although for me sahitya is very important. So...

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 16:43 but a Tenkasi muslim named Halima
You should try telling her once that she is the very embodiment of AlameluManga ;) :lol:
melam72 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 10:13 ...(my Iyengar friends, present company excluded, look down upon Iyers very snobbishly)...

Should we be thankful?
You should go beyond friends. Its like I also have Muslim friends (something that TMK quotes often with disdain). In fact a Muslim friend I had once taught me some important lesson, on a rainy day in a bicycle when I did not hop on to the carrier seat on time to avoid a puddle of water, he told me with considerable prognosis in the air : that I should study well! :lol: :lol: Sounds like vEdam putitu moment 8-) !

It is one thing to be a chauvinist that thinks their way is superior, but leave others alone (I know more, if you don't you do whatever) - another level of violence which goes differently that says "become like me".

We have to have that distinction and debate the mindset, ideology in public domain, not reduce it to just how people are.

Sachi_R
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Sachi_R »

Vid. Madurai GS Mani's very interesting talk, cued to the portion about Namam:
https://youtu.be/e8SeXZ-WsdQ?t=42m

hema
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by hema »

vichu1947 wrote: 22 Oct 2017, 20:20
hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53 Non-brahmin pakkavadhyas -- we can count them on our fingers.

Also, a performer on stage would like to have people s/he is comfortable -- somebody who understands.
If time and effort can be invested with kuppam children, the same can be done with the "hand countable" number of non brahmin pakka vadhyams to groom them and include them in TMK's team. If only he wants to do that. But TMK is comfortable only with the highly traditional and brahmnical RKS et al.
To be fair, Krishna has tried a number of artists, especially encourages many women violinists.
hema wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 15:53
that Krishna belongs to TTK, used to sport a namam during concerts (the reason why I would not want to attend earlier), he has come a long way.
I am surprised someone deciding to attend or not to attend a concert based on that artist wearing naamam, vibhoothi etc. This appears to be a different dimension in music appreciation :lol: .
Well, I always feel uncomfortable when any person be it an engineer, an artist, a doctor, a scientist ,..., display their religion/caste in public spaces (on purpose), especially given that Indians come in so many different varieties. The hypocrisy bothers me. It is different from the Mathematician Kannan who used to dress the same way be it in class, an international conference or whatever.

vichu1947
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vichu1947 »

hema wrote: 28 Oct 2017, 19:08
Well, I always feel uncomfortable when any person be it an engineer, an artist, a doctor, a scientist ,..., display their religion/caste in public spaces (on purpose), especially given that Indians come in so many different varieties. The hypocrisy bothers me. It is different from the Mathematician Kannan who used to dress the same way be it in class, an international conference or whatever.
What about 1 inch thick powder and glaring lipstick on some musician's face ? Indians come in different varieties, some wearing thick make up and some who cant afford such luxuries . Does that not bother you ? Does that not keep you away from musician's with makeup ? Even putting a bindi (pottu) is a sign that you are a Hindu. Since Indians come in so many different varieties, do you avoid Bindi ?

Yes, India has many religions , so let everyone display their religious identity, if they want to. What is anyone's problem ?

If we are going to a concert, let us appreciate or criticise the music, not the external symbols and signs of the musician. Too much thought about religion, caste etc may border on OCD.

Sachi_R
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Sachi_R »

Hema,
Let's think this through. Religious marks are an integral part of our tradition. Fearing ridicule and discrimination, our people stopped sporting kudumis, caste marks etc. when they learnt English, moved to towns, and started working "for sahibs. Even stopped wearing traditional Indian garments which are far more suited to our climate.

Now when someone sports a mark, or a kudumi etc., we cry foul. We feel it is obscene in modern India with KFC and McDonalds and Dominos peppering our city streets.

We have to examine ourselves, and see to what extent we have been cleansed of our traditions by the rulers and "secularists"and invaders.

Some communities sport facial hair. a large number of south Indian women are happy to wear a bindi or a traditional dress. Soon, that may also be cleansed out of our system.

I also have a pet peeve. The ugly sight of Indian women and men, having a beautiful tan complexion, painting themselves in ugly white power and stuff, to look like bleached monkeys. To me, that is far more repulsive than a big Namam or a dashing smear of Vibuti like a new bullet train track.

I feel we should also look at hypocrisy in every aspect of our life. How can a musician, making a good living out of a tradition and a body of work of composers, repeatedly suggest that he doesn't care for these things, and he would gladly vandalise these things? What is the idea of "secularising" our traditional music? In what kind of climate do we equate the effort to cleanse Carnatic music of Hindu beliefs to the effort to end manual scavenging? Do the two a) an ardent prayer to Rama like Karunajaladhe and b) forcing someone to clean and carry my faeces, have the same effects on society? Can anyone in his right mind even suggest that Carnatic music can be separated from the Hindu religion, our worship of Rama, Shiva, Ganesha, Muruga, Kamalamba, and our mythology and epics?

Why do people at all have names? That too names so vulgarly (I am being cynical) of our gods?

Any day, the name Krystallan sounds more modern than Krishna. A name Succulio sounds better than Sachi. A name Hymea sounds better than Hema. Why not change everything?

arasi
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by arasi »

Bala747,
Relieved to see your last posts--when you had landed after a number of 'my! that was something!' spins which shook us up, mumbai man, especially :( We know that you get carried away at times, but your rasanai and passion for music are genuine, as many of us know. The nAmAvali and vamsAvali of the pakka vAdyam poster didn't help in any way at all, I'm afraid :(
We can only bring in super humans here for us to see the light, hopefully? Here I am, proud of my tAmiravarNi origins as well--but so was our visionary from 'pretty paddy fence' who had love not only for us fellow UrkArargaL (townspeople) but for all bhArata dESis which then extended to all of humanity--Subramania Bharathi is the one.
vanjanaiyinRip pagaiyinRi sUdinRi vaiyaga mAndarellAm (without guile, rancor or being sly, all humans of the world), he extolled...

On a personal level, happy to hear that peN kulam is flourishing in your home! The best to the daughters and to their parents...:)

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 28 Oct 2017, 22:06 Carnatic music can be separated from the Hindu religion, our worship of Rama, Shiva, Ganesha, Muruga, Kamalamba, and our mythology and epics?
You have framed the issue in reverse I am afraid. The claim is: Carnatic musicians focusing on Bhakti themes, had separated it from large set of marginalized people and made it non inclusive.

First part of the claim - the basis itself is on shaky grounds. That Carnatic music's focus was Bhakti. There is the mix up of narrative truth vs. actual experience of music - ignoring the underlying meta-physics of the cultural body of thought. A civilization on the run due to invasions likely carried it's memories of what transcends the worldly when they were dispossessed of material wealth. That may have become the dominant narrative. The migrants who were not active in the conflicts , were the literate/liturgical classes. So these are all incidental matters of history - and we should be careful when we make definitive statements.

It is not just Bhakti that was the only motivation. All through pedagogy the insistence on adhering to Lakshana and honor it says a lot more about focus beyond the narrative content of compositions in music.

Since liturgical classes were the only ones left with the idea of preserving tradition ( post social upheavals ) this has come to bear. The other class of people were subverted to challenge tradition - and there is good cause for it - and I don't think the relative economic advancement of Bramhins can be cited as the sole reason for them to not sustain traditional arts. They had enough resources if they had wanted to. This is purely ideological subversion.

Lets take an example from the top tier community among them. Dr Nalli himself said publicly that no one in his own household was interested in hearing this music - they would go to drama and movies.

And then there is this marriage Purohit who stops a nadasvara rendition mid-song to conduct his ritual - but it didn't take long for the bride/groom/associates themselves to look down upon the Purohit himself - he was a necessity to create a semblance of tradition - as they used to say with disdain - 4 hours of mantras = Rs 4000.. and also as they say in the North : Panditji - kitna ghantE? Finish fast and take your dakshina.

So much for so called Brahmins sidelining marginal groups of artistes. They were sidelining who could be considered at least (visually) a representative of that tradition if not a true Brahmin himself.

As for Carnatic music it can express any theme based on a true human yearning! It is just that we separated that from the spiritual in our minds. The way you have framed it reeks of Christian ideas - you made the deities the God! They are just guests in the larger sacred space called the Temple!

Hence separation is a natural consequence.

Rsachi
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Rsachi »

Shankaran,
My firm understanding is that Carnatic music evolved to help express Bhakti. That is why the body of work called compositions, all of which are devotional in nature, form the bedrock of CM.
You can use the grammar and syntax of CM to compose and perform even the contents of the Hindu newspaper front page. But that does take away the building blocks of CM.

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

hema wrote: 28 Oct 2017, 19:08 Well, I always feel uncomfortable when any person be it an engineer, an artist, a doctor, a scientist ,..., display their religion/caste in public spaces (on purpose), especially given that Indians come in so many different varieties.
When you say public space - do you mean Madras Music Academy and places like that? What act of constitution is it registered under? Why don't you file a case in Court - saying symbols of religion and caste cannot be displayed in spaces like that registered under an act of a secular constitution and see where it goes?

Same for other public spaces like Hospital, factories or science labs.

vichu1947
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vichu1947 »

shankarank wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 11:47 When you say public space - do you mean Madras Music Academy and places like that? What act of constitution is it registered under? Why don't you file a case in Court - saying symbols of religion and caste cannot be displayed in spaces like that registered under an act of a secular constitution and see where it goes?

Same for other public spaces like Hospital, factories or science labs.
Valid point. If sporting a naamam in Music academy is not correct as it will offend non Hindus in a plural society (well, non Hindus themselves have not said so, it is only a bunch of zealous Hindus who think they are custodians of secularism who say so) , then sporting a naamam or vibhooti will offend in a railway station, cinema hall , airport , IIT or any other public place.

Has Hema stopped visiting all these places to avoid such people ?
hema wrote: 28 Oct 2017, 19:08 " The hypocrisy bothers me"
Another hypocritical thing should equally bother you, if not more :

After keeping self on high pedestal by lecturing Modi on how to run the govt and how to be inclusive, it was found TMK was accepting cash payment from a leading Sabha in Bangalore. It came out when the cash was stolen and he had to file a police complaint. Why cash for such big amount ? What was he trying to avoid ? How many such cash payments he has accepted so far ? Does this hypocrisy not bother you ?

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

vichu1947 wrote: 28 Oct 2017, 21:47 What about 1 inch thick powder ....some who cant afford such luxuries..
vichu1947 wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 15:18 it was found TMK was accepting cash payment from a leading Sabha in Bangalore
Rsachi wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 11:29 ...body of work called compositions, all of which are devotional in nature, form the bedrock of CM.
We either offer Macaulayan notions of what is devotional or not - or start a Marxist inspired class warfare in response. The latter is 70 years of NCERT social science education and media subversion.

If somebody does a pompous wedding - we don't look at it as his/her pockets unloading into society. We don't think what other innovative service we can offer to the occasion - we immediately think about the hungry poor!

We even forgot that Mahatma Gandhi's friends had to spend a lot to keep him look poor! And he was not putting up a pretense, he was trying to emphasize a difference with ways of the British!

No wonder most of the Marxist leaders are also Brahmins by caste!

Even Thyagaraja extolled his rAma residing in gold ( kanaka vasana).
Rsachi wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 11:29 ...grammar and syntax of CM to compose and perform even the contents of the Hindu newspaper front page...
or lame sarcasm!

Is there any reference to any Deity here: viewtopic.php?t=24101

or here : http://sangitasopana.blogspot.com/2012/ ... avali.html

If Deity is the only one that makes it devotional : This can very well be printed in front page of the secular "The Hindu" and then you can use that as a ruse to sing it!
Last edited by shankarank on 29 Oct 2017, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by Rsachi »

Shankaran
I think we should meet sometime and discuss these subjects.

I give you the Hindu newspaper logo here, with my best wishes. The original concept was truly Hindu in this logo, showing purity (lotus), truth (conch), wisdom and knowledge (sun), prosperity (Kamadhenu), strength (Airavata)

Image

RSR
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by RSR »

Art is not ( and should not be ) for Art's sake... Art should elevate the people. . List the evils in society and ponder over the reasons. Art should then work towards the removal of such evils in society as well as in individuals. There have always been reformist movements like Buddhism and Jainism. as early as 600 BC. We do not know much about the music of those times. The only well categorized record of CM ( we are not talking about HM here), begins with Purandharadasa. ( 1500 AD). True ,,,it may be interpreted as reaction to muslim rule in North India. But that is one way of looking at it , only. All the ideological/religious systems begin as protest against social evils. All the possible art forms are brought into service of the movement against the evils. The reform movement succeeds for a while but succumbs in turn once again to the same evils under new masters. Whether this is dialectical spiral development or mere going round and round , is a mute and still open question. "Philosophers have only interpreted the world. Our task is to change it" . Whether that Marxist-Humanist optimism is valid or misplaced , time alone can tell. Let us avoid the use of terms like .Marxist' and such. Gita has postulated many paths like karma Yoga, Gnana yoga, and Bakthi Yoga for self-abnegation . Without self-abnegation, we cannot get volunteers for reform movement. Was it not the work of Saint-poets of Mahartashtra , and Vitoba movement that sustained the anti-Aurangazeb struggle ? So rich in culture and artistic music. Such music unifies the people and liberates them from petty self-centered thinking and worries. Thus, Bakthi movement can be progressive. Witness the Liberation Theology movement in Latin America, and a great book 'Fidel and Religion' . is worth reading deeply. (conversation with FIDEL CASTRO)
Talking of CM only, it is definitely Bhakthi-oriented. as presented by Jayadeva, Purandradasa, Sadasiva Brammmendram, The trinity, Swathi ThirunaaL, and Patnam Subramanya Iyer. Composer-Lyricists of CM of recent times like Mysore Vasudevacharya all follow the same path. Music has been misused by some to pander to base instincts too but that too was done with the misplaced method. It was not the mainstream. By preaching Bhakthi Yogam, the composers fought against social evils like casteism, untouchabilty, injustice to women and against economic inequality as well. ( even against cruelty to animals ) . Ideology? Certainly.! Why not? Ideology is behind every movement. If it serves the purpose, what is wrong? .. Mao ridicules artistes of poor quality though they serve the party. Such Art does more damage to the cause . Recently, the famous people's poet of Naxal movement in Andhra has jettisoned his anti0theist thinking and is now spreading the message of Equality through Religious faith, deep-rooted in our soil.
Tamil writer Puthumaippitthan gives an insight into the role of religious faith in a perceptive article. It is in Thamizh. "சின்ன விஷயம்

"கடவுள் இருந்தால் என்ன? இல்லாவிட்டால் என்ன? ஒரு கூட்டத்தின் பாதுகாப்பிற்கு அது அவசியமானால், ஒரு பொய்யைச் சொல்லித்தான் , கடவுள் என்ற பிரமையைச் சிருஷ்டித்தால் என்ன? இந்தக் கடவுள் விஷயம் ரொம்ப சுவாரஸ்யமானது. அது தனி மனிதனுக்கு ஒரு தைர்யத்தைக் கொடுக்கிறது. ,சமூகத்திற்கு ஒரு சக்தியைக் கொடுப்பது போல்.. நாஸ்திகம் தர்க்கத்தில் நிஜமாக இருக்கலாம்..அது சுவாரச்யமற்றது. வாழ்க்கையில் ஒரு பிடிப்பை ஏற்ப்படுத்த முடியாதது. .அது தனி மனிதனுக்கு, அதாவது விதிவிலக்கான தனி மனிதனுக்குச சாந்தியை அளிக்கலாம். ஆனால் ரசனையற்றது. சுவையற்றது. அதனால்தான் ஜைன மதம் நாஸ்திகக் கொள்கையால் அழிந்தது. புத்தமதம் நாசமுறாதிருக்க புத்தனைக் கடவுளாக்கித் தப்பித்தது. ...வாழ்க்கையில் ஒரு வெறி ஏற்பட்டால்தான் பிடிப்புடன் முன்னேறி வாழ முடியும். அதைச் சமயம் கொடுக்கிறது. .அது சொல்லுகிற மோக்ஷத்தைக் கொடுக்காவிட்டாலும், இது போதும். அந்த மோக்ஷத்தைவிட இது மேலானது! " ...புதுமைப்பித்தன். "சின்ன விஷயம்' என்ற கட்டுரையின் கடைசிப் பகுதியில்.. ! "..( will give translation soon).. and sharing another wonderful piece of writing by Innambooran .. "கடவுளும், அமானுஷ்யமும்:////A CLASSIC FROM INNAMBURAN
https://sites.google.com/site/rsrshares ... innamburan

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 23:30 "Philosophers have only interpreted the world. Our task is to change it"
There in lies the violence. Change the world! Indic approach is to create traditions and have people seek into it and change themselves - it is that decentralized. It may result in social issues - but the effort must come from those that are marginalized - if their social status is the one that bothers them. They must work through the system. Academicians and Arm chairs don't have any legitimate ground to speak for them. What is their record so far?
RSR wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 23:30 Let us avoid the use of terms like .Marxist' and such
Is Marxism some holy thing that was created @ Big Bang - a science kind of thing! What is it's record? It's theories have been put to use for critical philology of everything under the sun. What predictions it has made to be called a social science?
RSR wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 23:30 Whether that Marxist-Humanist optimism is valid or misplaced
Nothing can be surreal than that term itself - juxtaposition of opposites! Oxymoron! There is no humanism left in it.
RSR wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 23:30 Mao ridicules artistes of poor quality though they serve the party. Such Art does more damage to the cause .
https://twitter.com/tmkrishna/status/922828340980989953

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKRyRe6EQ_4

https://youtu.be/AuePQi2nPRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmN9-JfrWeE

The Iconoclasts are in Awe as Maoism that supplies them with plastic trinkets to retina screens is putting up a show of antiquity with a Confucian skill! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cool response to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQdkFRU ... u.be&t=876 you think?? 8-) :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The coordinated attack by the Liberal Left Cabal of Mylapore - wth SMAG editor commenting on complicated pallavis around the same time is telling!

And the Tamizh writeup you have from "INNAMBURAN" is nothing but mind sciences as practiced through cultural devices , now digested as mindfulness from Yoga!

RSR
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by RSR »

'Changing the world'... does not imply violence. The fundamental problem is economic inequality and the institution of private property. All great thinkers around the world have upheld that truth. When the under-privileged and explored people become politically aware and attempt to change the system by 'peaceful means', it is the ruling class that gives up all pretenses of democratic norms and uses state power to crush the uprising. Ultimately, when it becomes impossible by the change in balance of forces, it INFILTRATES into the under-privileged protest movement and diverts it to more mundane aims. Cinema, Theater , Idiot box and twitter-facebook-tube-whatsup are the present day equivalents. .. the opiates today._ and even the Press.
All over India except Tamilnad, dance forms are decent. Critic Subbudu with his customary brutal frankness stated that Baratha Natyam is nothing but Srui'ngaram ( Is there any word in English language where we have 'kutRiyalugaram' as in 'ezhutthu ( both short!). That is probably the reason why western transliterators made it smrrithi ( there should be no i there) '

Religion is the opium of people' is much misquoted and out-of context 'cliche'. Comrade Stalin understood the importance of Russian Orthodox Church and not only lifted the ban but actively sought and used the co-operation of the Russian Orthodox Church in steeling the Russian Working class to face the unimaginable catastrophe and calamity brought about by the Nazis. and WON.... The role of self-sacrificing Buddhist priests in the glorious Vietnam War is acknowledged even by the Time magazine.
The objection is not to the aims of so-and so but against the gimmickry. Smt MS did more in creating that awareness of social equality than anyone else , by her Art. of highest caliber. The 'Hero' too can if he leaves the Chennai ghetto and tours all over Tamilnad and propagate his message by his great talent in music ( which no one denies). instead of vandalizing CM by crude lyrics and visualization. It may not be a bad idea to have all-male concert team, as a first step. The next post is how Pope Francis is serving humanity. ( signifiv=cantly, he is the FIRST POPE from LATIN AMERICA) . https://sites.google.com/site/rsrshares ... ent-issues

RSR
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by RSR »

19-6-2015
========
With a poet's lyricism, a former chemist's precision and a pontiff's moral thunder, Pope Francis recast humanity's relationship with nature in stark ethical terms, hoping to spur a warming, filthy world to clean up its act "before it's too late."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In issuing "Laudato Si," his much-anticipated encyclical on climate change, the pope on Thursday took an extraordinary approach to an environmental issue often framed in the dry language of science. Francis' teaching document is a melodic yet radical indictment, depicting a materialistic and wasteful society that is hurting the planet and its poorest people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
He challenges the world to stop pollution, to recycle and carpool and to do without air conditioning — and makes it a moral imperative. "The exploitation of the planet has already exceeded acceptable limits and we still have not solved the problem of poverty," he writes.
----------------------------------------
The encyclical covers all sorts of environmental issues, including waste, extinctions, genetically modified organisms and the lack of clean water. Addressing "every living person on this planet," Francis calls for a bold cultural revolution to correct what he said was a "structurally perverse" economic system in which the rich exploited the poor.

"The earth, our home, is beginning to look more and more like an immense pile of filth," he wrote. He praised a "less is more" lifestyle, one that shuns air conditioners and gated communities in favor of car pools, recycling and being in close touch with the marginalized. He called for courageous, radical and farsighted policies to transition the world's energy supply from fossil fuels to renewable sources, saying mitigation schemes like the buying and selling of carbon credits won't solve the problem.

Francis argues that there really is no distinction between human beings, their faith and the environment: They are all part of a single integral ecology. "Everything is related, and we human beings are united as brothers and sisters on a wonderful pilgrimage, woven together by the love God has for each of his creatures and which also unites us in fond affection with brother sun, sister moon, brother river and mother earth," he writes.

shankarank
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

Oh well. The pope is undoing the reformation , the work ethic and the resultant materialism now ;) :lol:
RSR wrote: 30 Oct 2017, 10:32 When the under-privileged and explored people become politically aware and attempt to change the system by 'peaceful means'
How a notion conceived in the factories during Industrial revolution is extrapolated to cover explored people? Amazing! It is the papacy that divided the world between the warring brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

When the cross is planted the territory becomes discovered! And we club them with capitalists?

Indian history is in the kitchen proclaimed a Marxist recently - asking people to take look at the dhanyams and spices in the Anjarai peTTi or Masala Dabba. He needs to be reminded that the world history turned due to the Spice Trade and blockage of trade routes by the Ottoman!

The pope needs to address the big wigs at G-7 meet or some such and we just have to hope that the leaders whose constituencies include the evangelical rightists do lend their ear. For the financial system was created from things like this : https://swarajyamag.com/world/forget-ko ... from-india and every Insurance policy all through developed world is sold up to the Swiss!

It is interesting to see how the left finds it's alliances : https://chomsky.info/20091203/ . A Nat-Geo (:cough:) explorer journalist had the temerity to call the tribals of Columbian forest - left there after Rubber plantation era - victims of Industrialization!

Shall we say the U.S intervention was done with unconsciously benign intent (:cough, :cough:) just like the British did in India : https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/w ... /06/25.htm

And it takes a sanghi to write more truths: https://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2007/11/1 ... t-economy/

vsn69
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by vsn69 »

History is supposed to speak/contain the truth but it does not always. The powerful can make untruth read or be accepted as the truth.
In the western world investigative journalism relentlessly pursues and uncovers most of the truth. History cannot get covered up and should not. Not in India. People dare not change that.
People who are knowledgeable historians will not admit so. They will know the truth but not put that in print.

RSR
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Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by RSR »

This happens to be 2017, centenary year of the Bolshevik Revolution. .. May be it failed but its goals were laudable. Confining ourselves strictly within the topic of the thread, ( how to bring CM to the people), my personal icons of CM like MS, DKP, NCV, Madurai Mani Iyer and almost all the leading vocalists of the turbulent decades from 1917-1957,contributed to the freedom movement. And none of them was atheist. If true, it is thrilling to learn that Madurai Mani 's father M.S.Ramaswamy Iyer gave a lec-dem ( in modern parlance) of the Melakartha ragams and Mani then just a 15 year-old boy, gave demo by singing ..imagine ..of all places , during the Annual Congress party meet at Chennai..1927 ! That a party meet , openly against the then ruling Imperialists, could accommodate and promote an event of such high cultural value , is a clear and shocking reminder to us about the horrendous degeneration that has set in. and the 'nihilists' have contributed to that in no small measure. ..very 'Marxist' in their dictum 'to relentlessly expose and criticize' the existing order, ,. but let us not forget, that it was not all negative but a beacon to a better world. .. The freedom thus achieved has to be 'inclusive' and a just society. Whatever unites our people , and takes them towards a peaceful, prosperous and just society is progressive. Great souls of our country in the Bengal Renaissance have shown the way. It is neither blind hatred of western Industrial excellence nor slavish adoration of the moneybag west. Gandhiji, Nehru, Barathy , Kesav Chandra Sen and even Vivekananda, have acknowledged the role of the progressive West But for William Jones, Sanskrit's trasures would not have come to light. It has been shown that Industrial development and scientific progress need not be necessarily profit-oriented . Rapid industrial development is a must and emphasis should equally be on just distribution of wealth generated. Jawaharlal achieved the best synthesis of the most revolutionary and forward looking practices of Soviets with the millennium old and cherished values of our glorious country. It is evident that the high ideals of our movement have been corrupted and derailed. But history never travels in a straight line. The Bolshevik victory came after learning the lessons of Paris Commune. There is reason to be optimistic about the near future. ..... The balance of forces is taking a U-turn. The under-privileged be it within our own country or in international arena, have to learn to join hands with all the progressive forces in all the countries, all the religions and all the cultures. always wary of the 'Free World' and its 'investigative journalists'. Myths are more important than 'truths'. if such myths foster justice and brotherhood. Have we not read our Gibbon? our Carlyle? our Shelley? Ruskin and Russell and Shaw and Tawney , Webbs and Laski? Apparently, those voices have been muted in the unipolar world of ant-egalitarians. but just apparently.. Let us preserve the glorious traditions of our CM and fuse it and use it for achieving an egalitarian society. The greatest enemy of progress is Hippie mentality. One can be an agnostic or even a theist, without forsaking the achievements of the predecessors.and be a staunch Leninst in values and practice. Mayakovsky was silenced after a short time, and Soviet union under Stalin, promoted classical music of highest standard and made it available to the great majority of working people. Stalin pointedly asked' would you not travel by train, just because it was the invention of the Bourgeois? " This confusion between Industrialism and Capitalism should end. The Bolshevism was not of Industrial proletariat alone. Read Lenin's 'To the Rural Poor'. As Dr.Kalam, would say, 'dream. dream...without dreaming and daring, we cannot progress'.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 31 Oct 2017, 22:37 But for William Jones, Sanskrit's tr(e)asures would not have come to light.
Based on where we are now and how we ended up receiving knowledge , the survivor bias operates and we have no option to credit him and Max Mueller - even if we have to go back and correct some of the notions.

But then extending your expression of "explored" , we also should note that , that is implicitly acknowledging them of "discovering" something. We inadvertently deny the right to even "know" or right to even "knowledge" of the explored people who have passed it down through generations.

We credit U.vE.Sa for discovering and bringing to light all the tamizh works. But the Dravidian movement is questioning how many even acknowledge : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyothee_Thass

And Reading this : http://www.dinamani.com/tamilnadu/2017/ ... 69373.html

U.VE.Sa was content with his salary ( likely from Colonial hierarchy) and would not accept a village donation from Sethupati , where it would have been more Authentic exploration of Tamizh - not just the language , also the lived experience and metaphysics!

Now see where it is headed: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 931803.ece

Everybody wants to have a seat at the high table!

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 29 Oct 2017, 23:30 We do not know much about the music of those times. The only well categorized record of CM ( we are not talking about HM here), begins with Purandharadasa. ( 1500 AD). True ,,,it may be interpreted as reaction to muslim rule in North India.
You are again displaying the bias of history centrism. So what if it reacts to something.. Isn't it the nature of Sanskriti? Did it ever remain frozen? European renaissance was a restart of the classical era of Western civilization and what was in between - dark ages!

And what is the Sanskriti of the Dasa Kootas ?
https://streaming.acharyanet.com/free-l ... as-chapus/
The Suladi Sapta Talas were a contribution of the Dasa movement including PurandaraDasa and others

Isn't that Wonderful? That is a continuation of the spirit of Sanskriti from pANiNi onwards! Systematization with a sense of sacred embedded. Their narrative was created in their experience of their time and place!

purandaradAsa was a vyAPAri who gave it up , but he laid the foundation of new vyApAram (profession) quite solidly. tyAgaraja only fortified it with his yati-viSrama in the carnatic region!

We can call it karnATaka music just only for that.

And there is a sub-altern validation. Every unfamiliar observer who mocks Carnatic music will tap and turn - and in that parody they indicate the difference they experience - and that is experiencing the meta-physics - saSabda and niSabda! Of course they will also "Aye-Aye" with it - which scholar BhAtkanDe noticed - but did he notice the former aspect at all?

And just reading this - you should realize how irrelevant history is and how Sanskriti in it's experience is much larger than the "language" Sanskrit. Shed a tear or two! The chandas/matras precede, even letters , language and meaning!

And here is a nice String of Kannada compositions - some may be composed recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSAZ-NLi06I

He is quite harsh - I don't know whether you will see your usual Bhavam. But don't miss the absolute comfort on time scale - result of lifetime sAdhakam. Observe the eye-contact between him and the percussionist.

The upper cortex - that we do Math with now evolved, from necessity to make tools to cut bones to eat the marrow - so all knowledge is in the bones - experience it!

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by RSR »

I understand that 1) It was 'Judge' Mani Iyer ( S.Subramanya Iyer... one of the founder-members of Indian National Congress) who helped in getting POORNALINGAM PILLAI's book 'Tamils 2000 years ago'. published.
2) Ayothidasa Pandithar was sent to Ceylon by Judge Mani Iyer and Henry Steel Olcott ( to be verified) .through Theosophical Society Chennai . in which Mani Iyer was very active.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: T. M. Krishna and Inclusiveness

Post by sankark »

A link in a vernacular language http://www.jeyamohan.in/1419#.Wh5VwL_hWRM

Interesting read.

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