Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rshankar »

Ranganayaki wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 00:08 I don't know this Gnani either, have never heard of him. He mentions the eroticism of the Naachiyar Tirumozhi and says that since Andal is supposed to have only lived to the age of 14 or so, he cannot imagine that a child of such a tender age could possibly have written such erotica. So he says that either she was, as Rajaji says, a character created by Periazhvar and the works attributed to Andal were actually the works of Periazhvar, or Andal was probably older, about 20-25 years old. That is all he says about it.

He does not say that she must have been a devadasi for that age-related reason.
At the outset, I have absolutely no personal interest in this so called 'controversy'....I don't give a rat's ass. But from a purely academic point of view, this age-related rationale is a very interesting argument. Expanding it, since kRshNa was only 11 when he left vRndAvan for mathurA, and all of the rAs-related antics with the gOpis occurred in vRndAvan before he would have entered puberty, were they because he had some "professional grounding" in the erotic arts as well (a gigolo, perhaps)???

PS: A lot of the controversies being debated currently bring to mind jobless barbers and poor cats....

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

The beauty of the Krishna stories is that the rAs related antics were in the minds of the gopis - not in Krishna's. Kind of like the MGR movie duets.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Is it to say that rasakrida was hallucination? There is no hint of it in Bhagavatham.
It may be too simplistic to say that the idea of eroticism was unilateral.
The whole theme is, in my view, an allegory of the bondage human souls felt to something mysterious. Eroticism has been there even in Upanishads, rather to describe this affinity. It may be too unkind to dub the love of gopis as despised love. Krishna creates or contrives every situation for gopis to be infatuated with him, ironically as it were, and praises their love. A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

kvchellappa wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 03:50
It may be too simplistic to say that the idea of eroticism was unilateral.

The whole theme is, in my view, an allegory of the bondage human souls felt to something mysterious.

It may be too unkind to dub the love of gopis as despised love.

Krishna creates or contrives every situation for gopis to be infatuated with him, ironically as it were, and praises their love. A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.
KVC, Sureshvv did not say unilateral, he said the Lila is played in the minds of the gopikas, not in Krishna's mind. Asyou say it is an allegory for the yearning of the jeevatma for the Paramatma. And you probably mean bond and not bondage. Krishna has no use for the rAs in his mind, spiritually speaking, considering that he is considered god-realized or god itself. When we consider that Krishna creates these situations in the mind of the gopikas, it doesn't mean the eroticism is not unilateral. It is, to put it - yes - simplistically, but from a different angle. It is viewed as his grace in the spiritual yearning of the devotee. The gopika represents the yearning jeevatma, transcending male-female differences. It is a spiritual longing, spiritual dance, spiritual union.

Saying that this leela is in the mind of the devotee is not at all tantamount to saying it is despised love. Krishna does not spurn. He graces everyone with their sense of his belonging specially to them. This devotional position of yearning for the lord and pining for him because of the sense of separation from him is considered a high spiritual state, and I learned that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa lamented that such few people in this present world would cry, and shed tears because of this longing for god and this sense of separation from him. So when we - you or I in this world of today's - actually experience that longing, it is so mind-blowing that we experience it as a special grace we've received, that only the lord could have planted it in us.
rshankar wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 00:30 At the outset, I have absolutely no personal interest in this so called 'controversy'....I don't give a rat's ass. But

... were they because he had some "professional grounding" in the erotic arts as well (a gigolo, perhaps)???

PS: A lot of the controversies being debated currently bring to mind jobless barbers and poor cats....


Ravi, the above is my response to your question too. Yes I agree with you, anyone who posts anything at all on Rasikas or any such forum does consider that they have nothing better to do at that point!!! 😁

Thanks to Suresh for that helpful response.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 17 Jan 2018, 05:40, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks to all of you three just above, I feel so joyful to have gone into it and to have written that!!

rajeshnat
Posts: 9907
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rajeshnat »

Sri velukudi krishnan , a learned scholar with his measured response can be a better antidote to gnani.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_ntWpBlFA

ramamatya
Posts: 150
Joined: 16 Dec 2015, 11:04

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ramamatya »

This whole premise of Vairamuthu or the American scholar or any other scholar for that matter defies basic common sense. Can they answer to this question: Which devadasi ever lived with her father? Even if she were adopted, there was a father. Will he allow his daughter to be so?

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

Sir.. You are going by the 21st century definition of the term Devadasi. In previous centuries, it meant something else.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!

ramamatya
Posts: 150
Joined: 16 Dec 2015, 11:04

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ramamatya »

sureshvv wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 09:44 Sir.. You are going by the 21st century definition of the term Devadasi. In previous centuries, it meant something else.
OK, I stand corrected.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 03:50 Is it to say that rasakrida was hallucination? There is no hint of it in Bhagavatham.
<snip>
A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.
Looks like you have not reached the "maya" page yet. Must be in there somewhere. Keep reading :)

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 10:06 No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!
Always blaming somebody else for all your problems!

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

We are all supposed to be dEva dASAs or dAsis, serving Him. At least, shouldn't we strive to be, for God's sake, or for our own sake?

kvjayan
Posts: 62
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 17:08

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

Gnani Sanakran (in the above video link, passed away a few days ago) was perhaps a trend setter of sorts, for the latter day Tambram rebels and upstarts. When MS Subbulakshmi passed away it seems he wrote an obituary (in the Tamizh web magazine "Thinnai") discussing only about her 'brahminisation'. The readers' reaction was such that he declared he would not write any more for "Thinnai".

https://www.facebook.com/jataayu.blore/ ... 9051800961

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

'Gnani' Sankaran is no more...

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 11:15
shankarank wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 10:06 No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!
Always blaming somebody else for all your problems!
Hey, the country was not run by us or the way "we us" would have liked to be run!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

rajeshnat wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 07:02 Sri velukudi krishnan , a learned scholar with his measured response can be a better antidote to gnani.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_ntWpBlFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EkQa5PE1Qk

His speech in World Classical Tamizh Conference - Coimbatore. Apparently in some session, he brought a rare word used by Andal for the dust that emanates when a cow gets up , when sand gets pushed by it's breasts. Kalaignar was in awe of his depth in that regard. I don't recall what the word was.

I was overwhelmed by his discourse on Bhakti in Dallas - UTD.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »


arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

நேய நிலைக் கதவம் நீக்கேலோரெம்பாவாய்!
Open wide the doors of goodwill and amity! sang ANDAL...
Critics of the article/speech, please give it a thought...:)

Haste in judgement in an emotional state may be followed by regret--as so well portrayed in the tale of the mother killing the pet mangoose who actually protected the child from a snake attacking it--just because she saw him blood-smeared as she walked into the house, thinking that the mangoose had mauled her child :(

A simple syllogism to make a case out of it for some:
All non-believers are awful
Vairamuthu is one
So, Vairamuthu is also awful

Do they forget that in all their haranguing, they giving scant thought to that Srivilliputhur-born kOdai? :)

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

There is no defence. He owes a straight and unconditional apology.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

Oh Please! Stop being a Hindutva stooge. He loves Andal much more than any of you.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Word allergy.

Antihistamines will not help. Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Pl be temperate in language. The decent thing to do is to apologise when an overwhelming number of people have been hurt and the stance of the man is too well known. His love of Andal does not matter a bit. I am with Rajaji on Andal. The hurt is widespread and there is no point in explaining it. I am proud to be a Hindu and am not in the least apologetic about it. As a Hindu, I can respect an atheist, but the atheist has no right to offend believers.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

He has already apologized. The decent thing to do is accept it. Not get swept up in some "righteous holier-than-thou" indignation.

Atheist was speaking his mind. "Believers" are milking the issue at this point.

By the way "I am with Rajaji" is neither here nor there.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Suresh, lets set aside belief , emotions and sentiments. Can we critique him on his own frameworks? Being an intellectual who is discerning, should he not check out and study the scholars themselves , what is their institutional motives, what do their institutions do, how and why are they funded, what ideological, civilizational biases do they carry? - and so on.

How can he simply believe, whatever peer reviewed by a cabal of scholars, could be correct? So who is afflicted by belief?

I think he does not owe an apology. Instead he should do his own homework and do a critical study of others, just like he has done against Brahmin high-handedness and write his thoughts!

And contrary to claims made by others who post here, you also cannot take at face value, words like Atheist, belief etc!
Last edited by shankarank on 21 Jan 2018, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rshankar »

Nick H wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 16:25Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.
Smelling salts OR a few tight slaps?

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 21:02 Being an intellectual who is discerning, should he not check out and study the scholars themselves , what is their institutional motives, what do their institutions do, how and why are they funded, what ideological, civilizational biases do they carry? - and so on.

How can he simply believe, whatever peer reviewed by a cabal of scholars, could be correct? So who is afflicted by belief?
I am entirely okay with criticizing him for sloppy research or for using invalid and biased references.
I am not okay with allegations that he denigrated or impugned Andal.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Tamilnad is a place where chappals were thrown at the portrait of Lord Rama .! as if Kamba Ramayanam is not the crown jewel of Thamizh! and the then Police minister Sri.Kakkan had the perpetrators arrested. . The issue here is not about the delicious poetry of Kathai AndaaL. but about her divinity ,totally unrelated to the language and literary issues. . Vairamuthu is always talking about the contribution of Kothai to thamizh language. but ridicules her divinity. and the glorious tradition, for centuries.( 600 AD to the present day.. 1400 years! is it not amazing? Even today, we have nuns in christian religion. and held in very high esteem , rightly so. In my earlier post, I had mentioned Kavunthi AdikaL of Silappathikaaram. In Madurai , there are quite a few Jain lady monks. It is a noble tradition, the world over. In fact, the Catholic Church is very close to Vaishnava Sampradhayam and Siavite Agama rituals. True! rituals alone are not religion but they add great beauty to worship. Rationalists may poke fun at Venkatesa Suprabatham. 'but do they understand the meaning? 'thrai lokyam mangalaM kuru''. Similarly, Kothai prays ' theengindri Naadellaam thingal mummaari peythu. ' .'vaangak kudam niraikkum vaLLal perum pasukkaL', neengaatha selvam.. Dr.APJ Kalaam is all amazement and worshipful respect to Kothai's poetry and spirit, For , he was no pseudo theist. Though Kothai is supposed to be a brahmin girl, her entire thiruppaavai is about the yadhava families. That is thamizh tradition and historical reality of mullai nilam. from sangam period itself. How can anybody in his senses vulgarize such a noble soul? ..is it not a fact that vairamuthu spoke ill of our religious belief of Kothai's soul merging with that of the Lord? He is now trying to gloss over it. It is said that Smt.M.K.Stalin (Durga) herself is a devotee of AndaaL. God bless her. That is fine. DMK credo is not atheism . It is just against religious hatred and bigotry. There is no political party except the lunatic fringe of political philistines ( all pseudo-marxists, unlike the olden days) which is against any religion. Think out of the vote-bank box and condemn this crude affront if you are a real progressive and cultured person. No excuse. If Vairamuthu really realizes his crude, rude and inexcusable vulgarity of his 'learned and scholarly' remark , he should not have any hesitation to prostrate at the feet of our Holy Mother and seek her pardon . She is Lakshmi . embodiment of Dhayaa.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 22:37 Similarly, Kothai prays ' theengindri Naadellaam thingal mummaari peythu. '
Vairamuthu quotes exact same line to extol Andal and her concern for the society at large. He calls her his second mother, the one who tutored him.

If you have so much intolerance and hatred for a non-believer simply for that, I am afraid your religion is doing you no good.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

rshankar wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 21:15
Nick H wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 16:25Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.
Smelling salts OR a few tight slaps?
You're the medical man! Leave it to you...

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

#129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?".. how would he take it if called 'dava-adiyaL mavan? . I have no issues with 'modern-jackasses', secularist,'progressive gang'. so long as they confine themselves to their gutter-hippie ganja dens.Leave sacred things alone. which they cannot understand...a crowd which wallows in fleshy thoughts alone. Who cares if he is a tamil-poet of some value? useless 'thaNNeer dhesam'. dirty rags.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

a crowd which wallows in fleshy thoughts alone
Where's shankarank when we need him? To point out that fleshy thoughts were just fine until the colonialists arrived and said they weren't. And the left. And no, I'm not joking, the left can be a very prudish lot!

:lol: :twisted: :twisted: :lol:

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

NickH - at this instance an elderly person is putting out his tApam - and I respect him!!! But I also understand Vairamuttu's due diligence of studying various scholars, until he went into quoting from sociological approaches - which have not benefited anyone!

Concepts like Patriarchal class, Land owning class, population that was religious - etc. are thrown about Andal's period!!

Here is the position of the most liberal of all societies - today!!:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/j ... are_btn_tw

As regards history of colonialism:

The exact quote by Jomo Kenyatta on the arrival of Christianity in Kenya:
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

So that is land ownership, patriarchy, and religion all rolled into one!

When theories get exported, without the "practical" - I mean it in a simpleton way - like our friend bombal in brief history of time , where I theorized about Mridangam ( with actually a lived experience of all of golden era of Carnatic music ) , shouldn't Vairamuttu , the thinker of all thinkers - or just like how we say musician's musician - we can say thinker's thinker - should he not be expected to think about all this??!!

Hum..?

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

I'm sorry if it hurts RSR's feelings... But the view that he expressed seems to owe more to imported British "morality," which was always hypocritical anyway, than to anything else. I suspect that you'd readily agree that steeling the land was possibly the lesser harm that the missionaries did to the cultures they invaded.

But my views on this are fairly well known, and perhaps a little extreme too. And I don't want the christian
mob at my door!

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 05:53
When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.
Ouch.

http://kentakepage.com/ten-powerful-quo ... -kenyatta/ the above one figures there with the other 9.

There is an African proverb flash in that page - "Until lions have their own historian, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunters" - very relevant for the history (whether it is THE history or so-called history)

kvjayan
Posts: 62
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 17:08

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

"Vairamuthu, American Universities and Tamizh"

A somewhat strong article (in Tamizh) on the "research aspects" of the poet's writings on the subject:

http://www.tamilhindu.com/2018/01/%E0%A ... %E0%AE%AA/

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 12:38 I'm sorry if it hurts RSR's feelings... But the view that he expressed seems to owe more to imported British "morality," which was always hypocritical anyway, than to anything else. I suspect that you'd readily agree that steeling the land was possibly the lesser harm that the missionaries did to the cultures they invaded.

But my views on this are fairly well known, and perhaps a little extreme too. And I don't want the christian
mob at my door!
May be. The moral judgments on the other (colonized) are used to create atrocity literature ( in the true tradition of their religious construction! - how they built it by doing it on Jews) so that the native population is discredited enough to be pliable to be ruled over!

That the native population became more "moral" is purely darwinian - given that they were then ruled by somebody new! There are no universal "moral" improvements that can be claimed. The "old" was good for them and the "new" possibly allowed them to survive the "new" conditions.

So we don't need to bring in hypocrisy to argue this one! Lets give the benefit of the doubt that the people who came in actually adhered to what they preached! That the land is theirs after the cross is planted is established doctrinally in Christianity. So the issue is with how the preaching itself came about.

The natives anyway paid for the supposed "benefit" - so we don't need to give any civilizing credits - as the colonizer learnt a lot as well!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

And here is an effective debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYteFtrUz1I

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Before you read me as anti-christian, I let it be known that the reason I think, I am in America is because of decline of Protestant values and work ethic in America, as much as Corporations' zeal to reduce costs. Lot of Indians credit Pres. Kennedy , the immoral Catholic that relaxed immigration rules and think that liberalism protects them! Well liberalism created conditions for them to come in here, in it's own worse ways!

And hypocrisy is an argument that instead should be directed against them, as they are the first to question everything past!

kvjayan
Posts: 62
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 17:08

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 18:44 And here is an effective debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYteFtrUz1I
In this debate, a dravidian representative propounded a conspiracy theory that for daring to write erotic verses Andal was taken all the way from Srivilliputhur to Srirangam to be killed there and this needs research! Much of this so-called dravidian discourse is agenda driven. A recent "rationalist" conference (at Tiruchirapally) was inaugurated by a pro-DMK Christian pastor. In these events usually Hindu beliefs and customs are questioned and ridiculed.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@135-> Nick-> 1) Eroticism and considering it as an animal level instinct, is not due to any Christian influence. It is the main tenet in Jainism, Buddhism and even Manusmurthi. 'kaamam ,krodham, lobam ,moham -thykthva ' says Adi Sankara's Bajagovindham. 600 AD As you may know, orthodox brahminism speaks of varNa -aasrama dharmam. Chathurvarnam maya srustitham, guna thraya vibahath'. Sages and seers are brahmins. Warriors to defend people against internal and external enemies are kshathriyas. People engaged in economic life of production and distribution are vaisyas. People who offer labour are the fourth and there is no fifth. Lokamanya Thilak, categorically spoke in a public meeting at Kasi, ( as quoted by Barathy), that these varnams are not by birth but by the nature of service to society that is given according to one's ability. .As for the 4 ashrams, first we have life as a learner, then as a gruhastha, then vanaprastham retreat into forest seeking solitude ) and finally sanyasam. Gruhastha life is meant for feeding the students and adhithis. Carnal union is meant only for getting progeny. Manu says that only the first born is duty-based. and after that, it is carnal. KUraL says that gruhastha is the sustaining basis for the other three. It is not an accident that great saints and mystics in our recent history, shun carnal life. ( Ramana Maharishi, Shirdi Saibaba, Kanch MahA periyaval, Narayana guru, Ramakrushna Paramahamsa, ) Subramanya Siva rejected family life though married. ' ..............., maa ga moha aavesam, aethath mamsava saadhu vihaaram' says bajagovindham. .. I think, music is meant to be heard and not seen!. Hence, my plea not to bring in any videos for CM. If at all, it may be just one image . as tube does not accept audio alone without some image.
https://youtu.be/O2Trm7q-fdE
==============================
'left' in political science refers to the doctrine that extols communal ownership of means of production and economic equality . It places economic equality above social and political equality because, without attaining economic equality, the other two are not really realized. Communal ownership is not at all alien to Indian Ethos. Infact it is the norm of 'Asiatic mode of production'. . I am afraid that you are confusing 'Left' with ' common ownership of women as well, which Barathy condemns as animal 'love'. It is high time, that we avoid mixing up kaamam and premam.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers. How many of us have read Dhammapadha? (RhysDavis). How is it that so many 'thanthric' practices entered into it later ? Some scholars hold that all those explicitly erotic sculptures in our temples are because of such degenerated Buddhism. Compare that with the paintings and architecture of the Church. and even better , no paintings at all of the Islam. Did vedic recitation have erotic passages? . None to the extent known to me. . All institutions get corrupted in course of time. There is Christian work ethics. no such thing as protestant work ethics. Henry VIII rebelled against the Pope not for any theological reason. and created the Anglican Church.( national). but the label only was changed. It was in the reign of King James that Scotland and England were united again, and he was a Catholic. The Authorized version of the Bible was created during that time. The Puritanical revolution followed but left many sincere christians dis-satisfied. ( among them the Quakers). Atrocities were committed against Quakers as well. Then came a period of vulgarity and permissiveness. and some corrective measures. The reformers were all Whigs. In India, in the East India Company century ( 1757-1857),
the preachers were mostly zealous puritans and did rouse the dormant soul of justice in the minds of scholars in Bengal. After 1857, ( direct rule by Britain, the Calcutta, Bombay and Madras universities were established. and its early products like Justice Ranade, Tilak, and in Madras, G.Subramanya Iyer of Swadesamithran and Judge Mani Iyer, did great work of reform of a moribund society. Instead of ritualistic teaching in sanskrit and in madrasas, we got science , technology and modern economics. Of course, we did have a great tradition but it had been lost for many centuries. And in the final analysis, India did benefit . It is not true that Christianity entered through Imperialists. It came to the central Kerala as early as the first century AD through St.Thomas. and Syrian Catholics in Kerala are very much proud of their Indian Nationality. Many of them are great scholars in Sanskrit. . Both Catholic and Protestant missions did great work in bringing higher and modern education to the underprivileged of our society. Mission hospitals were established and made medical facility available to the poor. We had great champions of India's national cause in people like CFAndrews, Sister Niveditha, . It is true that many missionary activities are working as paid agents of Imperialism but let us not tar all of them by the same brush. Principles, Practice, Personalities, and finally pernicious pettiness ... seem to be the law of nature. Re assertion occurs every now and then in periods of great social turmoil.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

Gandhiji's introduction to the booklet ' Practice and Precepts of Jesus' by J.C.Kumarappa published by Navjivan in 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A WORD
Having carefully gone through these chapters, I can recommend their perusal to every believer in God, be he a Christian or a follower of any other religion. The booklet presents Professor J. C. Kumarappa's views on Christian teaching in
a nutshell. It is a revolutionary view of Jesus as a man of God. It is none the less revealing and interesting. The interpretation of the Lord's Prayer is novel and refreshing as are many other interpretations.
If all believe as Prof. Kumarappa does, there will be no religious feuds and rivalries between sects and sects and different religions. Anyway, this reading of the Bible must bring solace to the Christians of India. If they will read the
Bible as Prof. Kumarappa does, they need not be apologetic of their forefathers or their ancient faith. What is bad and superstitious in the old they are able to throw off by means of the liberal teaching presented in the following pages but
it helps one to see that there is much of the old which is imperishable and worthy of being treasured.
Indeed, Prof. Kumarappa has a message beyond the confines of India. He speaks with confidence born of a living faith in the belief that the West, though nominally Christian, has not known the true Jesus of the Gospels.

As I was going through these pages, I was reminded of the late Advocate F. A. Laughton of Durban. I was then no student of Roman Dutch Law nor of the case law of the four States of South Africa. In difficulty, therefore, I used to go to Mr
Laughton for help. But, after I had done with my work he would proudly bring forth from his drawer a green cover book with his father's annotations from the Bible. It was Edwin Arnold's] Song Celestial, and had Mr Laughton's father's parallel passages from the Bible showing that there was much in common between the New Testament and the Gita. I was then a novice trying to find out Truth in all its aspects without then knowing that I was so doing. Prof. Kumarappa's interpretation with copious quotations from the Bible reminded me of what I used to believe even as early as 1894-95. I can, therefore, speak from experience of the truth of the interpretation of the Gospels, given in the following pages by Prof. Kumarappa.
Sevagram,
M. K. Gandhi
21-3-'45

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 22:37 Tamilnad is a place where chappals were thrown at the portrait of Lord Rama .!
Not justifying it or anything but could be considered blowback for burning Ravana effigies every year at multiple places all over the country. Just this year a tribe in Madhya Pradesh approached their high court to ban these burning festivities as they considered Ravana their deity.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 00:32 #129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?"
He never said the last 2 things. May be you are just listening to the Hindutva squad rather than to him.
The rest of your post puts you in pretty horrible light. I would take Vairamuthu's words any day over these.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

@#144 -> It is amazing how a stream of thought now posited as universal truth ( one version or supposedly the best one) is received so differently and has had different effects and outcomes in different lands and peoples. People somehow read into it what they want to read into it and kept their diversity in spite of all attempts to homogenize! Some people are able to claim that others have not understood it as well! Fascinating! :D

It's almost like it is waiting for the next vyAsa to do a vyakhyAna!

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 22:52 Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers.
Why are you not able to view Atheism as just another religion?

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 09:25
RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 00:32 #129-> 'Ah!.She was my mother!.. also a street-siren!...jex-worker?"
He never said the last 2 things. May be you are just listening to the Hindutva squad rather than to him.
The rest of your post puts you in pretty horrible light. I would take Vairamuthu's words any day over these.
This article asks good questions - why we don't narrate their good deeds!

https://www.vikatan.com/news/tamilnadu/ ... -much.html

Well those who raised opposition to the bill said it is a divine matter - true. But then the Bill set rest to that! Now those who try to use the word in praiseworthy fashion actually are trying to remove divinity from even divine entities!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 10:20
RSR wrote: 22 Jan 2018, 22:52 Let us not judge a religion by the level of its followers.
Why are you not able to view Atheism as just another religion?
It should be easily! After all its religions that fight over Gods!!! :lol:

In the purANas - the gods themselves sometimes fight each other - giving us a nice story to listen to and be fascinated!!
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Jan 2018, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply