The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Sachi_R
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

In the past 24 hours, I have heard three comments:
1. The concert was so perfect there wasn't a whiff of creativity.
2. He sang well, but my God, those gratuitous hand gestures!
3. The man's explosive and endless exuberant creativity simply fried my brains.

Let us look in the mirror.
We are argumentative, opinionated, spoilt, brats who should be caned and whipped like in a medieval boarding school. We demand perfect sahitya, superb manodharma, great miking, excellent canteens, even better toilets, Tani which is short but explosive, shahi tukkadas, succulent super six ragas, my favourite raga and composer, stage decor, etc. etc.

And then if someone says I loved that music or artiste, we snigger, sneer, snout out pout and say, YOU MEAN THAAAAAT?

We have lecdems. They are all exercises in splitting hairs in front of bald people.

We have self promotion speeches. And matching fan posts. And then pictures that carefully photoshop out the millions of empty seats.

We hate tickets. We hate queues. We love music. As long as it is free, great and served on a silver patter (Thank you, we shall take the platter home).

Image

Mirror! Frankly I am disgusted with myself.

Did someone say a rasika gets the music he deserves? Or de-serves?

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Nick H »

We are argumentative, opinionated, spoilt, brats who should be caned and whipped like in a medieval boarding school. We demand perfect sahitya, superb manodharma, great miking, excellent canteens, even better toilets, Tani which is short but explosive, shahi tukkadas, succulent super six ragas, my favourite raga and composer, stage decor, etc. etc.
Let's take a different and somewhat gentler angle on that... We expect the best from professional artists. I don't think they would expect us to expect anything less, and the truth is that very often, they deliver.

Yes, we are spoilt by an excess of [free] concerts. Especially Chennai residents, and Bangalore seems to be on the increase. A live music concert is a live, by actual humans event and it may soar to 120%, it may only reach 101% when we saw the same artist reach 110% the week before, or... things may go wrong here or there. An artist's health may be below par, influences which are not under their control, from audio to traffic etc etc etc, can destroy their concert. All part of the ongoing adventure of live music.

Also, our tastes differ. Some people like circus shows of physical or vocal acrobatics, and some of us don't. We can have good fun, and help to keep the internet alive, chewing the cud on such issues.

Ultimately, it's all good. Even when it isn't.

:D :D :D

sureshvv
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sureshvv »

You have not meant vasanthakokilam... So you are forgiven this rant!

MaheshS
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by MaheshS »

Sachi_R wrote: 28 Dec 2017, 10:42 Let us look in the mirror.
Ohhh I didn't realise the onus is on the *rasika* rather than the performer. My mistake, sorry for having an opinion. Kali Yuga, all is upside down :)

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 28 Dec 2017, 10:42 even better toilets
You see I should quit listening to music and focus on that issue. Make self cleaning toilets. That would emancipate a lot of people. Make them Jan Dhan recipients. Of course they cannot go without Aadhar to ensure the largesse gets distributed as pittance correctly. But their privileged protagonists would like to not have Aadhar, so they will not need to worry about any subversive activities.

Would we be able to still make them dignified, get them protective gear? Well no you see, we cannot procure things and supply them without corruption in bureaucracy. So automation and technology is the only way out.

For I owe this to my civilisational predecessors, since the chandas and its sacredness and its associated purity, all that came from outside ( that is the real Agama) caused all these issues:

https://scroll.in/article/682712/what-t ... india-plan

You now see the connection now? If you still don't get the connection to music here it is :

https://twitter.com/MadrasMobile/status ... 8298804224

From Chandas walk out to ...

I can help there. Set out to work on a self cleaning one - Indianized. It will shower from all directions and clean itself. And auto dry afterwards. I will also need to water proof the devices:

https://www.us.kohler.com/us/numi-toile ... dId=430036

Music from auditorium can now stream directly into it. We established the connection see...

You see why Magasaysay awardees were chosen with the right pairing! We didn't see the connection as we didn't dig deeper you see.

I remember harimau felt he should not feel inferior to the North as they could not build flush toilets. I could build them South , but I will have to add Self cleaning to remove all guilt and complexes.

May be they will empty before the concert and stay to listen!!
Last edited by shankarank on 30 Dec 2017, 19:56, edited 2 times in total.

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

Shankarank,
Your writing as always is like a Chettinad restaurant Thali. A lot of it is very delicious, but equally much of it is inedible.

The guy who says Indus people were in no way connected with Aryans needs to explain a few things:
1. Who were the Indus people, how did they disappear, did they have any contact with rest of humanity, did they grow crops, did they consume milk, how can we discard any possibility of an agrarian Aryan society not having any evolutionary connection in time or space with them?
2. What is the date of Aryans? Who invented the wheel? And if wheels were fitted to carriages, didn't humans travel on them? Even in Indus Valley?
3. What was the method of faeces disposal in various countries? For example in Korea, I discovered people built houses on stilts and they would defecate for pigs on the basement to feast on the waste, grow healthy and then be slaughtered for healthy pork.

Coming to chandas, a recurrent theme in your posts, छन्दस्, is overridden musically by the demands of the Tala system, in my opinion.

Coming to self-cleaning toilets, a great idea. This is already a reality in many parts of India. I wrote about it 3 years ago: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1063686787

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 30 Dec 2017, 19:16 Coming to chandas, a recurrent theme in your posts, छन्दस्, is overridden musically by the demands of the Tala system, in my opinion.
Yes you are right it is difficult to set Slokas into music. If that is easy, even trinity be vanquished already on stage , given our direct Bhakti fervor to god!

But composers from Jayadeva down found a way out and trinity took it to heights.
Sachi_R wrote: 30 Dec 2017, 19:16 pigs on the basement
You see, there is a beneficial worm in there that cures some colon bleeding. Somebody went to South East Asia just for that. They did not have to have it as food. It was transfused from another person who lived nearby - coexisted.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#6-> Indus valley civilization was not based on advanced Agriculture. ( 3000 BC.) It was Saivite. meaning primitive Phallic culture. Rug Veda ridicules the sisinavadins. ( phallic worshipers). It is this sivalingam stuff that later assumed the more decent garb of Saivism. There is no trace of Saivite lores in Sangam lirtearture but PLENTY about Vaishnavam. Now, Vaishnavam is the culture of Aryans who migrated into India from some place in Central Asia. possibly from the Oxus river basin. They already had an advanced rural culture. based on cattle wealth. They cleared the Ganetic plain and formed numerous settlements. These happened around 1500 BC. As they crossed the mountain barrier in North west and entered India, it was inevitable that they observed and absorbed many things from the Indus culture. Indus culture bore striking resemblance with Nile culture and Mesopotamian culture of Iraq. . There was a blend and much intermixing and thus was formed Indo ( read Indus)-Aryan culture that is prevalent today and will prevail for ever. only strengthened by the teachings of Mahavira and Buddha ( 600 BC. After that , there is no trace of pure vedic culture in India except among the most Orthodox vedic brahmins. ...Tamis are Ayyans and there is a mention of 'panccha jana' in Rugvedha. corresponding to Ainthinai makkaL. of Tamil classification. All the MOOVENDHAR kings Pandya, Chozha and Chera migrated from Gangetic plain into far south around 1000 BC. .. Saivism entered Tamilnad only in the reign of Pallavas and Imperial Chozhas ( 600 AD, 1000 AD.). due to the influence of Gupthas in 300 AD. Saivism is essentially a religion of Marudham ( RIVER-VALLEY. ) landlords. while vaishanavm is that of Mullai ( pastoral people. Tagore.... D.D.Kosambi , AL BASHAM.

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

RSR,
Good, thank you!
From whatever I am reading, and the BBC documentaries, I tend to think that AAryans were originally from the Indian continent only, and this was an ancient civilisation that evolved and cross-fertilised with various other civilisations. The Aryan migration theory and the great war etc. are old discarded theories. Also a lot of genetic research is going on to establish connections.

I found this great BBC site. It connects to their documentaries.
Image

sankark
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 30 Dec 2017, 23:45 #6-> Indus valley civilization was not based on advanced Agriculture. ( 3000 BC.) It was Saivite. meaning primitive Phallic culture. Rug Veda ridicules the sisinavadins. ( phallic worshipers). It is this sivalingam stuff that later assumed the more decent garb of Saivism. There is no trace of Saivite lores in Sangam lirtearture but PLENTY about Vaishnavam. Now, Vaishnavam is the culture of Aryans who migrated into India from some place in Central Asia. possibly from the Oxus river basin. They already had an advanced rural culture. based on cattle wealth. They cleared the Ganetic plain and formed numerous settlements. These happened around 1500 BC. As they crossed the mountain barrier in North west and entered India, it was inevitable that they observed and absorbed many things from the Indus culture. Indus culture bore striking resemblance with Nile culture and Mesopotamian culture of Iraq. . There was a blend and much intermixing and thus was formed Indo ( read Indus)-Aryan culture that is prevalent today and will prevail for ever. only strengthened by the teachings of Mahavira and Buddha ( 600 BC. After that , there is no trace of pure vedic culture in India except among the most Orthodox vedic brahmins. ...Tamis are Ayyans and there is a mention of 'panccha jana' in Rugvedha. corresponding to Ainthinai makkaL. of Tamil classification. All the MOOVENDHAR kings Pandya, Chozha and Chera migrated from Gangetic plain into far south around 1000 BC. .. Saivism entered Tamilnad only in the reign of Pallavas and Imperial Chozhas ( 600 AD, 1000 AD.). due to the influence of Gupthas in 300 AD. Saivism is essentially a religion of Marudham ( RIVER-VALLEY. ) landlords. while vaishanavm is that of Mullai ( pastoral people. Tagore.... D.D.Kosambi , AL BASHAM.
Curiosity: is this all conjecture/hypothesis or theory with backed evidence? Is Al Basham a reference to his 'The wonder that was India's?

On Pandyas being of North folks moving south, what of the first and second sangams and the prevalent reigns at that time? Supposedly they were very early BC period, isn't it?

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#10->Sri. sankark-> 1) The refrence to A.L.Basham ..is to his book 'The Wonder that was India'.. He was among the first few historians to have attempted to look at Indian history from the Tamil' literature angle. and a close friend of DDKosambi. 2) My observations are based on D.D.Kosambi 's The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical Outline. I have read that book many times to glean what he is trying to say.. and being a native of Southern Tamilnad, I tend to conclude that 'brahmins' and 'nagarathar's are surely of Indus culture.as also the fertlity cult. Kosambi marvels at the strict adherence to tradition .When floods ravage the cities, they are rebuilt exactly according to the previous pattern. . . Kosambi writes nicely about the insistence of ritualistic purity, the temple baths, and of the 'oor vasi's!. ( resident of Ur of Babylonia' as Nehru points out. ) This is a very complex question. K.A.Nilakanta Sastry in his History Of South India . has brought to notice the observation of Heimendorf that the kingdoms of Iraq vanished entirely from history from around 600 BC after the emergence of Persian Empire. which actually included part of Sind province ( just adjoining Persia) and Persian conquest of Entire Levant and the war with Greece. The scene then shifts to Alexander's revenge and stopping at Indus due to reluctance of his generals to enter Gangetic plain ruled and protected by the huge Magadhan Army. Subsequent history of India has been well-researched and confirmed. but excluding the far-far south, that is the traditional Pandyan and Cheran and Chola country. Heimendorf an anthroplogist opines that the 'Dravidian's ( of Iraq) came by sea and settled down in Far South Tamil country. Hence the great resemblance of all temple rituals of Sumeria in deep South.. Earlier, there had been influx of Iraqis into North Indian Gangetic plain. Parthians. A lot of mixing of Iranian ( Persian, Sanskritic) Fire-worship- along with Natural forces practice of Vedic brahmins and the idol worshipping Iraqis. All historians agree that it was the fire-worshipping brahmins who assimilated the idol worshpiing native population of aryan settlements in Gangetic plain. Panini taught at Taxila university 700 BC in the Indo -Iranian border. If we equate brahmins with fire-worshipping priests and aryans as peasant cultivators and militia and kshathriays as protectors of values preached by Brahmin priests , things fall into place. 3) There was no Lemuria. The deluge might have occured in the Levant as even the old testament speaks of it. The Mesapotamians and Indus people had extensive trade carried through Nagarathars. In my area, even today, the Nagarathars live in palatial mmansions but the temple priests in very humble abodes near the temple. amazing persistence of tradition for 5000 years and more. Wealth did not carry prestige but even Khshathriya had to derive their power to rule from the bramin ghathika. This was the contribution of the three ancient civilizations of Egypt ( of Solar dynasty) , of Iraq and of Indus. Gangetic plain culture began only around 2000BC. This is a pattern observed in all the areas. Aryans spread out to Europe too. Prior to this mass migration from Central Asia, there were great civilizations in Crete, and the mediteranean basins. The war-like Aryan tribes vanquished the settled inhabitants, learnED their culture and built upon that basis and took the progress forward. Universal pattern. Karl Kautsky's great book on the role played by the Church in the aftermath of collapse of Roman Empire due to attack by barbarians from the North. ..If you can read Thamizh comfortably, I would like to share my tamil blog on this theme, Pandyans are definitely from Yamuna region. Even Megastahnes mentions about Madurai, Goddess Meenakshi, Lord Krushna .
http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.in/2013/04/ ... alism.html
My apologies. for the digression.
Rasikas threads tend to stray far away from the title. We can have a more appropriately named fresh thread and share our perceptions and study results.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

Image
புறம்-56
"நீ குளிர்ந்த நீரையுடைய காவிரிக்குத் தலைவன்;

இவனோ, பருத்த அடியுள்ள ஆலமரத்தின் அடிமரம் வெட்டப்பட்டு அழிந்தாலும், அதன் நெடிய நிழல் தரும் கிளைகளை விழுதுகள் தாங்குவதைப்போல், முன்னோர்கள் இறந்தாலும், தான் தளராது, நல்ல புகழுள்ள தன் பழங்குடியைத் தடுமாற்றமில்லாமல் காத்துத், தான் சிறிதே ஆயினும் பாம்பைக் கூட்டத்தோடு அழிக்கும் வெண்ணிற இடிபோல் பகவரைக் காணப் பொறாமல் போரில் சிறந்த பஞ்சவர் ஏறு .

நீயோ, அறம் நிலைபெற்ற உறையூரின் தலைவன்
இவனோ நெல்லும் நீரும் அனைவருக்கும் எளிதில் கிடைப்பவை என்று கருதி யாவர்க்கும் பெறுதற்கரிய மலையில் விளையும் சந்தனம், கடலில் விளையும் முத்து, முழங்கும் முரசு ஆகியவற்றுடன் தமிழ் பொருந்திய மதுரையில் செங்கோல் செலுத்தும் வேந்தன்.

பால போன்ற வெண்ணிற மேனியும் பனைக்கொடியும் உடைய பலராமனும் நீல நிற மேனியையுடைய திருமாலும் ஆகிய இரண்டு கடவுளரும் ஒருங்கே கூடி இருந்தாற் போல் அச்சம் பொருந்திய காட்சியொடு நீங்கள் இருவரும் விளங்குவதைவிட இனிய காட்சியும் உண்டோ? உங்கள் புகழ் நெடுங்காலம் வாழ்வதாக! மேலும் கேட்பீராக!

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

@9-> Sachi_R-> Have to differ. I swear by Nehru's book only. and that of Will Durant ( Our Oriental Heritage). and my own deep study and close observations from a region , that was the LAST in the entire India where any north indian, or deccan, or viajayanagar, or european ruler had managed to enter and reign. I mean the Sethupathy region. of Puthukkottai, Sivagangai and Ramnad districts today. . In the pre-independence days, a Professor of the then Madras University carried out extensive research in the Chettinad area and Sivaganga zamin and has written a book, asserting that if we want to see what originally the Indus culture and its traditions were, this is the place in the entire country where it is preserved without contamination from alien influences. Right now, I am unable to remember the title of the book and author's name. Will share in a day or two. and HAPPY NEW YEAR 2018 to all rasikas.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

In continuation of @13-> I remember now. It was the book 'The Dravidian Elements in Indian Culture' by Prof. Gilbert Slater
-n 1915, Slater sailed to India to take over as the first Professor of economics[2] and head of the new economics department of the University of Madras which was founded in 1912.[3] and chaired the economics department of Madras University from 1915 to 1921. Even before he arrived in India, Slater had learnt the Tamil language and was ready for his new assignment. During his tenure, Gilbert and his team performed a detailed survey of the villages in the Madras Presidency and analyzed the prevailing economic conditions. One of the people who assisted Slater in his study was South Indian businessman M. Ct. Muthiah Chettiar.[4] The results of the survey were published in the book Some South Indian Villages.[2] During his tenure, Slater worked hard to eradicate poverty.[2]

Slater also demonstrated a keen interest in the culture and civilization of South India. Back in England in 1924, he published his book The Dravidian Elements in Indian Culture.[2]
(In his 1924 book The Dravidian Elements in Indian Culture, Slater suggests an Egyptian origin for South Indian Brahmins even while accepting the prevalent Mediterranean race theory for other South Indian people.)..""All India labours under a very serious disadvantage because the language which is the medium of all higher instruction is different from the language of the home. For the present, Dravida suffers least. On the average a student of the Madras University saves about a year, as compared with students of other Indian universities, in the time necessarily spent in the preliminary study of English before beginning his chosen course of study. But, on the other hand, the development of Bengali, Hindi or Urdu into an efficient medium for scientific and general education is a much more hopeful proposition than the modernising of any Dravidian language to attain the same result. Northern India can reasonably hope to make one of its vernaculars the literary and scientific organ of between two and three hundred million people; unification of the language of the masses with the language of the learned in South India is most likely to be reached with the disappearance of the Dravidian vernaculars."
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http://madrasmusings.com/Vol%2022%20No% ... holar.html

sureshvv
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 30 Dec 2017, 23:45 Now, Vaishnavam is the culture of Aryans who migrated into India from some place in Central Asia. possibly from the Oxus river basin.
Highly speculative. Can't give credence to these wild hypotheses.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

@15->Not at all speculative. but based on the writings of very eminent historians, scholars and statesmen. .. DDKosambi was multi-faceted personality. It will be insulting one's intelligence to introduce Jawaharlal Nehru. My observations are mostly based on Kosambi's famous book on Early India and Buddhist era and on Nehru's glimpses of World history.and Discovery of India, .For an impartial observer, it is evident that there are five streams of Indian culture. 1) Fertilty cult .. sivalingam and saivite stuff. 2) Pastoral culture , based on small scale agriculture and cattle breeding, especially the Cow. . 3) Fire worship of Iranian origin. 4) influence of Buddha and Mahavira. 5) aboriginal cults. All these are still prevalent all over India. The most prevalent is the Mother Goddess. from Kerala to Bengal in various names. Bagavathi, KaLi, Bavani, Durga, Parvathi,.. this is not to be confused with fertility cult. Mother is the most natural theme for affection and attachment. Matriarchal.. . Wonderful imagery behind the story of Vamana avatharam, Next in line comes Vaishnavam. . Blue refers to the sky. People of Central Asia , Mongolian tribes were even in the days of the Chengiz Khan were are Sky worshipers. Will Durant writes about the Sun cult of egyptian priestly class. Vinoba points out that Ramayana and Mahabharata are the National literature of our country. And clearly, both Rama and Krushna are vaishanavite deities. Sangam literature begins by a preamble poem by Baratham Paadiya Perundhevanaar. The person who collected all the poems of Sangam literature was named Rudra Sarman. ( a typical brahmin name). ...Nehru clearly delineates the Gangetic plain as of Aryan. He is mightily proud of Alahabad , Baradhvaja asramam. and while speaking of the religious broad mindedness of Akbar pointedly mentions Thulasidas. .. Bakthi cult is synonymous with Vaishnavam. CM is the best example of Vaishanava theme.
An excellent and informative summary is given here... Arya if language-based refers to sanskrit origin. If ethnicity based, Indo-Iraninan.(persian). If based on occupation, Agriculturist... The predominance of Yadhava in UP and Bihar. .. During the days of Allaiddin Kilji, Devagiri in Maharashtra ( Daulatabad) was ruled by Yadhava kings.... Instead of brushing aside Puranas as mere myth, it is worthwhile to take them as infant steps in history-writing and Vishnu Puranam is the foremost among them. Reference ...Pargiter . I had the good fortune to read all these great books from the local library some 50 years back. as also of Father Heras. As this is not the proper forum, to discuss these matters, I think, this much is enough.
Last edited by RSR on 01 Jan 2018, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 01 Jan 2018, 22:03 All the southern languages begin to have regional literature with popularization of Gita . Marathi, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam.
You are connecting unconnected things. Regional literature predates the translation.
Bakthi cult is synonymous with Vaishnavam. CM is the best example of Vaishanava theme.
What about Shankara's Shanmatham?

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#17...Sankaracharya... Kaaladi... HAD to integrate Fire worship ( Aagneyam) of typical vedic brahmins with the popular religion of Saaktham, Koumaaram, Saivam. Vaishanavam, Gaanapathyam ( of Maharashtra). P.T.Stinivasa Iengar questions... what business have the Fire-worshippers have in connection with temple rituals? Vedic brahminism is against idol worship. It was an attempt at Integration. Again, Kosambi on the role of brahmins in assimilating popular cults into their fold and integrating them. And I am talking of pre-Buddha era 600 BC while Sankara was a very late arrival. 600 AD.! .. The southern states barring Tamilnad and Kerala were under Saathavahana Dynasty, from 200 BC to 200 AD, ( Four centuries of peace, prosperity, maritime trade and co-existence of Buddhism, Jainism and Vedic Beahmanism, Nilakanta Sastry's book is the acknowledged masterpiece of research and scholarship. The language was Prakrit. Just as Latin morphed gradually and gave birth to the modern European languages, so did Prakrit * colloquial samskrutham, morph into regional languages) Tamil alone is an exception. because it did not come under the rule of any north or deccan kingdoms till very late.. To be precise, 1300 AD... If you google for a monograph 'Ancient India' by Davidson, you will learn a lot.

sankark
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 01 Jan 2018, 22:03 @15->Not at all speculative. but based on the writings of very eminent historians, scholars and statesmen. .. DDKosambi was multi-faceted personality. It will be insulting one's intelligence to introduce Jawaharlal Nehru. My observations are mostly based on Kosambi's famous book on Early India and Buddhist era and on Nehru's glimpses of World history.and Discovery of India, ... I had the good fortune to read all these great books from the local library some 50 years back. as also of Father Heras. As this is not the proper forum, to discuss these matters, I think, this much is enough.
To each hir own history. Why not :P

Just one thing to keep in mind - simply because there were authors (scholars and so-called-scholars and plain hacks) and they had written books and those books were available in library doesn't make all the printed words true or history.

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

RSR,
We are surely living up to the "argumentative" part!

What's more logical? That this land had a continuously evolving, multidimensional fabric of culture and metaphysical thought, that absorbed insights from other culture,
or
that there was an inexplicable onslaught of some nomads who came in and conquered a highly developed people, replaced their culture and religion, but those same aliens have not left anywhere else this level of culture or metaphysical thought?

As Holmes or someone said, sometimes the most obvious explanation is the right one.

Given the antiquity of the people of this land provable with all the astronomical data and geographical detail in Valmiki Ramayana (a story full of "Aryan" culture), and the work done in 1960s-1990s in Dwaraka excavations that corroborate a whole lot of references in Bhagavata, Hari Vamsha and Padma Purana, I am of the opinion that Vedic thought and ancient Hindu culture was a homegrown phenomenon, and absorbed all inputs from outside.

Even Buddhism was a homegrown rebellion against homegrown vedic ritualism.

The shanmata of Adi Shankara simply ratifies this idea.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#19-> Ah!.. Who then is YOUR historian? name a few. I will try to read them. There are plenty of Swayambulingams .. who claim to know everything without reading! . As I said, I know that this is a wrong forum.


sankark
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 01 Jan 2018, 22:52 #19-> Ah!.. Who then is YOUR historian?
None. I don't want MY historian. That is the habit of the victors to rewrite the history of vanquished/oppressed. I have read Basham and I am not able to identify your thoughts with that, so will have to go re-familiarize that.

Though it is news to me that Jawaharlal Nehru is considered an historian.
RSR wrote: 01 Jan 2018, 22:52 As I said, I know that this is a wrong forum.
Right.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

@22-> There is nothing in the page mentioned, that refutes, or negates my perception. I too hold that the Great War was a real event and the Tamil kings who were then living in the Yamuna region, were witness to it. Chera king did not join either of the warring factions but fed both the warring factions. . If we place the war as having happened around 1000 BC, it is later Vedic period and definitely Aryan. We are covering fifteen centuries from 3000 BC to 1500 BC. No historian denies that there was intermingling of ideas and ideologies. Typical Indus civilization , did not have any kshathriya class according to Kosambi. The priests laid down the rules and the people laboured and gave their all to the temple. Merchants dealt with the trade of the surplus. Even very recently, ( before land-settlement act of Cornwallis) all land belonged to the temple..not to the king or individual cultivators. Devasthaanam. Poor Raja Varma of Trivandrum and the immense wealth of Padhmanabaswami temple. Devasthanam idea is not unique to India. In Western world also,, all land belonged to the Church. Kings and 'nobles' were just predators. and it took many many centuries before the kings could rule out the Pope. Who ever said that modern day Panipat or Dehi did not exist at the time of the Great War? Hasthinapuram. Just because there is geographical continuity, we cannot take it as an extension of the previous era. The Great war took place after the formation of Aryan Janapadhams. . It may be better to have a fresh thread bearing relevant title to discuss all these historical roots of our land.

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#23-> Nehru not a historian? Glimpses of World History is a classic. " The New York Times described it as: "... one of the most remarkable books ever written.... Nehru makes even H.G. Wells seem singularly insular..... One is awed by the breadth of Nehru's culture."[3].. And it was written for cultured people with open mind. and respect for study.

harimau
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by harimau »

sankark wrote: 01 Jan 2018, 23:18
Though it is news to me that Jawaharlal Nehru is considered an historian.
Jawaharlal Nehru was not only a historian, he is a scientist, economist, and everything else of the highest order!

In India, you can question Mahatma Gandhi but not Jawaharlal Nehru.

Once upon a time, there wasn't much use for diesel oil and it was cheap but polluting.

But it was decreed that diesel should forever be cheaper than petrol and thus far in India it is. The result is our country is choking with pollution.

By 1980, Singapore for instance reversed that and diesel is more expensive than petrol there. The result is that you have clean air in Singapore.

In India, people are condemned to breathe the emissions of diesel vehicles.

People's health is not as important as holding on to the dictates of Nehru. The Congresswallahs would condemn Indians to a miserable life and even more miserable death because we dare not challenge Nehru.

[/rant over]

PS. In the US, on a recent trip I noticed diesel was more expensive than petrol. And it always has been, except during the oil shock of the early 1970s, when they also succumbed to the madness and GM even made a few diesel cars. And they do use diesel for household and industrial heating but you don't see black smoke coming out of the exhaust of the oil-fired heaters because those furnaces are maintained properly unlike the diesel vehicles in India.

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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

@16->RSR The historiography reeks of all Marxist classification which denies any common thread or underlying commonality. All cults, primitive!

Recognition of fertility and creation is the first grand understanding of the self - marching it did towards the conscious. Not some sermon giver that mounts the mound and gives commandments - proclaiming himself to be the messenger of god!

It is very much like how this post Nehruvian Marxist historian writes:

http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/12/2 ... la-thapar/

Mahabharata and Ramayana were civilizational symbhols, it seems, but later become Vaishnavite "religious" texts! She counts percentages of people - as to how many were brahmin. And philosphy is a projection for her - non existent. But we have to apply that to her own ideology - as to what is the percentage of polit-bureau members who hold sway and command the proletariat!

No lady! - Ramayana and Mahabharata were the lost history of Germanic noble warrior men riding horses whose noble story of valor and conquest were unfortunately philosophized by the minority Brahmins. Did you consult German Indologists when you wrote that?

Buddhism it seems is ecclesiastical - like Church - not adyAtmic or yogic where a practitioner is under his own self control and observances.

And these diverse set of people don't have a unified "religious" identity goes the argument. All biased by language inflicted from outside the land. The word "language" loses its meaning.

Nitwit!!

Philosophy is written always by one or two and debated by a few others - but it is based on how everybody else lived so far and continue to live by - not something that is a truth only on the day it is proposed and not something that appears in the stupidity of kindergartners and then gets imposed with violence!

So we the liberty minded are called materialists - but those obsessed with materialism are these brain machines, who are always worried about the social condition of bodies - not people!

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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

harimau wrote: 02 Jan 2018, 06:27 The result is that you have clean air in Singapore.
Singapore , Dubai, Davos - all post colonial outposts - or financial accretion posts - for all the rich who are taxed at the highest rate to convince the proletariat of the benevolence of the French Republic , but in actuality the tax is a deposit. It is then siphoned off to tax havens and used among many other things to fund chairs in Oxford , Harvard and Ivy leagues , to buy influence - whose kindergartners in the social-illogy write stuff - which even the funding sources don't function or live by - for the consumption of leaders of the proletariat in the third world, so they hold sway over the masses.

History repeats itself - but only European history repeats itself - it repeats itself under time reversal also - back into the past - once you run the video tape of the colonized backwards! Time symmetrical! The aboriginal and the pagans don't have history - they are just myths and their stories are mythical legendary folklore.

Have you read a book called if you want to rob a bank - own one!!

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

#27-> Mere verbiage...... I have many times, reiterated that I follow Jawaharlal Nehru , who made the Best Synthesis of all that was good in all the countries and faiths. and a true follower of the Rug Vedic slogan that one might be familiar with. 'aano bhadhra krathavanthu viswathaha''. Let noble thoughts come from all directions of the world. and the noble thoughts include the Sermon on the Mount. just as the teachings at Saranath. It also includes the Communist Manifesto. Marx himself in his writings on India, speaks of the 'communist type ' of common ownership. under the term Oriental mode of production. Russia also had the same type of ownership. ... Refer the famous exchange of letters between Vera Zasulitch and Marx. Vera and Russian Revolutionary Social democrats maintained that common ownership and abolition of private property is not new in Russian 'mir' and hence Russia can pass from feudalism to Socialism without the bourgeois interregnum.
In the very early times of Aryan settlements in the Gangetic plains, the huge forests had to be cleared. and just as in the days of the Wild West in the Yankee world, gun toting, hipsters could lay claim to vast tracts of land in the West Of USA and exterminate the Apache. ( see the film 'Blue Moon'). That was the pattern in Australia and Newzeland as well. All this is VERY RECENT history. but I am talking about 1500 or slightly earlier period ( of course BC). An enterprising group of people would clear the forest and create a farming community. Naturally , it was a clan . So would other clans. Each such village was self-governing. and led by elders of the community. The land was tilled in common and even irrigation works were carried out by 'sram dhaan'. 'kudi maraamatthu'. in tamil. When kingdoms were formed, the State levied just one sixth of the produce as tax. ( for protecting the village from local and alien marauders). King was not the owner. Some were elected kings. and many were republics too. Statecraft demands that Royalty is hereditary and has a hallow of divinity. A valorous and just King protects his people. and leads personally in war risking his own life. ( Krushna deva Raya 1500 AD ..contemporary of Purandhara dasa. is reported by Venetian visitor of having such war-scars all over.) Naturally, a just king is equivalent to a God. .. Nammaazhvaar sings 'When I see such a king, I see God'. .Marx speaks of a typical village settlement ( around 1800 AD) as being almost self-sustaining and services by calendar brahmin) astrologer) , the village priest, medicine man, carpenter, and so on. They were paid their share of produce by the panchayath. . Brahmins led a very austere life , almost totally immersed in their ordained duties. as mentioned by Tolkaappiyam. ' performing fire worship, helping others in such worship, learning and teaching, getting grants in appreciation of their excellence and in turn giving to needy generously. . The were hence respected by the nobility and laity as well. My birth place had entire streets of lawyers and teachers, and they were universally admired and respected though many of the teachers were very poor. . In Tanjore belt, a few brilliant scholars were given huge land grant by the monarchs. It simply meant that the people need pay the one sixth directly to the village brahmin sabaa than to the state and king. . Once again, I reiterate , ' do not brand Marxism on the formula understanding of Indian Marxists. Nehru understood better. .. The hostility to my perception is predictable from the black shirt and saffron gang.

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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

#29 - RSR I have to say you are using Indian Wisdom to re-read Marx. That is not how so called paid scholars are reading it. When Indian experience is there to understand by its own language , I don't know why we need to create an Aura around Marx to understand it.

Are there Marxists waiting to be won over to our side?

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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

Sachi_R » 01 Jan 2018, 22:49
RSR,
We are surely living up to the "argumentative" part!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely , Lokamanya Tilak was not an illiterate bigot,
The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a history book on the origin of Aryanic People by Bal Gangadhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during the pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of Europe and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory, Tilak presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail.The book was written at the end of 1898, but was first published in March 1903 in Pune.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arcti ... _the_Vedas

https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

We cannot use personalities and their perceptive greatness ( I do view them as great) as a deciding factor.

There is now a genetic research underway and lets see what that says if at all if it says anything conclusive. The story kept changing. But I am not averse to a story of drifting population from anywhere - but as per current genetics as well as the itihasa, some groups combining with some others seems right. We just can't tell the timeline. It could be more continuous over a longer time frame.

If vEdic people came from outside , their tradition as we know now is mostly Oral and they were not the operating civilization until kingdoms were established. So would not have left much in terms of archaeological evidence, even if they were drifting and combining since 6000 BC.

The operating civilization for millenia at that time is any one of the pre-existing civilizations - Druids, Druhyus. Either it is with the nature of those people or lack of technology to control, or the fact that these arose in the forests instead of the desert, they coexisted and all attributes of the pre-existing civilizations are still alive today! vEdic people have been absorbed into the practices of druhyus / Druids.

The thing I don't particularly like is this:

http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/12/2 ... somok-roy/

Now she says there were no nation states - but she was peddling invasion theories before. She is using Marxist method of inquiry - which is not science.
Worse it did not even predict the Post modern wave or the Germany during Nazi era! Frankfurt school now tries to resuscitate the theory using aestheticization of power and Sanskrit being the cause of it.

Marxism is the steward of diversities - the processor into which the natives are fed as data! What a load of crock!! She critiques binaries - but forgets that it is all the Abrahamic tradition followed by Marxism that is constructed on Binaries. The current Hindutva based on a single book Ram Charitmanas is a consequential Binary.

Rationality is being reduced to axiomatic consistency. Einstein built nice consistent theories using symmetry, beauty and consistency , the rest of the scientific community simply ignored him. He was a loner in Princeton.

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

So here is a binary Secular-religious thrown by Marxists in their fight with various forces in the colonial period.

http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/10/1 ... ttacharya/

As the post itself explains - who has the problem? This binary - where even the title is somewhat subversive - has been imposed onto everything here.

There is a great bending over backwards effort to accommodate the dogmas of the religions and pamper their identity mindset that is not based on civilizational identity like Western, American, European, African but something insidious.

That's right - we should de-recognize them as civilizations as they de-recognized us as a religion anyways!

The dance is not secular - as it is sacred. It is not religious as it goes through introspection every generation between teacher and student. Everything else is a cultural expectation based on what the people involved want!

The Japanese Odissi dancer knows this innately - but the Indian Left has used this to pamper the clerics and the church and subvert everything.

Some people read English with Dictionary , as they do with Sanskrit also.

As I pointed out elsewhere : if you get educated in English medium as a first generation , you tell your parents they don't know English. That is how much nitwit, people are.

harimau
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by harimau »

RSR wrote: 02 Jan 2018, 21:29
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely , Lokamanya Tilak was not an illiterate bigot,
The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a history book on the origin of Aryanic People by Bal Gangadhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during the pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of European and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory, Tilak presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars.....
My nephew loves this book.

According to him, since the sun is hanging around the North Pole for 6 months at a time, there was only one sunrise and one has to do sandhya vandanam only once a year. The rest of the time was spent in drinking soma liquor.

He has put that into practice!

I can't say that I disagree with him. The whole idea is so agreeable! :lol:

sankark
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by sankark »

harimau wrote: 03 Jan 2018, 18:57
RSR wrote: 02 Jan 2018, 21:29
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely , Lokamanya Tilak was not an illiterate bigot,
The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a history book on the origin of Aryanic People by Bal Gangadhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during the pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of European and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory, Tilak presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars.....
My nephew loves this book.

According to him, since the sun is hanging around the North Pole for 6 months at a time, there was only one sunrise and one has to do sandhya vandanam only once a year. The rest of the time was spent in drinking soma liquor.

He has put that into practice!

I can't say that I disagree with him. The whole idea is so agreeable! :lol:
harimau, what an injustice! Twice at least - prAdha and sAyam - right? :lol: Am discounting mAdhyAhnikam for now.

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

harimau!! :lol: , the path to experiencing and knowing the conscious is riddled with all kinds of experimentation under the sun, or around the sun or sun going around :lol: . Proves that there was No Garden! ;)

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

I have the greatest respect for Tilak. But
Even Harimau's nephew will face the freezing of round objects at the North Pole.
Even polar bears, who hibernate 6 months a year (a bit like NRI outside of the Season) are starving to death at the North Pole due to scarcity of seal meat, you can imagine what Aryans would be doing.
And by doing too much Agnihotram, they would have started the process we now call global warming.

What Soma juice. You need to make it in the fertile regions of lower Himalayas.

Nephew should visit a good place on the Bangalore Madras Highway. Lots of Soma juice round the year.

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

And he may catch a Carnatic number as well there ! ;)

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Now that the mug rasam season is over - how is the next "smug" rasam season coming? I mean the nATya kala conference!

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Wow - immersion!! It is a bucket or a tub full! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnJvpBNgGuI

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

The moment I clicked your link, I saw a very fat Devdutt (lots of TV moolah). It would take a Michigan lake to immerse him. But well worth a thought.

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Or it could be a pool in the backyard of his brain mom - Wendy's pool - she is in Chicago! If pool is not sufficient , lake is the next step! All of his speech is Wendy's child syndrome!

As he said she is the crude ( and she delivers raw to her audience across America!) and he refines it for our (Indian) consumption. Without crude he cannot do the refinement. We need to open up more areas for drilling and fracking here in America.

Our NRI(s) are just too eager to fund this as well with their capital - feeding the crocodiles:

https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2016/ ... y-sanskrit

But those consuming this kool-aid would not know that the doyens of Dravidian politics would with impish glee write as to what sort of stories the upanyaskas actually narrate! So before delivering this kool-aid to us , the convener should ask her family members to reach out to the alliance partners!

The current rhetorician who talks from that movement actually was more decent - Rig-vEda he said is nice poetry, but asks for rains and food - nothing too profound!

Devdutt-Myth tries the Mohini trick on twiteratti to take the amRtam to his devas! We are supposed to shut up!

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 02 Jan 2018, 21:29 In support to his theory, Tilak presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail.
There is now an effort to read Indus script in a metallurgical context. sOma yAgna describes iron smelting is what this researcher is upto.

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2018/ ... -daya.html

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

https://www.quora.com/What-were-3-ways- ... dic-people

------------
some excerpts.->"By the time Vedic people crossed Mittani, down from the Ural steppes, IVC had almost at the tail end of its presence in the Indus Valley further down south.The Mittani tablets in cuneiform script in proto Sanskrit as well as Avestan dated to about 1300 BC, attest to this.It was all about horses and horse training with Vedic Aryans.
Image
And cow was never glorified in IVC. The name of a seal depicting a person sitting in a particular posture had been termed as a Pasupathy seal, by early zealots.(RSR...adds.. pasu does not mean here 'cow. but animals )

This is akin to naming the Ashoka time scripts as Brahmi scripts. In fact Indo Aryan Sanskrit never had a script of its own, and must have been named as Dravidian script!
--Number two will be the burial practices. Aryans cremated their dead. The IVC people buried their dead. We still have evidences of human remains and genetic evidences have never proved an Aryan identity to the IVC people.
Third will be the urban planning and water management engineering expertise of IVC civilization.The Aryans were nomads and wanderers, and their dress code was totally different. IVC people used fine cotton, whereas Aryans used, skins, hides and wool..here are glaring differences like the Black and Red pottery of the IVC and Painted Grey Ware of Aryans.

The IVC people belong the Indian Subcontinent and they are much more ancient than the Vedic Aryans. Vedic Aryans who had migrated down the Ural steppes share their early history with Avestan and Iranians. Vedic Ayrans and Iranians of yore are from the same root.
=============
Long back, I read a good book titled 'Arya Tarangini.'. What I liked in the book was its narration of so many aryan
'sanskritic' states in the middle-east and perpetual conflict between the already existing states there and the aryan migration from central asia. .. It was very informative and intersting read. Mr.Saachi_R may find it useful.

Vedic Aryans have their own unique history of oral and literary traditions, never substantiated by any Archaeological evidences.

IVC people were an earlier civilization of the Bronze age Indian Sub Continent, whereas the Vedic Aryan people are later day Iron age migrants from far off lands."
----

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

Here is the rejoinder to Mittani dating etc.

https://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2017 ... laced.html

Sachi_R
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by Sachi_R »

I am amazed that so many scholars with more papers under their name than a self-respecting paper weight in a government office busy themselves with such recycled tripe year after year only to be quoted and posted in blogs and forums in utter desecration of all truth.

I am personally privy to the original wisdom.

Aryans lived first on the South pole. Since it was a bit cold there they needed a stiff drink and penguin urine would no longer suffice. So they built a ship, moved up to a lively place where nice hot drinks grew on trees. That was Australia. If you study the etymology carefully, it translates to modern English and Tamil as Extra Illeya?
Any self-respecting Indologist knows that the sacred direction to move on is the North. Rama suffered badly by moving south. Much like an Anil Ambani stock.

The Aryans needed now some hot food. They travelled further to Sri Lanka for some Vindaloo.

Once they built the Rama Setu (yes they even collected Toll long before Rama ventured on it), they entered a large food basket or a basket case called Dravidia. Actually etymologically it means The India.

After that they had a lot of fun. The latest evidence for it is the IPL.

Whistle Podu was their original war cry.

shankarank
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

With humor interlude for attention span relief - lets continue the main story line on the paper-weighters!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painted_Grey_Ware_culture
Recently, the University of Cambridge and Banaras Hindu University excavated at Alamgirpur near Delhi, where sample OxA-21882 showed a calibrated radiocarbon dating from 2136 BC to 1948 BCE for PGW levels, overlapping Mature Harappan phase at the site, suggesting PGW early phases are much older than previously thought.[22] Confirmation of this early PGW came when a team of the Archaeological Survey of India led by B.R. Mani and Vinay Kumar Gupta collected charcoal samples from Gosna, a site 6 km east of Mathura across the Yamuna river where two radiocarbon dates from the PGW deposit came out to be 2160 BCE and 2170 BCE.[23]
And here is the full reference cited:

https://www.academia.edu/7025503/Early_ ... y_N._Delhi

RSR
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Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by RSR »

As I understand... 1) It so happens that the middle-east ( present day.. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, and Iran , and Indus valley (present day, Pakisthan) have been acknowledged as the earliest major civilizations. namely Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Indus valley civilizations. The dates would be around 3500 BC. For want of a better name, we can call them Dravidian civilization. .Idol worship, sacrifice to propitiate the many gods and goddesses, and temple culture and priestly class , can be said to be distinct features. Sun and Moon worship also was prevalent. as belief in astrology and objects of worship in Iraq. ( Mesopotamia).. Kosambi states that the earliest was in Palestine area. (7000 BC). . We have seen pictures of Durga with Lion. Such an imagery exists in Sumeria also. A.C.DAS suggests that Central Iraq ( Chaldea) is the Chozha kingdom , Northern Iraq and Syria ( Assyria).
was Chera kingdom. ( Nebuchadnezer . ) and the Southern Iraq ( Sumerian) was Pandyan kingdom. To complete the picture, there was a famous Elamite civilization also with capital at Susa. ( soosai?). . Nilakanta Sastry finds Trimalai somewhere near northern Turkey, the only place which comes closest to Tamil. We all know, that the Swat valley has a population speaking 'dravidian' language. It is in north Pakisthan-Afganisthan area. ( of Malala fame).
https://archive.org/details/AHistoryOfSouthIndiaPDF
That the Aryans came from some place in North-Central Asia , is the opinion of great many famous historians and Linguists. . Edward Jones among them, the founder of Royal Asiatic Society. and that Sanskrit, Greek and Latin had a common language root also has been accepted. It is fallacious to limit the migration, conflicts, intermingling and assimilation of the ideas and practices of these three famous 'Southern Civilizations' by the immigrants from Central Asia. it extended from Caspian sea down wards into the Middle-East...
Let us not confuse Aryans with Brahmins. It is quite possible that the brahmins were the original priestly class of IVC, and all kshathriyas and Vis ( free peasants) were the incoming Aryan groups through the North western passes. Even in Buddhist times, Cholas were known as Horse people. and 'munkudumi's ( no insult meant). North Indian historians ( pre-1947) have clearly cited reference to Sibi. and even given the routes of migration of the tamil kings from North india to Far south.
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"James Fergusson connects the Oddiyana country with the Kamboja of the Hindu texts.[20] Indeed, the territories ofKunar, Oddiyana, Swat and Varanaos had been the notable habitats of the Asvaka Kambojas since remote antiquity. The Asvakas were cattle breeders and horse folk and had earned the epithet of Asvakas due to their intimate connections with the Asvas ("horses"). The Sivis, as described by Alexander's historians, "were a shaved-headed people, worshipers of god Shiva, wore clothes made from animal skins, and were warlike people who fought with the clubs...most of these are also the salient characteristics of the ancient Kambojas".
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The southerly movement of the Sivis is also evidenced from their other settlement called Usinara near Yamuna, ruled by Sivi king called Usinara.[31] Sivis also are attested to have one settlement in Sind, another one in Madhyamika (Tambavati Nagri) near Chittore (in Rajputana) and yet another one on the Dasa Kumara-chrita on the banks of the Kaveri in southern India (Karnataka/Tamil Nadu).[32

http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.in/2013/04/ ... mboja.html

For vaishnavaites, the interesting connection is from the banks of Yamuna, Mathsya and Surasena janapadjams , through Rajasthan and Gujarath and Dwaraka, to Madhurai in Pandyan kingdom.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 17 Nov 2017, 23:25 "Mr. Sastry did not speak English as an Englishman would do. But he spoke it as it ought to be spoken."[/color][/b]
Rt. Hon’ble Srinivas Sastry’s speeches took the English men by storm: They listened to his speeches in rapt attention. Under his portrait in Guild Hall of London, the following lines were written:

‘Here is an Indian who taught English to English men!

http://www.yabaluri.org/Web%20(1978%20- ... ul2004.htm
From "The Battle for Sanskrit" By Rajiv Malhotra
A marble frieze located in the chapel of University College, Oxford, reproduced on the cover of the book, shows him sitting on a chair, ..
while three pandits are seated at his feet, wearing traditional clothing... The inscription below hails Jones as the man who 'formed a digest of Hindu and Mohammedan laws' .. Contrary to what really happened - Sir Jones who sat at the feet (figuratively) ...
.........
The monument conveys the impression of Jones as 'law-giver' .. the agenda was to claim to have 'discovered' the laws by which Hindus ought to be governed..
https://rajivmalhotra.com/books/the-bat ... to-engage/

I have not read even that book fully, because I know from experience how things have panned out in the Dravidian politics and the street rhetoric. You should know as well. Instead you are quoting scholars like D D Kosambi who were funded by colonial loot ( cannot even use the word Capitalist here!) using Marxist method! What a load of crock!! There was never an equal society anywhere and never will be - it is utopia. The ideas these rationalists - credit the West for - are from gross inequalities inflicted. This is sick!! Reading loses it's meaning!

But for Indian Army's participation in WW2 , and a parallel subversive effort by Netaji Subash Chandrabose, we will be teaching Englishmen how they ought to speak English. The latter is part of Grandpa myths (like how British ran the country so well!) communicated to every post-udyOgam generation Indian child, that for me was busted by an English teacher in Madura College - yes he did point out how our Grandpas talked!

Yeah we all ought to grace the so called Arts colleges , while waiting for Engineering Entrance results and the admission!!
Last edited by shankarank on 08 Jan 2018, 06:42, edited 3 times in total.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The argumentative and smug Carnatic Rasika

Post by shankarank »

So according to you if the Priestly class was there in IVC, it only appropriated the vEdic liturgy from horse riding nomads for rituals, like how Brahmins have appropriated music from the previous custodians. So there is a class that is a perennial appropriator.

But truth is for ages, Brahmins stuck to their vocation and it was not until they became clerks in the British government that they even learnt these traits!

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