Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
rshankar
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rshankar »

Nick H wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 16:25Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.
Smelling salts OR a few tight slaps?

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 21:02 Being an intellectual who is discerning, should he not check out and study the scholars themselves , what is their institutional motives, what do their institutions do, how and why are they funded, what ideological, civilizational biases do they carry? - and so on.

How can he simply believe, whatever peer reviewed by a cabal of scholars, could be correct? So who is afflicted by belief?
I am entirely okay with criticizing him for sloppy research or for using invalid and biased references.
I am not okay with allegations that he denigrated or impugned Andal.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Tamilnad is a place where chappals were thrown at the portrait of Lord Rama .! as if Kamba Ramayanam is not the crown jewel of Thamizh! and the then Police minister Sri.Kakkan had the perpetrators arrested. . The issue here is not about the delicious poetry of Kathai AndaaL. but about her divinity ,totally unrelated to the language and literary issues. . Vairamuthu is always talking about the contribution of Kothai to thamizh language. but ridicules her divinity. and the glorious tradition, for centuries.( 600 AD to the present day.. 1400 years! is it not amazing? Even today, we have nuns in christian religion. and held in very high esteem , rightly so. In my earlier post, I had mentioned Kavunthi AdikaL of Silappathikaaram. In Madurai , there are quite a few Jain lady monks. It is a noble tradition, the world over. In fact, the Catholic Church is very close to Vaishnava Sampradhayam and Siavite Agama rituals. True! rituals alone are not religion but they add great beauty to worship. Rationalists may poke fun at Venkatesa Suprabatham. 'but do they understand the meaning? 'thrai lokyam mangalaM kuru''. Similarly, Kothai prays ' theengindri Naadellaam thingal mummaari peythu. ' .'vaangak kudam niraikkum vaLLal perum pasukkaL', neengaatha selvam.. Dr.APJ Kalaam is all amazement and worshipful respect to Kothai's poetry and spirit, For , he was no pseudo theist. Though Kothai is supposed to be a brahmin girl, her entire thiruppaavai is about the yadhava families. That is thamizh tradition and historical reality of mullai nilam. from sangam period itself. How can anybody in his senses vulgarize such a noble soul? ..is it not a fact that vairamuthu spoke ill of our religious belief of Kothai's soul merging with that of the Lord? He is now trying to gloss over it. It is said that Smt.M.K.Stalin (Durga) herself is a devotee of AndaaL. God bless her. That is fine. DMK credo is not atheism . It is just against religious hatred and bigotry. There is no political party except the lunatic fringe of political philistines ( all pseudo-marxists, unlike the olden days) which is against any religion. Think out of the vote-bank box and condemn this crude affront if you are a real progressive and cultured person. No excuse. If Vairamuthu really realizes his crude, rude and inexcusable vulgarity of his 'learned and scholarly' remark , he should not have any hesitation to prostrate at the feet of our Holy Mother and seek her pardon . She is Lakshmi . embodiment of Dhayaa.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 22:37 Similarly, Kothai prays ' theengindri Naadellaam thingal mummaari peythu. '
Vairamuthu quotes exact same line to extol Andal and her concern for the society at large. He calls her his second mother, the one who tutored him.

If you have so much intolerance and hatred for a non-believer simply for that, I am afraid your religion is doing you no good.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

rshankar wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 21:15
Nick H wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 16:25Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.
Smelling salts OR a few tight slaps?
You're the medical man! Leave it to you...

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

#129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?".. how would he take it if called 'dava-adiyaL mavan? . I have no issues with 'modern-jackasses', secularist,'progressive gang'. so long as they confine themselves to their gutter-hippie ganja dens.Leave sacred things alone. which they cannot understand...a crowd which wallows in fleshy thoughts alone. Who cares if he is a tamil-poet of some value? useless 'thaNNeer dhesam'. dirty rags.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

a crowd which wallows in fleshy thoughts alone
Where's shankarank when we need him? To point out that fleshy thoughts were just fine until the colonialists arrived and said they weren't. And the left. And no, I'm not joking, the left can be a very prudish lot!

:lol: :twisted: :twisted: :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

NickH - at this instance an elderly person is putting out his tApam - and I respect him!!! But I also understand Vairamuttu's due diligence of studying various scholars, until he went into quoting from sociological approaches - which have not benefited anyone!

Concepts like Patriarchal class, Land owning class, population that was religious - etc. are thrown about Andal's period!!

Here is the position of the most liberal of all societies - today!!:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/j ... are_btn_tw

As regards history of colonialism:

The exact quote by Jomo Kenyatta on the arrival of Christianity in Kenya:
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

So that is land ownership, patriarchy, and religion all rolled into one!

When theories get exported, without the "practical" - I mean it in a simpleton way - like our friend bombal in brief history of time , where I theorized about Mridangam ( with actually a lived experience of all of golden era of Carnatic music ) , shouldn't Vairamuttu , the thinker of all thinkers - or just like how we say musician's musician - we can say thinker's thinker - should he not be expected to think about all this??!!

Hum..?

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

I'm sorry if it hurts RSR's feelings... But the view that he expressed seems to owe more to imported British "morality," which was always hypocritical anyway, than to anything else. I suspect that you'd readily agree that steeling the land was possibly the lesser harm that the missionaries did to the cultures they invaded.

But my views on this are fairly well known, and perhaps a little extreme too. And I don't want the christian
mob at my door!

sankark
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 05:53
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.
Ouch.

http://kentakepage.com/ten-powerful-quo ... -kenyatta/ the above one figures there with the other 9.

There is an African proverb flash in that page - "Until lions have their own historian, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunters" - very relevant for the history (whether it is THE history or so-called history)

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

"Vairamuthu, American Universities and Tamizh"

A somewhat strong article (in Tamizh) on the "research aspects" of the poet's writings on the subject:

http://www.tamilhindu.com/2018/01/%E0%A ... %E0%AE%AA/

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 12:38 I'm sorry if it hurts RSR's feelings... But the view that he expressed seems to owe more to imported British "morality," which was always hypocritical anyway, than to anything else. I suspect that you'd readily agree that steeling the land was possibly the lesser harm that the missionaries did to the cultures they invaded.

But my views on this are fairly well known, and perhaps a little extreme too. And I don't want the christian
mob at my door!
May be. The moral judgments on the other (colonized) are used to create atrocity literature ( in the true tradition of their religious construction! - how they built it by doing it on Jews) so that the native population is discredited enough to be pliable to be ruled over!

That the native population became more "moral" is purely darwinian - given that they were then ruled by somebody new! There are no universal "moral" improvements that can be claimed. The "old" was good for them and the "new" possibly allowed them to survive the "new" conditions.

So we don't need to bring in hypocrisy to argue this one! Lets give the benefit of the doubt that the people who came in actually adhered to what they preached! That the land is theirs after the cross is planted is established doctrinally in Christianity. So the issue is with how the preaching itself came about.

The natives anyway paid for the supposed "benefit" - so we don't need to give any civilizing credits - as the colonizer learnt a lot as well!

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

And here is an effective debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYteFtrUz1I

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Before you read me as anti-christian, I let it be known that the reason I think, I am in America is because of decline of Protestant values and work ethic in America, as much as Corporations' zeal to reduce costs. Lot of Indians credit Pres. Kennedy , the immoral Catholic that relaxed immigration rules and think that liberalism protects them! Well liberalism created conditions for them to come in here, in it's own worse ways!

And hypocrisy is an argument that instead should be directed against them, as they are the first to question everything past!

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 18:44 And here is an effective debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYteFtrUz1I
In this debate, a dravidian representative propounded a conspiracy theory that for daring to write erotic verses Andal was taken all the way from Srivilliputhur to Srirangam to be killed there and this needs research! Much of this so-called dravidian discourse is agenda driven. A recent "rationalist" conference (at Tiruchirapally) was inaugurated by a pro-DMK Christian pastor. In these events usually Hindu beliefs and customs are questioned and ridiculed.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@135-> Nick-> 1) Eroticism and considering it as an animal level instinct, is not due to any Christian influence. It is the main tenet in Jainism, Buddhism and even Manusmurthi. 'kaamam ,krodham, lobam ,moham -thykthva ' says Adi Sankara's Bajagovindham. 600 AD As you may know, orthodox brahminism speaks of varNa -aasrama dharmam. Chathurvarnam maya srustitham, guna thraya vibahath'. Sages and seers are brahmins. Warriors to defend people against internal and external enemies are kshathriyas. People engaged in economic life of production and distribution are vaisyas. People who offer labour are the fourth and there is no fifth. Lokamanya Thilak, categorically spoke in a public meeting at Kasi, ( as quoted by Barathy), that these varnams are not by birth but by the nature of service to society that is given according to one's ability. .As for the 4 ashrams, first we have life as a learner, then as a gruhastha, then vanaprastham retreat into forest seeking solitude ) and finally sanyasam. Gruhastha life is meant for feeding the students and adhithis. Carnal union is meant only for getting progeny. Manu says that only the first born is duty-based. and after that, it is carnal. KUraL says that gruhastha is the sustaining basis for the other three. It is not an accident that great saints and mystics in our recent history, shun carnal life. ( Ramana Maharishi, Shirdi Saibaba, Kanch MahA periyaval, Narayana guru, Ramakrushna Paramahamsa, ) Subramanya Siva rejected family life though married. ' ..............., maa ga moha aavesam, aethath mamsava saadhu vihaaram' says bajagovindham. .. I think, music is meant to be heard and not seen!. Hence, my plea not to bring in any videos for CM. If at all, it may be just one image . as tube does not accept audio alone without some image.
https://youtu.be/O2Trm7q-fdE
==============================
'left' in political science refers to the doctrine that extols communal ownership of means of production and economic equality . It places economic equality above social and political equality because, without attaining economic equality, the other two are not really realized. Communal ownership is not at all alien to Indian Ethos. Infact it is the norm of 'Asiatic mode of production'. . I am afraid that you are confusing 'Left' with ' common ownership of women as well, which Barathy condemns as animal 'love'. It is high time, that we avoid mixing up kaamam and premam.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers. How many of us have read Dhammapadha? (RhysDavis). How is it that so many 'thanthric' practices entered into it later ? Some scholars hold that all those explicitly erotic sculptures in our temples are because of such degenerated Buddhism. Compare that with the paintings and architecture of the Church. and even better , no paintings at all of the Islam. Did vedic recitation have erotic passages? . None to the extent known to me. . All institutions get corrupted in course of time. There is Christian work ethics. no such thing as protestant work ethics. Henry VIII rebelled against the Pope not for any theological reason. and created the Anglican Church.( national). but the label only was changed. It was in the reign of King James that Scotland and England were united again, and he was a Catholic. The Authorized version of the Bible was created during that time. The Puritanical revolution followed but left many sincere christians dis-satisfied. ( among them the Quakers). Atrocities were committed against Quakers as well. Then came a period of vulgarity and permissiveness. and some corrective measures. The reformers were all Whigs. In India, in the East India Company century ( 1757-1857),
the preachers were mostly zealous puritans and did rouse the dormant soul of justice in the minds of scholars in Bengal. After 1857, ( direct rule by Britain, the Calcutta, Bombay and Madras universities were established. and its early products like Justice Ranade, Tilak, and in Madras, G.Subramanya Iyer of Swadesamithran and Judge Mani Iyer, did great work of reform of a moribund society. Instead of ritualistic teaching in sanskrit and in madrasas, we got science , technology and modern economics. Of course, we did have a great tradition but it had been lost for many centuries. And in the final analysis, India did benefit . It is not true that Christianity entered through Imperialists. It came to the central Kerala as early as the first century AD through St.Thomas. and Syrian Catholics in Kerala are very much proud of their Indian Nationality. Many of them are great scholars in Sanskrit. . Both Catholic and Protestant missions did great work in bringing higher and modern education to the underprivileged of our society. Mission hospitals were established and made medical facility available to the poor. We had great champions of India's national cause in people like CFAndrews, Sister Niveditha, . It is true that many missionary activities are working as paid agents of Imperialism but let us not tar all of them by the same brush. Principles, Practice, Personalities, and finally pernicious pettiness ... seem to be the law of nature. Re assertion occurs every now and then in periods of great social turmoil.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Gandhiji's introduction to the booklet ' Practice and Precepts of Jesus' by J.C.Kumarappa published by Navjivan in 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A WORD
Having carefully gone through these chapters, I can recommend their perusal to every believer in God, be he a Christian or a follower of any other religion. The booklet presents Professor J. C. Kumarappa's views on Christian teaching in
a nutshell. It is a revolutionary view of Jesus as a man of God. It is none the less revealing and interesting. The interpretation of the Lord's Prayer is novel and refreshing as are many other interpretations.
If all believe as Prof. Kumarappa does, there will be no religious feuds and rivalries between sects and sects and different religions. Anyway, this reading of the Bible must bring solace to the Christians of India. If they will read the
Bible as Prof. Kumarappa does, they need not be apologetic of their forefathers or their ancient faith. What is bad and superstitious in the old they are able to throw off by means of the liberal teaching presented in the following pages but
it helps one to see that there is much of the old which is imperishable and worthy of being treasured.
Indeed, Prof. Kumarappa has a message beyond the confines of India. He speaks with confidence born of a living faith in the belief that the West, though nominally Christian, has not known the true Jesus of the Gospels.

As I was going through these pages, I was reminded of the late Advocate F. A. Laughton of Durban. I was then no student of Roman Dutch Law nor of the case law of the four States of South Africa. In difficulty, therefore, I used to go to Mr
Laughton for help. But, after I had done with my work he would proudly bring forth from his drawer a green cover book with his father's annotations from the Bible. It was Edwin Arnold's] Song Celestial, and had Mr Laughton's father's parallel passages from the Bible showing that there was much in common between the New Testament and the Gita. I was then a novice trying to find out Truth in all its aspects without then knowing that I was so doing. Prof. Kumarappa's interpretation with copious quotations from the Bible reminded me of what I used to believe even as early as 1894-95. I can, therefore, speak from experience of the truth of the interpretation of the Gospels, given in the following pages by Prof. Kumarappa.
Sevagram,
M. K. Gandhi
21-3-'45

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 22:37 Tamilnad is a place where chappals were thrown at the portrait of Lord Rama .!
Not justifying it or anything but could be considered blowback for burning Ravana effigies every year at multiple places all over the country. Just this year a tribe in Madhya Pradesh approached their high court to ban these burning festivities as they considered Ravana their deity.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 00:32 #129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?"
He never said the last 2 things. May be you are just listening to the Hindutva squad rather than to him.
The rest of your post puts you in pretty horrible light. I would take Vairamuthu's words any day over these.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

@#144 -> It is amazing how a stream of thought now posited as universal truth ( one version or supposedly the best one) is received so differently and has had different effects and outcomes in different lands and peoples. People somehow read into it what they want to read into it and kept their diversity in spite of all attempts to homogenize! Some people are able to claim that others have not understood it as well! Fascinating! :D

It's almost like it is waiting for the next vyAsa to do a vyakhyAna!

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 22:52 Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers.
Why are you not able to view Atheism as just another religion?

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 09:25
RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 00:32 #129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?"
He never said the last 2 things. May be you are just listening to the Hindutva squad rather than to him.
The rest of your post puts you in pretty horrible light. I would take Vairamuthu's words any day over these.
This article asks good questions - why we don't narrate their good deeds!

https://www.vikatan.com/news/tamilnadu/ ... -much.html

Well those who raised opposition to the bill said it is a divine matter - true. But then the Bill set rest to that! Now those who try to use the word in praiseworthy fashion actually are trying to remove divinity from even divine entities!

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 10:20
RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 22:52 Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers.
Why are you not able to view Atheism as just another religion?
It should be easily! After all its religions that fight over Gods!!! :lol:

In the purANas - the gods themselves sometimes fight each other - giving us a nice story to listen to and be fascinated!!
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Jan 2018, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Might be dressed as Hindu, might even quote Hindu authority... But those Roman Catholics would be proud of some of the recent stuff in this thread.

Joyless procreation! Ah, yes, that would be the missionary position.

harimau
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by harimau »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 05:53 As regards history of colonialism:

The exact quote by Jomo Kenyatta on the arrival of Christianity in Kenya:
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.
Jomo Kenyatta himself seems to have only quoted some unknown Hawaiian:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=KSw ... nd&f=false

See the bottom of Page 119.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

it all depends on the person who reads...& his perception. .. To a protestant...catholic view. ; to an anti-hindhuthva , a vedic 'kudumi..! ....that apart, Nick should read George Eliot's Adam Bede.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

... Love triangle, child murder, hangings. Sounds good!

Actually, I'm fond of a lot of Victorian literature, but I don't think I've read George Eliot. Anyway, I think I'll pass on this one, for now at any rate. Is she like Thomas Hardy? All is for the worst in the worst of all possible worlds depressing? Hang on, I'll just have a drink and sell my wife...

uday_shankar
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by uday_shankar »

Nick H wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 12:42Joyless procreation! Ah, yes, that would be the missionary position.
Wicked, wicked, wickedly brilliant.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@154-> Once again, 'perception'. No ! Nick. You can atleast 'google' for Adam Bede. ( I suspect that you got your 'brilliant summary ' from there already!... It is about the work ethics of Adam, and the ethical and propagandist zeal of the heroine. All that in Protestant England. No. George Eliot was least like Thomas Hardy. who in his own way gave us many great novels, Tess, Jude, Far from... . Mayor of.. , under the greenwood.. and a few more. Coal to NewCastle? No!. like western powers using Indian Rockets! Silas Marner...another gem from her pen, is a rebuttal of cynics. We can do without 'pakkavaadhyams' especially 'otthu' ( what is the exact word for that in your learned ;music 'circle? especially 'naiyaandi maeLam' ?

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Tell us, RSR, about Protestant England...

Althuogh I don't really wish to discuss any brand of christianity, because, personally, I have no time for it whatsoever. But I guess I unavoidably know a little about protestant England. A smidgin about Catholic England too! I have no need of Victorian literature on that one.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

harimau wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 12:35
shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 05:53 As regards history of colonialism:

The exact quote by Jomo Kenyatta on the arrival of Christianity in Kenya:
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.
Jomo Kenyatta himself seems to have only quoted some unknown Hawaiian:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=KSw ... nd&f=false

See the bottom of Page 119.
If Jomo Kenyatta narrated the same experience of his ancestors, then he only borrowed words!

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 15:35 it all depends on the person who reads...& his perception. .. To a protestant...catholic view. ; to an anti-hindhuthva , a vedic 'kudumi..! ....that apart, Nick should read George Eliot's Adam Bede.
And of course none of that can rival the one and only [Ahem!] objective view of the world - held by you all know who! :twisted:

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

uday_shankar wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 20:12
Nick H wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 12:42Joyless procreation! Ah, yes, that would be the missionary position.
Wicked, wicked, wickedly brilliant.
I agree!! 😁👍🏻

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 26 Jan 2018, 07:37
uday_shankar wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 20:12
Nick H wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 12:42Joyless procreation! Ah, yes, that would be the missionary position.
Wicked, wicked, wickedly brilliant.
I agree!! 😁👍🏻
NickH is envious of our languages and trying hard to get [Ahem!] SRngAra rasa into English - where none exists :twisted: :lol:

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

''joyless procreation'..... I think , it is already a reality. Test tube babies. Today's news about Successful cloning of 'monkeys' by Chinese scientists.. Within a few decades..it may be 'successful cloning of humans' with desired characteristics. ( what those 'characteristics' are open to discussion perhaps). .. Genetic Engineering, Eugenics ....
just hints... Julian Huxley. Not a bad idea at all. depending on who implements it. High time to realize that the 'varNa' system which held the thinkers and seers at the higher-most pedestal,,,may have been right after all.Huxley ( Julian) was bemoaning in his 'Essays of a Biologist (1923) book, that the more enlightened, refined and talented are turning away from the task of adding to the human population. and so their proportion is continuously declining. Decline of rate of population growth, in the Western Europe may not be entirely due to 'family planning' but greater interest in other 'creative' activities! In a joyless world of toil, hunger and disease and pain, only, people turn to 'entertainment'....With higher standards of living, growth rate of populations declines. India should be scared like hell that its present population has very highr percentage of youngsters ,all votaries of unrestrained 'enjoyment'. Instead of 'joyless procreation',
Thousands of years back, 'vamsa vruddhi' was perhaps a social duty. ( as happened in Stalinist Russia,,after the second world war). Today, Art to serve National interest should give more importance to renunciation. No?
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"Huxley came from the distinguished Huxley family. His brother was the writer Aldous Huxley, and his half-brother a fellow biologist and Nobel laureate, Andrew Huxley; his father was writer and editor Leonard Huxley; and his paternal grandfather was Thomas Henry Huxley, a friend and supporter of Charles Darwin and proponent of evolution. His maternal grandfather was the academic Tom Arnold, his great-uncle was poet Matthew Arnold and his great-grandfather was Thomas Arnold of Rugby School. ..... In 1931 Huxley visited the USSR at the invitation of Intourist, where initially he admired the results of social and economic planning on a large scale. Later, back in the United Kingdom, he became a founding member of the think tank Political and Economic Planning... His idea of restraining population growth with birth control was anathema to both the Catholic Church and the Comintern/Cominform
......Many people assert that this abandonment of the god hypothesis means the abandonment of all religion and all moral sanctions. This is simply not true. But it does mean, once our relief at jettisoning an outdated piece of ideological furniture is over, that we must construct something to take its place.'

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Many people assert that this abandonment of the god hypothesis means the abandonment of all religion and all moral sanctions. This is simply not true. But it does mean, once our relief at jettisoning an outdated piece of ideological furniture is over, that we must construct something to take its place.
Never mind Huxley. I can tell you that abandoment of a god hypothesis can well mean abandoning religion, but does not necessarily imply abandoning anything else. Life, physical, metaphysical , and even if you like, spiritual, goes on. There is no requirement for one who does not have a god to even be a materialist.

Does this have anything to do with anything? Who knows. Whatever is happening to this site these days is catching! So let me throw my irrelevant ramblings into the heap. They are just as good as anybody else's. Whether anybody else thinks so or not.

Now I shall ignore this this thread.

In fact, these days, I am looking, not so much at the thread title, but at the name of the last poster. It saves a lot of irritation.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 26 Jan 2018, 16:35 In fact, these days, I am looking, not so much at the thread title, but at the name of the last poster. It saves a lot of irritation.
That kind of explains immediate posts from specific posters after I post - quite a good number of instances, sometimes to even move the thread to a new page etc.! ;)

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 26 Jan 2018, 16:35 Never mind Huxley. I can tell you that abandoment of a god hypothesis can well mean abandoning religion, but does not necessarily imply abandoning anything else. Life, physical, metaphysical , and even if you like, spiritual, goes on. There is no requirement for one who does not have a god to even be a materialist.
This culture has found ways to draw any materialist into believing something if not god. Planets or the Pulse - the human body pulse - Pulse astrology - nADi jOtiDam!! Whether you call them materialists or some superstitious bunch , according to a key rationalist spokesperson, near and around Vaitheeswaran koil , where the deity is a doctor that cures, once it used to be that Pulse astrologers were available around the temple. Now though the temple sits amidst Pulse astrologers - a sea of them!!

If they all believed in some "God" at least they will not treat the Pulse astrologers as a messenger of God!

You can make your universal judgement - but somewhere some place it will be violated in India. :twisted:

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@163->
In fact, these days, I am looking, not so much at the thread title, but at the name of the last poster. It saves a lot of irritation.
Now....Mr.Nick. Take it easy. ...I was merely writing about some social problems. germane to this thread. from both the theist and atheist angles. Wondering..what made you bristle. . If you avoid a thread just because the latest post happens to be from so-and-so, you may miss some great posts prior to them in the stack! Luckily, you can avoid reading mine. as it is a big banner in capital letters that too..

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 22:11 Contrast this with the lectures by Com.Jeevanandam on Ramayanam and of ma.po.ci. on Silappathikaram. Judge Ismail 's inspiring discourses on Ramayanam. Kalaigyar Karunanidhi himself will be known for his appreciative work on Saint Ramanuja.
The person who is inspired by your Comrade Jeevanadam and ReTTamalai Srinivasan is Seeman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCpC4M0CUOA

If you replace tamizh with Sanskrit/Prakrit in his speech, you pretty much got the plight of North India. They have lost their language and they are clinging onto Hindi - which is recent!

But it is interesting that Marxism now somehow finds its way into nativist discourses.

He talks about languages, cultures, birds, trees and ecology:
https://youtu.be/OCpC4M0CUOA?t=3267

Did Marxism ever think about that? Totally feeling convoluted reading this : https://monthlyreview.org/2016/06/01/ma ... -the-left/

Our rishis created new Sandhi expressions from birds - from their music!! We are now talking in terms of religion, belief, hurt feelings - prisoners of our own circumstances and surroundings - and we allowed them to call our practices rituals.

And we cannot talk like Seeman about the roots!

See here : http://www.endangeredspeciesinternation ... irds4.html - it reasons out importance of birds, but then says what?
More benignly, birds appear in ancient art and mythology worldwide.
benign? That is a violence of language on natives! This is the anthropological method. It is rejection of basic truth about humans: that humans can reason , but also have emotions!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/I6UjKslkAH8?t=472

Farming and Child labor - the contribution of the leftist liberals! A typical Hindu article talks about this in these terms.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns ... 560563.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 077117.ece

And we have filled our academia with full of such people. Vicious cycle of destruction!

When I pick Okra ( venDakkai) in grocery store, I no longer do the tip test - as I grew them in galore in my garden and will know by touch what is good!

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