Vimarsanams

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Vimarsanams

Post by kvchellappa »

As a sleepy rasika, I want to make some audacious points about vimarsanams:
Some people seem to be waiting for some lapse on the part of the artist to comment upon. Such lapses must occur in all concerts. If a concert is engaging overall, such lapses even when noticed do not detract from its total appeal.
Some seem to attend a concert with an examiner's eye or like a panel member to rate the performer.
Some people go to the extent of suggesting what pieces must be sung and in what order and at what length.
Some criticism seems to be on what the artist has not done!

Some points I read in Sruti are interesting.
On being prompted Apporva Krishna asked Sandeep Ramachandran, a question: “How would you plan to spread Carnatic music among the masses?” Sandeep replies, “I think it most important for us to be true to music, to be proud of our art form and pursue it with vigour. The beauty of each musician is to be committed and dedicated to the art form. This will help in attracting recognition from all.”
That is the best an artist can do to keep art alive and make it reach an audience. Criticism should also endeavor to further this thought. While negatives need be brought to the attention of the performer, it must be done in a way as to encourage, not to show one’s technical competence. A snub of a comment may get readership, but may be disservice to the art. Kanchi Acharya has said, “If you speak harshly nobody will listen to you even if you mean well. Your speech must be beneficial and, at the same time, capable of bringing happiness to the man to whom it is addressed. This is truthfulness.”
Sri V Ramnarayan writes in Sruti: “So much complexity in terms of laya intricacies or challenging ragam-tanam-pallvis is on offer that even Sangita Kalanidhis will find it difficult to offer expert comments on many of these concerts.” He concludes, “Every rasika is a potential critic, broadcasting to the world even as a concert is in progress. All he or she needs is a smart phone.”
Elsewhere while offering his impressions on a ‘fabulous’ concert, he writes, “ .. I did not take any notes at the concert.”

I read that Subbudu would write his review from memory only. It is a different matter whether Subbudu’s style is a good model, but perhaps only ‘spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings’ of the concert recollected when all the ‘sound and fury’ have ceased, should be the butt of the review. If only the negatives remain in the mind, it may not be worth writing on.

It is nice to read some reviews in rasikas.org. They are instructive and make some nice points that make a lay listener advance his appreciation of music.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote: 26 Oct 2017, 13:56 “If you speak harshly nobody will listen to you even if you mean well. Your speech must be beneficial and, at the same time, capable of bringing happiness to the man to whom it is addressed. This is truthfulness.”
I asked a knowledgeable rasika why she is not writing ( she wrote good reviews in our email distribution years back) - and she says she cannot but be brutally honest and hence keeps herself to her facebook friends nowadays. if people like her write - people like me will just add my comments and not initiate threads on concerts. As I said once in a response to arasi: from the posts of people who regularly post here, their ignorance and biases , lack of perspective will be transparent and you are welcome to evaluate the review itself based on that.
kvchellappa wrote: 26 Oct 2017, 13:56 “So much complexity in terms of laya intricacies or challenging ragam-tanam-pallvis is on offer that even Sangita Kalanidhis will find it difficult to offer expert comments on many of these concerts.”
I don't think this is that prevalent. It seems restricted to special events like Pallavi Darbar - and why should these not beoffered there. Secondly do you think - just out of the cuff - somebody can come out and render some complex Pallavi - even if they prepared recently. Think about what type of accompanists must be there to make it happen. There are stories of violinists who put down their violin in AIR grade auditions and cried and being consoled - not being able to execute a run of the mill pallavi - with trikAlam in 80s.

In the absence of parampara tradition that abandoned focus on layam and many musicians seeking advanced training for the same, why should people not think methodically and procedurally to bring back some of this. Rasikas will get exposed to something new, and the artiste will grow as this becomes more artistic ( second nature) as time progresses!

And Carnatic musicians through ages are the ones who have been so considerate to the rasikas - and we should give it to them!!!

Sivaramakrishnan
Posts: 1582
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 08:29

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Intent observers but not necessarily Critics are those we need.

There is no harm pointing out lapses lest the artist takes things for granted.

In the west (whom we emulate) critiques are of high reckon.

I follow a system of talking out with the artist after the concert to ascertain facts or clarify doubts. This is difficult to accomplish but helps to form realistic impressions. (I have come across artists who are even averse to discussions for reasons best known to them.)

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by kvchellappa »

I read this recently:
I.Pavlov: “Artists grasp life as a single whole, totally, completely, a living reality, without any fractionating, without any separating; others – thinkers – just fractionate it, thereby sort of killing it, making of it some tentative skeleton, and only then they, as it were, reassemble its parts and attempts to revive it somehow, an endeavor in which they fail completely.”

RaGa sisters quoted this Aesop’s fable about facing criticism:
https://www.bartleby.com/17/1/62.html

From Sanjay’s blog:
“Here is an interesting take on criticism by the writer Bernard Malamud in an interview given to the Paris Review in 1975.
‘I dislike particularly those critics who preach their aesthetic or ideological doctrines at you. What’s important to them is not what the writer has done but how it fits, or doesn’t fit, the thesis they want to develop.’
This can also be seen in Carnatic music where the ‘knowledgeable’ are always keen to try and impose their value systems on the musician. Sometimes the reaction to the music is so determined by the already existing assumption that has been made on how or what should be performed. Every generation of artists keep throwing up the odd rebel who shatter these existing notions and make the ‘knowledgeable’ redefine their expectations. Then the new generation of artistes will suffer from not conforming to this recently formed set of values and so it goes on and on.”

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

Both the artistes quoted are accepted as mainstream traditional artistes. Some of the criticism based on aesthetics is aimed at the thinking process of the whole system and not any particular artiste. It is not sometimes the burden of a specific artiste to think about these issues. The process of criticism will initiate the thinking.

It has to be evaluated based on the listening experience of all rasikas ( from a rasika perspective) and the opinion of the expert musicians across the board. I state the former first because criticism emanates per-se from rasikatvam. Otherwise I am sure the expert musicians share their comments privately with seeking artistes. That is a true Guru-Sishya conversation. And that is different from what a rasika may write in this forum.

Hope you don't treat the above as ideological position - especially the Guru-Sishya part. Without that there is no tradition and no traditional music. It is just like any other popular art.

I am sure the folk artistes who carry on traditions take similar feedback from within , from the elders/experts within their tradition. That should be the way to break the folk/classical divide - they unite in the sense of traditionalism and the sacred sense that they carry.

There may not have been a rasika based criticism there - may be fine arts is that which allows this to happen. Because there is an accumulated experience of listening.

I am sure the artistes get some genuine reaction from the feedback posted here in reviews than any knowledgeable reviewer writing in MSM. This is based on what the rasika actually sees, feels and enjoys in a concert - the pratyaksha pramANa - and does not bring any factor of knowledge from training. For all you know the rasika may not be trained in the music.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by sureshvv »

Unfortunately as a culture we encourage critical vimarsanam just for the sake of it rather than properly recognizing the talent, effort, dedication & courage of another individual.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

I thought the standards of Carnatic music were quite high - I still think it is and it is not easy to gain recognition among rasikas with experience of listening. Most pursuers of music , especially somewhat concert worthy kids want to go and perform in Chennai. So that by itself is recognition of hard work and dedication.

Some artistes are beyond recognition! If anything it may be that some worthy artistes are not given the ears by listeners! That is a listening problem! Too much sense of entitlement and individualism - the kind that kvc says freedom to like and dislike - that is actually a problem!! First off they don't recognize the tradition/good thinks in society/greatness of individuals who have kept it alive. And take cues and try to listen!

Second artistic freedom is an overblown concept. When GNB sang SubrahmanyAya namastE in front of Ariyakudi's house, a rasika goes to ARI and asks him what nerve GNB has to do that. ARI is reported as replying, "just wait, Balasubramaniam will not do something without a purpose". And there comes the svaraprastAra as tA-pa-traya with a svarakshara! He was called intellectual for it. But in retrospect , we see he has worked hard to get there! And by bringing in fresh ideas , he was not exercising his artistic freedom. Rather he was sharing new musical truths found in his hard work/sAdhakam. He was trying to convince elders and learned and became successful at it. He is not a rebel!

if we see it that way , the hard work is indeed recognized!

I don't know why we want to hang on to such other narratives, when the right narratives are available right within our tradition!

As if only French revolution brought freedom and enlightenment to people and before that they were in darkness!

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by msakella »

The great GNB is a rebel to others. The great Lalgudi G. Jayaraman, having very efficiently and successfully accompanied him many a time, stood at the TOP of the Violin-players as he sincerely followed the footsteps of the Great GNB. amsharma.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

So you are saying Ariyakudi generation, which includes, Musiri, Chembai , Maharajapuram and others sang exactly like how their Gurus sang and never sounded any different.

One thing we need to consider: Today we have to "teach" music and we have methods. Also we think producing variation in svaraprastAra ( so called kalpana music) is creativity. Those were not the times they were "taught" music. ViNa Balachandar proclaims he never had any Guru.

But we cannot the miss the reality that a Balachandar did not come about from Bikaner!

If you are "taught" music , by gully , you better suspend your freedoms and stop asking questions! Just learn first!

Just take a look at this silliness:

https://narthaki.com/
QUOTE
"In art you are taught to accept and in science to always question. I think it is very important for us to question many things about dance as well."
- V Madhurima
(‘Science stikes a resonant chord at the Music Academy’ by Shubashree Desikan, The Hindu, Feb 17, 2020)
They don't know what is science and have no clue how it is learnt!

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by msakella »

To tell the fact, no other South Indian musician did ever sing that much creativity in music like GNB. It is very clearly evident if we listen to many concerts of GNB particularly along with LGJ on Violin.

In respect of ‘teaching music’, as a professional music-teacher having worked for 35 years in a full-time music-educational institution teaching right from a-b-c-d and having been training the students till date (now my age is 82 years) in a ‘time-bound and result-oriented’ method in learning music and also as a professional performer, I am compelled to differ with you and write that music cannot be taught but learnt from an efficient and honest teacher who doesn’t sing or play for more than 5% in any of the classes but mainly initiates the students to go through the logical process for more than 95%. The teacher has to give him the relevant music-material and initiates the student to go through it. This is the way Sonthi Venkataramanaiah, teacher of Thyagaraja, initiated his student to learn music hardly within only one year. But, our egoistic and selfish musicians did not care to find this but started singing themselves and also making the student follow them blindly imitating the teacher. In this logical method of learning the student becomes able to sing creative and complex Swarakalpana along with brief Ragalapana hardly within only one year in Vocal and 2 yrs. in Violin. Since 2001 I have been training my students in this method very efficiently and successfully. If you are truly interested to follow this go through the following link in which the progress of my students has been furnished in chronological order. amsharma

AMS Jyothirmayi, Sai Meghana & Akhil:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Bwfx1O_rLu
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2515&p=343848#p343848

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

From rebel now you move on to creative. Being creative is being a rebel? So you are saying his enunciations are somewhat deliberate, intentional in trying out. But nobody has claimed any rAga has completely morphed. Some phrases added , hetherto not part of "lakshana" may be? Style variation comes from sAdhakam - trying out and lot of hard work as well. So we need to distinguish there.

Also because he had a graduate degree, and predecessors may not have had much of any or advanced education, there is a bit of bias attached in evaluating him, I feel!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

From rebel now you move on to creative. Being creative is being a rebel? So you are saying his enunciation is somewhat deliberate, intentional in trying out. But nobody has claimed any rAga has completely morphed. Some phrases added , hitherto not part of "lakshana" may be? Style variation comes from sAdhakam - trying out and lot of hard work as well. So we need to distinguish there.

Also because he had a graduate degree, and predecessors may not have had much of any or advanced education, there is a bit of bias attached in evaluating him, I feel!

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by msakella »

In my extensive research on the methods of learning (teaching) our music it has, beyond any doubt, been proved that present method of teaching is absolutely illogical and takes years of time to get the ability to sing creative music absolutely wasting the time, energy and money of the poor students and their parents as well. But, most unfortunately, none of our very highly egoistic and selfish Sangeeta Kalanidhis or Samrats or Padmashris who are mostly of performing perspective but not of teaching perspective at all, are not ready even to look into it or to sit and discuss to find a way out even for the benefit of our own kids. Any society can safely rely upon a noble teacher but not on a parasitical performer.

Yes, I relish to be a rebel while finding a logical ‘time-bound and result-oriented’ way in this process which enormously saves the time, energy and money of the students and their parents. In this method learning creative music very quickly in a time-bound plan is the criteria but not learning a number of compositions in a prolonged period of years. In our Telugu states we have been implementing this very efficiently and successfully. amsharma

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by shankarank »

Sri Akella gAru, I am elated to hear the nATTakurinji vaRNam rendered in triSram by your student. You found a way and have conviction in it, then you convince your senior disciples to adopt it. Anybody stopping you from what you do? Then why call it rebellion?

At the end of the day, it is the same material, a vaRNam in 3 speeds. And while I criticised musicians for not having given due importance to laya - that is after they have been successful musicians overall.

In the real old method, which is indeed time consuming, the Guru sings and students repeat. In some specific scenario, Gurus have not broken down what is wrong in student's singing, rather keep repeating what they know as right way to sing. 100 times will pass. They will proceed to next line, without telling the student why they are proceeding to the next line. No reasoning! Student will not know what version of what they sang is actually correct and why it is correct.

(Above is based on testimonies of two musicians generations apart).

You can see the seeds of manODharma in this as well. The student will have to practice after class to rediscover what is correct. And every version of singing that was done before the Guru moved on to next line, works its way into their manOdharma build up.

In many cases after a while, the students practice while Gurus have just heard them practice as well. This is after student has advanced. They will be corrected in some other opportunity.

It is great to see that you have a definite method. But you cannot rule out other ways.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

shankarank wrote: 12 Mar 2020, 18:34... But you cannot rule out other ways.
All roads lead to Rome !

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by arasi »

Whim? Harsh? nam (our man, woman)slant? All this and more, or none of the above make a vimarsanam.
Lexicons say: assessment, a critical appraisal, inspect for a second time (we do add to a review again, either to agree or disagree with the originator :)

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Vimarsanams

Post by msakella »

Interested persons can go through the above links of youtube and rasikas and get the needed information. amsharma

Post Reply