The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

[ram1999]

I guess the easiest thing that krishna could do is sto start singing "surangani Surangani surangani malu kanna vaa ...." the dapankuthu song in his concerts in place of the varnam which will start attracting the kuppam people, his target audience for inclusiveness and CM to sustain for years to come.

And also he should stop singing songs which have been composed by the bhramin community as he is in a anti bhramin tirade !!

[CRama]

The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.
The second thing to place aboard outside his concert- ENTRY FOR NON BRAHMINS ONLY.
The third thing should to teach only non brahmins.

[ratanabhinav]

If his guru SSI had been alive today , what would have he said on seeing THIS !!!

[ratanabhinav]

HIS possible songlist during " eri kuppam " dec fest this year :
#1 surangani - followed by vedikka vedikka vEdikkaiyana kalpanaswaram , thani avarthanam
#2 poramboku - ragamalika
#3 thanam in 6 ragas
#3 a popular ' eri - kuppam esque ' film song tuned in those ragas
#4a alapana , thanam
#4b * something shocking and extremely controversial number with outrageous lyrics mostly in local and highly unchaste Tamil , unexpected and unwarranted * niraval , kalpanaswraam
#5 a speech
#6 solo violin

[ratanabhinav]

some marked points to note about the above concert are :
#1 viruththams , lyrics are all in local Tamil slang
#2 speech is also made in local slang Tamil
#3 alapana not sung using ' thadarina ' and akaras and ikaras as usual , but with eri kuppam slang sounds
#4 laya in the above concert resembles the laya of the fisherfolk songs .

[ram1999]

https://youtu.be/Ms4PnUHxzIk His mannerisms are more akin to Pappu.

[sureshvv]

The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.

You must be kidding. Without the super brahmin by his side, he is a baby in the woods

The second thing to place aboard outside his concert- ENTRY FOR NON BRAHMINS ONLY.

May be if he provides urur famous dabba kanji as welcome drink.

[shankarank]

It is appalling how we stoop to such levels when he has made only rhetorical diatribes against the community. We surreptitiously bring in some axiomatic consistency and hypocriticism from modern intellectualism and Christianity/Western methods to make the argument.

This from a country that handled contradictions galore! We are schooled in the "English" education system - what else can we expect of ourselves!

[prabuddha]

CM concert traditions seem to have hummed and hawed for a while, then compromised with it for political expediency.

Cynical conclusion. The fact is that many quality tamil compositions were tuned by many vidwans/vidhushis to enable them for the Carnatic concert.

Complete rubbish. How many Tamil compositions are there for which CM artistes do RTP. It's statistically insignificant. The fact remains that Tamil songs jostle for space in the Tukkada section with Kannada (devaranama) and Marathi (Abhang). Even in the 20th century, CM masters composed varnams in Telugu which are faithfully being sung even now.

Now we have Tamil compositions in the 'tukkada' section of the concert. Phew. what a scornful designation! The concert is back to its good old Thanjavur ways.

Seems like you are stuck under a rock somewhere. Look up the Concert Reviews forum.

See above.

But if someone like TMK holds up a mirror, it's necessary not to put on blinders immediately and pronounce that all's well with us and it's only the mirror that's dark.

Sure. But TMK is holding up the mirror to people's rear ends. Not necessary.

Does Brahminhood shine from one's rear end? Your comment is absurd, saar!

[sureshvv]

Actually it does. So stop looking.

Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.

[prabuddha]

Actually it does. So stop looking.

This is actually offensive!!

[sureshvv]

Not intended. Your checking on people's caste is both offensive & dangerous.

[prabuddha]

Actually it does. So stop looking.

Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.

It seems you'll permit every other topic as worthwhile i.e., music, philosophy, status and other aspects. Why are you then so sensitive about the caste angle? We're discussing TMK's pronouncements which spells out 'Brahmin' and 'caste'. So how can you discuss this without the original terms used by TMK? Do you want us all to say 'Siva Siva' and block our ears? Even if I agree with you, it's there like a standing reproach.

The 'Siva Siva' attitude didnt get the Brahmins anywhere in the slower world of newspaper, drama and cinema. Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?

Humbly yours,

[MaheshS]

Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?

CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more

[prabuddha]

Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?

CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more

OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

Humbly yours,

[MaheshS]

Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?

CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more

OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

Humbly yours,

*You* asked where it would get them in the new world of social media on mobile phones. Maybe you should start wording things so people other than you can understand what you mean?

[sureshvv]

All this wallowing in muck, making wild baseless accusations, suggesting sinister & morbid motives without a single constructive actionable item.

You guys need some serious counselling to repair the damage done to your world view.

[shankarank]

The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.

You must be kidding. Without the super brahmin by his side, he is a baby in the woods

Is she fully of brahmin descent?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 284997.ece

Have we made an M.S. Subbalakshmi out of her already??

[sureshvv]

Oh geez... I was talking about his accompanist musical backbone

[shankarank]

Sometimes too darn difficult to dissect the figurative. If people complain of my epic posts, your one liners on the other side cryptic too!

Anyways my response is partial (half) to CRama - figuratively

[prabuddha]

CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more

OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

Humbly yours,

*You* asked where it would get them in the new world of social media on mobile phones. Maybe you should start wording things so people other than you can understand what you mean?

Did you recently graduate from Plus 2?

[shankarank]

TMK's latest response: http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/12/0 ... m-krishna/

His argument seems to be: If MSS became popular through Meera, and not through her musical talent - it is fair game to use her story to popularize a different view!

[RSR]

@147-> Smt.MS was a huge hit in Mahamaham festival concert at Kumbakonam as early as 1936. ( she was 20 then).The music festival was organized by Director Subramanyam. . She did not become popular because of Tamil Meera film. Her first film was in 1938. ( Seva Sadhanam) having some glorious songs like Shyama Sundara, Maa Ramanan , Maa dhayai nidhi etc. Her second film was in 1940. ( Sakunthalai-Kalidasa's Sakunthalam) produced by Sri.Sadasivam. The film had about 18 songs , 14 of them , solos by Smt.MSS Sadasivam.. She had got married then and had retired from acting in films ( she was 24 then). When Kalki and Sadasivam got sacked from Ananda Vikatan by SS Vasan, they started the Kalki magazine and to raise funds, Sri.Sadasivam produced Savithri film ( Sathyavan Savithri). The heroine was not MS but Santha Apte. MS acted as Naradahar and sang 4 wonderful songs among them the immortal Bruhi Mukundethi of Sadasiva Brammendram . Meera film was released in 1945 only. and had 18 wonderful songs set to music by S.V.Venkataraman mostly in ragams common to CM and HM. Great lyrics, Great tunes, Great acting . but actually it was not much of a box-office hit in tamilnad. ( Haridas and MKT were leading!).Smt MS 's final film was Meera remake in Hindi ( 1947). .. MS did not become famous because of Meera. Her singing and the theme ( so much similar to Kothai AndaaL of Tamilnad) blended to enrich everything. It is a spiritual experience. There is no CM without Bakthi movement. TMK is blabbering.

[ramamatya]

Sure. But TMK is holding up the mirror to people's rear ends. Not necessary.

Actually it does. So stop looking.

Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.

Ugly and offensive posts. Mod - consider deleting such posts/banning the members who write so offensively.

[shankarank]

TMK is blabbering.

He wants "thematic" justice ( I know that may be a technical term - but using it loosely here to mean equal treatment to all themes!), semantic justice (again may be a technical term, equal treatment of all meanings!) and social justice ( equal treatment of all classes of people).

We must remember, he is making this demand at large to a community of people - which may be flawed. The community of people can also be informal association of people.

The reason I am bringing up that is because of this:

There is no CM without Bakthi movement.

Bhakti is fine - if that is how you want to have it. But I have a problem with the "Movement" part. In India pursuit of anything spiritual is adhyAtmic - one has to seek it for oneself. Again I am not getting into "religion" is a private affair kind of argument - which itself is silly - the very definition, tenets and functioning of religions is anything but private. They are all political!

Once you make it a "Movement" - if it is a loose collaboration of people that is one thing!. Moment it becomes bigger - it is in political realm. Then when it translates into an institutions all questions raised by TMK are fair game!

Here is where Chomsky's pronouncements start operating. Morality applies to individuals. Institutions have to obey the law and operate within the legal framework! So an institution cannot take too much of a Moral position except some limited code of conduct expectation that allows the smooth functioning of the institution without affecting it's purpose ( specified in the articles of association)!

Case in point: MA cannot take a position on TN Rajaratnam Pillai's habits and deny him his due status as a musician! Moreover, when it happens that they allowed a musician of another community with such issues to be treated differently, then that is a legitimate case of discrimination! It is legitimate because you are an institution registered under the law!

TNR inspite of his habits was respected in the kamalalayam, in what was a dharmic society, playing 4 hour hemavati etc.

Again I stated this as an example - without knowing the actual happenings and reasons!

[arasi]

Just as TMK never stops, we don't either, to the point we might be inspiring him to spout more
Soon, we may all be needing group therapy It's like this: instead of diverting a child or ignoring it when it starts one of its tantrums, we are doing the opposite. He 'inspires' us poetically too--ask Ponbhairavi et al!
Difficult as it is, ignoring seems to be the best solution, at least for now, if I can do that

[sureshvv]

His argument seems to be: If MSS became popular through Meera, and not through her musical talent - it is fair game to use her story to popularize a different view!

As RSR shows, MS was very popular much before Meera. Then what is TMK talking about?
It must be MS's pan-India, Bharat Ratna type of popularity. And that is the audience that TMK is targeting.

So this must be his strategy to broadbase his appeal - from a 50% successful musician and crank personality known only to the Carnatic world to a thoughtful and analytical social commentator. These commentaries are not for our consumption at all.

[Anusha]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

[ram1999]

Just as TMK never stops, we don't either, to the point we might be inspiring him to spout more
Soon, we may all be needing group therapy It's like this: instead of diverting a child or ignoring it when it starts one of its tantrums, we are doing the opposite. He 'inspires' us poetically too--ask Ponbhairavi et al!
Difficult as it is, ignoring seems to be the best solution, at least for now, if I can do that

A typical pappan (bhraminic) approach to let anyone talk ill of anything or do any nonsense. Best would be to ignore it !!
This has been the major drawback for us being treated like this and we do not need enemies when we have krishnas who do more damage to the community !!

[ram1999]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

what is unfortunate ?? and who is insecure or trying to escape ?? Krishna has had no decency to provide a clarification yet on whatever garbage that he has written or spoken !!! I guess you should divert your concerns towards krishna and not against those who are condemning what has been said or written !!

[arasi]

Well, if being born a pAppAthi is your grouse against me, so be it Sect and race haven't been my concern all through my long life. These threads are entangling us as rasikAs (whatever our origins) more than freeing us from the negativity that TMK generates.It may or may not be his intention, but we are falling for it--that's my feeling now. If it's any consolation, Tamizh poetry thread has some of our verses on this subject...

[sureshvv]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

Good to see that you are in perfect agreement with the spewing part.

[sankark]

I thought that was where all this started.

Perhaps I am dodgy ground here. Plainly I am not a member of the community which TMK irks on a regular basis, so tell me to keep my mouth shut... Fair enough.

But it seems to me... Do Not Feed The Troll!

Typical 'divide and rule' Brit

Ha ha. In things music, Nick is no true blood brit I think.

That's pretty offensive. And, what does that say about the "divided and ruled" populace?

[kvjayan]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

[Ponbhairavi]

deleted

[ram1999]

Well, if being born a pAppAthi is your grouse against me, so be it Sect and race haven't been my concern all through my long life. These threads are entangling us as rasikAs (whatever our origins) more than freeing us from the negativity that TMK generates.It may or may not be his intention, but we are falling for it--that's my feeling now. If it's any consolation, Tamizh poetry thread has some of our verses on this subject...

I doubt if anybody is falling for krishna's rants. All that i am saying is one need not be so highly diplomatic and submissive to what others say and trying to be just not bothered !! Condemning a wrong approach is a must, else this will spiral into a bigger issue / problem. As it is we have several and these add fuel to the fire !!

And no grouse against you being born a pAppathi. I myself am a pAppan

[sureshvv]

What is interesting is that the very same arguments were made and resulted in caste based reservations in colleges and universities, including for post-graduate education. Not many made a noise and we were happy to let things deteriorate to the miserable state it is in today.

But when it comes to Carnatic Music, we get riled up about it and are ready to make our opinions be known loudly.

Looks like we have our priorities

[arasi]

I have condemned it enough, so have others. Any results? I have been least diplomatic in this case, really By the way, diplomacy can help here and there when tempers flare...
Why should the music we all profess to love suffer and go off our ken because of this rabble-rouser? He eschews the season, fine. Should we be shadowed by his malevolence towards it? That's why I feel it's a good thing to put him on hold for a while...

[Anusha]

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

Nope.
(Apologies, I just realized that on my earlier post #90, I had shared some other link instead of this one below)
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/m ... ide-72517

Nrithya Pillai’s post highlights the real issues clearly. I appreciate her confidence, maturity, and clarity of thought and expression.

At the onset, let me clarify that I don’t subscribe to all the views of TM Krishna. But, I truly believe that he has been raising profound
questions with conviction (over the last few years) for all of us (organizers, artistes, rasikas) to think over.

Well, just as everyone else, the passion for Carnatic music brings me to this forum. My knowledge of music is very limited. I listen to
a lot of different artistes in live concerts and recordings. And, I feel grateful to all of them. I am trying to learn vocal music,
in order to become a better rasika. I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

1. The Madras Quartet – Indira Menon (Also had the privilege of meeting her in Delhi, and hearing her thoughts on Carnatic music)
2. Balasaraswati - her Art and life – Douglas Knight
3. The Devadasi and the Saint – V. Sriram
4. A Southern Music – T.M. Krishna

The questions raised by TM Krishna are:

• The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

• How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

And here is some background and some of my reflections on the first point:

• Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art. As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

• In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

• Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

• Some organizers, and artistes maybe already putting in efforts to address these. Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

• Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

[ram1999]

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

Nope.
(Apologies, I just realized that on my earlier post #90, I had shared some other link instead of this one below)
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/m ... ide-72517

Nrithya Pillai’s post highlights the real issues clearly. I appreciate her confidence, maturity, and clarity of thought and expression.

At the onset, let me clarify that I don’t subscribe to all the views of TM Krishna. But, I truly believe that he has been raising profound
questions with conviction (over the last few years) for all of us (organizers, artistes, rasikas) to think over.

Well, just as everyone else, the passion for Carnatic music brings me to this forum. My knowledge of music is very limited. I listen to
a lot of different artistes in live concerts and recordings. And, I feel grateful to all of them. I am trying to learn vocal music,
in order to become a better rasika. I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

1. The Madras Quartet – Indira Menon (Also had the privilege of meeting her in Delhi, and hearing her thoughts on Carnatic music)
2. Balasaraswati - her Art and life – Douglas Knight
3. The Devadasi and the Saint – V. Sriram
4. A Southern Music – T.M. Krishna

The questions raised by TM Krishna are:

• The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

• How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

And here is some background and some of my reflections on the first point:

• Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art. As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

• In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

• Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

• Some organizers, and artistes maybe already putting in efforts to address these. Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

• Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

If this Krishna fights against Sabhas and influential musicians who control the sabhas to ensure fair opportunity is given to deserving musicians and musicians are recognised timely, that will perhaps help in sustainability and inclusiveness of CM !!

[kvjayan]

"How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?"

By trying to do something quiet, constructive over a period of time and reduce mindless Tambram bashing (beating a dead creature repeatedly will get only headlines in left-liberal rags).

[ramamatya]

Puppet TMK is overdoing the beaten path, the anti-brahmin stance. Its always easy to resort to Brahmin bashing like Bollywood making fun of Tamilians. Maybe Arasi is right. Best to ignore and not feed the attention seeking, tantrum throwing kid.

[Ponbhairavi]

Transliteration of my post in tamil section.

Madhi niRaiyum nannAL ??;thirupaLLiyezhuchi.

mAdhangaLil nAn mArgazhi yenrAr krishnar
bEdham inri chennaiyil sandhu pondhellAm nal
geedham isaikkudhadA nandhalAlA.un thiranil
pAdhi kUda illAdhavargaLukkum pathukku mEl kutcheri.
kAdhil panjai gettiyAi adaithukondu
Kadhavaiyum sAthikondu poy thUkkam (thukkam )yEn ?

isai veesai yenna vilai yena kEtkum katchigal
nAsathukkE vazhi sollum nambividAdhE.avargal
nEsam un mooLaiyai salavai seydhu vidum. ushAr.
mOsadi virudhugal kadathapadum kuzhandhaiku tharum chocolate.
dhEsa adutha janAdhipathi namma Al dhAn appo ippo
lesAga kai nazhuviya bharat ratna unakuthAn - M S ku inai yena
Asai kAtti pEsi mayakkubavargal vEsigal pOl
sAsuvadhathai unaku tharakkUdiyadhu un vasam uLLa
Isai selvam mattum dhAn.idhaiyE nambu.

kuLiyal aRai mEl kobithu kondu poRamboku , kuppam ,vayal
veLI yenRu pOvadhAl kuLiyal aRaiku nashtamillai.

Yel jI perungAya dappA vegu nAL thirandhu kidandhAl vAsam pOividum
Nalla dhOr vEENaiseydhE adhai nalangeda puzhudhiyil eRivadhundO?

piLLAy ezhundhirAy innum yenna pEr uRakkam?
uLLam magizha kUdi isai pAdelO rembAvAi.

[sureshvv]

I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

You are reading the wrong books

May I suggest some books that would be more informative?

1. Great Composers by Prof. Sambamoorthy
2. History of South Indian (Carnatic Music), R.Rangaramanuja Ayyangar
3. Sangeeta Ratnakaram, Same author
4. The Splendour of South Indian Music. Dr. P.T.Chelladurai

The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

Don't you see the obvious fallacy in this question? If we are going to make Carnatic music truly inclusive, should we be asking for opportunities by community?

Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art.

I don't think so. The art has remained. The talented ones moved to music and theatre.

As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

This is so wrong headed. A "descendant" of an artiste won't automatically be an artiste. You are actually being casteist when you make these assumptions.

In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

So the same academy that gave out 4 SK's to members of the family are not giving them performance slots. And you think they are automatically entitled? I cannot disagree that they are doing a great job of propagating art. But that is not what slots are given for.

Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

And may help you to correct your perspective.

Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

Yes. We should not bother/wonder about the ancestors/descendants of any artiste. We should be able to appreciate them for their art.

[shankarank]

A reasonably high ticket price will promote inclusiveness and keep out non serious listeners. So it is a question of economic progress of various castes then!

For the economically weak , there are alternative forums where music can spread, like the Ayodhya Mandapams and Urur Olcott and the Temples!

Listeners who just walk in with free passes provided by sponsors - have not been very impressive. But the so called usual CM listeners were no better were they? How we pickup mobile calls with no compunction!

Also if a musician is able to sense the nature of the sadas and adjust his/her music, by the same reasoning the musician can do a bit of lecture about a pallavi they intend to perform and perform it. So music of high order can reach more people.

We have developed this snobbish attitude towards speeches due to our elders public speech that did not keep pace with times. It reflects the same ritualistic pattern!

One insider once complained , if I go to Nanganallur to listen to music, the same SVK comes there also and gives his talk!

Well I am now this snobbish sophisticate who derides the elders! And a snobbish NRI with vested interest who is trying to monopolize access to Sabhas to people of my ilk! Oh Well!

[shankarank]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30217#p325913

So based on that at various times ( depending how you construct the citadels of what classical CM is - based on your surveys) - the people who had entry barriers would include , MSS, Muttusvami Dikshitar, People like Somu, and later on people like TNS. You can also throw in OVK, Purandaradasa but that is a debatable one. Andal had a smooth entry due to the heavyweights that worked for her cause!

This is nothing to do with how much Crowd was there. That way for example MDR did not have such barriers. He may not be recognized due to politics , that is something else.

A Particular anecdote on TNS would include, couple of old timers outside the MFAC who would converse about , "what is this bur-bur in vAtApi itself?" Years later when all his virtuosity vanished - TNS and his son would get a Standing Ovation (of a different era!) in MFAC!

They were all to some level Nandanars! They might have had some big people ( equivalent of the Lord himself) by their side. But they did have barriers.

So this definition of classicism is not quite elitist. It sounds like more a pickiness of being raised in a bed of roses, nothing to do with the silver spoon.

[Anusha]

You are reading the wrong books

May I suggest some books that would be more informative?

1. Great Composers by Prof. Sambamoorthy
2. History of South Indian (Carnatic Music), R.Rangaramanuja Ayyangar
3. Sangeeta Ratnakaram, Same author
4. The Splendour of South Indian Music. Dr. P.T.Chelladurai

Many Thanks for your suggestions. I will surely try to read these books. 'Wrong books' - didn't get that ?

As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

This is so wrong headed. A "descendant" of an artiste won't automatically be an artiste. You are actually being casteist when you make these assumptions.

Agree, that a descendant may not be an artiste. Let me clarify this a little more. I was having potential areas of research in mind.
Let's take for example Mylapore Gowri ammal. If we could trace any descendant / disciple who has learnt from her, then it will be helpful
for us to preserve her style/ bani. And as I mentioned earlier, I was only focusing on the issues in debate. (Of course, the attempts to
preserve the style holds for any other musician, irrespective of caste.)

Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

And may help you to correct your perspective.

Absolutely. I would re-iterate that my views are of a lay rasika. I will be ever open to corrections. How about you?

[Anusha]

What is interesting is that the very same arguments were made and resulted in caste based reservations in colleges and universities, including for post-graduate education. Not many made a noise and we were happy to let things deteriorate to the miserable state it is in today.

But when it comes to Carnatic Music, we get riled up about it and are ready to make our opinions be known loudly.

Looks like we have our priorities

Could you clarify what you mean here? I am not aware of caste-based reservations in Carnatic music.

[sureshvv]

'Wrong books' - didn't get that ?

I think you need to go back in time a little bit more for a true perspective on this ancient art. Look for the classics is my advice. Your list is too new for my liking.

Let's take for example Mylapore Gowri ammal. If we could trace any descendant / disciple who has learnt from her, then it will be helpful for us to preserve her style/ bani.

I much prefer when you say "disciple" rather than "descendant" although both may be true in many instances. I think this distinction is very important to not further the caste chasm that we need to bridge.

Absolutely. I would re-iterate that my views are of a lay rasika. I will be ever open to corrections. How about you?

Of course! Which is why we are having this discussion. And, by the way, most of us here are only lay rasikas. So feel free to post your opinions boldly

[sureshvv]

Could you clarify what you mean here? I am not aware of caste-based reservations in Carnatic music.

We don't have them. And we never should. Caste based reservations in any field goes only to divide us further. If not before, this should be obvious now after decades of conducting this failed experiment.