Why people leave at tani

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
srikant1987
Posts: 2243
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
x 7

#51 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by srikant1987 »

It doesn't have the same aura when it's played for smaller pieces.
I'm not suggesting it to be played for anurAgamu lEni or baNTurIti. I don't see why it can't be played for a ninnu sEvincina or cEra rAvadEmi.
It leaves the main performer and the violinist to get a break and recover,
Brr, wouldn't a short break a while before the marathon be helpful?
while the percussionists can rest in the post main segment, especially if there's a viruttham / shloka following.
Not especially, ONLY. But I hadn't seen viruttam in this light before. I'm not a particularly big fan of viruttams, and usually think, "oh, a viruttam! Why?!" Possibly viruttams' being so very peculiar to vocal music and very lyrics-heavy puts me off...

That said, Sri Trivandrum Venkataraman used to play rAgamAlika tAnams after the main, which was super!

In any case AlApanais and most tAnams are also not accompanied by percussion.

SrinathK
Posts: 2304
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 170
x 16

#52 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

If we consider that the average CM concert audience distribution is skewed towards senior citizens, maybe it would be better if concerts start earlier (before traffic time begins) and finish before dinner time?

Or may I present a revised T20 1.5 - 2 hr concert - 1 varnam / opener (optional!!), main item+tani, a shloka / viruttam (optional), 1 tailender and a thillana? No I am dead serious about this idea, although it might not find too much popularity for the audience coming to hear tukkadas.

In another idea, the tani is in fact the last item of the concert. More than once it has actually happened that the concert had to conclude with that.

I mean, technically all ideas are fine, but market forces will decide which ones will last. Ultimately it comes down to sabha-conomics!

Sachi_R
Posts: 1808
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20
x 57
x 14

#53 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

So building on what Srikant1987 and Srinath say
Have a substantial kriti early on. Follow up with the main Tani. Someone like TMK would allow the Tani to be autonomous in tala etc. unconnected with the preceding composition.

Then have a fast, interesting song. Then follow with RTP. Have a short Tani. Have a short break perhaps if the artistes need it. Then have the second part of the concert, with padams, javalis, viruttam, dasar Padas, bhajans, abhangs, tillanas... Some 6-7 shorter pieces with more lyrical appeal and less technical stuff.

Makes sense to me. And people like Rajesh, who want 3 hour+ concerts, will also be happy.

For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3592
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54
x 1005

#54 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Sanjay's concerts are well structured, with tani coming in the middle. The exodus at Tani is less dense than in Old Testament.

sankark
Posts: 1993
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10
x 100
x 27

#55 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 20:29
uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43 So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
So what's all this stuff about bhakti themes being dominant? What bhakti? Is that any explanation for them to have sat through the concert? You have to learn etiquette - from the West?? How the hell can we claim CM is a bhakti tradition??
shankarank, for you https://www.jeyamohan.in/189

It is in Tamil folks. About UR Ananthamurthy & SL Byrappa; about the tension between western views/ideas & the indian ethos/tradition.

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1573
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06
x 1
x 9

#56 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

Habits die hard.If u have 2 hour concert also,people will leave.Many Rasikas think that Concert is almost over once the main Kriti is done and time for tani.whether long or short Carnatic concert does not matter.In case you shift it to the beginning of concert,People may come late.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#57 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

hnbhagavan wrote: 08 Aug 2018, 21:26 Many Rasikas think that Concert is almost over once the main Kriti is done and time for tani.
You mean to say those who have a taste for all the so called manodharmic aspects of CM, have no taste for a taniyAvartanam. That gets even more interesting. Do you think many of them come back to catch more tukkaDa after a samosa? If no then really their favorite is not tukkaDas - they are real connoiseurs of "art" music??

So whoever remains for the tani is there to catch some tukkaDas? Not real connoiseurs?

sankark wrote: 08 Aug 2018, 20:38 shankarank, for you https://www.jeyamohan.in/189

It is in Tamil folks. About UR Ananthamurthy & SL Byrappa; about the tension between western views/ideas & the indian ethos/tradition.
Well we are all influenced by many things Western, and that happened with lot of conflicts personal and societal as people aged into modernity.

The concert etiquette part , all of us would be completely unaware unless we attended a Western musical program probably in the West. Even our musicians have noted the etiquette thing when they have visited the West.

But etiquette is a ordinary respect you give to the artists! That is only still cosmetic. We need a deeper reason than that and you don't have to remain as a person ( individually) for a tani if you have some commitments. That is not the issue.

When the main item is over it sounds like a break and a point where one can leave. Lets not delve into umpteen personal reasons a person walks out at beginning of a tani or for that matter any point in the concert. And I am not saying Indians should NOT learn etiquette. That is definitely progress. That would take its own effort, when music starts ranking as a higher priority for our people.

This is about a definite pattern, that people never for moment thought about this and it became a cultural malaise. Those who have the awareness created by westernization have even more responsibility to think about this.

This is where you don't take Western ideas as some behaviors ( blind copy!) , but reflect on them too! Find the depth of those as well. For example we have been told that music has seven notes. And music is rendered to a rhythym! The very language has confirmation bias built into it. We blind copied the west, when we started talking about music. Funny even Mridangists pride themselves saying they don't play to tALam.

In all this we claim Carnatic is a bhakti tradition and listeners are moved by the content of the lyrics. We have invented a term bhava, a fleeting experience that lasts until the singer finishes his item.

But if the listeners were to delve into the lyrics they will find lot of higher concepts about sangItam itself. Oh no they were just getting entertained shall we say? And then we have a musicologist who calls Mridangam an entertainment - not substantive music.

But only , people didn't find any entertainment in it. As when it plays alone, they walk out. Well then the music before that must have been very entertaining! Well did we not just say real music that is appreciated is made of seven notes and musically complete!

To describe music in terms of those who have learnt its methods ( and that too poorly!) and come to listen to it in Music Academy itself is an incomplete one.

No I am not taking the burden to stop people from leaving for tani. That would be foolish.

If we get the correct grand narrative of our music , may be we can get more respect for all facets of the art.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3592
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54
x 1005

#58 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Rohit Prasad posted this clip of a tani and it sounds good to me:
https://www.facebook.com/rohit.prasad.5 ... 606348097/

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1573
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06
x 1
x 9

#59 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

A few Mridangam Players like Umayalapuram Sivaraman,Earlier Palghat Ragh,vellore Ramabhadran etc did attract people during Tani.Apart from Musical aspects modern day transport Chaos and getting a tasty bite at Bhajji Samaj (Canteen - Word thanks to RSACHI SIR) is also responsible for the exodus.

rajeshnat
Posts: 9202
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 119
x 16

#60 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rajeshnat »

Sachi_R wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 12:02 For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.
On a weekend concerts your suggestion is great . But please mind that there is a sub senior artist who has to start at 03:30 instead of 4 pm. In the last few years with my kid growing up , I personally like to have early start so that I can avoid a longer tani avartanam in my home as it becomes late way past 09:30 PM.
In week days starting at 05:30 pm, you are almost killing any office goer to attend concerts.

SrinathK
Posts: 2304
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 170
x 16

#61 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

rajeshnat wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 15:24
Sachi_R wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 12:02 For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.
In week days starting at 05:30 pm, you are almost killing any office goer to attend concerts.
Had you said 5:30 a.m, I might have made it while leaving from the offices, if they hadn't killed me already. :lol:

SrinathK
Posts: 2304
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 170
x 16

#62 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

Educating the rasikas will definitely help. Am not sure if there is enough video or audio material that dissects an entire thani, be it that of a mridangam or a thavil. I personally still find thavil kanakkus more difficult to grasp -- thavil vidwans seem to think in very different structures.
tavil vidwans take up a pattern and play it repeatedly, exploring endless variations on it, often doing cross pattern calculations in various naDais. They may take a pattern of 15 counts in a chatushra naDai instead of 16 (a shift of -1 note each time) and keep playing on that 16 times before it comes back to the beat. They take the stuff you'd play at normal speed and play it at 2x or 4x speeds in all sorts of naDais, resulting in some very complex patterns and some detailed work at mind boggling speeds. Sometimes though, it can feel like they're playing korvais and kanakkus all the time. They also prefer more complex muktAyis to conclude a round of playing, or even as an improvization in itself. And then there's that running train effect.

Rhythmically, they do actually play the same patterns that all percussionists do, but the difference between the sound of the left and right sides of the tavil tends to be very pronounced, and this can confound ears that are used to mridangams. Also the degree of repetition is endless, which means tavil tanis can get really long.

Mridangists usually try not to keep repeating over and over, they prefer to play more of an essay type of approach, with very distinct phases. This is one of the reasons why mridangam tanis can be much shorter.

The Karaikudi Mani School especially is famous for taking the thavil approach on the mridangam almost ditto.

ranjanimalavi
Posts: 276
Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 06:15
x 6

#63 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ranjanimalavi »

I feel we need to explain in much simpler terms for layman to understand how the rhythmic syllables and
vocal syllables align for people to appreciate tala.

Something like this, which is mostly in tamil and english:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzanBWsf6ko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE3gQEgrNBE

Raman

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#64 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

You say layman. But if they need explanation, then they are already blind-folded with the thing called "need to understand".

This is a highly self rating attitude that our education system has cultivated! I agree - Math and physics and biology need to be understood! Literature should be appreciated also - right?

Somehow such "need to understand" "lyrics" was never a concern! And need to understand rAgA lakshanas was not there.

Oh the melody is sweet . tEnA payudu - flows like honey into the ears! That is the problem in the first place. The attitude of "I will listen if I like it" kind of a thing. Nick H claims "people leave because they don't like it". Out of entire England , we have a lone English man who likes Carnatic music. Now don't challenge me on the figure of one, that is meant to be figurative.

We have some musicians ( vINA S. Balachander) who claim gurus cannot teach this music. One has to learn from books! They forget that they have been specially endowed by may be a good providence from earlier birth! That may be true of many a prodigy maestro!

It is irresponsible to suggest the same to anybody else. They may not need Gurus , but others do.

I heard this somewhere in this talk - true of religious traditions as well : https://youtu.be/K3jPFftUq00?t=891 - he talks about sAStra. This is very important as North Indians and many people of this era have to be told, even though it is common knowledge among traditional south Indians.

North Indian built temples do not adhere to many an Agamic prescription in terms of dimensions in North America.

Likewise at a rasika level if anybody asks or says I don't understand this or that in Carnatic music, the first statement ought to be it is a sacred system passed down the generations and one must sit and listen respecting the sacredness of it - period. The content or lyrics comes later.

This is a fair answer and deserving answer to anybody who at least has progressed enough to POSE the question. They deserve this answer and our tradition deserves this answer to be given to the questioner on it's behalf.

People should first understand that the artists have put in effort to do sAdhakam and that must be respected first and foremost. Everything else will follow.

Now if you say, in old time Tanjore and Mysore did people have this orientation, yes and no! Many understood the sacredness of this. But at that time we did not ask all these post modern questions like why CM is not reaching a wider audience did we??

So the answer certainly depends on when, why and where the question is posed!

ranjanimalavi
Posts: 276
Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 06:15
x 6

#65 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ranjanimalavi »

Most people just come to listen to the music, some like to identify the raga, and some people try to identify the patterns of the mridangist associated with a swaras etc.
For each you need some effort, and level of effort goes up, so you cannot except each person to put the effort to enjoy all aspects of the music.
There are people who don't want to put the effort to understand, and they are the ones who leave when thani starts.
It is painful for them to sit through something which they don't understand.
Just patiently wait for them to leave and start thani.
The first step is to educate the people to appreciate the accompaniment of mridangam for the Kriti first and then go to appreciate the thani.

Raman

Nick H
Posts: 9138
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 921
x 26

#66 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

ranjanimalavi wrote: 13 Aug 2018, 22:00 I feel we need to explain in much simpler terms for layman to understand how the rhythmic syllables and
vocal syllables align for people to appreciate tala.
It does not bother the same layman that he does not understand the same thing in kalpana swara.

Pallavisree1976
Posts: 15
Joined: 13 Sep 2016, 02:03
x 5

#67 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

I think it is because people are only more interested in melody, bhava, lyrics, raga and something they can understand. A lay man or common man won’t be able to understand the intricacies of rhythm and laya and laya patterns of the mridangam and other percussion instruments. They might not be able to understand what is a tani avartanam and what is exactly done during a tani avartanam. They might be able to sit through 5 minutes maximum of the tani avartanam but probably not more than that. And that is why they leave during that time.

Pallavisree1976
Posts: 15
Joined: 13 Sep 2016, 02:03
x 5

#68 Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

Also, in the US, where I live, we have no choice but to bring small kids along with us also to a concert. it is very hard for people with small children to stay that long in a concert, so the minute a kid starts fidgeting or getting fussy the family leaves because they don’t want to disturb others who have come to listen to the concert and most likely that is during a tani avartanam. I have seen this happen quite a bit.

Post Reply