Why people leave at tani

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rajeshnat
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rajeshnat »

Vasanthakokilam
DO you recollect a thread where Mannarkoil balaji (id is mridhangam) used to explain the different segments of tani avarthanam . I recollect J balaji writing a long post with you asking writing and interpreting with right questions . I am not able to chase that thread in this jungle . Can you recollect that and post that link here.

parivadini
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by parivadini »

Sachi_R wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 13:53 Bala,
I am referring to a tani avartanam like this one:
https://youtu.be/I62YqIZ3PTU?t=22m00s

Sri Mani Iyer plays a tani for a few minutes. The audio is quite good.

I wish someone would segment the tani and discuss it. Today we can do all this very easily. It should be done using the video with explanation for each chosen segment, in a dialogue fashion.
One such analysis by K.S.Kalidas on a thani played by PSP (Tha famous thani after a GNB Brocheva) used to be available in this site vidvan.com (it had a bunch of links to MMI and Mali too). If I'm not wrong, this site was hosted by Shri.VKV. I am not able to trace it anymore. I should have downloaded and saved it as I had meticulously saved anything and everything I could lay my hands upon on PSP as part of my research for the book on PSP.

I'll wait for someone to reproduce that link here. If that doesn't happen, I shall find it and upload on soundcloud,

Sachi_R
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

God bless!

Sachi_R
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

#22
Bala,
Yes. It is not so counterintuitive if we state music and musical appreciation in classical music is an acquired, intellectual response.
All intellectualism is a big example of Maya because we relate and describe the universe in our own terms and biases. And we are smug about it. There is a vulnerability in exposing oneself to new ideas.
A family member, a highly trained classical dancer, almost never dances in parties, and seriously looks down on our free-flowing limb loosening we call dancing. For her it is anathema.
But I think she is missing some very good, very basic, fun.

jshrikanth
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by jshrikanth »

rajeshnat wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 16:05 Vasanthakokilam
DO you recollect a thread where Mannarkoil balaji (id is mridhangam) used to explain the different segments of tani avarthanam . I recollect J balaji writing a long post with you asking writing and interpreting with right questions . I am not able to chase that thread in this jungle . Can you recollect that and post that link here.
Rajeshnat: is it this one titled 'Structuring a Korvai in the thani': viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2359
It is a Sticky at the top of the Tala&Laya section.

Excellent thread, with great discussions and explanations by Sri Balaji.
I have been trying to go through the explanations, but need multiple reads of each post to understand. :)

Nick H
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

Guys, guys (and guesses, of course), this is not even an Indian problem.

Even Deadheads used to run to the bar, in dozens, when their "thani" started.

kvchellappa
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

deleted

Sachi_R
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

WOULD YOU EVER WALK OUT OF SUCH A TANI?
Image

Click the pic and watch!

kvchellappa
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

This thani has been recommended as interesting esp. "Morsing by Bhagyalakshmi is standing out."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_rbFYT ... e=youtu.be

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

kvc, for a long time I was waiting to post that - you made it first! - thanks.

Yeah we only need a tabla artiste make tani interesting. This is a familiar rap - if you are good and competent then people will not leave for tani.

Did too many people leave for this tani? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3y5g_tl7E - Probably not.

Same venue - same Mridangist - replace the singer with a YACM artiste - people left in droves!!! I know the YACM artistes brought lot of new Audience to listen to music - contrary to what has been claimed by one of them!! - actually. So there is a positive narrative in seeing people leaving during tani as well!!

Well in that sense I have no regrets!!!

thanjavooran
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by thanjavooran »

Sachi and KVC. Many thanks for the links. Excellent Thani by UKS and Neiyveli company.
Quite enjoyable. IMO the main artiste before commencement of RTP or main song which is to be followed by Thani should deliberately make an appeal to Rasikas to leave before the start of the main piece itself and definitely not before Thani which will be an insult to the percussion artistes. This is my personal opinion.
In Perambur Sabha there will be only 35 to 40 rasikas and all will sit till the end this I have noticed since more than 50 years.
Thanjavooran
17 01 2018

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

thanjavooran wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 20:24 Thani should deliberately make an appeal to Rasikas to leave before the start of the main piece itself and definitely not before Thani which will be an insult to the percussion artistes
No .. why ask for sympathy vote?! The sangItam all through from varNam should reflect a laya pragnya or laya consciousness. We should expect that of artistes who make forays into grand pallavis especially.

Prescriptive from now on - so pardon me for a while:

A Pallavi makes no sense if this consciousness is not there throughout! A neraval does not make sense either. Svara prastara may be - a consolation give away.

kAla pramaNa shuddham, tala perfection are not enough - and sometimes the former could be turned into a cosmetic technical requirement - for e.g people could say, Sri Semmangudi speeds up without realizing the context in which that was done. People many times, over time, forget his proportion of intonation, gamaka control , kArvai control in a kriti rendition.

Sadly this could not be taken for granted during the YACM era , with many artistes considered as traditional singers, even excepting popularity oriented artistes.

If that is not their staple, artistes should tailor their performance and speed to a different flavor and render kritis nicely , and add padams & javaLis if they are able to vocalize those. If not simply do other devotional items! A tani may not be a requirement in such a concert - so a tani main piece is not required as well! Engage a Mridangist who will not feel aggrieved , at the same time supports them nicely in these items.

A Laya conscious artiste also should have the courage to shorten other items, do one VaRNam or one Kriti , either one with svaraprastara and launch into a pallavi. If that is not a viable proposition, then doing a lot of smaller/similar items and then a belated main item for tani's sake is not good. Do less number of semi-elaborate items in diff tALA flavors. If Mridangist feels like doing a short tani on any one of them, let them do it. Multiple short tanis could then be possible.

Reorient commercial circuit this way! The older test cricket format can be done in a temple concert in afternoons for 4 hours - with floating audiences to keep the sAdhaka balam alive. Or to special audiences when opportunities arise.

If we want respect for a Mridanga tani, it should have scope to shine from the start on wards. Listeners will develop taste for that organically and slowly!

That to me is a honest music.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

Now that you are looking at Clippings,Here is one i posted some time back.Umayalapuram Sivaraman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_BdclZBiJI

SrinathK
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

One only needs to see how many singers, who were unknown when they were singing heavy classical stuff, got exponentially popular after singing short tukkadas to see what the real problem is about. That's what most people come there for. The rest are just waiting for the main piece to end so that they can run home asap. I say that much of this is the audience culture, they do not sit back and respect the percussionists or care to. That's the number 1 reason, a total lack of regard for the tani.

I also feel that sometimes the whole art of percussion playing has become more mathematical over time than organic - the trick I observe almost all percussionists using today is to take everything that makes sense at normal speed and play it 2x or 4x faster - I have slowed down many a tani of many an artiste and realized that that's the trick. It's an exercise in confounding at times.

Some slower segments and some announcement of what they are going to do before they start a segment of tani will be very helpful. Maybe they could focus on one or two elements of what's out there and present that, and the audience could pay attention to what they're doing. They can start simple or end simple, if they go complex after presenting something simpler, no one will mind.

The audience at a technical level will have issues with handling 3/4 or 1 1/2 (deshAdi) or 2/7 eDuppus (mishra chApu), because the pattern ends between 2 beats and not on the beat. Well, that really can't be helped.

For its part, the tani avartanam's main issue is communication - they just get straight to playing and a lot of stuff they do just goes unsaid (and over the heads of the audience), or is put out of range of the rasikas' rhythmic capabilities. We had an all rhythm concert by Ghatam Karthik and co at IITM, and one thing he did was to get us involved into the clapping and tapping. Ok, I concede that may only be possible in all rhythm concerts, but percussionists can help a lot if they communicate what they are playing to the audience.

Perhaps they can have a segment where they play in a tala of their choice (I think that has been done). But people's attitudes to rhythm must change, and the tani avartanam must try to get a little more organic as a living experience rather than the art of confusion-fu.
Last edited by SrinathK on 05 Aug 2018, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

talalaya
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by talalaya »

Very simply, the issue Can be pointed both ways!

From the Audience side- It is a question of basic manners! When you can sit for 2 hours, why not for additional 10 mins as a mark of respect for the accompanists, even if you dont completely understand the intricacies involved, as if they understand all the intricacies that was sung so far? (If the Thani avarthanam goes on & on, then its different).

From the Artists' side - If one can't play an impressive/ effective Thani avarthanam within 8-10 mins ( or 15 mins max if ghatam/kanjira/ morsing is present), then there is no way they would be able to do it over half an hour or three hours.

The Pharans remind the audience of the sound of waterfalls and suddenly they remember the need to replicate that????

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 12:17 One only needs to see how many singers, who were unknown when they were singing heavy classical stuff, got exponentially popular after singing short tukkadas to see what the real problem is about. That's what most people come there for. The rest are just waiting for the main piece to end so that they can run home asap. I say that much of this is the audience culture, they do not sit back and respect the percussionists or care to. That's the number 1 reason, a total lack of regard for the tani.
We are not talking about any general audience anywhere else etc. We are talking about the audience in the Mecca , in the age of enlightenment. They have a continuing responsibility and they are the reference. Many musicians retort saying : "all venues are equal to them" when told their xyz concert @ abc venue in Mylapore was good. That is good attitude, but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.

This cannot happen there!

Especially important when we start discussing things like "art" music. Away from it's content and "lyrics"! Any discussion on "art" music should be suspended until we resolve this issue!

uday_shankar
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:20but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.
Welcome to reality pal.. maybe the emperor's not wearing any clothes. Think about the Thanjavur district today... if you go visiting every hallowed CM kshetra ... Thiruvarur, Thanjavur, Tiruvaiyaru, Valadi, Sathanur, Konerirajapuram, Tiruvidaimarudur, Palamaneri,.... you'll be hard pressed to find a handful of people conversant with CM leave alone with deep ruminations about it. it is a cultural desert. The only saving grace are the nagasvaram/thavil vidvans left in the area but most of them too are very "filmy" and have a repertoire that peaks with raghuvamsasudha and averages with film songs. Many of them play atrociously too...

So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?

SrinathK
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43
shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:20but yet the people of Mylapore on whom this heritage carries have special responsibilities.
Welcome to reality pal.. maybe the emperor's not wearing any clothes. Think about the Thanjavur district today... if you go visiting every hallowed CM kshetra ... Thiruvarur, Thanjavur, Tiruvaiyaru, Valadi, Sathanur, Konerirajapuram, Tiruvidaimarudur, Palamaneri,.... you'll be hard pressed to find a handful of people conversant with CM leave alone with deep ruminations about it. it is a cultural desert. The only saving grace are the nagasvaram/thavil vidvans left in the area but most of them too are very "filmy" and have a repertoire that peaks with raghuvamsasudha and averages with film songs. Many of them play atrociously too...

So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
Totally agree that you will find more serious audiences elsewhere than in the Meccas. Here too many things get taken for granted.

What you say applies to just about everything else about us Indians and our (lack of) awareness and civic sense in general. I do not know if you've driven a vehicle in this corner of the universe these days - the insanity defies all description. Only a true sthitha-prajnan can get to his destination with his mind intact. Awareness wise, the country has produced immortals, but at the other end we are failing at very basic stuff. And as I write this, my next door neighbour just took out all his frustrations with life on both his front door and that of the elevator as they went out.

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43 So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
So what's all this stuff about bhakti themes being dominant? What bhakti? Is that any explanation for them to have sat through the concert? You have to learn etiquette - from the West?? How the hell can we claim CM is a bhakti tradition??

We should not be making anthropological statements on people - like why they behave certain way, rather appeal to their inner consciousness!!!

Bhakti is not some crass emotion , suddenly leading to surrender. It also has subtle to deep emotional constructs and has to start at home with Mother's love.

Thanjavur and other places, never had CM as we know it now. What they had was different! Even in golden era the base was in Mylapore (figuratively I mean !)

Are we saying we are done with CM in Chennai???

Sachi_R
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

Stop asking Why.

Find out How. How to keep the folks in the their seats during Tani.

One solution could be we have a lucky dip or tambola and the results are splashed only during Tani on a screen and audience present can claim their prize.

A less attractive but more effective solution is to have the Tani a bit early in the concert - when the sub main is over, say 40% into the concert.
Then sing a popular tukkada type of song.
Then move on to the main.

Third solution. Take a commercial/Bajji break just after Tani. So people will wait for the break. (or maybe some bummy folks will walk out to get a head start in the Bajji queue....🙃)

Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.

rshankar
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rshankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 22:49Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.
कुछ (तो) लोग चलेंगे, लोगों का काम है चलना (kuch tO lOg kehenge lOgOn kA kAm hai calnA).... :lol:

uday_shankar
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by uday_shankar »

rshankar wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 00:13
Sachi_R wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 22:49Finally the best solution. Ignore the walk outs.
कुछ (तो) लोग चलेंगे, लोगों का काम है चलना (kuch tO lOg kehenge lOgOn kA kAm hai calnA).... :lol:
Shabaash ! :D :D :D

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

phew! it took almost 50 posts to figure it out! Anthropological wisdom gives way to clinical wisdom! Lame sarcasm makes the day for the forum! We can ignore poor souls from walking out! But we didn't ignore the big walkout! Gave it a good press here! Even there was a deputation to the canteen imagined!

srikant1987
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by srikant1987 »

A less attractive but more effective solution is to have the Tani a bit early in the concert - when the sub main is over, say 40% into the concert.
Then sing a popular tukkada type of song.
Did you mean "fast filler" by the "popular tukkada type of song"? Like nenaruncinAnu or krpa jUcuTaku?

That's some thing I've always felt was a good idea. Even for someone who likes rakti rAgas and weighty compositions, having the tani so late in the concert can make them OK to leave around tani.

There would be many who would stay during a tani to listen to an evari mATa or a bAlagOpAla after that but not if they expect a couple of random rAgamAlikas afterwards.

Of course, including some heavy padams and jAvaLis after the main is another good idea, but these are more contextual.

Also, it may also be LITERALLY getting late by the time tani comes. There would be many who want to reach home before 8, 8:30 or 9 pm for some personal reason (including health reasons like sleep discipline or diabetes-mandated food schedule).

As shankarank pointed out, having a couple more, shorter tanis will greatly help. It will also introduce newcomers to the general structure of the tani. At the very least, concerts featuring an RTP should also have a tani for the main song.

SrinathK
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

There is definitely a lot of logic in having the tani avartanam where it is right now. It doesn't have the same aura when it's played for smaller pieces. It leaves the main performer and the violinist to get a break and recover, while the percussionists can rest in the post main segment, especially if there's a viruttham / shloka following.

But if change is needed, I suggest kicking out the submain altogether. If a varnam is the opener, that can be used for kalpanaswaras. The sub main's slot should be used for the "main krithi", or a varnam (if the opener was not one) or the RTP. That is then followed by a tani.

We must have more concerts where the RTP is the main item and not the kriti. Post main RTPs are neat little packages, but they aren't those 90 min test matches.

Even more radical ideas are to suggest a separate tani in itself in any tAla instead of the submain, or even as the opener itself. These aren't breaking any rules or divine laws as much as they are simply breaking habits. In Western classical, the tradition is to present the heaviest stuff first and the encores afterwards. Maybe a CM concert could open with the RTP or Main itself, but I am not sure how comfortable the audience will be with that.

I can only tell you that as music students and musicians, we are comfortable with doing a lot of things at home that the stage is not so ready to accept.

srikant1987
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by srikant1987 »

It doesn't have the same aura when it's played for smaller pieces.
I'm not suggesting it to be played for anurAgamu lEni or baNTurIti. I don't see why it can't be played for a ninnu sEvincina or cEra rAvadEmi.
It leaves the main performer and the violinist to get a break and recover,
Brr, wouldn't a short break a while before the marathon be helpful?
while the percussionists can rest in the post main segment, especially if there's a viruttham / shloka following.
Not especially, ONLY. But I hadn't seen viruttam in this light before. I'm not a particularly big fan of viruttams, and usually think, "oh, a viruttam! Why?!" Possibly viruttams' being so very peculiar to vocal music and very lyrics-heavy puts me off...

That said, Sri Trivandrum Venkataraman used to play rAgamAlika tAnams after the main, which was super!

In any case AlApanais and most tAnams are also not accompanied by percussion.

SrinathK
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

If we consider that the average CM concert audience distribution is skewed towards senior citizens, maybe it would be better if concerts start earlier (before traffic time begins) and finish before dinner time?

Or may I present a revised T20 1.5 - 2 hr concert - 1 varnam / opener (optional!!), main item+tani, a shloka / viruttam (optional), 1 tailender and a thillana? No I am dead serious about this idea, although it might not find too much popularity for the audience coming to hear tukkadas.

In another idea, the tani is in fact the last item of the concert. More than once it has actually happened that the concert had to conclude with that.

I mean, technically all ideas are fine, but market forces will decide which ones will last. Ultimately it comes down to sabha-conomics!

Sachi_R
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Sachi_R »

So building on what Srikant1987 and Srinath say
Have a substantial kriti early on. Follow up with the main Tani. Someone like TMK would allow the Tani to be autonomous in tala etc. unconnected with the preceding composition.

Then have a fast, interesting song. Then follow with RTP. Have a short Tani. Have a short break perhaps if the artistes need it. Then have the second part of the concert, with padams, javalis, viruttam, dasar Padas, bhajans, abhangs, tillanas... Some 6-7 shorter pieces with more lyrical appeal and less technical stuff.

Makes sense to me. And people like Rajesh, who want 3 hour+ concerts, will also be happy.

For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.

kvchellappa
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Sanjay's concerts are well structured, with tani coming in the middle. The exodus at Tani is less dense than in Old Testament.

sankark
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 20:29
uday_shankar wrote: 05 Aug 2018, 19:43 So maybe Cleveland, San Diego and Toronto and other such places are where you should look for the "heritage" to have some life... people don't certainly walk out during tanis in these venues. That's where you need to learn katcheri etiquette, not in Mylapore and Mambalam ?
So what's all this stuff about bhakti themes being dominant? What bhakti? Is that any explanation for them to have sat through the concert? You have to learn etiquette - from the West?? How the hell can we claim CM is a bhakti tradition??
shankarank, for you https://www.jeyamohan.in/189

It is in Tamil folks. About UR Ananthamurthy & SL Byrappa; about the tension between western views/ideas & the indian ethos/tradition.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

Habits die hard.If u have 2 hour concert also,people will leave.Many Rasikas think that Concert is almost over once the main Kriti is done and time for tani.whether long or short Carnatic concert does not matter.In case you shift it to the beginning of concert,People may come late.

shankarank
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Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

hnbhagavan wrote: 08 Aug 2018, 21:26 Many Rasikas think that Concert is almost over once the main Kriti is done and time for tani.
You mean to say those who have a taste for all the so called manodharmic aspects of CM, have no taste for a taniyAvartanam. That gets even more interesting. Do you think many of them come back to catch more tukkaDa after a samosa? If no then really their favorite is not tukkaDas - they are real connoiseurs of "art" music??

So whoever remains for the tani is there to catch some tukkaDas? Not real connoiseurs?

sankark wrote: 08 Aug 2018, 20:38 shankarank, for you https://www.jeyamohan.in/189

It is in Tamil folks. About UR Ananthamurthy & SL Byrappa; about the tension between western views/ideas & the indian ethos/tradition.
Well we are all influenced by many things Western, and that happened with lot of conflicts personal and societal as people aged into modernity.

The concert etiquette part , all of us would be completely unaware unless we attended a Western musical program probably in the West. Even our musicians have noted the etiquette thing when they have visited the West.

But etiquette is a ordinary respect you give to the artists! That is only still cosmetic. We need a deeper reason than that and you don't have to remain as a person ( individually) for a tani if you have some commitments. That is not the issue.

When the main item is over it sounds like a break and a point where one can leave. Lets not delve into umpteen personal reasons a person walks out at beginning of a tani or for that matter any point in the concert. And I am not saying Indians should NOT learn etiquette. That is definitely progress. That would take its own effort, when music starts ranking as a higher priority for our people.

This is about a definite pattern, that people never for moment thought about this and it became a cultural malaise. Those who have the awareness created by westernization have even more responsibility to think about this.

This is where you don't take Western ideas as some behaviors ( blind copy!) , but reflect on them too! Find the depth of those as well. For example we have been told that music has seven notes. And music is rendered to a rhythym! The very language has confirmation bias built into it. We blind copied the west, when we started talking about music. Funny even Mridangists pride themselves saying they don't play to tALam.

In all this we claim Carnatic is a bhakti tradition and listeners are moved by the content of the lyrics. We have invented a term bhava, a fleeting experience that lasts until the singer finishes his item.

But if the listeners were to delve into the lyrics they will find lot of higher concepts about sangItam itself. Oh no they were just getting entertained shall we say? And then we have a musicologist who calls Mridangam an entertainment - not substantive music.

But only , people didn't find any entertainment in it. As when it plays alone, they walk out. Well then the music before that must have been very entertaining! Well did we not just say real music that is appreciated is made of seven notes and musically complete!

To describe music in terms of those who have learnt its methods ( and that too poorly!) and come to listen to it in Music Academy itself is an incomplete one.

No I am not taking the burden to stop people from leaving for tani. That would be foolish.

If we get the correct grand narrative of our music , may be we can get more respect for all facets of the art.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by kvchellappa »

Rohit Prasad posted this clip of a tani and it sounds good to me:
https://www.facebook.com/rohit.prasad.5 ... 606348097/

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1655
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by hnbhagavan »

A few Mridangam Players like Umayalapuram Sivaraman,Earlier Palghat Ragh,vellore Ramabhadran etc did attract people during Tani.Apart from Musical aspects modern day transport Chaos and getting a tasty bite at Bhajji Samaj (Canteen - Word thanks to RSACHI SIR) is also responsible for the exodus.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by rajeshnat »

Sachi_R wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 12:02 For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.
On a weekend concerts your suggestion is great . But please mind that there is a sub senior artist who has to start at 03:30 instead of 4 pm. In the last few years with my kid growing up , I personally like to have early start so that I can avoid a longer tani avartanam in my home as it becomes late way past 09:30 PM.
In week days starting at 05:30 pm, you are almost killing any office goer to attend concerts.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

rajeshnat wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 15:24
Sachi_R wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 12:02 For all this the concert has to start at 5:30PM at the latest. That's anyway the norm in some sabhas here.
In week days starting at 05:30 pm, you are almost killing any office goer to attend concerts.
Had you said 5:30 a.m, I might have made it while leaving from the offices, if they hadn't killed me already. :lol:

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by SrinathK »

Educating the rasikas will definitely help. Am not sure if there is enough video or audio material that dissects an entire thani, be it that of a mridangam or a thavil. I personally still find thavil kanakkus more difficult to grasp -- thavil vidwans seem to think in very different structures.
tavil vidwans take up a pattern and play it repeatedly, exploring endless variations on it, often doing cross pattern calculations in various naDais. They may take a pattern of 15 counts in a chatushra naDai instead of 16 (a shift of -1 note each time) and keep playing on that 16 times before it comes back to the beat. They take the stuff you'd play at normal speed and play it at 2x or 4x speeds in all sorts of naDais, resulting in some very complex patterns and some detailed work at mind boggling speeds. Sometimes though, it can feel like they're playing korvais and kanakkus all the time. They also prefer more complex muktAyis to conclude a round of playing, or even as an improvization in itself. And then there's that running train effect.

Rhythmically, they do actually play the same patterns that all percussionists do, but the difference between the sound of the left and right sides of the tavil tends to be very pronounced, and this can confound ears that are used to mridangams. Also the degree of repetition is endless, which means tavil tanis can get really long.

Mridangists usually try not to keep repeating over and over, they prefer to play more of an essay type of approach, with very distinct phases. This is one of the reasons why mridangam tanis can be much shorter.

The Karaikudi Mani School especially is famous for taking the thavil approach on the mridangam almost ditto.

ranjanimalavi
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Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 06:15

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ranjanimalavi »

I feel we need to explain in much simpler terms for layman to understand how the rhythmic syllables and
vocal syllables align for people to appreciate tala.

Something like this, which is mostly in tamil and english:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzanBWsf6ko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE3gQEgrNBE

Raman

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by shankarank »

You say layman. But if they need explanation, then they are already blind-folded with the thing called "need to understand".

This is a highly self rating attitude that our education system has cultivated! I agree - Math and physics and biology need to be understood! Literature should be appreciated also - right?

Somehow such "need to understand" "lyrics" was never a concern! And need to understand rAgA lakshanas was not there.

Oh the melody is sweet . tEnA payudu - flows like honey into the ears! That is the problem in the first place. The attitude of "I will listen if I like it" kind of a thing. Nick H claims "people leave because they don't like it". Out of entire England , we have a lone English man who likes Carnatic music. Now don't challenge me on the figure of one, that is meant to be figurative.

We have some musicians ( vINA S. Balachander) who claim gurus cannot teach this music. One has to learn from books! They forget that they have been specially endowed by may be a good providence from earlier birth! That may be true of many a prodigy maestro!

It is irresponsible to suggest the same to anybody else. They may not need Gurus , but others do.

I heard this somewhere in this talk - true of religious traditions as well : https://youtu.be/K3jPFftUq00?t=891 - he talks about sAStra. This is very important as North Indians and many people of this era have to be told, even though it is common knowledge among traditional south Indians.

North Indian built temples do not adhere to many an Agamic prescription in terms of dimensions in North America.

Likewise at a rasika level if anybody asks or says I don't understand this or that in Carnatic music, the first statement ought to be it is a sacred system passed down the generations and one must sit and listen respecting the sacredness of it - period. The content or lyrics comes later.

This is a fair answer and deserving answer to anybody who at least has progressed enough to POSE the question. They deserve this answer and our tradition deserves this answer to be given to the questioner on it's behalf.

People should first understand that the artists have put in effort to do sAdhakam and that must be respected first and foremost. Everything else will follow.

Now if you say, in old time Tanjore and Mysore did people have this orientation, yes and no! Many understood the sacredness of this. But at that time we did not ask all these post modern questions like why CM is not reaching a wider audience did we??

So the answer certainly depends on when, why and where the question is posed!

ranjanimalavi
Posts: 343
Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 06:15

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by ranjanimalavi »

Most people just come to listen to the music, some like to identify the raga, and some people try to identify the patterns of the mridangist associated with a swaras etc.
For each you need some effort, and level of effort goes up, so you cannot except each person to put the effort to enjoy all aspects of the music.
There are people who don't want to put the effort to understand, and they are the ones who leave when thani starts.
It is painful for them to sit through something which they don't understand.
Just patiently wait for them to leave and start thani.
The first step is to educate the people to appreciate the accompaniment of mridangam for the Kriti first and then go to appreciate the thani.

Raman

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

ranjanimalavi wrote: 13 Aug 2018, 22:00 I feel we need to explain in much simpler terms for layman to understand how the rhythmic syllables and
vocal syllables align for people to appreciate tala.
It does not bother the same layman that he does not understand the same thing in kalpana swara.

Pallavisree1976
Posts: 22
Joined: 13 Sep 2016, 02:03

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

I think it is because people are only more interested in melody, bhava, lyrics, raga and something they can understand. A lay man or common man won’t be able to understand the intricacies of rhythm and laya and laya patterns of the mridangam and other percussion instruments. They might not be able to understand what is a tani avartanam and what is exactly done during a tani avartanam. They might be able to sit through 5 minutes maximum of the tani avartanam but probably not more than that. And that is why they leave during that time.

Pallavisree1976
Posts: 22
Joined: 13 Sep 2016, 02:03

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

Also, in the US, where I live, we have no choice but to bring small kids along with us also to a concert. it is very hard for people with small children to stay that long in a concert, so the minute a kid starts fidgeting or getting fussy the family leaves because they don’t want to disturb others who have come to listen to the concert and most likely that is during a tani avartanam. I have seen this happen quite a bit.

Pallavisree1976
Posts: 22
Joined: 13 Sep 2016, 02:03

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

Laya is one of the most difficult apects for an audiance to understand. The tani svartanam can be short or it can be long. it depends on the artist eho is playing the tani avartanam. Common talams taken for tani svartsnam include rendu kalai adi talam, mishra chapu thalam, etc.. sometimes rendu kalai roopakam thalam, or rendu kalai jampa thalam is also taken for tani avartanam. The tani avaratanam consists of parts such as abhirayam, korvai, mohara, farhan, etc...these things the audiance won't understand because they are very technical parts of the tani avarthanam. Therefore, the audiance does not have patience for all this and they will start to leave when the tani starts.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Why people leave at tani

Post by Nick H »

Pallavisree1976 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 19:39 Laya is one of the most difficult apects for an audiance to understand.
How do they manage to sit through kalpana swara then? How do they manage to put talam through the songs, including the complex bits?
The tani svartanam can be short or it can be long. it depends on the artist eho is playing the tani avartanam.
Some artists may be insensitive enough to take as long as feel like. This is not usually the case. There is some sort of appreciation of the length of the concert, the feeling of the main artist, and last, and ok, sometimes least, the feelings of the audience
Common talams taken for tani svartsnam include rendu kalai adi talam, mishra chapu thalam, etc.. sometimes rendu kalai roopakam thalam, or rendu kalai jampa thalam is also taken for tani avartanam.
There is no such thing. The talam for the tani is the same as the song of which it forms a part.
The tani avaratanam consists of parts such as abhirayam, korvai, mohara, farhan, etc...
Kalpana swara consists of parts such as korvai, koraipu, etc, which are also technical. But the audience has the patience to sit through them
these things the audiance won't understand because they are very technical parts of the tani avarthanam.
Have sat through, thousands of tanis: if the players are sufficiently musical, not understanding the intricacies has never been a problem.
Therefore, the audiance does not have patience for all this and they will start to leave when the tani starts.
Of course they do. But they may not like to. They may even believe that they don't like to for some of the reasons that you mention.Then lets ask them how they sit through RTP, kalpana swaras, etc.

Same old ideas, same old answers.

Did you post something earlier about people simply preferring melody, bhava, and the like? I think that is much more the case. As I have mentioned before, in Western rock music, even, many of the audience run out of the percussion solo!

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