Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 11:35 Culture is hardly all about music, dance, arts. All that is secondary. Culture is mainly about how we treat others.
I had no problems in that respect. The most elite of the people, who I never talked to - they were my classmates - helped me when I ran out of Petrol in my moped, inside the Campus somewhat in a remote place. There were generally no such issues of humanity etc.

So even during our times, in general there was no dearth of basic humanity - who would deny that?

But aren't we talking about culture in the context of music and arts? What aspect of victimization are you suddenly bringing into that mileu?

If there are many forumites that you see that are still uncomfortable about the highlighting of dEvadAsi tradition, you will have to identify the problem correctly.

Read every one of their posts - all the way from inception of this forum. They are are all well read in English and colonized!! There is nothing else. This is not about lack of general culture ( about treating others nicely) and humanity.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 11:35 Culture is hardly all about music, dance, arts. All that is secondary. Culture is mainly about how we treat others.
Yes it is not anything about music, dance , arts! - actually well, interesting how you separated them out! How about the Orissa guy talking about the Jagannath temple and it's traditions, it's architecture. He does not need to believe in God for that does he? - is it about Faith?

How about anybody talking about the Colonial history? Lets not even go into Islamic history and invasions for that matter!

Was there any sense of history? And this is not about patriotism - lets leave out even India as the current country , political entity whatever!

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

kvjayan wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 11:47 "Meanwhile, Mr. Vairamuthu clarified that he had used the word devadasi (Servant of God) in the same positive connotation as the original authors Professors MGS Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat did in the article ‘Bhakti Movement in South India’."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 438395.ece

It is not clear if these Profs. are from "Indiana University" (as quoted earlier by the poet) or the "American Scholar" (as quoted by scroll.in). Perhaps the poet was misled by some left-liberal intellectuals or he thought that he can get away by tossing out some yankee connection, by way of authoritative reference.
Here is the nice, hard hitting expose (in a scholarly academic style) of the whole dubious exercise:

https://youtu.be/I5jEWY_fACw

Interview with Prof. MGS Narayanan (denying specific devadasi reference to Andal);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASUAnIN ... e=youtu.be

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 14 Jan 2018, 08:45 When did the momentous change in the connotation of devadasi (devar adiyal in tamizh) take place?
It was not a moment in time. The connotation varies by space (circles where the word is used).
It is far from the case that the unparalleled Tamizh poet who can adjudicate on the poetry of Azhwars has used the expression to admire Andal for her independence, Tamizh patru and feminism (whatever it means).
Actually that seems exactly the case. See post #75.

And Feminism means women are to be accorded all the same benefits and responsibilities that are given to men. As a corollary, any restriction/limitation put on women should also be extended to men equally.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 14 Jan 2018, 00:16 Organize your thoughts and present a unified point of view. in straight and simple language. It is a question of style. Read good authors like Russell. both for ideas and language.
So now I need to read Russell to know how to think and write, after listening to William Jones on how I ought to be ruled and Rt. Honorable VS Sastry to know how English ought to be spoken :evil: :lol: !

I'd rather stay semi-literate after Reading Chomsky - by the way an interviewer tried flattering him in his office at old age, that he sort of looked like Russell whose photograph hung above him!
An excerpt from that noble manifesto
I know the manifestos are more honest. But the teaching of sociology in schools seldom discusses those things. The Marxist scholars of JNU variety preached Non Violence to all Hindus, and even told them that is the pluralistic culture of India! So Marxism is not just the honest variety practiced today in North Korea or [Ahem!] China ;) !

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

kvjayan wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 13:21 [quote=kvjayan post_id=329193 time=<a href="tel:1515997060">1515997060</a> user_id=16510]
"Meanwhile, Mr. Vairamuthu clarified that he had used the word devadasi (Servant of God) in the same positive connotation as the original authors Professors MGS Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat did in the article ‘Bhakti Movement in South India’."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 438395.ece

It is not clear if these Profs. are from "Indiana University" (as quoted earlier by the poet) or the "American Scholar" (as quoted by scroll.in). Perhaps the poet was misled by some left-liberal intellectuals or he thought that he can get away by tossing out some yankee connection, by way of authoritative reference.
Here is the nice, hard hitting expose (in a scholarly academic style) of the whole dubious exercise:

https://youtu.be/I5jEWY_fACw

Interview with Prof. MGS Narayanan (denying specific devadasi reference to Andal);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASUAnIN ... e=youtu.be
[/quote]

Really good of kvjayan to post this. Thank you!

Watching it I felt thankful to the speaker for taking the trouble to follow the citations and bring them to us. But I did notice that he does not go over the part of the study that precedes the specific quote about Andal and I think he says that he was jumping ahead to the relevant section, which seemed reasonable. And it did seem shocking that the reference to the 1923 article by a Govinda Rao did not contain any reference to the notion of Andal being a devadasi. But it seemed a little easy and a quick jump to conclude that the authors thought they might get away with citing a study as old as 1923. I did not really think it was impossible, but you have to ignore the fact that other knowledgeable academics do know how to access old literature, plus you have to be quite the scoundrel to publish fake sources.

That was also possible, I thought, till I heard the aged gentleman, the author's interview. He stood by his work, spoke very reasonably, sounded dignified, measured, not like a scoundrel at all. And he stressed that it was a possible interpretation of the life of Andal based on the known facts.

But it was when the presenter says to us that it was not research, but
shakkadai
that he gave a clear indication of being offended at the level of religiosity. Shakkadai is a word that makes no sense in a careful academic critique, but complete sense when it is a response to your religious sentiment being violated. So I doubt that this exposé is the whole truth. That, along with the apparent decency of the person interviewed, in conjunction with this:
"Meanwhile, Mr. Vairamuthu clarified that he had used the word devadasi (Servant of God) in the same positive connotation as the original authors Professors MGS Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat did in the article ‘Bhakti Movement in South India’."
make me certain that there is more to this story.

Now you wonder what that positive connotation was. What was said before that offending sentence along with that dubious-seeming reference number 36? The part which the speaker reasonably skipped to stay relevant to the controversy suddenly becomes important and germane to the "discussion" if this mess can be called one. It becomes significant that the interviewer who asks all the correct questions does not seem to ask about the number 36 reference to author Govindarao of 1923. But in fact it is the YouTube video that cuts off from the interview.

My guess, but based on the more likely and simple assumption of the integrity of the researcher (Narayan?) which normally works in the regular world, is that he had expressed a more sympathetic view of the life of the original devadasi in the earlier part of the study. The kind of view expressed by an artist in the article we saw yesterday that was posted by Shankarank. If there was an expose of devadasi life in medieval India, and if it was respectful as Vairamuthu states, then that offensive line about Andal can be viewed as an INTERPRETATION of her life based on the social norms of the time: devadasis there were considered married to lord Ranganatha alone, to the exclusion of all others. The quote of researcher Govindarao (that ref num 36) would also be valid and not at all dishonest, as it is used the basis they require, to make that connection to Andal. Item 36 is not used as a quote but as a scholarly reference to a particular individual. They have put two things together: You have a social norm, you have a historical person of that period cited and described in a scholarly historical publication (not a religious source) and they interpret THAT ACCOUNT of a life as probably one of a great, devotional devadasi.

In this light, these researchers seem to have integrity, they were considering Andal with the mores of HER TIME and not ours and do not take anything away from her dignity. In fact they do us a favor - they make Andal a REAL person with incredible Bhakti instead of turning her into an quasi-mythical figure.

This DOES NOT mean that they say that she was in fact a devadasi, they offer it as an INTERPRETATION of the accounts of her life. Interpretation is never, never offered as fact.

I have no personal agenda, to me Andal"s beloved works stand tall of their own strength, the purity of mind and devotion expressed are sublime and I agree that there can be no new facts about her as there don't seem to be any further sources of that period, but I am open to interpretations and it is not sacrilege as there are no negative connotations implied (which many of you carry in your head, invalidating your sense of umbrage). Interpretations can only be rated as possible / probable, improbable based on the reasoning offered and surrounding evidence/facts available.

I don't think the researcher Narayanan is
shakkadai
.

I may write this, but I know that your emotional minds may not be able to even consider my reasoning. But this vilification of so many others ought to stop as long as we don't have full facts. The fact that is now missing is what was stated in that report about the lives of devadasis, and what light they were painted in, before the Andal reference.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sorry I forgot to put kvjayan's second post here in quotes. Done now.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Isaikkavi Ramanan's letter to Vairamuthu and poem posted in Tamizh section.
Last edited by kvchellappa on 16 Jan 2018, 09:04, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

kvc, that was posted in #7 already.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Sorry. Changed.

arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

Time to sing mangaLam:
tiruvADip pURathil jagathudithAL vAzhiyE!
tiruppAvai muppadum ceppinAL vAzhiyE!

Ranganayaki,
Thanks to you for being yourself, as usual. No stances, no pretenses :)
ANDAL is a mighty example for us women :) kOdai malarpadangaL vAzhiyE!


shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

With all the analysis he provided , he did not take into account the fact that , when he says certain political leaders used wrong language against Vairamuttu, he was contradicting his own historical account of the language. Why should anybody be offended now either ways? :) Does he mean to say that Vairamuttu's usage was all intentionally benign?

Weren't rationalist movement part of parcel of abolishing the system? Shouldn't they then know the current connotation of the term that they helped establish?

As regards U.vE . Sa and equating Vallalar with Christianity , we know the back ground of Vairamuttu and his ideology!

As regards Gnani Sankaran - he is another person who insinuated armed forces as mercenary! On whose pay roll was he?

Also if all the attention of people was devoted to solving economic issues and press is devoted to the same, will that solve those issues? What is preventing any government from solving those issues today - or for that matter during all the hey days of rationalist movement? Will this discussion distract the government from solving the issues for Transport staff - that much?

All Left chicanery!!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »


That was a relief to watch. Thanks!
arasi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 10:18 Time to sing mangaLam:
tiruvADip pURathil jagathudithAL vAzhiyE!
tiruppAvai muppadum ceppinAL vAzhiyE!
I heartily agree.
Ranganayaki,
Thanks to you for being yourself, as usual. No stances, no pretenses :)
ANDAL is a mighty example for us women :) kOdai malarpadangaL vAzhiyE!
Thank you, Arasi. I try not to say anything, but sometimes I get drawn in! 😐🙁

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 11:30 The world is armed to the very teeth. And the world is too much with us.
All talk of peace may be sincere, but such false ideology.
Yes , the experience of natives all through the colonial period is not considered knowledge until a leftist scholar with unbiased mind analyzes and writes about it!!!

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

#90-> Oh My dear!.. There are limits!. Evidently, you have not read the link properly. This was a sentence in the manifesto of HSRA of BC Vohra. You talk so much about Indian-ness but you are insulting some of the greatest patriots of our freedom movement. I have given life sketch of as many of those martyrs ( from wiki) and other sources. Read it again calmly.

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

shankarank wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 12:06 With all the analysis he provided , he did not take into account the fact that , when he says certain political leaders used wrong language against Vairamuttu, he was contradicting his own historical account of the language. Why should anybody be offended now either ways? :) Does he mean to say that Vairamuttu's usage was all intentionally benign?

Weren't rationalist movement part of parcel of abolishing the system? Shouldn't they then know the current connotation of the term that they helped establish?

As regards U.vE . Sa and equating Vallalar with Christianity , we know the back ground of Vairamuttu and his ideology!

As regards Gnani Sankaran - he is another person who insinuated armed forces as mercenary! On whose pay roll was he?

Also if all the attention of people was devoted to solving economic issues and press is devoted to the same, will that solve those issues? What is preventing any government from solving those issues today - or for that matter during all the hey days of rationalist movement? Will this discussion distract the government from solving the issues for Transport staff - that much?

All Left chicanery!!
Well said. The poet's academic defence (Indiana University) just crumbled. The writer who insinuated the armed forces, unfortunately died yesterday (army day).

ramamatya
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ramamatya »

Never allow outsiders to 'research' our culture. Outsiders' ulterior motive is to almost always malign us, make us feel 'ashamed' of ourselves. If foolish people like Vairamuthu follow them blindly, its all the more beneficial to the outsiders - helps divide and infighting.

Sachi_R
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Sachi_R »

Folks, I have not read all the posts or linked materials, but I watched the video that Suresh linked.

I don't know Vairamuthu, Gnani, Ramanan etc. and also don't read Tamizh. So please excuse me.

But after watching the video, I understand that Vairamuthu is supported by Gnani that Andal could only be a Devadasi because of her erotic poetry and literary ability.

I have some questions.
1. Whereas Rajaji said Andal was an imaginary person, and someone said Periyalwar(postedit🙂) passed off his poetry as that of an imaginary daughter Andal, is that enough evidence to make Andal a Devadasi, and delink her completely from her father who is also a saint? Do they imply he allowed her to become a Devadasi?Did he not know that madhurabhakti can be practised without being a Devadasi?
2. Only Devadasis were educated and artistically equipped? - that doesn't seem right. Did not Adi Sankara face Mandana Misra's wife in the debate? Was she not in fact the judge till then? Was she a Devadasi?
3. There is enough madhura bhava in our literature. Women were brought up to be not dumb but skilled in many ways. Who said only Devadasis were privy to knowledge?
4. Mallinatha - a Tirthankara, was a woman. One of the Nayanamars was a woman. Why couldn't there have been another woman saint, who stood for madhura bhava? Or were they also Devadasis?
Are these people saying a Sankara can be a great scholar at 8 but a woman who sang verses before 15 could only have been a Devadasi?
5. Kalidasa predates Andal. His story is that a princess scoffed at his illiteracy and he prayed to Devi and became Kalidasa. Was that princess also a Devadasi?
6. Bhaskara, the mathematician, had only a daughter Leelavati, whom he educated. Couldn't Periyalwar(postedit) have educated Andal?
7. The subsequent Srivashnava saints, especially Ramanuja, revered Andal. Were they fooled by a fictional figure? Were they hiding the fact of her being a Devadasi? Why?
8. Are there other Devadasis who have composed poetry etc. around 7th Century CE?
9. Did Devadasis learn music, dance, madhurabhakti, all just to fulfill a temple role? Did they have children? Or did they adopt other children as their own? How did they support themselves? Were there Devadasi Gurukulas? Where?
10. Akka Mahadevi was a noble woman who practised madhura bhakti. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akka_Mahadevi
Is her story also not similar to Andal's? Where is the Devadasi factor there?
Last edited by Sachi_R on 17 Jan 2018, 08:09, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

I think that the argument was that the story had many loose ends which could be tied up in different ways, none more satisfactory than any other, and Vairamuthu's borrowed contention was one possible way.

arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

Sachi,
Thanks for your lovely post :)
ANDaL, AvvaiyAr and others like akkamA dEvi were free spirits. rishi mUlam, nadi mUlam we know not. In dwelling ad nauseum on ANDAL's origins (mUlam), we lose her and let go of our privilege to adore her for her qualities and her poetry. Why? All because a well-known personality says something which he might not even have meant as a slur? He need not have said it. Agreed. But to read into it in very divisive sort of way is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by merely touching it. None of their descriptions say exactly what an elephant really looks like!
We gather here mainly to share our joy over music and other arts. We even argue, to air our frustrations. Fine, so long as we don't make it our main business:( So long as it doesn't hurt the sensibilities of fellow-members--and also those we target with contempt. So long as we are learning more with our exchanges, even from arguments...:)
Pongal is still with us. Not too late for observing bOgi paNDigai--getting rid of old rubbish.

tIyinil tUsAgum, cheppElOrembAvAi! All, into the bonfire of--vanities?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Andal was the daughter of Periazhvar and not Nammmazhvar.

arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

:)
All are nam (our) AzhvArs, though!

Sachi_R
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Sachi_R »

Uhho. shows how little I know. Naturally I confused Nammalwar and Periyalwar!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sure, Arasi, but I thought that RSachi might be happy to have that info. Also, I had this next post in mind, but not the time to write it out right then, so I sent out a one-liner.

Thanks for your previous post. I only just read it.
Sachi_R wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 21:28
But after watching the video, I understand that Vairamuthu is supported by Gnani that Andal could only be a Devadasi because of her erotic poetry and literary ability.

Couldn't Nammalwar have educated Andal?
RSachi, there is a slight nuance to the mention of erotic poetry that you might have missed. I don't know this Gnani either, have never heard of him. He mentions the eroticism of the Naachiyar Tirumozhi and says that since Andal is supposed to have only lived to the age of 14 or so, he cannot imagine that a child of such a tender age could possibly have written such erotica. So he says that either she was, as Rajaji says, a character created by Periazhvar and the works attributed to Andal were actually the works of Periazhvar, or Andal was probably older, about 20-25 years old. That is all he says about it.

He does not say that she must have been a devadasi for that age-related reason. You have to get that idea of devadasis as sexually exploited or sexually driven women out of this context. This is what angers everyone. He clearly says in the beginning of the video that devadasis were high-status women who were dedicated to god, to the exclusion of all mortal men. He does not associate sexuality with devadasis. He even says that their final state of being "seerazhunjified" (a tragic word meaning a state of ruin and disrepute) is a recent development of the early 20th century onwards.

According to the legend, Nammalwar did educate Andal.

But as this video says, and I agree completely with this, the question of Andal's origin simply cannot be definitely determined. She was either his adopted daughter or a character created in his literary mind for a literary purpose, and both possibilities take nothing away from the power of the poetry and its sublime devotional quality.

rshankar
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rshankar »

Ranganayaki wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 00:08 I don't know this Gnani either, have never heard of him. He mentions the eroticism of the Naachiyar Tirumozhi and says that since Andal is supposed to have only lived to the age of 14 or so, he cannot imagine that a child of such a tender age could possibly have written such erotica. So he says that either she was, as Rajaji says, a character created by Periazhvar and the works attributed to Andal were actually the works of Periazhvar, or Andal was probably older, about 20-25 years old. That is all he says about it.

He does not say that she must have been a devadasi for that age-related reason.
At the outset, I have absolutely no personal interest in this so called 'controversy'....I don't give a rat's ass. But from a purely academic point of view, this age-related rationale is a very interesting argument. Expanding it, since kRshNa was only 11 when he left vRndAvan for mathurA, and all of the rAs-related antics with the gOpis occurred in vRndAvan before he would have entered puberty, were they because he had some "professional grounding" in the erotic arts as well (a gigolo, perhaps)???

PS: A lot of the controversies being debated currently bring to mind jobless barbers and poor cats....

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

The beauty of the Krishna stories is that the rAs related antics were in the minds of the gopis - not in Krishna's. Kind of like the MGR movie duets.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Is it to say that rasakrida was hallucination? There is no hint of it in Bhagavatham.
It may be too simplistic to say that the idea of eroticism was unilateral.
The whole theme is, in my view, an allegory of the bondage human souls felt to something mysterious. Eroticism has been there even in Upanishads, rather to describe this affinity. It may be too unkind to dub the love of gopis as despised love. Krishna creates or contrives every situation for gopis to be infatuated with him, ironically as it were, and praises their love. A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

kvchellappa wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 03:50
It may be too simplistic to say that the idea of eroticism was unilateral.

The whole theme is, in my view, an allegory of the bondage human souls felt to something mysterious.

It may be too unkind to dub the love of gopis as despised love.

Krishna creates or contrives every situation for gopis to be infatuated with him, ironically as it were, and praises their love. A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.
KVC, Sureshvv did not say unilateral, he said the Lila is played in the minds of the gopikas, not in Krishna's mind. Asyou say it is an allegory for the yearning of the jeevatma for the Paramatma. And you probably mean bond and not bondage. Krishna has no use for the rAs in his mind, spiritually speaking, considering that he is considered god-realized or god itself. When we consider that Krishna creates these situations in the mind of the gopikas, it doesn't mean the eroticism is not unilateral. It is, to put it - yes - simplistically, but from a different angle. It is viewed as his grace in the spiritual yearning of the devotee. The gopika represents the yearning jeevatma, transcending male-female differences. It is a spiritual longing, spiritual dance, spiritual union.

Saying that this leela is in the mind of the devotee is not at all tantamount to saying it is despised love. Krishna does not spurn. He graces everyone with their sense of his belonging specially to them. This devotional position of yearning for the lord and pining for him because of the sense of separation from him is considered a high spiritual state, and I learned that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa lamented that such few people in this present world would cry, and shed tears because of this longing for god and this sense of separation from him. So when we - you or I in this world of today's - actually experience that longing, it is so mind-blowing that we experience it as a special grace we've received, that only the lord could have planted it in us.
rshankar wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 00:30 At the outset, I have absolutely no personal interest in this so called 'controversy'....I don't give a rat's ass. But

... were they because he had some "professional grounding" in the erotic arts as well (a gigolo, perhaps)???

PS: A lot of the controversies being debated currently bring to mind jobless barbers and poor cats....


Ravi, the above is my response to your question too. Yes I agree with you, anyone who posts anything at all on Rasikas or any such forum does consider that they have nothing better to do at that point!!! 😁

Thanks to Suresh for that helpful response.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 17 Jan 2018, 05:40, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks to all of you three just above, I feel so joyful to have gone into it and to have written that!!

rajeshnat
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rajeshnat »

Sri velukudi krishnan , a learned scholar with his measured response can be a better antidote to gnani.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_ntWpBlFA

ramamatya
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ramamatya »

This whole premise of Vairamuthu or the American scholar or any other scholar for that matter defies basic common sense. Can they answer to this question: Which devadasi ever lived with her father? Even if she were adopted, there was a father. Will he allow his daughter to be so?

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

Sir.. You are going by the 21st century definition of the term Devadasi. In previous centuries, it meant something else.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!

ramamatya
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ramamatya »

sureshvv wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 09:44 Sir.. You are going by the 21st century definition of the term Devadasi. In previous centuries, it meant something else.
OK, I stand corrected.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 03:50 Is it to say that rasakrida was hallucination? There is no hint of it in Bhagavatham.
<snip>
A mature reading of Bhagavatha would lead to bhakthi.
Looks like you have not reached the "maya" page yet. Must be in there somewhere. Keep reading :)

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 10:06 No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!
Always blaming somebody else for all your problems!

arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

We are all supposed to be dEva dASAs or dAsis, serving Him. At least, shouldn't we strive to be, for God's sake, or for our own sake?

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

Gnani Sanakran (in the above video link, passed away a few days ago) was perhaps a trend setter of sorts, for the latter day Tambram rebels and upstarts. When MS Subbulakshmi passed away it seems he wrote an obituary (in the Tamizh web magazine "Thinnai") discussing only about her 'brahminisation'. The readers' reaction was such that he declared he would not write any more for "Thinnai".

https://www.facebook.com/jataayu.blore/ ... 9051800961

arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

'Gnani' Sankaran is no more...

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 11:15
shankarank wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 10:06 No Sir, you should say , he goes by the Victorian definition of the term devadasi, it may actually not mean anything specific or odd for others outside that framework actually!
Always blaming somebody else for all your problems!
Hey, the country was not run by us or the way "we us" would have liked to be run!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

rajeshnat wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 07:02 Sri velukudi krishnan , a learned scholar with his measured response can be a better antidote to gnani.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_ntWpBlFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EkQa5PE1Qk

His speech in World Classical Tamizh Conference - Coimbatore. Apparently in some session, he brought a rare word used by Andal for the dust that emanates when a cow gets up , when sand gets pushed by it's breasts. Kalaignar was in awe of his depth in that regard. I don't recall what the word was.

I was overwhelmed by his discourse on Bhakti in Dallas - UTD.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »


arasi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by arasi »

நேய நிலைக் கதவம் நீக்கேலோரெம்பாவாய்!
Open wide the doors of goodwill and amity! sang ANDAL...
Critics of the article/speech, please give it a thought...:)

Haste in judgement in an emotional state may be followed by regret--as so well portrayed in the tale of the mother killing the pet mangoose who actually protected the child from a snake attacking it--just because she saw him blood-smeared as she walked into the house, thinking that the mangoose had mauled her child :(

A simple syllogism to make a case out of it for some:
All non-believers are awful
Vairamuthu is one
So, Vairamuthu is also awful

Do they forget that in all their haranguing, they giving scant thought to that Srivilliputhur-born kOdai? :)

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

There is no defence. He owes a straight and unconditional apology.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

Oh Please! Stop being a Hindutva stooge. He loves Andal much more than any of you.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Word allergy.

Antihistamines will not help. Antihysteriamines might, but, sadly they haven't been invented yet.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

Pl be temperate in language. The decent thing to do is to apologise when an overwhelming number of people have been hurt and the stance of the man is too well known. His love of Andal does not matter a bit. I am with Rajaji on Andal. The hurt is widespread and there is no point in explaining it. I am proud to be a Hindu and am not in the least apologetic about it. As a Hindu, I can respect an atheist, but the atheist has no right to offend believers.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

He has already apologized. The decent thing to do is accept it. Not get swept up in some "righteous holier-than-thou" indignation.

Atheist was speaking his mind. "Believers" are milking the issue at this point.

By the way "I am with Rajaji" is neither here nor there.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Suresh, lets set aside belief , emotions and sentiments. Can we critique him on his own frameworks? Being an intellectual who is discerning, should he not check out and study the scholars themselves , what is their institutional motives, what do their institutions do, how and why are they funded, what ideological, civilizational biases do they carry? - and so on.

How can he simply believe, whatever peer reviewed by a cabal of scholars, could be correct? So who is afflicted by belief?

I think he does not owe an apology. Instead he should do his own homework and do a critical study of others, just like he has done against Brahmin high-handedness and write his thoughts!

And contrary to claims made by others who post here, you also cannot take at face value, words like Atheist, belief etc!
Last edited by shankarank on 21 Jan 2018, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

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