The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Anusha
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 13:50

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Anusha »

[/quote]
Of course! Which is why we are having this discussion. And, by the way, most of us here are only lay rasikas. So feel free to post your opinions boldly :)
[/quote]

Thanks for the encouraging reply. As you might have seen, I am flooded with so many thoughts. And, I wonder if the mods will ban me for making too many posts!
Last edited by Anusha on 07 Dec 2017, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

Anusha
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Anusha »

Caste based reservations in any field goes only to divide us further. If not before, this should be obvious now after decades of conducting this failed experiment.
I have a different opinion. Will try to explain sometime.

sankark
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sankark »

kvjayan wrote: 06 Dec 2017, 17:47 "How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?"
Why should CM (or HM or WCM or RobindroSangeeth or yakshagAnam or sOpanam) be inclusive? Music is inclusive - believe anyone in the world has some music they like and listen and derive satisfaction/enlightenment.

Say can we take this and say "How do we make therukUthu more inclusive"?

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

True. But the people who like CM may believe that having more and diverse people interested/practicing the art may further it. Kind of evangelizing CM.

Narayanan NB
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Narayanan NB »

I feel there is unwanted focus on all things except music in Carnatic. It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music. Being a student and rasika of both Carnatic and Hindustani, I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani. TMK keeps mentioning that a musician's sincerity should be towards music and not towards rasikas which I perfectly agree. I agree with many of his ideas about Carnatic music and I also love his music most of the time. But I fail to see sincerity towards music in his performances many times. I don't care what he has to say while he is not performing. And I am perfectly fine with him not sticking to a paddhati etc as long as the music is sincere, But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing. I was so frustrated to listen to him blabbering about some dead journalist , then about some God damn writer (God knows who they are and what their connection is with music) and about one's right to protest etc, in one of his concert, while on the other hand his shruti lapses were becoming more and more unbearable. That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

By the way, I would love to listen to a debate between Rajan Parikkar and TMK.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Both are gas bags but one several orders of magnitude more intelligent.

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 while on the other hand his shruti lapses were becoming more and more unbearable. That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.
Well HM has a different layam flow and a different handling of Sruti. A thoughtful CM would find it's own optimum ( is like football players worried about concussions) to avoid voice damage.

And an efficient CM system would have replaced TMK by now. We leave brand building to the musicians themselves. We have problems from supply chain to production line to marketing to delivery ( hah! I have commercialized CM!!).

And we bad mouth past Brand builders who did it big time for the artistes as well :twisted: :evil:

TMK's digressions into other things suggest a deep failure of brand building and keeping with times!

Anusha
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Anusha »

kvjayan wrote: 06 Dec 2017, 17:47 By trying to do something quiet, constructive over a period of time
Here is how I see it.

TM Krishna may be attention seeking. But, as long as his causes are genuine, that is fine.
(Yes, there are various other artistes making great efforts in their own right, with less or no publicity.
My intent is never to compare one against the other. Each one has specific priorities.)

Quite often rasikas have wished that TMK sticks to his music. TMK has clearly explained his stand. He feels the need to link art with
societal issues. Let’s respect his choice.

I see TMK as an intellectual with complete conviction in his music, and the causes that he works on. It requires exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system, when we are actually part of it, and continue to work there with a resolve to address it. His quest for critical enquiry in and outside music, amazes me.

Yes, he is there in all forms of media, with provocative articles, and talks on music, social, political issues.
I have been regular to read the ones on music. I have not read much of his non-music articles, have preferred to read other reporters,
historians on such issues.

Yes, many of his writings seem cynical, negative, and wordy. I have often had an impulse to deny, react to it immediately. Felt disturbed, confused, annoyed at times. I understand some of his points, and don’t follow some others. But, importantly they expose the harsh realities of life.
In the IT world, this is called ‘Disruptive thinking’. In the socio-political world, well maybe ‘Revolution’?

TMK’s book has received critical acclaim from scholars Amartya Sen, David Shulman among others. I see that as an achievement.

Efforts led by TMK: in addition to performing and teaching, changes to the concert format, study of Sangeeta Sampradaya Pradashini, Organizing Nadaswaram concerts at various venues in December, Singing with Jogappas, Urur Olcott Kuppam - arranging concerts in alternate venues, exploring other art forms.

(With due respect, I would disagree with Chitravina Ravikiran’s article, especially to the ‘fake-news’ and ‘less Action-Talk ratio’ allegations.)

Will TMK's efforts yield results? We need to wait and watch. It depends largely on how much support he gets from fellow musicians, organizers, and rasikas. I wish him all success.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Can you paraphrase for us:

1. What is wrong with the "system" now
2. How to go about "fixing" it
3. How anything TMK has been doing is aligned with #2 above.

kvjayan
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by kvjayan »

#183 looks like the abstract of an MPhil dissertation under preparation (perhaps to be submitted to JNU).

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:12 I think there's some substance to the "fair complexion" arguments. Indians of all hues are very racist and certainly "fair complexion" is a highly valued absolute. Krishna, Krishnaa (aka Draupadi) are all exceptions cited as if to prove a point. Yes, they prove that everybody else worthy of praise or adoration or reverence was "fair and lovely" :). Not a single character in Kalidaasa is "dark and lovely" !!

Ironically, Indians considered very "fair" in India feel insulted when they are labeled people of "color" in America :). There is no end to this nonsense.

In politics, one might argue that Indira Gandhi, MGR, Jayalalitha, may have been considered less "charismatic" figures if they had been black instead of white.

Worst of all, dark complexioned people are made to feel inferior across Indian culture, much more so than "colored" people are made to feel in white lands in modern times. So while Indian "culture" has remained stagnant, western "culture" is evolving.

So that argument is not without merit.

Also, please excuse me if I don't respond to "rebuttals". My goal is never to win any "arguments", I don't have any.
Nithyasree Mahadevan is dark skinned.

Bombay Jayashree is dark skinned.

Palghat Mani Iyer was dark skinned.

Sanjay Subhramanyan is dark skinned.

And they all are successful.

The color of your skin doesn't make you successful in Carnatic music. Your music does.

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

Here is a more important yet unaddressed question that T M Krishna or any of you fail to address: why was there a reduction in the number of Isai Vellalars in music?

Was it because they lacked talent? No - they were amongst the most gifted of musical communities. Karunanidhi's writing prowess despite his low level of education can be attributed to this genetic talent.

Was it because they were poor or lacked backing? No - there was always an Annamalai Chettiar to support them in Tamil Isai Sangam.

Was it because they had an option to not do music and seek more stable jobs? Yes - due to affirmative action, they shed the vagaries of a musical career so they, a so-called OBC community, could get into top universities like IIT Madras more easily, and settle into more paying jobs and 'abandon' the art of their forefathers.

Look at T Brinda! She had a son Surendra - he did not pursue music! From the family of Veena Dhanammal, only three are musicians today, and two active performers only! Compare it to the state some 80-90 years ago!

Isai Vellalars were musicians due to a lack of franchise. Once education and more cushy jobs were available, they moved into those professions.

TMK should first learn his basic history, sociology, and anthropology (preferably NOT from JNU) and come back to speak about these issues, not to mention decency, etiquette, and class.

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

sureshvv wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 11:21 1. What is wrong with the "system" now
Non-Brahmin musicians aren't getting slots in Sabhas during the season irrespective of the fact that the number of non-Brahmin, non-Nagaswaram artiste musicians is almost NIL.
sureshvv wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 11:21 2. How to go about "fixing" it
Give Non-Brahmin musicians prime slots in Saptarishi sabhas irrespective of talent due to their caste, leading up to caste-based reservation in Carnatic Music.
sureshvv wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 11:21 3. How anything TMK has been doing is aligned with #2 above.
He 'gives' upcoming Nagaswaram musicians junior slots in Saptarishi Sabha. Such programs are marked in Sabha schedules as being 'Sponsored by Sumanasa Foundation'. A complete list is available on his FB page.

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music.
Unless Carnatic music according to you is the atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces, I suggest you go back and listen to Carnatic music properly. It is obvious you haven't.
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani.
No one turns up to a Hindustani music concert, so the musician sings like there is no one around (and there is no one around). You have conflated this with 'sincerity'.
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing.
If you want to find faults and slips in shruti you will find exactly that. Go back and listen to his music properly and learn to appreciate it as a whole without listening to it to find shruti slips and you may probably like it (but understanding is still a long way for you).
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.
Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!

ramamatya
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ramamatya »

Anusha wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 10:50
It requires exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system, when we are actually part of it, and continue to work there with a resolve to address it. His quest for critical enquiry in and outside music, amazes me.

Yes, he is there in all forms of media, with provocative articles, and talks on music, social, political issues.
Really? Bashing Brahmins is one of the easiest thing to do. No need for exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system. Others that can get you instant fame/recognition/awards (read Magsaysay etc) are making noises about India being a poverty ridden country, how minorities are treated, etc. The list is endless. Bashing Brahmins is a very old technique as old as maybe 1960s or so when the Dravidian movement started out. Correct me if I'm wrong about the decade.

Wonder why this puppet has taken up the old technique. Maybe applying it to a new scenario like Carnatic, he thinks,makes him a pioneer. And people come out in droves saying he is some unique, exemplary character !

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Only us Tamil mamas seem to be wise to his designs. Seems to getting traction among young people, women (Anusha for instance) & people in other states.

sankark
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sankark »

Charu Venkat wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 17:47
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.
Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!
I haven't much, almost nil, listened to HM. So no thoughts on the applicability/veracity.

But almost ROTFL. Thanks for that.

Narayanan NB
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Narayanan NB »

Dear Charu Venkat Sir
Let me make it very clear that I don't have anything against Carnatic music or T.M Krishna. I am a big fan of TMK and as I mentioned in the earlier post I agree with most of his views regarding Carnatic music. I have been listening to Carnatic music for more than 20 years and I rate one of TMK' s concert I heard a year back Aug 21, 2016 to be one of the best I have heard in Carnatic and one of the most sublime experience I ever had listening to a Carnatic concert. I had narrated my experience of listening to that concert in this very forum. My only request to TMK in the earlier post was to stick to music while in a concert. I can't fathom the relationship that music has with some unknown writer or a poet or right to protest against certain evil law allowing terrorists to be hanged. While in normal course I would not have cared for Shruti lapses, like in the concert he gave on Aug 21 I forgot everything including myself, I thought he could have rather focussed on the shruti aspect rather than talk about such political stuffs which are in no way connected to music. And I've nothing against TMK when he says these outside a music concert as I am least bothered about what he has to say when he is not delivering music. It is in this very context that I said HM musicians are far more sincere. I never claimed they are superior to CM musicians. But yes they would have rather focussed on something related to music even if they wanted to say something in between a concert.
Last edited by Narayanan NB on 08 Dec 2017, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

It seems to make HM interesting, it requires Carnatic musicians to steal some of its ways and sing CM like it!! ;)

Narayanan NB
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Narayanan NB »

Charu Venkat wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 17:47
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music.
Unless Carnatic music according to you is the atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces, I suggest you go back and listen to Carnatic music properly. It is obvious you haven't.
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani.
No one turns up to a Hindustani music concert, so the musician sings like there is no one around (and there is no one around). You have conflated this with 'sincerity'.
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing.
If you want to find faults and slips in shruti you will find exactly that. Go back and listen to his music properly and learn to appreciate it as a whole without listening to it to find shruti slips and you may probably like it (but understanding is still a long way for you).
Narayanan NB wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:28 That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.
Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!
And as far as crowd in HM goes just take a note of the attendance for the Sawai Gandharva Mahotsav. But it's not a social get together for NRIs who want to discuss about the taste of the food in the canteen or their latest vacations or the latest fashion trends.

Sachi_R
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Sachi_R »

Sorry can't follow the conversations here easily with my addled brain, so please elucidate if Sumana's Foundation of Sri. TMK is scheduling and arranging concerts by exploited and disadvantaged people? Where, please? Anyone attended such a concert?

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

There are 2 nadaswaram festivals in January, one at BGS, another at KGS. Both sponsored by Nalli.

Anusha
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Anusha »

Charu Venkat wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 17:38
sureshvv wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 11:21 2. How to go about "fixing" it
Give Non-Brahmin musicians prime slots in Saptarishi sabhas irrespective of talent due to their caste, leading up to caste-based reservation in Carnatic Music.
Oops. That’s the most unkindest cut!

Here, you are making two assumptions :
1. All slots belong to Brahmin artistes.
Incorrect. Music is universal, it is not the possession of a single community.

2. We are sacrificing few slots to other community artistes
Incorrect again. We are not reserving. In fact, they are deserving. They have enriched our art, and we have been
neglecting them from leading sabhas.

Let's show some sensitivity, please.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Anusha wrote: 09 Dec 2017, 17:33 Oops. That’s the most unkindest cut!
I think he/she was just being sarcastic.
Here, you are making two assumptions :
1. All slots belong to Brahmin artistes.
Incorrect. Music is universal, it is not the possession of a single community.
Agree 100%. Like I said, I don't think that assumption was ever made.
In fact, they are deserving. They have enriched our art, and we have been neglecting them from leading sabhas.
Not convinced. Give us some names. We will go listen to them. And if you are right, we will petition the sabhas right from here. Sachi will do the paperwork :D

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

Charu Venkat wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 17:47 atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces
If translated back , that was revered - something holy. We were accommodating of some of the ills of musicians that developed overtime, because there was value in it. Including many YACMers whom we listened with patience ;) . India is a compassionate place in many ways!

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

It is the still the great purifier/disinfectant, Let us give melam72 the benefit of the doubt :D

rshankar
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by rshankar »

Really? Why???

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Just feeling charitable this Sunday I guess :) TNS deserves better than such verbal excoriation.

rshankar
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by rshankar »

TNS, sure!

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

sureshvv wrote: 09 Dec 2017, 18:02 I think he/she was just being sarcastic.
To clarify, I am a she, and I was sarcastic, almost caustic as a matter of fact.
sureshvv wrote: 09 Dec 2017, 18:02 Not convinced. Give us some names. We will go listen to them. And if you are right, we will petition the sabhas right from here. Sachi will do the paperwork :D
Instead of sitting and doing all this thinnai vambu on Rasikas.org, listen to the concerts sponsored by the Sumanasa Foundation. The schedule is on Mr.Krishna's FB page.

Ranganayaki
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Ranganayaki »

ram1999 wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 12:37 I guess the easiest thing that krishna could do is sto start singing "surangani Surangani surangani malu kanna vaa ...." the dapankuthu song in his concerts in place of the varnam which will start attracting the kuppam people, his target audience for inclusiveness and CM to sustain for years to come.

And also he should stop singing songs which have been composed by the bhramin community as he is in a anti bhramin tirade !!
What a horrid, low-brow discussion - with all due respect to the small handful who have tried to have a polite discussion! This post is one of the most egregious, showing disdain and contempt for the "kuppam people." There certainly are other ugly posts too.

And to think that this discussion has raged on for 9 pages without any reference to the actual speech! With not ONE quote Pstating exactly what you found offensive. Here is a link to the actual speech :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRyhgog0RtA

The article/blog by someone called SureshS a link to which was provided in post 117 was a beautiful example of how to analytically criticize an article or an opinion you disagree with - without demonizing the human being who holds those views, the way it's always done here.

We at rasikas have a lot to be ashamed of, especially that we are incapable of of arguing effectively or admitting that our point of view holds no water. This is a political argument and if you are trying to hang on to a certain hegemony as the quote above seems to show, it is essentially a dishonest position that can only appear to be right when the opponent is completely discredited and dehumanized, which is what happens to TMK every time he exercises his democratic right to be a thoughtful citizen by writing, the most peaceful form of opposition. We really SHOULD be ashamed.

Disclaimer: I generally like tmk's music, but I am not a diehard fan.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 07:27
ram1999 wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 12:37 I guess the easiest thing that krishna could do is sto start singing "surangani Surangani surangani malu kanna vaa ...." the dapankuthu song in his concerts in place of the varnam which will start attracting the kuppam people, his target audience for inclusiveness and CM to sustain for years to come.

And also he should stop singing songs which have been composed by the bhramin community as he is in a anti bhramin tirade !!
What a horrid, low-brow discussion - with all due respect to the small handful who have tried to have a polite discussion! This post is one of the most egregious, showing disdain and contempt for the "kuppam people." dited and dehumanized, which is what happens to TMK every time he exercises his democratic right to be a thoughtful citizen by writing, the most peaceful form of opposition.
Are you sure you are not the one being judgmental here? Are Surangani and dappanguthu so vile?

Ranganayaki
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Ranganayaki »

Haha, you're being disingenuous, Suresh. I did consider your angle before I wrote and i knew what exactly makes me indignant.

I used to sort of feel it was a fun song. It had its place. It's not vile, but it has no place in a cm concert. I would not be emotionally, intellectually or spiritually stimulated by it.

Would YOU or Ram1999 be attracted to a carnatic concert featuring surangani? That's where his disdain is obvious. It's good for the kuppam people, not any of the usual audience! That will do for them, for us, the glorious music! What a shame!

Ranganayaki
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Ranganayaki »

TMK makes his point very well. It's just a question of the humanity of the other community. It is just to make them one day come to a concert if they would like to. Familiarize them with "our" music so that they can feel they have a stake in it too, in that life. His driver cannot come to his concert, he says in that speech. Nothing bars him, the doors are not closed, but it won't do to say that he is equal, that we didn't prevent him from coming. Wouldnt any man hesitate to join a large group of just women though there is nothing that shuts him off? Wouldn't a word of welcome or a seat offered encourage him to join the banter? TMK is making the effort to do his bit, to offer a safe space for that community of fisherpeople to familiarize themselves with this music, so that one day it will be natural for a young fisherman's daughter or son to enter a concert and take a seat. He is doing his bit to make it possible for a poor man to come if he is drawn to it. Who are you to demonize that honest and committed effort? You will all attend dramas and lecdems about nandanar, claim him as a great nayanmar, but you do not recognize that that drama would be played in the heart of a kuppam boy even today if he yearned to sing or play a flute he sees in the movies, but couldn't for want of access. TMK is doing his bit to make it possible IF they want. Who are you all to demonize him?Why would you not welcome them? Why was nandanar excluded? This comment quoted above should give everyone a clear answer.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 08:05 Haha, you're being disingenuous, Suresh.
It was an honest question.
I used to sort of feel it was a fun song. It had its place. It's not vile, but it has no place in a cm concert. I would not be emotionally, intellectually or spiritually stimulated by it.
Exactly. That's kind of what we are all trying to tell TMK.
Would YOU or Ram1999 be attracted to a carnatic concert featuring surangani? That's where his disdain is obvious. It's good for the kuppam people, not any of the usual audience! That will do for them, for us, the glorious music! What a shame!
This is where you are being judgmental. Everybody has their music that they like. One is not superior to the other. There is nothing "glorious" about Carnatic Music and there is nothing vile about Surangani.

When I (or anyone else) want to listen to the Surangani I can head to the kuppam. When I want to listen to Carnatic Music, I walk into any of the sabhas.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 08:25 TMK makes his point very well. It's just a question of the humanity of the other community. It is just to make them one day come to a concert if they would like to. Familiarize them with "our" music so that they can feel they have a stake in it too, in that life. His driver cannot come to his concert, he says in that speech. Nothing bars him, the doors are not closed, but it won't do to say that he is equal, that we didn't prevent him from coming. Wouldnt any man hesitate to join a large group of just women though there is nothing that shuts him off? Wouldn't a word of welcome or a seat offered encourage him to join the banter? TMK is making the effort to do his bit, to offer a safe space for that community of fisherpeople to familiarize themselves with this music, so that one day it will be natural for a young fisherman's daughter or son to enter a concert and take a seat. He is doing his bit to make it possible for a poor man to come if he is drawn to it. Who are you to demonize that honest and committed effort? You will all attend dramas and lecdems about nandanar, claim him as a great nayanmar, but you do not recognize that that drama would be played in the heart of a kuppam boy even today if he yearned to sing or play a flute he sees in the movies, but couldn't for want of access. TMK is doing his bit to make it possible IF they want. Who are you all to demonize him?Why would you not welcome them? Why was nandanar excluded? This comment quoted above should give everyone a clear answer.
We are all happy to welcome anyone. TMK is the one who is demonizing everyone starting with MS & her husband.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by arasi »

Enough said, enough argued, little gained, agreed.
Then, is it the way he showcases all that he thinks,
Does, the way he is and wants us to know about it?

ram1999
Posts: 534
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 17:20

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ram1999 »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 08:05 Haha, you're being disingenuous, Suresh. I did consider your angle before I wrote and i knew what exactly makes me indignant.

I used to sort of feel it was a fun song. It had its place. It's not vile, but it has no place in a cm concert. I would not be emotionally, intellectually or spiritually stimulated by it.

Would YOU or Ram1999 be attracted to a carnatic concert featuring surangani? That's where his disdain is obvious. It's good for the kuppam people, not any of the usual audience! That will do for them, for us, the glorious music! What a shame!
I guess there is a clear misunderstanding of my post. There are various types and kinds of music and different people like different type of music. I love Indian classical music (CM/HM) but my children run at a 100 kms speed should i play classical music. Though I have taken enough efforts to get them listen to the classicial music, their ears simply do not have the space to take it. Now can I force it more ! It is futile.

Therefore trying or forcing CM into people who do not have the ears is just going to be futile. Let them enjoy what they like. However, experimenting CM singing in the Kuppam is not bad at all and is to be lauded. Portraying that he is the savior of the art or putting down others in the effort to popularize is a cheap publicity stunt.I am not sure who is stopping a person from the kuppam to come and sit inside the hall to listen to CM. I am understand this happening in a temple still (unfortunate) but not in a music hall ??

I have heard when MMI used to sing in Kapaleeswarar Temple, rickshaw pullers used to stop their work and throng in front of the temple to listen to the divine music of MMI. Similarly even today, any artist that performs in temples in kerala, people from all walks of life throng and listen to CM, perhaps keralites have better taste than all of us put together :lol:

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 08:25 His driver cannot come to his concert, he says in that speech.
In many forums (organizations , programs) that have anything to do with Sanskriti, you can see Srilankan Tamizh people, but you cannot see many of the Tamils from TamizhnAdu. This is nothing but subversion of their mind. It is not that pre such subversion they were overwhelming connoisuers of this music. Barring the musical communities, they were'nt. Neither were a lot of Brahmins too!

We are talking about what could have been different when music opened up for all. That is exactly the period of the tussle for power and anti-brahminism. The isai vellalar conundrum , has nothing much to do with the kind of things Ranganayaki cites , like his driver not able to come into his concert.

I have listened to that type of teary eyed speech in his IIMB presentation.

He said Coimbatore and he didn't say which sabha. If there was a care taker/driver that made arrangements for him, who refused to come into his concert, that is a typical yajamanan - sEvakan conundrum and a sEvakan not wanting to be seen as acting big in front of some yajamAnan, benefactor of his that employs him. That is a problem statement to be made to the Left and not to the would be most privileged executives of the future. The best the left has done is rid such people of jobs they had in the first place.

This has nothing to do with brahmins making a sabha venue uncomfortable for others. I don't deny the "uncomfortable" part, only deny the "making" part. They are uncomfortable - period. The moopanar family relative felt the same , in the U.S. and he has listened to Thiruvaiyaru concerts with his grand father. This is a cultural discomfort. I would not by the same token go into a Telugu association celebration or Gujarati Garbha dance.

A brahmin smarta friend of mine would not come to Sri Velukudi Krishnan discourse , because that will be dotted by Vaishnavites. I have spent my child hood listening to such discourses, I didn't have any such discomfort!

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

There are a lot of places that people visit where their drivers don't accompany them. To tarnish Carnatic Music for this is ridiculous.

Nowadays you can see many people who are not even from India attending concerts (some even in Indian attire)
If one is interested to listen to the music, it is very easy.

ram1999
Posts: 534
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 17:20

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ram1999 »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 15:52 There are a lot of places that people visit where their drivers don't accompany them. To tarnish Carnatic Music for this is ridiculous.

Nowadays you can see many people who are not even from India attending concerts (some even in Indian attire)
If one is interested to listen to the music, it is very easy.
It could be a possibility that the driver enjoys a dapankuthu song more than a vathapi ganapathim sung by his boss krishna. why torture the poor driver to come and sit in the claustrophobic hall of music :lol:

ram1999
Posts: 534
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 17:20

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ram1999 »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 08:25 His driver cannot come to his concert, he says in that speech. Nothing bars him, the doors are not closed, but it won't do to say that he is equal, that we didn't prevent him from coming.
At least his driver will not crib after the concert that the singer started with a mangalam and ended with a varnam or each piece sung was disjointed :D :D

kvjayan
Posts: 62
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 17:08

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by kvjayan »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 15:52 There are a lot of places that people visit where their drivers don't accompany them.
For example, the much hyped Lit. Fest. and other elite 5-star events, frequented by revolutionary musicians, artists and authors.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Nick H »

revolutionary musicians, artists and authors.
Gods forbid that creativity and intelligence should actually move the world on a little! Oh dear me, no.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

If the narrative is based on Leftist ideas - then no - it is a journey to nowhere. After British destruction of Indian Textiles ( remember the yarn wheel of Gandhism?) , it was the turn of the Leftists in Maharashtra to put Union members out of job. And every handyman, small time AC repair man talks droves about how the UAW ( United Auto workers) wrecked Detroit!

So even in a controlled experiment in small time & space labs , that failed. Not that Unions should go away - they are needed to check high handed management. May be John Nash's equilibrium may bring some sanity.

But unless we reject that philosophy in every facet of our lives , including Academia, no dialogue is possible. That is a war on humanity!!

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