Why people leave at tani

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kvchellappa
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#1 Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

R Ramkumar's FB post:
"The little nephew says playing ringing sounds on mrdangam makes people think that school bell is ringing and they leave."

Sachi_R
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#2 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Good one.

My take:
The Tani Exodus
The Carnatic concert is a big stage,
And the mridangist plays his role.
His beats make my blood race
But his soliloquy I just can't face
Tani,man! He deserves his due privacy!

kvchellappa
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#3 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Maybe, those on stage also must leave!

hnbhagavan
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#4 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

In Bangalore especially the exodus is very high as people mark that their listening to main piece is over.In SRLK Mandira most people are from near by areas and even then rasikas leave.Sachi_R humor is nice,but when you look at it critically this is one of the things which should not happen.
Some times the auditorium will be reduced to half the original number.
Even in chennai recently at Narada gana Sabha,when the exodus started,Ramakrishnan murthy requested people to stay back.

anandasangeetham
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#5 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by anandasangeetham »

Maybe we need another TMK to start a concert with a Tani..

ratanabhinav
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#6 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ratanabhinav »

I feel that people are not very interested in rhythm , hence they leave . They come only for the melody and bhava .

ratanabhinav
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#7 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ratanabhinav »

Sachi_R wrote: 10 Jan 2018, 13:02 Good one.

My take:
The Tani Exodus
The Carnatic concert is a big stage,
And the mridangist plays his role.
His beats make my blood race
But his soliloquy I just can't face
Tani,man! He deserves his due privacy!
:lol: good one

Nick H
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#8 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

The simplest possible answer to the question: because they don't like it. Everything else is only justification.

And there is probably nothing that can be done about that. If they don't like it, they... don't.

kvchellappa
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#9 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Nick, it is like you. Calling a spade a spade. Others are having some fun. That is all. There are some minor reasons like having to catch a conveyance that becomes difficult at late hours. Maybe if the tani is at the middle of a concert, the exodus will be less.

ratanabhinav
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#10 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ratanabhinav »

kvchellappa wrote: 10 Jan 2018, 18:34 Nick, it is like you. Calling a spade a spade. Others are having some fun. That is all. There are some minor reasons like having to catch a conveyance that becomes difficult at late hours. Maybe if the tani is at the middle of a concert, the exodus will be less.
100 % . People mostly look forward to compositions or melody based portions in a concert . They are rather put off by incessant drumming .

Nick H
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#11 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

But... the question arises over and over again!

I have some sympathy with Srimushnan Raja Rao's theory that the thani is diuretic... and it sometimes has that effect on me!

thenpaanan
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#12 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by thenpaanan »

I've wondered if it would take some serious change in the parameters of the tani to keep people from going away. First of all, the difficulty of understanding. Most listeners find tani unintelligible. Second, its length. Because of the first reason listeners may find it just a bit beyond their ability to sit still without being entertained for twenty minutes. Third, the placement. Since the tani is typically located in the second half it signals to the listener that they will not miss much if they escape the tani.

In this day and age even the main alapanai is shrunk and people want easy-to-understand stuff. Why not replace the long tani with multiple short tanis? It would be much like how in spite of the concert being shortened to two hours, then ninety minutes, then barely an hour, the main performer still tries to squeeze in as many pieces as possible by shrinking each individual piece. Why should the tani be an exception?

-T

kvchellappa
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#13 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

There was a mikeless concert and at the end someone commented that it was a 'tani' concert! (I read this somewhere).

Sachi_R
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#14 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Thenpaanan,
I found the way the Tani was played/conducted in Prince Rama Varma's Swathi concert, everyone lapped it up.
1. Mridangam, Ghatam, Konakkol, Mohrsing.
2. Short bursts of riveting phrases by Sri Harikumar, and the Tani opened with the same metrical structure as the main swara refrain phrasing.
2. Colourful soundscapes. Especially Ghatam. Of course Sri Harikumar is also wonderful.
3. The generally respectful demeanour of the audience with very few stragglers and wanderers.

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#15 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »


thenpaanan
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#16 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by thenpaanan »

Sachi_R wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 12:27 Thenpaanan,
I found the way the Tani was played/conducted in Prince Rama Varma's Swathi concert, everyone lapped it up.
1. Mridangam, Ghatam, Konakkol, Mohrsing.
2. Short bursts of riveting phrases by Sri Harikumar, and the Tani opened with the same metrical structure as the main swara refrain phrasing.
2. Colourful soundscapes. Especially Ghatam. Of course Sri Harikumar is also wonderful.
3. The generally respectful demeanour of the audience with very few stragglers and wanderers.
Yes, I witnessed this in the Prince's concert here in Phoenix last year. It was quite riveting as you say. The concert was a huge success here but I did not want to extrapolate since audience behavior here could be different from back in India.

One thing that came through that is unusual for a Carnatic concert was the extensive preparation the team had made. The accompanists knew what they were going to play in terms of these interludes so they easily fell in step whenever the opportunity arose. In a way they functioned like the instrument ensembles in popular film music programs. Similarly the singer knew when to give the accompanists the space to play out these parts. These things go against the general ethos of the Carnatic concert where, at least in theory, you can pick a random combination of three or more musicians and they get on stage and provide a captivating performance without any prior practice together.

I liked the format tremendously for the reasons you mention, namely the new dimension of amplifying the cadence of the song in the rhythmic accompaniment and the soundscapes that come with that. Perhaps that can be developed even more into mini-thani's.

There will be people who complain about the practiced aspect of the presentation (I find the complaint unreasonable personally). But the world is changing, and the quality of the overall sound matters these days just as much as the content.

I suspect that the Prince's format is the future of Carnatic concerts but it will probably take a very long time for it to become mainstream (or should I say "mylai-stream"?).

-T

shankarank
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#17 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 00:31 (or should I say "mylai-stream"?)
That is quite a poignant analogy. Why can't it stay as a pure Kerala river emptying itself into Arabian sea like karamanai ARu? :twisted: :lol:

shankarank
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#18 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

I think I started this tani walkout complaint ( in recent times) in the HM sweeter than CM thread - as a measure of aesthetics, but like everything else it has turned into the enjoyment of sounds or Rhythym or some drumming.

The question should be posed as a general structural / metaphysical question. For music to be made , do we need to wait until notes/harmonics are sounded or can music start at the level of intervals - like between two syllables. Now lets not take it to the level silence, meditation, states of consciousness, yoga etc. - lets stay at TMK domain - bodily, tactile , fleshy, vervy , veiny , neuronic - for e.g. like brain can sense intervals!

Can we not discuss these at an infantile level, as to how a child might cognitize music? Where language, bhakti, bhava have not made into cognition!

I asked this question as to the musical significance of syllabic intervals - now after an era of tyagarAja , dikshitar and SyAma Sastry - to a particular connoisseur from Tambram-dom who is the only one other than me to consider Dr BMK as a carnatic musician. The entire music group members who sing , with quite a sophistication all the forms, Alapana, neraval, svarams, don't seem to ever mention his name in any sharing of music appreciation. He himself confirmed to me that only he and me enjoy Dr BMK's music in Dallas, within Tambram-dom.

But then he himself dismissed the idea several years back. He would stay at the level of conventional wisdom, that only pitches or pitch intervals make for music.. and CM means a rAgA!

To say that a detailed lakshana spec., when executed creates music - is somewhat self defeating - when a large body of rasikas do enjoy music at various levels, with no particular regard to lakshana.

Lakshana's significance is more towards sustaining a tradition, a factor in Guru Shishya conversation.

An entire generation of musicians have included ThukkaDas where a section of Audience still sat through the concert waiting for those.

Coming back to Mridangam, it is not about what is doled out in a tani, structurally, mathematically, but it is a good model representative for syllabic diversity - i.e. before we get to the fact that it aligns with Sruti, we have to recognize the fact that it has more syllabic diversity in terms consonantal stress , vallinam (hard) and mellinam (soft) etc.,

I.E. it is a better example than lets say a Ghatam, or kanjira, or Morsing, to use in a questions like: "Do syllabic intervals make music?" "Do alternating syllabic stresses make music?"

In order to not sound abstract - I posed the question as : "is Mridangam music?" in a concrete way.

And this need not be taken as "people have to stay for tani!" . But rather use the fact that they leave, to then ask what all were they enjoying as music until they left?!

kunthalavarali
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#19 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kunthalavarali »

Laya is probably the most difficult part of CM to understand. One doesn't need any knowledge of raga to appreciate alapana, swara prasthara, niraval and of course the song itself. Harmony and melody seem to suffice. So what is missing in tani? Even though percussion in unison with vocal, violin, flute, veena, nadaswaram etc is thoroughly enjoyed?

balavenu
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#20 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by balavenu »

The question here can be generalized.

Take for instance the response of the audience when reasonably deep manodharma is being performed. I've often found a significant number in the audience mentally leave the performance. It shows in the form of lack of attention, fidgeting with or without their gadgets, etc.

In other words, whatever people have not been trained to recognize or understand doesn't have the capacity to hold their attention. Some folks are curious about what happens and over a period develop an ability to recognize structured complexity much better than others; others resign themselves to inattention.

Educating the rasikas will definitely help. Am not sure if there is enough video or audio material that dissects an entire thani, be it that of a mridangam or a thavil. I personally still find thavil kanakkus more difficult to grasp -- thavil vidwans seem to think in very different structures.

Similarly, am not sure if there's material that helps people understand the complexities of manodharma in vocal or instrumental music. From my interaction with performing musicians I see a sort of consensus among them that goes something like "whenever you come up with anything remotely non-trivial it is likely that only a very small number in the audience recognize and appreciate it".

One may extend some of these thoughts even to the beauty and structure of compositions, not just manodharma.

Sachi_R
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#21 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Bala, you're so right. I am making the same offer to you as I did to a mutual friend...
Let us make a Youtube video interview, where we play a famous vidwan's or a very good contemporary record of a Tani, and parse it... Piece by piece, and explain in a conversation the way it is structured and its beauty. We can play a bit, and explain what's happening. You can be the expert, and I will play myself, the ignoramus.
We need to do this a lot. Even for the complex RTPs etc. I think the more knowledgeable rasikas owe it to others.
Anuja Kamat is doing a splendid job on You Tube about Hindustani music.
One of the banes of rasika discussions and demos is that the presenter starts going into ecstasies, starts telling how he carried Mani Iyer's mridangam once in Egmore station, how Bade Gulam Ali Khan used to tie his turban etc. A good lec-dem needs a teacher's structured imparting of information with only a modicum of personal/emotional add-ons.

balavenu
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#22 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by balavenu »

Sachi, I have been thinking about it quite often. There can be much fun and information in bringing laymen and artists of different schools together. Basic deconstruction can be for the lay audience while advanced ones could be questions asked by one school to another as they deconstruct __one specific__ performance.

It pains an open-minded rasika to see a school not spending enough effort to understand another school simply painting it into a certain characterization that's more a caricature than a considered response to a specific performance.

It is kind of counter-intuitive and interesting that one also loses information as one is more exposed. As I form more opinions I also start getting distracted by what I don't like in something, so I don't fully open myself to what's being performed. Some examples: a rasika who doesn't like over-use of brighas cannot notice a bright idea because he was already in reaction to an overdose; a rasika who doesn't like the tone of an instrument may not appreciate patently good content, and so on.

Ranganayaki
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#23 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 09:21 Bala, you're so right. I am making the same offer to you as I did to a mutual friend...
Let us make a Youtube video interview, where we play a famous vidwan's or a very good contemporary record of a Tani, and parse it... Piece by piece, and explain in a conversation the way it is structured and its beauty. We can play a bit, and explain what's happening. You can be the expert, and I will play myself, the ignoramus.
I think the more knowledgeable rasikas owe it to others.

A good lec-dem needs a teacher's structured imparting of information with only a modicum of personal/emotional add-ons.
This is such a great idea, it would be so welcome! Please implement it. I've always wished to have something like that, but have not had the opportunity to discuss a Tani with anyone knowledgeable.

I wonder if it would be acceptable for other artists to pick up a mike and quickly and inobtrusively point out technical features to the audience, like Nadai changes or korvai patterns, or the entry into a specific stage of the tani that may have a name. They could do this, instead of saying,"UUuuhmm," "Sabash," etc.

Sachi_R
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#24 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Bala,
I am referring to a tani avartanam like this one:
https://youtu.be/I62YqIZ3PTU?t=22m00s

Sri Mani Iyer plays a tani for a few minutes. The audio is quite good.

I wish someone would segment the tani and discuss it. Today we can do all this very easily. It should be done using the video with explanation for each chosen segment, in a dialogue fashion.

kvchellappa
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#25 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Mudra Bhaskar did a serial on this in Podhikai TV for a year or so, taking from fundamentals.

rajeshnat
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#26 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rajeshnat »

Vasanthakokilam
DO you recollect a thread where Mannarkoil balaji (id is mridhangam) used to explain the different segments of tani avarthanam . I recollect J balaji writing a long post with you asking writing and interpreting with right questions . I am not able to chase that thread in this jungle . Can you recollect that and post that link here.

parivadini
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#27 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by parivadini »

Sachi_R wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 13:53 Bala,
I am referring to a tani avartanam like this one:
https://youtu.be/I62YqIZ3PTU?t=22m00s

Sri Mani Iyer plays a tani for a few minutes. The audio is quite good.

I wish someone would segment the tani and discuss it. Today we can do all this very easily. It should be done using the video with explanation for each chosen segment, in a dialogue fashion.
One such analysis by K.S.Kalidas on a thani played by PSP (Tha famous thani after a GNB Brocheva) used to be available in this site vidvan.com (it had a bunch of links to MMI and Mali too). If I'm not wrong, this site was hosted by Shri.VKV. I am not able to trace it anymore. I should have downloaded and saved it as I had meticulously saved anything and everything I could lay my hands upon on PSP as part of my research for the book on PSP.

I'll wait for someone to reproduce that link here. If that doesn't happen, I shall find it and upload on soundcloud,

Sachi_R
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#28 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

God bless!

Sachi_R
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#29 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

#22
Bala,
Yes. It is not so counterintuitive if we state music and musical appreciation in classical music is an acquired, intellectual response.
All intellectualism is a big example of Maya because we relate and describe the universe in our own terms and biases. And we are smug about it. There is a vulnerability in exposing oneself to new ideas.
A family member, a highly trained classical dancer, almost never dances in parties, and seriously looks down on our free-flowing limb loosening we call dancing. For her it is anathema.
But I think she is missing some very good, very basic, fun.

jshrikanth
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#30 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by jshrikanth »

rajeshnat wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 16:05 Vasanthakokilam
DO you recollect a thread where Mannarkoil balaji (id is mridhangam) used to explain the different segments of tani avarthanam . I recollect J balaji writing a long post with you asking writing and interpreting with right questions . I am not able to chase that thread in this jungle . Can you recollect that and post that link here.
Rajeshnat: is it this one titled 'Structuring a Korvai in the thani': viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2359
It is a Sticky at the top of the Tala&Laya section.

Excellent thread, with great discussions and explanations by Sri Balaji.
I have been trying to go through the explanations, but need multiple reads of each post to understand. :)

Nick H
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#31 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

Guys, guys (and guesses, of course), this is not even an Indian problem.

Even Deadheads used to run to the bar, in dozens, when their "thani" started.

kvchellappa
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#32 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

deleted

Sachi_R
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#33 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

WOULD YOU EVER WALK OUT OF SUCH A TANI?
Image

Click the pic and watch!

kvchellappa
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#34 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

This thani has been recommended as interesting esp. "Morsing by Bhagyalakshmi is standing out."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_rbFYT ... e=youtu.be

shankarank
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#35 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

kvc, for a long time I was waiting to post that - you made it first! - thanks.

Yeah we only need a tabla artiste make tani interesting. This is a familiar rap - if you are good and competent then people will not leave for tani.

Did too many people leave for this tani? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3y5g_tl7E - Probably not.

Same venue - same Mridangist - replace the singer with a YACM artiste - people left in droves!!! I know the YACM artistes brought lot of new Audience to listen to music - contrary to what has been claimed by one of them!! - actually. So there is a positive narrative in seeing people leaving during tani as well!!

Well in that sense I have no regrets!!!

thanjavooran
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#36 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by thanjavooran »

Sachi and KVC. Many thanks for the links. Excellent Thani by UKS and Neiyveli company.
Quite enjoyable. IMO the main artiste before commencement of RTP or main song which is to be followed by Thani should deliberately make an appeal to Rasikas to leave before the start of the main piece itself and definitely not before Thani which will be an insult to the percussion artistes. This is my personal opinion.
In Perambur Sabha there will be only 35 to 40 rasikas and all will sit till the end this I have noticed since more than 50 years.
Thanjavooran
17 01 2018

shankarank
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#37 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

thanjavooran wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 20:24 Thani should deliberately make an appeal to Rasikas to leave before the start of the main piece itself and definitely not before Thani which will be an insult to the percussion artistes
No .. why ask for sympathy vote?! The sangItam all through from varNam should reflect a laya pragnya or laya consciousness. We should expect that of artistes who make forays into grand pallavis especially.

Prescriptive from now on - so pardon me for a while:

A Pallavi makes no sense if this consciousness is not there throughout! A neraval does not make sense either. Svara prastara may be - a consolation give away.

kAla pramaNa shuddham, tala perfection are not enough - and sometimes the former could be turned into a cosmetic technical requirement - for e.g people could say, Sri Semmangudi speeds up without realizing the context in which that was done. People many times, over time, forget his proportion of intonation, gamaka control , kArvai control in a kriti rendition.

Sadly this could not be taken for granted during the YACM era , with many artistes considered as traditional singers, even excepting popularity oriented artistes.

If that is not their staple, artistes should tailor their performance and speed to a different flavor and render kritis nicely , and add padams & javaLis if they are able to vocalize those. If not simply do other devotional items! A tani may not be a requirement in such a concert - so a tani main piece is not required as well! Engage a Mridangist who will not feel aggrieved , at the same time supports them nicely in these items.

A Laya conscious artiste also should have the courage to shorten other items, do one VaRNam or one Kriti , either one with svaraprastara and launch into a pallavi. If that is not a viable proposition, then doing a lot of smaller/similar items and then a belated main item for tani's sake is not good. Do less number of semi-elaborate items in diff tALA flavors. If Mridangist feels like doing a short tani on any one of them, let them do it. Multiple short tanis could then be possible.

Reorient commercial circuit this way! The older test cricket format can be done in a temple concert in afternoons for 4 hours - with floating audiences to keep the sAdhaka balam alive. Or to special audiences when opportunities arise.

If we want respect for a Mridanga tani, it should have scope to shine from the start on wards. Listeners will develop taste for that organically and slowly!

That to me is a honest music.

hnbhagavan
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#38 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

Now that you are looking at Clippings,Here is one i posted some time back.Umayalapuram Sivaraman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_BdclZBiJI

SrinathK
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#39 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

One only needs to see how many singers, who were unknown when they were singing heavy classical stuff, got exponentially popular after singing short tukkadas to see what the real problem is about. That's what most people come there for. The rest are just waiting for the main piece to end so that they can run home asap. I say that much of this is the audience culture, they do not sit back and respect the percussionists or care to. That's the number 1 reason, a total lack of regard for the tani.

I also feel that sometimes the whole art of percussion playing has become more mathematical over time than organic - the trick I observe almost all percussionists using today is to take everything that makes sense at normal speed and play it 2x or 4x faster - I have slowed down many a tani of many an artiste and realized that that's the trick. It's an exercise in confounding at times.

Some slower segments and some announcement of what they are going to do before they start a segment of tani will be very helpful. Maybe they could focus on one or two elements of what's out there and present that, and the audience could pay attention to what they're doing. They can start simple or end simple, if they go complex after presenting something simpler, no one will mind.

The audience at a technical level will have issues with handling 3/4 or 1 1/2 (deshAdi) or 2/7 eDuppus (mishra chApu), because the pattern ends between 2 beats and not on the beat. Well, that really can't be helped.

For its part, the tani avartanam's main issue is communication - they just get straight to playing and a lot of stuff they do just goes unsaid (and over the heads of the audience), or is put out of range of the rasikas' rhythmic capabilities. We had an all rhythm concert by Ghatam Karthik and co at IITM, and one thing he did was to get us involved into the clapping and tapping. Ok, I concede that may only be possible in all rhythm concerts, but percussionists can help a lot if they communicate what they are playing to the audience.

Perhaps they can have a segment where they play in a tala of their choice (I think that has been done). But people's attitudes to rhythm must change, and the tani avartanam must try to get a little more organic as a living experience rather than the art of confusion-fu.
Last edited by SrinathK on 05 Aug 2018, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

talalaya
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#40 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by talalaya »

Very simply, the issue Can be pointed both ways!

From the Audience side- It is a question of basic manners! When you can sit for 2 hours, why not for additional 10 mins as a mark of respect for the accompanists, even if you dont completely understand the intricacies involved, as if they understand all the intricacies that was sung so far? (If the Thani avarthanam goes on & on, then its different).

From the Artists' side - If one can't play an impressive/ effective Thani avarthanam within 8-10 mins ( or 15 mins max if ghatam/kanjira/ morsing is present), then there is no way they would be able to do it over half an hour or three hours.

The Pharans remind the audience of the sound of waterfalls and suddenly they remember the need to replicate that????

shankarank
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#41 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 12:17 One only needs to see how many singers, who were unknown when they were singing heavy classical stuff, got exponentially popular after singing short tukkadas to see what the real problem is about. That's what most people come there for. The rest are just waiting for the main piece to end so that they can run home asap. I say that much of this is the audience culture, they do not sit back and respect the percussionists or care to. That's the number 1 reason, a total lack of regard for the tani.
We are not talking about any general audience anywhere else etc. We are talking about the audience in the Mecca , in the age of enlightenment. They have a continuing responsibility and they are the reference. Many musicians retort saying : "all venues are equal to them" when told their xyz concert @ abc venue in Mylapore was good. That is good attitude, but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.

This cannot happen there!

Especially important when we start discussing things like "art" music. Away from it's content and "lyrics"! Any discussion on "art" music should be suspended until we resolve this issue!

uday_shankar
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#42 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:20but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.
Welcome to reality pal.. maybe the emperor's not wearing any clothes. Think about the Thanjavur district today... if you go visiting every hallowed CM kshetra ... Thiruvarur, Thanjavur, Tiruvaiyaru, Valadi, Sathanur, Konerirajapuram, Tiruvidaimarudur, Palamaneri,.... you'll be hard pressed to find a handful of people conversant with CM leave alone with deep ruminations about it. it is a cultural desert. The only saving grace are the nagasvaram/thavil vidvans left in the area but most of them too are very "filmy" and have a repertoire that peaks with raghuvamsasudha and averages with film songs. Many of them play atrociously too...

So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?

SrinathK
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#43 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43
shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:20but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.
Welcome to reality pal.. maybe the emperor's not wearing any clothes. Think about the Thanjavur district today... if you go visiting every hallowed CM kshetra ... Thiruvarur, Thanjavur, Tiruvaiyaru, Valadi, Sathanur, Konerirajapuram, Tiruvidaimarudur, Palamaneri,.... you'll be hard pressed to find a handful of people conversant with CM leave alone with deep ruminations about it. it is a cultural desert. The only saving grace are the nagasvaram/thavil vidvans left in the area but most of them too are very "filmy" and have a repertoire that peaks with raghuvamsasudha and averages with film songs. Many of them play atrociously too...

So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
Totally agree that you will find more serious audiences elsewhere than in the Meccas. Here too many things get taken for granted.

What you say applies to just about everything else about us Indians and our (lack of) awareness and civic sense in general. I do not know if you've driven a vehicle in this corner of the universe these days - the insanity defies all description. Only a true sthitha-prajnan can get to his destination with his mind intact. Awareness wise, the country has produced immortals, but at the other end we are failing at very basic stuff. And as I write this, my next door neighbour just took out all his frustrations with life on both his front door and that of the elevator as they went out.

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#44 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43 So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
So what's all this stuff about bhakti themes being dominant? What bhakti? Is that any explanation for them to have sat through the concert? You have to learn etiquette - from the West?? How the hell can we claim CM is a bhakti tradition??

We should not be making anthropological statements on people - like why they behave certain way, rather appeal to their inner consciousness!!!

Bhakti is not some crass emotion , suddenly leading to surrender. It also has subtle to deep emotional constructs and has to start at home with Mother's love.

Thanjavur and other places, never had CM as we know it now. What they had was different! Even in golden era the base was in Mylapore (figuratively I mean !)

Are we saying we are done with CM in Chennai???

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#45 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Stop asking Why.

Find out How. How to keep the folks in the their seats during Tani.

One solution could be we have a lucky dip or tambola and the results are splashed only during Tani on a screen and audience present can claim their prize.

A less attractive but more effective solution is to have the Tani a bit early in the concert - when the sub main is over, say 40% into the concert.
Then sing a popular tukkada type of song.
Then move on to the main.

Third solution. Take a commercial/Bajji break just after Tani. So people will wait for the break. (or maybe some bummy folks will walk out to get a head start in the Bajji queue....🙃)

Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.

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#46 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rshankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 22:49Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.
कुछ (तो) लोग चलेंगे, लोगों का काम है चलना (kuch tO lOg kehenge lOgOn kA kAm hai calnA).... :lol:

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#47 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by uday_shankar »

rshankar wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 00:13
Sachi_R wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 22:49Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.
कुछ (तो) लोग चलेंगे, लोगों का काम है चलना (kuch tO lOg kehenge lOgOn kA kAm hai calnA).... :lol:
Shabaash ! :D :D :D

shankarank
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#48 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

phew! it took almost 50 posts to figure it out! Anthropological wisdom gives way to clinical wisdom! Lame sarcasm makes the day for the forum! We can ignore poor souls from walking out! But we didn't ignore the big walkout! Gave it a good press here! Even there was a deputation to the canteen imagined!

srikant1987
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#49 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by srikant1987 »

A less attractive but more effective solution is to have the Tani a bit early in the concert - when the sub main is over, say 40% into the concert.
Then sing a popular tukkada type of song.
Did you mean "fast filler" by the "popular tukkada type of song"? Like nenaruncinAnu or krpa jUcuTaku?

That's some thing I've always felt was a good idea. Even for someone who likes rakti rAgas and weighty compositions, having the tani so late in the concert can make them OK to leave around tani.

There would be many who would stay during a tani to listen to an evari mATa or a bAlagOpAla after that but not if they expect a couple of random rAgamAlikas afterwards.

Of course, including some heavy padams and jAvaLis after the main is another good idea, but these are more contextual.

Also, it may also be LITERALLY getting late by the time tani comes. There would be many who want to reach home before 8, 8:30 or 9 pm for some personal reason (including health reasons like sleep discipline or diabetes-mandated food schedule).

As shankarank pointed out, having a couple more, shorter tanis will greatly help. It will also introduce newcomers to the general structure of the tani. At the very least, concerts featuring an RTP should also have a tani for the main song.

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#50 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

There is definitely a lot of logic in having the tani avartanam where it is right now. It doesn't have the same aura when it's played for smaller pieces. It leaves the main performer and the violinist to get a break and recover, while the percussionists can rest in the post main segment, especially if there's a viruttham / shloka following.

But if change is needed, I suggest kicking out the submain altogether. If a varnam is the opener, that can be used for kalpanaswaras. The sub main's slot should be used for the "main krithi", or a varnam (if the opener was not one) or the RTP. That is then followed by a tani.

We must have more concerts where the RTP is the main item and not the kriti. Post main RTPs are neat little packages, but they aren't those 90 min test matches.

Even more radical ideas are to suggest a separate tani in itself in any tAla instead of the submain, or even as the opener itself. These aren't breaking any rules or divine laws as much as they are simply breaking habits. In Western classical, the tradition is to present the heaviest stuff first and the encores afterwards. Maybe a CM concert could open with the RTP or Main itself, but I am not sure how comfortable the audience will be with that.

I can only tell you that as music students and musicians, we are comfortable with doing a lot of things at home that the stage is not so ready to accept.

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