The REAL burning issue of CM: Mridangam

[shankarank]

What do you want T.Ranganathan to do, especially when he is playing for his elder cousins?

So you should read : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26387&p=291394&hili ... ma#p314562

ஒரு மிருதங்க சொல் விழாமல் ஒரு கமகம் உன் காதுக்கு போய்விடுமா ? பின்னால் நீ ஆலாபனை கேட்கலாம். ஆனால் முதலில் இதை கேட்கவேண்டும்!

https://youtu.be/_cmzirvDs2I?t=1809
Yup if it were Amir Khan or Rashid Khan - we will talk big!!! - Well we not only did NOT talk about brindamma - we also said mridangam is not music!

Music will come to full fruition when it becomes an exhibit in a museum - in curated spaces - next to Art Galleries - for the real cognoscenti - the real elite - where the gamaka as a piece of stone , instead of melting stones, will be on exhibit!

[arasi]

Here's an aside from a naRaiyuNDu, kuRaiyumuNDu (old and lacking in learning): this is just about that one word you've used. Strange, I've come across the word in the past few days with news about CM: 'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

[shankarank]

'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

Again when I use a word to criticize, don't take it that I am against the sense of contemporaneity that word implies, in terms of orderliness, sophistication, good presentation etc. If kids from America can come in, so can some of the practices of their place ( again I am not saying Indians otherwise did not know this themselves or from any other place)!

But don't denigrate the original source. Or belittle the parts of it. That is thievery!

Same point I will make it elsewhere in that context!

On the one hand rhythm is being taken out fused and appreciated, on the other melody is promoted exclusively as music and creativity is defined without looking at the whole thing together or some important underlying aspects - like the metaphysics of time etc.

[Sachi_R]

Ever since those two snide remarks about beating one's wife and beating one's step-son, the subject of feudal and misogynistic practices have been exercising my mind.

Somehow "beating the drum" seems to invoke the imagery of beating someone.

I also recalled the much debated chaupai of Saint Tulsidas in his Ramcharitmanas, which comes in Sundarkand:
ढोल गवार शूद्र पशु नारी सकल ताड़ना के अधिकारी!!

Literally, it means that the Dhol (=drum), illiterate idiot, the servant, the beast of burden and woman all deserve to be beaten.
Why did Tulsidas say it? I wonder. Of course some say that tadana is actually to be read as tarana or saving.

Anyway,
if a man raises his hand, as Kangana Ranaut says today, a woman will give it back with interest!

[kvchellappa]

That is 'interest'ing.

[Sachi_R]

To avoid any misunderstanding as to who said those words in Tulsi Ramayan, I produce below the actual page. That was said by the king of the ocean, when Rama threatened to dry him up lest he not give way to the army:

[Nick H]

Here's an aside from a naRaiyuNDu, kuRaiyumuNDu (old and lacking in learning): this is just about that one word you've used. Strange, I've come across the word in the past few days with news about CM: 'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

It's not carnatic, it's just that it has reached carnatic.

It is the new trendy word. Exhibitions, collections and museums have always been curated. That's where the word belongs. Now you will find that the selection at your local shop is curated, that a season of music concerts is curated... that the selection of veg st the greengrocer's is curated. It's just been adopted by the marketing-speak people. The new hype word.

It probably won't be long before The Hindu is curated, rather than edited. Consider the trend of serious newspaper becoming middle-class-spending food/travel/clothes magazine. That's "curated" for you. I blame Abraham.

(Yes, I know that The Hindu has to survive and somehow find ways to get the facebook generation to buy it)

[RSR]

curator is a word in standard usage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator
however, not all nouns can be used in their 'verbal' form. 'curate' may then be not right usage. as verb...but as a noun in an entirely different setting a priest of the lowest rank, especially in the Church of England, whose job is to help the vicar (= priest of a particular area)

[RSR]

'narai' I think refers to grey haired wisdom.( though even youngsters have 'narai' these days sans wisdom. .. kuRai .to deficiency.
I do not think, there is any word in tamil as 'naRai' ..Open to corrections by kyoto group.
https://www.ashtangayoga.info/sanskrit/ ... %20%0A%0A-

[Nick H]

curator is a word in standard usage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator

Yes, I knew that. Museums have always had them.

however, not all nouns can be used in their 'verbal' form.

"Verbing the noun" is anathema to many who are both more pedantic and more educated than I am. I would say that... it depends.

'curate' may then be not right usage. as verb...but as a noun in an entirely different setting a priest of the lowest rank, especially in the Church of England, whose job is to help the vicar (= priest of a particular area)

OK, so it's confession time. Yes, I know that the CofE has curates, although I could not tell you what they do. Being English, I have heard all those words from the CofE hierarchy, but not being christian, have little idea what they mean in practice. Better ask Shankarank. He'll tell us all about it from Abraham onwards By the way, it is pronounced CUREut rather than cureATE

Now what I have to confess is that I did not know that curate, in this context, is a "verbed nown." Google define gives only the churchman definition, so I took down Vol 1 of my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and confirmed that, indeed, there is no such what-a-curator-does verb as curate! A real pedant would say, "That word doesn't exist!"

Thanks!

But, actually, I don't mind the nouned verb. I mind the pseudo way in which it is used.

[shankarank]

but not being christian, have little idea what they mean in practice. Better ask Shankarank.

I can assure you that I used it in the most secular sense of the word - how it is used in modern times - in the enlightened art spaces.

I was completely oblivious to it's history in any religious tradition - I swear !

[RSR]

'Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language be it English or Tamil? Did not the Bard himself invent thousands of such words?.. I am today's Bard and will add words to the language at my will and pleasure. I will create 'verbiage' of nouns and will 'nounify' verbs as I like and many are there who like me ,like me. .. Writers should use very simple words known to me. They should not use words to make me look up for the meaning in either google..or oxford or whatever . I dont know the words and complex antithetic phrasing of that 'student journalist' and the little-known newspaper which publishes such trash which even an elementary school in England of my times will dismiss as such. " says the anti-pedant.( what will he do if he stumbles upon spiraling lovelies from Karl Marx? ) ( Silver-tongued Srinivasa Sastry used to have the Webster Dictionary as a constant companion as his 'GITA' . Dr.Pasupathy blog page will speak about it).http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.in/search/l ... 0%E0%AE%BF We demand the 'freedom' to kill at our will, even our own mother-tongue. . The Labour Govt removed Bard's plays from the curriculam . long back. as useless stuff fit only for pedants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a full-length portrait in England somewhere of Srinivasa Sastry honouring the man who taught the English , the correct pronunciation of King's English. ( we were not discussing pronunciation any way).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(an excerpt from wiki)
[Srinivasa Sastri was known for his mastery over the English language and his oratory.[citation needed] As a student, he once corrected a few passages in J. C. Nesfield's English Grammar.[citation needed] Whenever he was on visit to the United Kingdom, Sastri was often consulted over spellings and pronunciations.[citation needed] His mastery over the English language was recognized by King George V, Winston Churchill, Lady Lytton and Lord Balfour[3] who rated him amongst the five best English-language orators of the century.[6][29] The Master of Balliol, Arthur Lionel Smith swore that he had never realized the beauty of the English language until he heard Sastri.[29] while Lord Balfour remarked that listening to Srinivasa Sastri made him realise the heights to which the English language could rise.[3] Thomas Smart conferred upon Sastri the appellation "Silver Tongued Orator of the British Empire"[30] and he was so called all over the United Kingdom.[6] Srinivasa Sastri's inspirations were William Shakespeare, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot, John Stuart Mill, Thomas Harvey, Victor Hugo and Valmiki - Indian sage and the author of the Hindu epic Ramayana.]......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._S._Srinivasa_Sastri

[Nick H]

Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language

Nothing... when it is done with art, and everything when it is done with ignorance.

[shankarank]

Merriam Webster acknowledges this as a transitive verb as well:

curate
verb cu·rate \ ˈkyu̇r-ˌāt , ˈkyər- ; kyu̇-ˈrāt \
Definition of curate
curated; curating
transitive verb
:to act as curator of curate a museum an exhibit curated by the museum's director

A language has to expand its own verbs - but borrow nouns from other languages as the said people come into contact with ! Like the Juggernaut that little kindergartner uses in his NY Times article - borrowed from Jagannath. Once the source is forgotten, it has the potential to turn into a verb!

English's gravity viz-a-viz(spelling American;) other languages is due to such accretion isn't it?

[arasi]

Well, a new expression I am 'curating'?
We are tired of the hippopotamus rolling a pea. So, it is a kindergarten kid manning a juggernaut now--I mean, jagannatha's chariot--inverted image, of course...

[shankarank]

After H.G Wells, it is you who have used that tiresome phrase quite often in rasikas looks like

Well vAmana , grew into juggernaut rolling the world as a pea! So kind of all comes together mythically For the lord big things ( like the world ) are small matter - but for us some small matters are too big to handle!

[arasi]

I can say for myself: for small folks like me, these are big things to handle
Was it H.G. Wells who said it? I can't recollect. It was about Henry James's style, if this naRai niRaya maRandiDAdirundAl...if this grey-haired hasn't forgotten a lot of things

[kvchellappa]

Possibly, Nick is talking of English, and Webster's is about American. Americans turn nouns to verbs and verbs to nouns easily!
Webster's also talks of the word as connected with museum, the point Nick seems to be emphasising.
New words cannot be justified by the fact that a language develops by adding new words, just as we cannot advise having more children as that is the way life is continued. (I know of makkatselvam as a blessing).

[shankarank]

Americans are a young evolving culture , talkative - and not bound by too much etiquette! So goes their language!

Well language growth apart, you are missing the grave situation we are in which warrants these new words to express what is going on! They want to slander the concept of culture even while curating it into a museum

[shankarank]

I can say for myself: for small folks like me, these are big things to handle
Was it H.G. Wells who said it? I can't recollect. It was about Henry James's style, if this naRai niRaya maRandiDAdirundAl...if this grey-haired hasn't forgotten a lot of things

Oh you didn't know H.G Wells said it! Too bad, I also didn't and I also only vaguely remember something about H.G Wells , like T.S Elliot - only just vague names - just as I remember my fellow IIT preparers listening to Michael Jackson in Madurai jogging at 2 AM, still I didn't know the difference between rock and pop even well into the U.S life. Though I didn't hear a word about Ramnad krishnan either when Ramnad is only some 50 miles away. In fact I may not have come across H.G Wells at all, it's just a name that rings with those names in English textbooks that I totally forgot by 12th grade! Same with Henry James!

They didn't curate me enough - illENA ippaDiyellam pEsuvEna (will I be talking like this?)

[RSR]

Nick H » 17 Nov 2017, 02:12
" Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language"
Nothing... when it is done with art, and everything when it is done with ignorance.

=====================================================
.'says the anti-pedant." Satire lost on some people?
====================================================
"Mr. Sastry did not speak English as an Englishman would do. But he spoke it as it ought to be spoken."
Rt. Hon’ble Srinivas Sastry’s speeches took the English men by storm: They listened to his speeches in rapt attention. Under his portrait in Guild Hall of London, the following lines were written:

‘Here is an Indian who taught English to English men!
http://www.yabaluri.org/Web%20(1978%20- ... ul2004.htm

[RSR]

Silver Tongued Srinivasa Sastry.. by K. Gopalakrishna Murthy
some excerpts... "The telephone rang in the hotel room of the Rt.Hon. V.S.Srinivasa Sastry in 1921. The voice at the other end was that of Mr. Bilderbeck – the British principal of the Government Training College, Kumbakonam, when as a young man Sastry was his student. It was a pleasant surprise for Mr. Sastry to meet his former Principal, while it was no less a pleasant affair for Mr. Bilderbeck that his erstwhile student had been honoured with the Freedom of the City of London.
Mr. Bilderbeck got up a little function in honour of Mr. Sastry. On that occasion Mr. Bilderbeck recalled a very touching incident when Mr. Sastry was his student. The only dress he could afford was a towel with which he attended the class. On a rainy day Sastry’s towel got wet. The strict disciplinarian in Mr. Bilderbeck imposed on Sastry a fine of Eight Annas. Where upon Sastry with tears in his eyes begged the Principal to say how he was to pay the fine of Eight Annas when he could not buy a new shirt which would cost him only six Annas.
A few hours later Mrs. Bilderbeck found her husband in his study praying to God to forgive him for the imposition of fine on poor Sastry. Mrs. Bilderbeck advised the disciplinarian to remit the fine himself which he did, and as the story goes, gave Sastry a new shirt, too.
After relating this incident the Bilderbecks Expressed their profound joy that this shirt-less “SRINIVASAN” blossomed into the Rt. Hon. V. S. Srinivasan Sastry, a member of the British Privy Council and a free man of the City of London.
Such was the grinding poverty and chill penury Sastry suffered as student. On one occasion Sastry said his mother had to decline a gift of Mangoes as she had no money enough to purchase salt and pickle it. How unbelievable it is to a modern student well placed in cosy comfort and sheltering ease; what it was to suffer poverty."
http://www.yabaluri.org/Web%20(1978%20- ... ul2004.htm

[RSR]

"In Tamil culture, it is called a tannumai.The earliest mention of the mridangam in Tamil literature is found perhaps in the Sangam literature where the instrument is known as 'tannumai'. The word "Mridangam" is Sandhi or union of the two Sanskrit words mŗt (clay or earth) and anga (limb), as early Mridangam were made of hardened clay.......'In ancient Hindu sculpture, painting, and mythology, the mridangam is often depicted as the instrument of choice for a number of deities including Ganesha (the remover of obstacles) and Nandi, who is the vehicle and follower of Shiva. Nandi is said to have played the mridangam during Shiva's primordial tandava dance, causing a divine rhythm to resound across the heavens. The mridangam is thus also known as "Deva Vaadyam," or "Divine Instrument".
During the post-Sangam period, as mentioned in the epic Silappadikaram (சிலப்பதிகாரம்), it formed a part of the antarakoṭṭu (அந்தரக்கொட்டு)[5][6] - a musical ensemble at the beginning of dramatic performances that would later develop into Bharathanatyam.[7] The player of this instrument held the title tannumai aruntozhil mutalvan (தண்ணுமை அருந்தொழில் முதல்வன்).[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mridangam

[Nick H]

RSRm walls of text neither contribute to discussions nor do they win arguments. They get scrolled past. But at least you have come back to the mridangam, and the "old chestnut" that it was once made of clay.

I'm glad that Miriam Webster recognises the verb curate and surprised that Google, at least on the first page doesn't. I think it's a good one. As long as it us not used as hype.

[RSR]

RSR walls of text share information. unpalatable to a few. ..and do not aim to 'win' any arguments.

[Nick H]

RSR walls of text share information

In colour too!

But... you did tell me something I didn't know about the word curate

[arasi]

A curious curate from a humble parish
Sailed the seas to see the world--
Landed in Chennai, learned mridangam,
And ended up as a curator of drums

Nick, you came much later, when BhArath came as Vidya Bhavan to good old England and you could learn to play percussion

[shankarank]

"Mr. Sastry did not speak English as an Englishman would do. But he spoke it as it ought to be spoken."

So he essentially Sanskritized the English - the much hated concept . What do you expect of a Sastri?

But those of Sheldon Pollock and such - who blame the Brahmins of yore for using the complex un-understandable Sanskrit to literarize ( spell checker failed ) and subsequently aestheticize (spell checker failed again ) power and lord over the masses - write in such a complex English - it takes a person who lived in the U.S. to break through it. By the way they claim they know Sanskrit better and want to translate classics for the Indian/World reader ( charles dickenize it - again I have not read Charles Dickens either - but quoting Rohan Murthy from an NDTV interview).

Our socialogists who dot the JNUs, the DUs and the TISS - consume this koolaid and unleash it in IAS exam questions!

But back to the topic: From Mridangam to language and then to poetry - here is for you, the strange cyclical loop - Ouroboros that surrounds Nataraja : https://youtu.be/McMgRmVYBxM?t=385 back to tatarigidatom - the full evolutionary cycle of Humans and their language!

So if mrt+angam etc were all there - ( you can watch a youtube - link in an old thread in Layam forum from Sri Rajamani - son of Palghat Mani Iyer) - PMI tried all of them. So it is not the physical sound or form of the instrument - you can curate the instrument and it's history as much as you want - but its indeed the metaphysics of it that transcends time!

And that essentially has to pass from Guru to Sishya with bone observation and bone action! Hope any international school of arts that they want to fund using UNESCO tag, don't remove that sacred element from it!

[sureshvv]

It would help people greatly if RSR would make the post relevant to the title of the thread, or just start a new thread. Srinivasa Sastry's life experiences should merit its own thread.

[Nick H]

I can take any thread in any forum off topic in a post or two. I particularly specialise in turning them into discussion about boats and the sea. On one forum, this even got a name (creating language), futtocking as in this thread is now futtocked. This is born of futtock shrouds, part of the rigging of a sailing boat. With a little craft (ahem, no pun actually intended, but hey, why not!), we turned the word into something sounding a bit rude, essentially telling that the thread is now beyond repair. I'm an expert at this. But on this forum I feel like a mere beginner!

I was a poor music student. I continue to be a terrible failure as a language student. But I will continue to beat the drum about the aesthetics of both. Because art is socialist, so... we all can. Sure, the usefulness of our comments may be related to our individual experience and knowledge... but even the knowledgeable can go astray.

[kvchellappa]

Nick, you have faintly connected it to the topic (drum) and so failed in digressing!

[Nick H]

Sometimes I can do that too. I may not be able to count, but have been known to arrive at samum!

[RSR]

@104..vvsuresh-> I am not particularly interested in the 'thaalam' aspect of CM and kutcheris.. In the first 100 posts in this thread, my entry was at 83 about the usage of the word 'curating' which sounded strange.( not only to me...to @77 also) and I shared my view. From 77 to 100, the entries have been exchanges about the usage of that word by Nickm and 'related' perceptions. I have not actually counted ( I am counting now...my entries are just 7 out of 107 and the last 4 are more or less contiguous (83,84,87,....96,97,98,100)) but my entries in this thread were not about the 'percussion instrument under discussion. One party ( the initiator with picture of the instrument and all) blames the performers and another party blames the acoustics and technology. ( to me , not a concert-goer, it matters very little ). My only interest in this thread was about the 'verbifying' a noun. Yankee English is different from British English and till a few decades back , it was King's English ( or if you prefer Queen's English now) that was standard. My preference obviously is for King's English. and the topic of Srinivasa Sastry is quite relevant while discussing proper English usage. Moreover, even if the American practice permits in grammar, good style demands that we avoid 'ugly' usages. Even for reference, ( for some)it is Henry James and T.S.Eliot ( both from USA but protagonists of English way of thinking than the American). Even approval and admiration from Winston Churchill is not comparable to approval from a post 1990 yankee-hippie marauding as scholar. to some 'natural-born yankee'. .Not all people from Tamilnad speak proper Tamil and like 'hackneyed ', madras tamil is well known. .I was wondering if the name of the said percussion instrument had something to do with 'mrudhu ' मुदु (soft) Perhaps it has. but the wiki relates it to 'clay' first and 'bone' next. I thought it worthwhile to give a link to the wiki page, to bring the thread back to its starting point . http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mod ... &direct=es
I wonder if Purandaradasa and the trinity had mridangam accompaniment!. Raga Alaapanaa and vrutthams have no role for any percussion instrument. There are separate sections for Ragam , Layam and a few of my posts are in threads related to translation of some lyrics and clarification and information about the ragam of a few songs. I have scrupulously avoided rambling exchanges. . Smileys and such are meant for mute people. like the cavemen who did not know how else to communicate. Links are bad enough as our admin points out but links to tube are worse. Why not give a synopsis and then the link if needed.? I request that transliteration of 'naRai' be corrected. It should be 'narai' only.And the quote from Thulasidas Ramayana was definitely obtrusive abusive, offensive and uncouth. . Let us meet again in someother thread later.

[shankarank]

The mridangist in the MLv concert was R. Ramesh and the so called rowdy Rasika is Ravisri. I was also there in the concert.

Well well well..., finally RR ended up playing for Chingelpet Ranganathan , who was singing Purandaradasa for the Kannada sangha ! - when nobody would be interested in creativity. At least the love of language of certain people, gave them a chance to occupy the stage.

Neither Chingelpet could execute his niche manOdharma, nor Ramesh could bang his Mridangam ( I mean play an effective tani, having not warmed up enough due to the nature of the songs!) , only to blame the over-cooled auditorium @ IITM CLT for his Mridangam going off Sruti before starting his tani! With not enough warm bodies to absorb the chill, but few souls to listen to soulful renditions!

So the man from Chingelpet who could not bring his Manaodharmam to Guindy! We have to wait until the concert moves from tAmbaram station to cengarpaTTU station for what is left of CM to reach back!

[kvchellappa]

Instead of beating the mrdangam too much, let us keep to 'curate'!
What about this usage?
"The FEA-curated CROSSROADS festival featured the marvellous young Karnatic vocalist Amritha Murali as the opening artiste on Day 2."

[Nick H]

What about this usage?

AFSHEB.

(arty-farty pseudo hype ego boost)

It is not enough to be an organiser any longer. Those people want to be curators.

I have plenty of respect for organisers, those who bring us the concerts day after day, year after year. I don't respect this ego bloat. Maybe they think the young are more likely to attend concerts which are curated. I doubt it very much.

Instead of beating the mrdangam too much, let us keep to 'curate'!

It is sadly fashionable to beat the mridangists. That is not to say that they are all without fault. Sachi's comments, which I original slightly misunderstood, are a valid basis for conversation.

All art is subject to criticism and nobody is immune. No reason not to name names. Those who disagree with adverse criticism can always offer other opinions.

[kvchellappa]

How about this?
"A.Word.A.Day
with Anu Garg
We are born, we grow, and we die. Something similar happens with words.
Someone gestates an idea in the womb of his mind and then delivers it in the form of a word. This begetting of a word is known as coining.
With time a word grows up. It changes its values. It appears in a new hairstyle or gets a new religion. OK, maybe not that, but it changes its spelling, meaning, or pronunciation. Sometimes all three.
This is difficult for many people to accept. They are used to looking at a word in a certain way and do not appreciate when it appears in a new garb. Words can die too. We call such words obsolete."

[rshankar]

Letters are "akshara" (unalterable/immutable), while words can and do mutate freely.

[Nick H]

How about this?

It's a longer, prettier, version, of "Language evolves." And it often devolves, as I may already have said, at the hand of ignorant usage. Pretty words are not an excuse for ignorance.

[sureshvv]

Letters are "akshara" (unalterable/immutable), while words can and do mutate freely.

In this context, the connotation is of indivisibility/atomicity rather than immutability.

[kvchellappa]

After Sri Sivaramakrishnan also used 'curated', I looked up and Oxford dictionary has this entry:

curate2
VERB

[WITH OBJECT]
1Select, organize, and look after the items in (a collection or exhibition)
‘both exhibitions are curated by the Centre's director’
More example sentences
1.1 Select the performers or performances that will feature in (an arts event or programme)
‘in past years the festival has been curated by the likes of David Bowie’
More example sentences
1.2 Select, organize, and present (online content, merchandise, information, etc.), typically using professional or expert knowledge.
‘people not only want to connect when using a network but they also enjoy getting credit for sharing or curating information’
‘a curated alternative to the world's most popular video portal’

[shankarank]

From Ancient Tamizh history this comes close:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desikar

The name pandarathar means valuable storing place of jewels, navarathnas stored in the temples and palaces, they are placed to maintain the jewels of temples and palaces. They are Land holders, Traders, Sanyasis (monk), Priests (guru) and Managers of richly endowed temples.

Etymology explained in an youtube video I watched: panDu - pazhaiya (old) Aram ( pAdukAval). pazhaiya sottukaLai pAdukAppavar. ( One who takes care of antiquities).

We have made that term, derogatory and removed the music from there. It is headed to the new curates!

Much of that kainkaryam was executed by people to whom we sing peons finding their names in songs!

They removed the jewels from temples. We are busy removing them from our Women!

[sankark]

From Ancient Tamizh history this comes close:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desikar

The name pandarathar means valuable storing place of jewels, navarathnas stored in the temples and palaces, they are placed to maintain the jewels of temples and palaces. They are Land holders, Traders, Sanyasis (monk), Priests (guru) and Managers of richly endowed temples.

Etymology explained in an youtube video I watched: panDu - pazhaiya (old) Aram ( pAdukAval). pazhaiya sottukaLai pAdukAppavar. ( One who takes care of antiquities).

We have made that term, derogatory and removed the music from there. It is headed to the new curates!

பண்டறத்தார் (paNdu + aRaththAr, aram would be a misspelling, it has to be aRam?) or பண்டாரத்தார்? I know, it is a totally pedantic query, but then the devil lies in details And totally unconnected to the subject anyways.

[shankarank]

And totally unconnected to the subject anyways.

That is too late a discovery

[shankarank]

அரண்
Araṇ

Bulwark

bulwark
அரண்
acropolis
அரண், பாதுகாப்புடைய நகரம் (அ) குன்று
stronghold
அரண், கோட்டை
donjon
அரண், வலிமைமிக்க கோட்டை
trenchant
கடினமான, அரண், சுருக்கென்ற

It could be from that!