Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

[shankarank]

Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband.

She must have whispered this in your ear since I or anyone else I know has never heard of this

Well a musician narrated this as a simile ( as to how each of the pativratas have a blemish!) , so do the greats of golden era, one cannot hold kARvai, one other top sa, another one lacks sAreeram and so on .. but were still able to work around their respective short falls

You have not been around them quite looks like !!

[jshrikanth]

Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband.

She must have whispered this in your ear since I or anyone else I know has never heard of this

This is a folk tale made famous after the Marathi folk musical drama 'Jambul-Akhyana'. I'd seen the play nearly 3 decades ago in Mumbai and remember being part of several (often heated) discussions in the college hostel/ canteen.

The story (as far as I remember) goes that, during their vanavaasa, the Pandavas and Draupadi each jambul fruit (jamun in Hindi, naaval pazham in Tamil) from a forbidden grove and need to get the purple stains off their tongues. Krishna, their rescuer as usual, tells them that these are magical fruit and the stains will be removed if the eater has no secrets in their heart. He advises them to unburden themseleves of their hidden secrets and wishes. Each Pandava does so and the last is Draupadi. And her last secret is that "if she were married to Karna, she would not have had to go through all the insults, public humiliation, pain of being gambled away, misery of years of forest life".

Apart from folk tales, the only reference I found (at that time) to this story was in Irawati Karve's wonderful little book Yuganta. In it she says the story is from a Jain Purana.

BTW, Yuganta is a must read for Mahabharata lovers. It is a series of small essays about the major characters in the Mahabharata. Each eassay is a rumination about the character as a human being, their virtues and foibles, issues/ circumstances faced, decisions made, consequences. Very sensitively written, but not pulling punches either.

[RSR]

@27->well said. This is the version that I too remember.. Mahabaratha was a story of historical ages. and there have been any number of additions during the course of centuries. True, the Sermon on the Mount condemns adultery.( i hope that there are no people here who appreciate adultery!). Yet , the same Jesus , reprimands the crowd that threw stones at Mary Magdalene, for being unchaste. 'Search your heart sincerely , if you have not ever coveted another 's woman. If you can be that sure that you are pure, you can then punish this hapless woman.' The crowd of stone-throwers melted away. At least, they had the grace to disperse. !. There are certain 'upaadhais' connected with human body like hunger, thirst, fear of pain, and such. If normal functions fail, it leads to death. kidney failure. and colon failure and such... This may not be the case with carnal desire and fulfillment. People who have conquered the self, ( pride, greed, lust, and desire) are known as sages. and saints. Shall we denigrate such seers like Ramana Maharishi, Paramahamsa and Shirdi Saibaba, all of them mystics, just because we are unable to attain that level? Shall we drag Sadaasiva BrammendraaL to our level? He used to wander about as Digambara. like Sage Suga. Let us have the culture to absorb the good things and leave out the bad things.. Though variety is the spice of life, there ARE good things and BAD things. we cannot equate them unless we are lazy hippies. That sense of discrimination , known as sense of values, and good taste is the hallmark of a rasika and that of this forum.

[kvchellappa]

I have not read the speech that is under attack, but this one twittered by V Ramnarayan I read and like:
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/b ... omen-74560

[shankarank]

@28 -> RSR , as I have said many times, the critique is about the institutions after Jesus (you essentially made my point there!). Jesus' teachings are worth a ponder just like everything else.

As regards Mahabharata and the Draupadi story, it was used to only show to what great heights the golden era musicians strove to take the art - ooh!..ooh!..

[Nick H]

Jesus' teachings are worth a ponder just like everything else.

Apparently, Paul wrote most of them. And, if there is anything good in there (ok, there is,) it is the basic human ethics which christians seem to think they and their jesus invented.

Well... this is my particular rant subject, so have to vent it once in a while!

[shankarank]

Nick, Indian tradition is not [Ahem!] history centric - so if they say Jesus said it, that is good enough as per tradition - well I don't speak for Indians or even myself there.

[shankarank]

So here is the latest rebuttal in the editorial section:

http://www.dinamani.com/editorial-artic ... 42381.html

[shankarank]

And here is Bharati's writing on the subject - Sorry accessible to only those that can read tamizh:

https://imgur.com/a/O9kgV

[shankarank]

While discussing Women and music in general, Bharathy talks about Talam and in passing records the attitude towards the dAsis.

If we convert the message into action for today, males should learn a percussion or dance and same for females!

https://imgur.com/a/PQYhT

[RSR]

@35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. are Madurai Mani Iyer , Aalathoor brothers, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Dandapani Desikar,
Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Karaikkudi Samabasiva Iyer, T.R.Mahalkingam ( flute), Mysore Chowdiah, Palladam Sanjeeva Rao,
Devakottai Narayana Iengar, Chembai Vaidjyanatha Bagavathar, Smt.D.K.PattammaaL, Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi ( 'thulasi dhaLam uchyathe'), N.C.Vasanthakokilam ( unfortunate woman artiste), K.B.SundarambaaL,Radha-Jayalakhmi, ..They were all products of the Gandhi era and were of spotless character. . So far as I know, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai was said to be ostentatious in life style but no other weakness. and had the greatest regard to Kanchi Maha PeriyavaaL. The regard was mutual too. Madurai Mani Iyer's life is enough to melt even the stone-hearted. Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.

[Ranganayaki]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1063686787

This post of yours shows your views in a rather poor light, RSachi.

1. Strange that you would prescribe to Ms. Pillai what she needs to do about her feelings. You have never been in her shoes and yet you are knowledgeable enough of her situation to tell her exactly what she should do and how she SHOULD feel about your supposed respect for her community. Your words about her deep feelings in her post lack both empathy and compassion for her, a real person.
2. How do you know that the destruction of the devadasi system was not an insult to individual devadasis? You say that destroying all of devadasi culture was an attempt to end the practice of prostitution as a profession. If that was not an insult to individual devadasis then - and also now through your words - what exactly was it? A compliment? And the destruction a favor?
3. You offer a strange reason why these claims about Andal are offensive. How does the claim that she was connected to the temple through her alleged devadasi origin introduce the notion that she wanted to earn a living out of her devotion? How does this sudden claim by Vairamuthu or any researcher suggest that "she allowed herself to be a part of the sex-oriented profession." In the light of such a view, if today someone (like you) acknowledges MSS or Vina Dhanammal or all those personalities you cite as being of devadasi origin, is that automatically insulting in the way you are offended by the alleged devadasi origin of Andal? Why not? You are able to claim in your post that you have great respect for all these doyens, but you are offended by all sorts of implications that you declare are made by the notion of Andal belonging to their own community. Strange double standard, and very strange, your claim of respect for isai Vellalars, devadasis, MSS, Brinda, Bala, the Tanhore Quartet, etc.
4. It is very easy to get offended as you do by these questions, and lose clarity in the discussion of this Andal question.
5. Your second last sentence doesn't make much sense, especially with its inverted commas.

One cannot truly respect MSS, Brinda, Mukta, and all those wonderful people without acknowledging and honoring their community of origin which is what nurtured their talent as they grew up and MAY even make for their genetic predisposition for it. We all have benefited from it, and are indebted to all the influences that made for the growth of their talent, including their devadasi origin.

When we shout somebody like TMK down for referring to it, and when we claim that he is being disrespectful to MSS for referring to her origin, it is in fact we who are disrespectful, because we think that saying that she was ever anything other than the beautiful Brahmin wife she became is so abhorrent to us. But if we do acknowledge everything about her life and don't feel we need to stay "politely" mum - about her mum, may be - then we will be respecting her (and her mother) correctly AND showing less disrespect to her community of birth who in reality made her.

RSachi, what happened to the devadasis was an atrocity. But I do not judge the people who made it happen. In those times, they did the best they knew. But in today's world we have no excuse to hide our heads under the sand and negate everything we know about human rights, women's rights, sexual harassment, abuse of power, and say that it was right to wipe out the devadasis.

It was that culture that mainly preserved what we all claim to love. They were great dancers and musicians. They were dedicated to the temple. It was all they knew. It was natural for them to seek a better life. If there was no blanket protection for all of them, ensuring at least a basic sustenance, it was normal for them to accept protection from anyone who offered it.

If they were sexually exploited, it was not their fault. It was the fault of the men, all those famous and revered men who took advantage of the poor artist's plight and of their own power. That is the true evil of the devadasi system - the men preying on them and the lack of social protection.

But it was the devadasis who paid the price. Today they are no longer to be found, they do not have the purpose they had and they are like any of us. The temples are bereft of life-giving talent.

The offense in this Andal controversy is not the suggestion of devadasi origins, or any implication of baser conduct in Andal, but that such a study may be quoted by Vairamuthu without reference to any evidence that the study may or may not offer.

The calm question to ask is,"What is the evidence the researcher has offered to bolster his claim?" Instead of apologizing and thus insulting the people of devadasi origin, Vairamuthu should have offered what he knew of the evidence offered by the researcher and explained why he accepted it. Or he should admit that he did not see any evidence and retract his words, apologizing for his carelessness as a poet.

So does that study offer any evidence? As far as I am able to tell, it is not even clear where this research was conducted. And as for credibility, the speech seems to rely on the perceived greatness of American research as proof of credibility. The speech does not seem to even name the researcher or ensure his neutrality. It offers nothing at that level. (Correct me if I am wrong, i haven't heard the speech, i do acknowledge. I am going by what I remember of the article posted by Sureshvv.) An apology is appropriate, for that carelessness, and not for insulting Andal.

I agree with RSachi only on the point he makes that there does not seem to be a shred of historical or literary evidence of such an origin to Andal. RSachi is more certain of that then I am, but I am not very knowledgeable about all the details of Vaishnavite literature of that period. May be RSachi is, and he should enlighten us if he can. Certainly this notion is unheard of.

She might have been a devadasi. It is certainly true that she was found and raised lovingly by her father. But being of devadasi origin does not imply, as RSachi suggested, any desire for material gain, nor an involvement in prostitution. Her work stands by itself, her devotion is evident in her words, and the respect of over a thousand intervening years including her own contemporaries is to me evidence of her pristine mind, whether she was of devadasi origin or simply of unknown origin, raised by Periazhwar.

[RSR]

@35-> May I quote from my own post in a different forum? "MS ‘s mother ShanmugaVadivu was a famous Veena player. It is unfortunate that women of this community were denied the status of a wedded wife but it does not mean that they were not loyal, dignified and unwed wives . In the first flush of English education , the legal profession was very lucrative and most of the lawyers were from brahmin community and being part landlords too, they became patrons for budding artists, replacing the feudal barons. That was a healthy development."..
This from 'reminiscence of MS in her own words' by Gowri Ramnarayan. "My love of music was fanned by the atmosphere in our house. My mother didn’t take me to too many concerts by other musicians. But they often came to our house. Great musicians like Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer, Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar and Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar would drop in. Their names may sound difficult to you, but their music was like mountain honey. Pure and sweet.
These artists would sit down, drink coffee, roll paan and tuck it into their cheek, or take a pinch of snuff, and talk endlessly about great music and musicians. The musicians who visited us would often sing or play their instruments. A nod from my mother was like loud applause to them. Sometimes she would pluck the strings and play, and they would listen eagerly. Sometimes these maestros would ask me to sing. They would teach me a song or two. In those days praise was not scattered easily. A nod meant tremendous approval. ’You must do well’ meant we had reached a high standard.
Local musicians too would come home to pay their respects to mother. Whenever the temple deity was taken out in procession through the main streets, the nadaswaram players, at the head of the line, would stop where our little street branched off. Then they would play their best for mother. I would run out and watch. I would be entranced by the sights and sounds. The gods were gorgeously bedecked in silks and jewels and flowers. There was chanting. And the majestic melody of the nadaswaram pipes rose with the big tavil drums. That kind of music is perhaps gone forever."
-----------------
Barathy of course is talking about the need for 'brahmin' women to learn classical music with proper laya knowledge. He does not say, that all keerthans are laya based. In fact, he ridicules Patnam Subramanya Iyer's kruthis is giving too much importance to layam. Evidently, when anyone sings a classical piece, with prescribed thaalam, he/she should do it faultlessly. That does not mean, that there are no kruthis with least stress on layam.
Likewise, in Barathy's days, women ( of whatever community) would never appear before strangers and sing sitting in a dais. Nor would they dance in solo in public. . Not to be confused with spontaneous folk-group dances by village women and jodhra dance ( so-graceful1) in temple festivals.
On a personal note, my mother and all my aunts could play Veena reasonably well. Not for publicity or concerts. but as prayer. All my cousins (sisters) had learned classical music through vidwans and singing kruthis of the Trinity was routine for them almost everyday.
With reference to jayamohan article, you might have noticed how Jayakaanthan charaterizes AandaaL. Unlike jemo, Jeyakanthan had his schooling under Jeevanandham, of those years and it shows.

[RSR]

#31-> Nick-> Your understanding of the teachings of Jesus , is wrong. Like Buddha and Mahavira, Jesus insisted on absolute non-violence even against obvious evils and cruelty. For Buddhists and Jains, there was no God and there is only the cycle of birth and rebirth ( based on one's deeds ) 'punarapi jananam, punarapi maranam, punarapi janani jadare sayanam. as Sankara puts it. ( he was a buddhist in effect). But the Hindu classical pantheon has many Gods who fight Evil and route them. The message of Gita is not non-violence . Ends justify the means. Not so for Christ's true followers. Latter day Brahmanism adopted many of Gauthama's teachings . and the latterday Jesuists adopt Liberation Theology. Doctrines change and merge.and change. Dialectical. ( no. Not Marx. it was Hegel who coined that word) Ends decide. the means. Much of Jesus teachings are re-statement of the Ten Commandments. of the Jewish religion. Paul was an organizer. The difference in the language of Old testament, the gospel and latter additions is evident. The language and life style of Paramahamsa vs life of Vivekananda. illustrates it. No denigration meant.

[kvchellappa]

I am all at sea.
Is devadasi an inferior being? That can have no absolute answer because this notion of inferior is in the social consciousness of every society. 'Samatva' does not obtain. TMK or a member of an elite and aristocrat class like him is not the same as anybody else.
Is devadasi community to be perpetuated? Why? Today, there is so much permissiveness, single parent children, etc. and it is slowly getting accepted. Is it not better for achieving the equality one clamours for? Why have a community identity, which will never achieve the ideal one wants? What have they lost? Why should their past identity matter now? Why are we (they also) harping on it in today's society?
Was TMK trying to exalt devadasi community by pulling in that perspective in his tirade on MS? No, he was trying to parade his intelligence and new-found rationalism and iconoclasm. MS did not shy away from her identity and she achieved whatever she achieved with that identity. The society at large accepted her and admired her. To bring that tag again in a silly way was an ugly aberration, not a service to the community nor a deserved comment on the life of MS.
Was Andal from that community? I did not know. I am sure many would not have known. Why was that reference made now? Is it to do honour to that community? Certainly not. It was to hurt those that commemorate her memory through her immortal poetry. The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi. Why should one kindle the faded memory of the community and claim that one is honouring that community?
The intention of what one is saying comes through unless one is daft. It is that which causes ruffling of feathers.
I see no argument why devadasi community must have continued with or without social respect.

[shankarank]

@36 ->

@35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. .....
.........Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.

The simile had music on one side and conduct ( the women characters in epics!) on the other side. Conduct of musicians was not part of the equation. For me their music speaks and if they had good enough conduct to bring music to us and command respect in a sadas, that should be golden enough.

But I was just having a bit of mocky fun at the lofty comparison nevertheless , again without bringing their conduct into the equation.

Just making sure.. my twisty emoticon is not further twisted into something else!

[shankarank]

With reference to jayamohan article, you might have noticed how Jayakaanthan charaterizes AandaaL. Unlike jemo, Jeyakanthan had his schooling under Jeevanandham, of those years and it shows.

Now .. Now .. Now .. you are establishing a Rshi and a guru SiSya parampara for Marxism! My physics teacher narrated once how he was amused by a North Indian Phd. Candidate, working under a North Indian Guide, who would preface his/her dissertation with "I will present my work.. but Guruji will interpret it"... at the end adding in his inimitable style "There are no Gurujis in Physics!!".

So if this is all [Ahem!] social science, then type of schooling should not matter!

[shankarank]

The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi

In terms of ApaurushEyatva , the puruSha that is a creation - the identity is de-emphasized. So whatever is celebrated is not an identity. That is why even if earlier she was celebrated only within a certain identity - because things pass down as family tradition and gurukula of a certain tradition was restricted within that clan, as soon as the advent of information era (I would say post independence) and people living nearby across identities ( even keeping their own!) , she came to be appreciated by one and all!!

As soon as you talk of identity, you are talking body - not even the jIvAtma!

[Sachi_R]

Ranganayaki,
Yes, I did tell Ms. Pillai to get over her feelings. I think cool reflection needs it as a precondition, for her, you, or me. If you read the thread there on FB, you will see she cooled down a bit and we saw eye to eye.

Devadasi, as a caste/category of women who were serving in the temple and then serving society as concubines or prostitutes, was an evil as perceived by the enlightened people who banned it.

Why did they ban it? Perhaps all Devadasis would not have been accomplished and respected artistes, but were surely subject to the element of exploitation one can conjecture.

I agree we cannot judge those times and people's actions then, just as we cannot generalise our positive or negative assessment of current times.

Surely we cannot start writing articles that MSS sanitised her music and brahminicised her image for social and artistic public success and this is an evidence of social evil etc.

I have spoken to Mr S Krishnamurthy, (grandson of Sri Mysore Vasudevacharya), who knew MSS and Sadasivam well. He has written a very good book on MSS. I have translated the portion where he says MSS had explained to someone that she had made a deliberate and happy choice in her marriage because that would bring an honourable and safe position in society for her. It had nothing to do with music or name or fame.

The burden of my thought is we have to respect each human being and give him or her the due privacy. At the same time if a section of society is exploiting another, we should fight that evil. And if we are speaking about highly revered historical personalities, we should curtail conjecture and avoid imputation and scandal.

I don't read Tamil. I have been to Srivilliputtur, I have read and listened to umpteen accounts of Andal's holy life. She was the very young daughter of a temple priest who fell in love with God very much like Meera, Akka Mahadevi etc. Happily, unlike them, she did not suffer stigma or injustice. Definitely not the travails of a Devadasi.

[shankarank]

The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi

In terms of ApaurushEyatva , the puruSha that is a creation - the identity is de-emphasized. So whatever is celebrated is not an identity.

Having said that, the collective memory of a tradition within a clan of people is sacred - and should be treated as such by others as well. There you are talking Identity - but then the value (of treating it sacred!) observed, transcends identities!

The burden of my thought is we have to respect each human being and give him or her the due privacy.

I would prefer the "duty" perspective above, than any "right" perspective as rights are difficult to obtain and enforce - very resource intensive and unsustainable!

[Ranganayaki]

Ranganayaki,
Yes, I did tell Ms. Pillai to get over her feelings. I think cool reflection needs it as a precondition, for her, you, or me. If you read the thread there on FB, you will see she cooled down a bit and we saw eye to eye.

For your sake Sachi I did go and read that thread, because I could not imagine how you and Ms Pillai could have seen eye to eye without some sort of accommodation from you. I was not wrong. I don't understand how you imagine that you both ended up seeing eye to eye. She disagreed with you completely. You agreed a little condescendingly with her by saying you appreciate her respect for azhvars and artists. (You may not have been intentionally condescending). She clearly tells you that she cannot agree with you and that she is very much hurt and pained. Yet you delude yourself into thinking she "cooled down a bit." You imply that she listened to your wisdom about cool heads, causing her to agree with you. It did not happen. Worse, you gave her that Vivekananda example for no reason. Vivekananda walked out on this courtesan in a fit of righteous indignation and then was gracious enough to be moved by her singing and her theme. Yes, true story. What would your point have been? It's rather shameful, but even you cannot see it, sadly. And I considered you wise.

You don't achieve cool reflection by invalidating her fair and just opinion and then shoving your opinion to the forefront as true and as all that matters. You just caused her more hurt. Your own reflection is not cool either because you are offended by the Andal controversy and by tmk.

Devadasi, as a caste/category of women who were serving in the temple and then serving society as concubines or prostitutes, was an evil as perceived by the enlightened people who banned it.

At best they might have meant well, but they certainly weren't enlightened. Enlightened people would have fought the evil by offering the devadasis assured sustenance and punishing the exploiting men. They were foolish, throwing the baby with the bath water. Enlightened people don't eradicate an evil by destroying the victims. They destroy the perpetrators.

If you generalize devadasis serving society as concubines or prostitutes as the main evil, you are not enlightened either.

Why did they ban it? Perhaps all Devadasis would not have been accomplished and respected artistes, but were surely subject to the element of exploitation one can conjecture.

Yes all were probably not greatly accomplished. But you need a large number of aspirants to achieve a good number of greats. What you uphold as a great event is a classic case of, again, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I agree we cannot judge those times and people's actions then, just as we cannot generalise our positive or negative assessment of current times.

I don't know exactly what that line is about.

Surely we cannot start writing articles that MSS sanitised her music and brahminicised her image for social and artistic public success and this is an evidence of social evil etc.

I don't think that is what TMK said, though he did not care to express himself with clarity. Going by the wider body of his writings and speeches about MSS and devadasis, I gather that he was not attributing sinister motives to her. He was excoriating the prevalent attitude of upper caste people, who would not have accepted her without her transformation. Just as she made

a deliberate and happy choice

in getting married, it was a deliberate and happy choice to conform to brahminical expectations to consolidate her position in her new community. What's wrong with saying that. Women in every family feel he need to consolidate their position in their new family. For her it was a new community and her public as well. It is pragmatism, social wisdom. TMK seems to decry the need for that. It's quite simple.

When you see young artists who feel the need to wear marks of religion to gain acceptance as serious musicians it is an indication of this rather brahminical dominance. These artists would not wear these marks in their daily lives. I'm sure TMK also remembers this about himself, and that is probably what he is fighting against. Now, at this stage in his career, he can dare to be on stage without his shrichurnam. It's the same phenomenon.

At the same time if a section of society is exploiting another, we should fight that evil.

Yes, agreed, but how? By destroying the victim according to you? Or by punishing the powerful and moneyed perpetrator? Did they dare?

And if we are speaking about highly revered historical personalities, we should curtail conjecture and avoid imputation and scandal.

And we could stop imagining scandal where there is none.

I don't read Tamil. I have been to Srivilliputtur, I have read and listened to umpteen accounts of Andal's holy life. She was the very young daughter of a temple priest who fell in love with God very much like Meera, Akka Mahadevi etc. Happily, unlike them, she did not suffer stigma or injustice. Definitely not the travails of a Devadasi.

I agree. This question is irrelevant, and the proper response would be to ignore it. The wrong response is to claim Andal ( or her reputation) was sullied by the devadasi origin allegation, thus heaping insult on all devadasis.

You all need to stop referring to devadasis as prostitutes. A small number of them may have resorted to prostitution, more may have relied on a single man for sustenance and protection, and others may have had an independence brought to them by their talent. The main thing to remember about them is that they were the custodians of our art and culture. But all you people talk about is prostitution, and of their very existence as an evil. Terrible! Very mean!

[ram1999]

@35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. are Madurai Mani Iyer , Aalathoor brothers, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Dandapani Desikar,
Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Karaikkudi Samabasiva Iyer, T.R.Mahalkingam ( flute), Mysore Chowdiah, Palladam Sanjeeva Rao,
Devakottai Narayana Iengar, Chembai Vaidjyanatha Bagavathar, Smt.D.K.PattammaaL, Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi ( 'thulasi dhaLam uchyathe'), N.C.Vasanthakokilam ( unfortunate woman artiste), K.B.SundarambaaL,Radha-Jayalakhmi, ..They were all products of the Gandhi era and were of spotless character. . So far as I know, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai was said to be ostentatious in life style but no other weakness. and had the greatest regard to Kanchi Maha PeriyavaaL. The regard was mutual too. Madurai Mani Iyer's life is enough to melt even the stone-hearted. Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.

Gandhi era - Gandhi had hell a lot of spots. All the goof ups are affecting our country in a big way and seems irrepairable

[shankarank]

He was excoriating the prevalent attitude of upper caste people, who would not have accepted her without her transformation.

TMK decries the need for that.

So I don't understand how you can defend the liberal nitwitism of this kind - a straight playbook from sensitivity training given in the West on how to accept people of difference, except that the people of difference are already anglicized mostly, it is just that they may not be able to laugh at some of the humor! These are all the new sociology theories - which will soon see their end!

Every society looks for assimilation under normal circumstances. The society that MSS came into was not living the same lifestyle ( lets leave aside for a moment all the ritualistic pretensions of the Brahmins!) even in material terms. If she made a choice, then you cannot expect a society that is still shaping up trying to figure out what it's place is in the new Indian mileu, to change to accomodate the life style of her background that she herself walked away from even as an early adult! She had not lived it too long to know what that might be or what it may mean in the then current circumstances.

This is the new equality brigade exporting the new social theories to India , a sanitized version of Marx inspired liberalism that has never proven itself.

Give you an example: The western ranchers , who got their ranch as a prize for fighting in wars and wealthy fellows , setup Medical Insurance and liability laws so that doctors don't play with their lives and their estate can collect a hefty sum if something were to happen to them. Liberal nitwits thought that ou ought to be giv , give given to everybody . Except with that you wouldn't mostly find a qualified doctor nearby to check your temperature as most viable doctor businesses will not take such an insurance!

Get it?. Ask TMK to take his equality clause to his own little island , that may need to be sand-formed off the beaches - way off the territorial waters!

[Ranganayaki]

?

Shankarank, I would love to respond to you, but I have no idea what you said there. I understand it was a rant on various topics. I have tried, but have never been able to follow you. Sorry.

[shankarank]

Oh yeah you pretentious ! You don't even understand where your ideas came from! Good trick. I guess you are so ingrained in these that you have not questioned it and thought about it.

I am questioning why anyone should even expect Brahmins to accept as is , anyone who want to live with them and serve them in whatever form - like perform music to them? What is the argument here?

[kvchellappa]

shankarank ji,
I sail in the same pretentious boat with most of your posts, largely because I am not so well read.
If the purpose of your writing is that simpletons like me also should understand, perhaps you must adopt a simple and lucid style.

[shankarank]

OK then start answering my simple question asked in the last post. Why do we think it was bad for Brahmins to expect MSS to transform as she did and perform the music of their liking? Why do we say now that they should not have made her change?

And I would make more statements to aid you. The people who decided that devadasi system should go were not some enlightened people - they were sheep herd. Similar to how they believed and made next gen also believe that Freedom was won by Gandhi, Nehru and their group of people.

Not that Gandhi was not useful, he had good PR strategies to keep the population calm and not break out in fights! But that's about it!

[kvchellappa]

Thanks. I can make out now. I would like to restrain myself (rather unusually) as I do not have something to say to add to the discussion.

[Ranganayaki]

The more welcoming and inclusive we are, the cleaner our minds become, and the better our chance of becoming a godly people, like the righteous populations we learn about in our stories of yore. Every individual who practices inclusion has a good chance of purifying his mind.

[kvchellappa]

It does not have to be loud, raucous and demonstrative. It is not inclusive if it abuses one set of people to offset the exclusion of another set. Inclusiveness must come from love and genuine change of heart. It does not come through propaganda and a hate campaign. It comes through understanding, not argument. Arguments seal the borders and the groups fortify their positions. Inclusiveness is not achieved by newspaper articles in flowery language or by questioning all past. It is not achieved by symbolic gestures and desultory token events. It requires focus and not something like cattle grazing, a bite here and a bite there. It is not achieved by questioning the lives and motives of the people concerned. It is not an intellectual or scholarly exercise, but an intense social programme. There have been people who threw their lucrative professions away and attempted change all their life sincerely and with passion. They used their skills if possible to help the people affected, and they did not indulge in muddying their profession. They did not belittle their peers while moving away from the bigotry practised by many of them. It is not a case of a clarion call and all is well ever after like in a fairy tale.
I have blurted out though it is not relevant to Andal and the sinister insinuation. The insinuation does allude to the social stigma and that is an issue that has been touchy. But, the fact remains that the gentleman wanted to hurt the sentiments of the believers. In the process, he has hurt the sentiments of the community also.
I do not see how continuation of devadasi system would have been a service to them.

[Ranganayaki]

Whoa!! I was responding to Sankarank's question to me. I was expressing my feeling.

Regarding TMK, I do not speak for him. I speak of how I understand him, and I speak about my views of the nature of the discussions here. So your response to me is way heavier than I can handle. I spoke a simple truth. It is not political.

[Nick H]

On the aside...

#31-> Nick-> Your understanding of the teachings of Jesus , is wrong. Like Buddha and Mahavira, Jesus insisted on absolute non-violence even against obvious evils and cruelty. ... ... ...

Western/Christian thought (referring to Shakarank's earlier comment on India) is not history-centric either. It is a long time since I did any reading of, or about, the bible, and I don't care to do so now, but you should look to what has been been removed from it over the centuries. You may find that Jesus was not so much they gentle hippy that "they" want us to believe. You can even find some of it as the aprocryphal books.

Not all my information is strictly what might be called history-centric by formal scholars either. India is not the only place in the world to have mystics and the like!

Jesus insisting on non-violence is something that I do not, personally, believe.

[RSR]

#57-> The Gospel .. St.Mathew .. just about 25 pages.... Ennobling poetic prose. Worth reading everyday. What more can I say? My teacher Kuppusami Iyer taught us St.Mathew in our 8th class ( school). It was NOT a missionary school. While , reading George Eliot , later in my college days, I used to wonder, how much the English history revolved around the teachings of the Bible. and the local Church. . Have you read Lamb's essay on Quakers? How the Pilgrim Fathers left the country to practice real Christianity and sailed to the US? What a marvel!

[RSR]

#52-> Do read some history. especially of the events in England and India from 1789 .and in Europe. Do not speak irreverently of great leaders. If you have something positive to say, about them , good. If not, better to be silent. Rather than speaking ill of personalities whom the progressive intellectuals the world over, revere , it would be better to write positively about 'your' icons, so that the forum members can get an insight into your sense of values. At present, your posts are mere trolls. i know I will get a flood of abuse and smileys. Semi-literates only use smileys. Organize your thoughts and present a unified point of view. in straight and simple language. It is a question of style. Read good authors like Russell. both for ideas and language.

[shankarank]

RSR it is because of progressive intellectuals world over , why I have to say such irreverent things about great people. I have no other way of making my point.

My icons? I don't build my case using icons. I truly see that there has been no progress made without a countervailing ( that is grounded on dharma - a set of principles that has guided a society over time!) action or at least a threat of it.

It was intellectual in some cases, and in some context like Nethaji's case, it could be fighting a war.

But I find it amusing that Marxist scholars have sold the idea of non violence to a generation of Indians, when that entire body of thought has seen significant violence!

How the Pilgrim Fathers left the country to practice real Christianity and sailed to the US?

There is no way in which an Indian can read that in any positive sense knowing what happened. That we do it, is why people like Vairamuttu are running circles over us.

[sureshvv]

Reading Vairamuthu's apology and TMK's tweet it becomes apparent that there is a different connotation of the word Devadasi that they are using. What they are saying is Devadasi = feminst.

So in a period where girls were married off when barely in their teens, Andal decided to eschew that path and instead was focusing on her God given talent of being a poet. Devadasis were primarily feminists, who were allowed the freedom of pursuing their passion during a time when most women were not.

What we seem to be reacting to is the defintion that Devadasi = prostitute. While this may be partly true, this may be an unfair definition of a vast number of artistes of those times.

Even in the movie "Tillana Mohanambal", Mohana comes out as a woman passionate about her art, shunning the sinister machinations of her mother and finally marrying the musician she was in love with.

Once we change the connotation of Devadasi, it seems we can accommodate all views.

[kvchellappa]

When did the momentous change in the connotation of devadasi (devar adiyal in tamizh) take place? It is far from the case that the unparalleled Tamizh poet who can adjudicate on the poetry of Azhwars has used the expression to admire Andal for her independence, Tamizh patru and feminism (whatever it means). As to TMK, the less said the better.

[shankarank]

So in a period where girls were married off when barely in their teens,

Oh yeah - those were treacherous bad times!! We men have created such a good times amidst us , as clerks, accountants, lawyers and judges and IT fellows , Women only need to be liberated to make it even better! Just extrapolate Andal to all Women now - hunky dory , everything will be good!

From liberation theology to liberation philology , read all current fads into the past . Except that current fads are not valid even now - forget taking them back to old days!

There are great laws and the constitution except there is no rule of law. No body can bear true witness , as they lack self protection and state cannot protect them also.

Lets get rid of humans there - machines will help - Women are truly free ! : https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/bengaluru ... a-bad-idea

I don't know why we need Men on the front lines of territorial borders willing to sacrifice their lives , when no witness will risk their lives to uphold the republic and it's rule of law. Lets make it all machines and Women will operate them from call centers!

Yeah that's right - history now shifted from the kitchen to the call center : https://youtu.be/LLE_Idr2RSU?t=389 - Kitchen sink!!

RSR, you are tired of emoticons ( rasa bhavas) and want a good cogent argument in Text here is the one for you:

The more welcoming and inclusive we are, the cleaner our minds become, and the better our chance of becoming a godly people,

I don't know what they have lost by not being included. We started with great vAggEyakkaras , mutilated the compositions with non sensical sangatis. Then we said music is the empress! But we will not attend in large numbers any instrumental concert. Oh! It is beneath our ego or dignity, for us to sit in a sadas without great words being vocalized, even if we cannot make sense of them!

If sAhitya's meaning is enunciated with abhinaya in dance recitals , we won't go. Beneath our dignity to watch women move!

And finally Mridangam is just an accompaniment! It does not create music. It entertains!

And lo and behold we are supposed to be privileged upper caste elite - that have a treasure of rasikatvam with us that we have not shared with the sub-altern!

Only Marxists will ever come up such a classification! Yeah it fits their style - anthropological! What is this Mylapore Mama abandoned by his NRI children doing here?!

Even the vassal Zamindars whom we think are useless pensioners of the British look like great rasikas in front of this.

The general movie fan who enjoyed Vairamuttu looks more genuine!

As has been said, it is to the credit of the vaggEyakaras and their grand edifice, music is holding on as a parasite amidst this madness in suspended animation!

itula periya liberation philology vErA kEDU!! Declare that words are no longer important and music is suddenly accessible to all . "et tu" - that was in tamizh by the way!

Yeah that is right - the Text has caused all problems, great philological achievement, don't read it - get rid of it! Liberate from philology It is oppressive!!

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-5023631/

When asked about the absence of a strong instrumental tradition in Carnatic music, Krishna said while it was there earlier, the obsession with text and meend has affected the narrative.

RSR, cogent and textual enough???

[RSR]

#63-> No. Not yet. Still didactic. I have mentioned my view in the latest thread . ( threads should be numbered too). The admin should arrange for that).
As for Subash Chadra Bose, here is my take.
https://rsrblogs.wordpress.com/
Do you have a blog or website? You can do a better job of presenting your views on myriad topics there.

[ram1999]

#63-> No. Not yet. Still didactic. I have mentioned my view in the latest thread . ( threads should be numbered too). The admin should arrange for that).
As for Subash Chadra Bose, here is my take.
https://rsrblogs.wordpress.com/
Do you have a blog or website? You can do a better job of presenting your views on myriad topics there.

Whilst there could be truth in what is written, a difficult task to say which approach would have been right or wrong, the fact remains that British did not exit because of Gandhi's non violent movement or nehru's freedom fight.... it was the british economy that collapsed after the 2nd world war and it was untenable for them to govern the huge country (India). It perhaps was the timing that the entire credit has been given to gandhi / nehru.

Nevertheless, the blind faith / support that Gandhi exhibited towards Nehru and his pro Islam stand and post independence the mess that the nehru family has created / caused it is kind of becoming irreparable!

[Ranganayaki]

I don't know what they have lost by not being included.

The smarter question to ask is what you will lose by not including those you are happy to exclude, in any situation.

.

[shankarank]

I don't think anybody was happy to exclude anybody else. First off for people even within the mileu of the tradition ( during the so called exclusionary period) , there was not sufficient understanding. Who was the last great well known composer? Dr BMK? How many people knew Sri Ravikiran? What does it take to compose a new piece?

First you have to understand the spirit of the tradition, before you can compose on any new themes and include many more people - if you mean that's what excluded people. How in the world can you blame the Caste marks worn by musicians. I mean in India, is there that much hatred towards it? When did this start?

So first you cannot ascribe any responsibility about these exclusion. The best people outside the listener-ship of Carnatic music - who know it exists however , and this is irrespective of caste or background, could do was to make fun of it as "Aye Aye" or showing a tap and turn. Everybody in my class did that!

Have you ever lived outside the Ghetto of Carnatic music until you got out of your home?

[shankarank]

Anyways here it is a moving tribute:

https://srutimag.blogspot.in/2018/01/herambanathan.html

I , a person raised listening to CM , have passed through the Ghetto - 4 years in College and 1 year in employment , without knowing that devadasis were even part of the system , and that Sri T Upendran whom I accompanied transporting him back in a vehicle after a Mardi Gras competition ( he was a Judge!) to drop him at his home, was even part of this tradition.

And the Son of K.S Kalidas was my next room neighbor in the hostel and we have talked for hour and hours about music and musicians. I did not know Smt. MSS was from this tradition until I started living in the U.S - I was told after many years!.

There is only one thing that comes close - even if it was not a well kept Secret - that of FDR's disability

http://ideas.time.com/2013/07/12/the-my ... isability/

Imagine how much considerate the people were!

[Ranganayaki]

Anyways here it is a moving tribute:

https://srutimag.blogspot.in/2018/01/herambanathan.html

I , a person raised listening to CM , have passed through the Ghetto - 4 years in College and 1 year in employment , without knowing that devadasis were even part of the system , and that Sri T Upendran whom I accompanied transporting him back in a vehicle after a Mardi Gras competition ( he was a Judge!) to drop him at his home, was even part of this tradition.

And the Son of K.S Kalidas was my next room neighbor in the hostel and we have talked for hour and hours about music and musicians. I did not know Smt. MSS was from this tradition until I started living in the U.S - I was told after many years!.

Imagine how much considerate the people were!

Wow!! I'm so proud of you - really - for posting that - yeah - moving article. For even finding it!

I'm not sure what you mean by ghetto. I thought you meant Mylapore, but you speak in that context of your educational years and early employment. I knew only the bad things about devadasis that they were dedicated to temples and that they somehow became attached to men. I though abolishment was great, even for them, that they could no longer be exploited. I was barely aware that MSS came from there. I would keep forgetting and then I would occasionally remember! My eyes were opened to their importance through some other sympathetic discussion on rasikas just a few years ago.

To answer your question, I don't think I was ever in that ghetto you speak of. My childhood was spent in IIT Madras, till I was 25 or so. Is that ghetto? It was a nice inclusive place with people from all over the country and we didn't speak of the religion or the caste of other people. I had a very orthodox grandmother, though who was 75 going on 150 . She was 99 when she died but I don't think she had ever aged beyond 35 or 40 considering she was already 150 .

This article , that speech is how we should be speaking of devadasis today. With respect, and give them a platform like this to share in the bounty of cm and dance and the respect it accords to everyone in that field. But it bothers me to hear all our members I respect speak objectionably about devadasis. What they lost (your question) is a question that is impossible to answer: it is for them to tell us, we can only have some inkling of it at best. But I am surprised you would ask it after reading that moving article. May be you hadn't read it at the time..

We cannot speak of them as prostitutes and mistresses. I don't deny that some or even many of them were. But the essence of devadasis was dedication to the temple as artists who enhanced temple and social life. That they were exploited is a shame on the rest of society, not them. They were the victims.

But our culture, in addition to all its greatness, is a victimizing culture and we often have no sympathy or empathy for victims. We demand that everyone get on with it, and while it would be very nice and practical for everyone to do so, we have no understanding for those who may find it difficult to move on.

I understand that in the early days of MSS' transformation and even later, it would be very delicate to speak of her origins unless she spoke of it, not nice to bring it up unless you wanted to socially shame her, because our thoughts were not evolved enough. But in today's world, considering that we respect their innocence and their "majboori" - I am unable to come up fast enough with an apt word for it - it is high time we stopped making implicit excuses for men who exploit women and high time we stopped turning a blind eye to the abuse of power against women, sexual exploitation of women and its high time we stopped blaming all these victims.

[Ranganayaki]

And group thinking does not work. Each of us has to make that humane change in our hearts as individuals for ourselves and our growth as more decent human beings without lazily hiding behind brahminism and other group thinking.

[shankarank]

But our culture, in addition to all its greatness, is a victimizing culture and we often have no sympathy or empathy for victims.

Well when our culture was great actually when devadasis were integral part of it. Nithya sumangalis is how they were regarded. But where I differ is the cause of the stigma attached to them. When the rookie MA Secretary wrote about Dhannamal and Dharmapuri Subbarayar in the Hindu early 2000s, even the family was not happy about it. The stigma is not the creation of Indians ( if they were really Indians) when in fact Indians had them amidst them.

What we should be telling as well is - this is due to colonization. This is not externalizing the blame to the British. This is to blame Indians the right way , that they forgot what was their culture and they were colonized.

And what you have said about our culture ( if that is 50% of us when you grew up) , is not correct. In the face of what happened during Colonial period, even the Ghetto tried to accommodate them in so many forms and respect them, by not talking about them knowing how the entire Indian society had been transformed using Western thinking models.

So your assessment is not correct.

Now there is one more thing that is a red flag. This respect for dEvadasis is coming back riding on Marxism and the milder version of it - the liberalism and it's associated social theories , another import during Colonial era.

The street politicians who are up in arms against Vairamuttu's comments cannot be expected to nuance this to their audience. But then who created such platforms. It is the Left!! Even Indira Gandhi cannot be blamed.

Also the historical facts about Vairamuttu's comments is irrelevant to the whole discussion - even about his comments!

If there is any history that is relevant to this discussion, it is the history of Colonialism and that of the the post colonial Leftism that is relevant here.

If Brahmins of the Ghetto still had amidst them the members of the tradition and worked to protect their dignity, I don't want to now lose this legacy to the Left.


I would rather have, Brahminism , Carnatic music, and any dEvadasi legacy left, die its death, if Left is going to take over this discussion under their aegis!

[shankarank]

It was a nice inclusive place with people from all over the country!!

Just having a mix of people for the sake of getting a prestigious degree in a campus does not make it inclusive. I have bellowed out music from K. J Jesudas cassettes - songs like Ksheera Sagara all across the hostel! I have a very loud voice. And that is not even the "Aye Aye version". Still there was not a single curious person from a diverse set of backgrounds who would stop by to ask what I was singing and what is this music.

I have done it for 4 years!

Music Club was there - but it was a Ghetto!

Of course I had some CM ghetto members during ragging, telling me that what KJY sang was not Authentic music and I should listen to X, Y or Z.

Now coming back to my hostel mates, from across many states in the country - Yeah we are all supposedly all belong to single humanity!! Nice and lovely. But the question is - were they same as me or were I same as them?!

There was this N. Ramani's student also who would play flute - nobody would ask him what is the music and find out more about it. Or get curious.

There was no diversity among them. I was not hearing Odiya music or Odiya culture talk from the Orissa guy or about HM from the UP Guy , or about kshetrayya from the Andhra guy. - mind you these were very privileged upper whatever you call them. In fact if you want to call anybody Upper Caste in the whole of India, it is these guys who had no trace of any of their culture left, their state or pan India, except some innate behaviour because their Parents were still having some Indianness left in them!

The guy from UP - last name Mishra - simply told me there is absolutely no following for HM , not even adding that "he knew of", but very categorical. He said there is no following for classical music!!

So nothing diverse was getting included there.


I had to discover kshetrayya from kriti mani mAlai after looking into Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar's book in a Grundig tape collector's house, he some 33 years senior to me.

and we didn't speak of the religion or the caste of other people.

I wish people had talked about religion and their Caste traditions. I don't know what is so wrong!!!

So I guess if you were in there, you were living in a Professorial Ghetto - oh no - diverse place - where there must have been no diversity!!

You should watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yz6ZL-TC94

[RSR]

shankarank » 14 Jan 2018, 05:29
RSR it is because of progressive intellectuals world over , why I have to say such irreverent things about great people. I have no other way of making my point....But I find it amusing that Marxist scholars have sold the idea of non violence to a generation of Indians, when that entire body of thought has seen significant violence!

---------
@60-> Tolstoy was a Christian Anarchist. Gandhiji was very much attracted to Tolstoy. and even had corresponsence with him, while in South Africa. ( Tolstoy was ex-communicated by the Official Church). Tolstoy was a critic of the prevailing conditions in the then Czarist Russia. but being an aristorat with vast wealth, could think of no overall solution except Philanthrophy and Trusteeship. But, that he did not give a feasible solution does not take away his contribution as a critic. Tolstoy, anusingly , could not take his passivism to the next level of Passive Revolution as Gandhiji did and frankly admitted that he was unable to understand Gandhi. ...Gandhiji in the foot steps of Jesus was a social rebel. .. Now, coming to Lenin's tribute to Tolstoy.
------------------------------
"Tolstoy not only produced artistic works which will always be appreciated and read by the masses, once they have created human conditions of life for themselves after over throwing the yoke of the landlords and capitalists; he succeeded in conveying with remarkable force the moods of the large masses that are oppressed by the present system, in depicting their condition and expressing their spontaneous feelings of protest and anger. Belonging, as he did, primarily to the era of 1861–1904, Tolstoy in his works—both as an artist and as a thinker and preacher—embodied in amazingly bold relief the specific historical features of the entire first Russian revolution, its strength and its weakness
'Tolstoy’s works express both the strength and the weakness, the might and the limitations, precisely of the peasant mass movement. His heated, passionate, and often ruthlessly sharp protest against the state and the official church that was in alliance with the police conveys the sentiments of the primitive peasant democratic masses, among whom centuries of serfdom, of official tyranny and robbery, and of church Jesuitism, deception and chicanery had piled up mountains of anger and hatred. His unbending opposition to private property in land conveys the psychology of the peasant masses during that historical period in which the old, medieval landownership, both in the form of landed estates and in the form of state “allotments”, definitely became an intolerable obstacle to the further development of the country, and when this old landownership was inevitably bound to be destroyed most summarily and ruthlessly. His unremitting accusations against capitalism—accusations permeated with most profound emotion and most ardent indignation—convey all the horror felt by the patriarchal peasant at the advent of the new, invisible, incomprehensible enemy coming from somewhere in the cities, or from somewhere abroad, destroying all the “pillars” of rural life, bringing in its train unprecedented ruin, poverty, starvation,, savagery, prostitution, syphilis—all the calamities attending the, “epoch of primitive accumulation”, aggravated a hundredfold by the transplantation into Russian soil of the most modern methods of plunder elaborated by the all powerful Monsieur Coupon
Tolstoy is dead, and the pre-revolutionary Russia whose weakness and impotence found their expression in the philosophy and are depicted in the works of the great artist, has become a thing of the past. But the heritage which he has left includes that which has not become a thing of the past, but belongs to the future. This heritage is accepted and is being worked upon by the Russian proletariat. The Russian proletariat will explain to the masses of the toilers and the exploited the meaning of Tolstoy’s criticism of the state, the church, private property in land—not in order that the masses should confine themselves to self-perfection and yearning for a godly life, but in order that they should rise to strike a new blow at the tsarist monarchy and landlordism, which were but slightly damaged in 1905, and which must be destroyed. The Russian proletariat will explain to the masses Tolstoy’s criticism of capitalism—not in order that the masses should confine themselves to hurling imprecations at capital and the rule of money, but in order that they should learn to utilise at every step in their life and in their struggle the technical and social achievements of capitalism, that they should learn to weld themselves into a united army of millions of socialist fighters who will over throw capitalism and create a new society in which the, people will not be doomed to poverty, in which there will be no exploitation of man by man."
--------------------
That is for your amazement at Marxists praising Gandhiji. Consider Gandhiji as a tactician for building a massive anti-imperialist mass movement from cape comorin to Peshawar, ( a fact conceded by finest revolutionaries of Hindusthan Socialist Republican Association HSRA ( BCVOHRA, BISMIL, CHANDRASEKAR AZAD, AZAFULLA KHAN,(
http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.in/2013/03/ ... onary.html
An excerpt from that noble manifesto "" it has become a fashion these days to indulge in wild and meaningless talk of non-violence.
Mahatma Gandhi is great and we mean no disrespect to him if we express our emphatic disapproval of the methods advocated by him for our country's emancipation.
We would be ungrateful to him if we do not salute him for the immense awakening that has been brought about be his non-cooperation movement in the country.
But to us the Mahatma is an impossible visionary.
Non-violence may be a noble ideal, but is a thing of the morrow.
We can, situated as we are, never hope to win our freedom by mere nonviolence.

The world is armed to the very teeth. And the world is too much with us.
All talk of peace may be sincere, but such false ideology.

[Ranganayaki]

Sankarank, what I said about our culture is not about anything historical. It is about how we are today. We have no compassion for victims.

I really don't understand what you are ranting and raving about other people in your hostel for. Did you really expect people to ask what you were singing? And were you any less confrontational as a student?

Culture is hardly all about music, dance, arts. All that is secondary. Culture is mainly about how we treat others.

I had a nice life with my community growing up and you don't know anything about it.

About speaking of caste and religion, you are wrong. We were children, and it is important to inculcate a sense of unity and oneness first before drawing attention to differences. You don't sound very satisfied with anything, always ranting and raving about differences, divisive ideologies!! And "Professorial ghetto!!!" Yes, Sankarank, I lived in a ghetto of good things, to put it in terms you like. I really hope that satisfies you .

[kvjayan]

"Meanwhile, Mr. Vairamuthu clarified that he had used the word devadasi (Servant of God) in the same positive connotation as the original authors Professors MGS Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat did in the article ‘Bhakti Movement in South India’."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 438395.ece

It is not clear if these Profs. are from "Indiana University" (as quoted earlier by the poet) or the "American Scholar" (as quoted by scroll.in). Perhaps the poet was misled by some left-liberal intellectuals or he thought that he can get away by tossing out some yankee connection, by way of authoritative reference.