Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

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sureshvv
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Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

https://scroll.in/article/864573/tamil- ... ontroversy

May help you make sense of some whatsapp forwards.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Victory for the British. We, who had amidst us people that taught them how English ought to be spoken, are being ruled by mores set by them on how we ought to be ruled and fighting over our own language!

Great achievement of intelligentia and the post colonial society! So why would the boutique media not have a feast over this? Ur iraNDu paTTAl kUttADikku koNDATTam!

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

Why drag the British in? This is a fully homegrown fracas - full of identity based arguments typical of our society.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

If they hadn't created the stigma, we would not have been in such a mess! I guess do you see the then Indian people who colluded, as subjects of British India or India?

Anyways wrong take for vairamuttu! Vairamuttu should have instead said Andal was a communist or Marxist. The people's same reaction then would have been fun!! Yes that is right, that should be the shunned word! I am waiting for the day when Marxist becomes the derided word and the only one! :lol: :lol:

And instead of apologizing, he should do something to stop the anthropologizing of Tamizh society and the language by Universities around the world. Especially the Tamizh Harvard chair!

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 11:47 If they hadn't created the stigma, we would not have been in such a mess! I guess do you see the then Indian people who colluded, as subjects of British India or India?
Oh Please! The stigma was already there. And probably for valid reasons. Let us start taking some responsibility for ourselves.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Stigma about everybody was there. Including Brahmins during Asokan Buddhist domination , about all of Hindus during Muslim rule, and vice-versa. Stigmas get institutional backing based on certain factors and the doctrines of the western thought is a major part of all this. Indians will ape the same, as people ape whatever is powerful, forgetting the roots all the time.

Just watched the Kucchipudi presentation, where the presenter said, it was converted to a male only dance in 14th Century due to feudal abuse of the dEvadAsi system etc. But the timing is interesting!

Vijayanagar nayakkAs also behaved very imperially! ViSvanatha nayakka is credited with the current district division and administration where he used the poligars/palayakkArars to collect tax and keep a cut!

The issue currently is a famous personality ( with institutional kind of power) said it , he quoted another powerful institution - a university from Indiana and media ( another institutional power) caught it, not about some private individuals saying it!

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

sureshvv wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 10:05 https://scroll.in/article/864573/tamil- ... ontroversy

May help you make sense of some whatsapp forwards.
According to the Scroll article, "Vairamuthu cited the research of an American scholar who said that Andal belonged to the Devadasi community". The poet defends himself by saying he only quoted a "research article" published from "Indiana University".

Aravindan Neelakantan has this to say, among other things in his detailed report in Swarajya magazine:

Apparently as a clinching proof, the lyricist provides a sentence from 'Indian Movements: Some Aspects of Dissent Protest and Reform' (Ed. Subhash Chandra Malik) published by Indian Institute of Advanced Study in 1978. Interestingly, the lyricist mentions the book as having published by ‘Indiana University of America.’

https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/aandal-at ... -and-again

Only Wendy Doniger remains to be quoted in support of Vairamuthu. He should have restricted himself to Andal's poetry, particularly in a meeting to celebrate Andal, in the month of Margazhi, held near Srivilliputhur. His title for the talk was a nice play of words, "Tamizhai Andal" (she who held sway over Tamizh). Other sociological analysis of Andal should have been taken elsewhere.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Academics come and go. Who cares? Why the fuss? They are not powerful!

ram1999
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ram1999 »

Musical Hero TMK has also chipped in supporting Vairamuthu's statement / comment. Briefly saw something in fb but cant track it now.

ram1999
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ram1999 »

""T.M. Krishna
21 hrs ·

In order to protect our false sense of morality, piety and sanctity we repeatedly deride and shame the devadasi. The controversy that has erupted over Mr Vairamuthu is deeply disturbing. Those who have taken offence to what he said have shown scant respect to the devadasi community. The reactions imply that Devadasis are lowly beings, outcastes sans any moral or ethical moorings. The reactions seem to be coming from the feeling "how can such a pure divine soul such as Andal be referred to as a devadasi. " This is so very problematic. Does Andal become lesser if she was a Devadasi ?

If the arguments countering Mr Vairamuthu were on an historical basis then the issue is entirely different, but that has not been the case. Even if Mr Vairamuthu was just being nasty, imagine if the reaction had been "we celebrate and worship Andal and if she was indeed a devadasi then we respect that too." Wouldn't this has been beautiful ? The fact that Mr Vairamuthu apologised for his comments only reveals his own disdain for the devadasi community. This entire episode is sexist and casteist.

For those who read devadasi as being = prostitutes, I have this to say. We have to respect prostitutes, they are people like you and me. We are the ones to blame for all the abuse and violence that they endure.""
Last edited by ram1999 on 11 Jan 2018, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

The fact that Mr Vairamuthu apologised for his comments only reveals his own disdain
Perhaps not. Perhaps it translates into recognition of the power of sentiment.

Better to live life alive and peace --- at the cost of a few words.

Sachi_R
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Sachi_R »

Only imbeciles will say Andal, daughter of Vishnuchittar, took up the Devadasi profession. OK, add Doniger, TMK and Vairamuthu to that list.

kvjayan
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan »

Indian Institute of Advanced Study (Shimla, HP), morphed into Indiana University (by Vairamuthu), from where an American scholar declared that Andal was a devadasi (according to scroll.in). Not very different from the namakaranam of Hamilton bridge (over the Buckingham canal in Chennai), which became Ambatta varavadhi in Tamizh only to be translated back into English as Barber's bridge, which remained in circulation for several years.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

The barbers who used to be seated on its sides providing instant service may have been accessories.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ponbhairavi »

It is a shame that to talk about Sri Andal , at Srivilliputhur during the margazhi festival , the organisers could not find a better person than vairamuthu whose credentials on vaishnavism are next to zero.this leads to a doubt about some black sheep .hope they will be careful not to invite T M K for the next occasion not even for a concert even if some vaishnavite média comes. Forward to sponsor as he has his own lyricists with whose songs he could fill the whole revolutionary concert.anyone who has recently been to Srivilliputhur could not have missed to notice the change in the complexion in the composition of population
I have a doubt that it is planned mischief and it is confirmed by the prompt jumping of TMK in the fray.may be vairamuthu could be the next Magsaysay awardee.

shankarabharanam
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarabharanam »

Ponbhairavi wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 18:49 It is a shame that to talk about Sri Andal , at Srivilliputhur during the margazhi festival , the organisers could not find a better person than vairamuthu whose credentials on vaishnavism are next to zero.this leads to a doubt about some black sheep .hope they will be careful not to invite T M K for the next occasion not even for a concert even if some vaishnavite média comes. Forward to sponsor as he has his own lyricists with whose songs he could fill the whole revolutionary concert.anyone who has recently been to Srivilliputhur could not have missed to notice the change in the complexion in the composition of population
I have a doubt that it is planned mischief and it is confirmed by the prompt jumping of TMK in the fray.may be vairamuthu could be the next Magsaysay awardee.
I was thinking the same. Why would someone called Vairamuthu of the all people to talk about Andal, just because he is a poet :shock: TMK has to ramble anything anti-brahmin. I just wonder if people like them will ever be invited by Christian missionaries or any other religious bodies. Will they say birth of Jesus can be contested. The issue lies more with people who organize such talks and people who listen to them.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 11:45 Why drag the British in? This is a fully homegrown fracas - full of identity based arguments typical of our society.
Before you get into the identity based reactions of people, was Vairamuttu able to defend the positivism of devadasi system? If no he has bought into the colonial , christian , marxist view of things which means , all of the latter sets the terms of reference of the debate under which all that has been said need to be made sense of!

If we need to question anything first, lets question the terms of reference of the debate. Not the identities of people! There is no universal citizen who talks shedding aside identities. If there is, that itself is a conceit , a subversive one at that, a myth created by the media!

And this starts from the economic models, which mostly shapes people's ethics, judgements etc.

Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3-zZKafajE

rshankar
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by rshankar »

shankarabharanam wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 20:08 Will they say birth of Jesus can be contested.
Isn't it already contested, at least with respect to the time? Based on astronomical descriptors, it is very likely that it happened in August (or sometime during the Summer months), but was 'moved' to December to coincide with a hugely popular pagan festival for the Winter Solstice to make the then new religion more acceptable?
Nick??

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

What a shame that Dhinamani published that silly slander by Vairamuthu!..Some yankee crank writes blasphemous nonsense in the garb of research and the yankee-hippies here swallow it as nectar. .. Kothai AandaaL is said to be the inspiration for Meerabai of Rajasthan. AandaaL's Thiruppaavai is absolutely captivating and sweet. There is no negative partisan stanza anywhere. in it. Poetry at its best. in chaste thamizh. One has to read Priyaazhvaar's 'pallaandu pallaandu' to understand how true vaishnavam abhors casteist inequality. And according to the legends, AandaaL was brought up by Vishnu Chitthar ( Periyaazhvaar). Only hippies without any sort of cultural roots indulge in such fake research. What purpose does it serve? When will we appreciate the importance of Myths? Myths are the essence of poetry in our lives. A truly spiritual person understands and appreciates the faith of all people. as did Dr.Abdul Kalaam., a shining example just like Smt.MS SUBBULAKSHMI. Be it Vaishnavam or Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism and Sikhism , faith and tradition have shaped our sense of values and given meaning and beauty to our base lives. . If one's faith and 'superstition' have made him lead a life of inner peace and service to society, what is our complaint? Sad. Whether it is Thiruppaavai or the Sermon on the mount, it is the message that matters . and not the so-called historicity. Quite predictable response from dregs of society , parading as social reformers. AandaaL will live for ever in our hearts. and fortunately for Tamil society, there is still hope. though decay is setting in gradually. in the name of rationalism and 'truth'. Who were the trustees and sponsors of the event in the holy precincts of Srivilliputhoor, pride of Tamilnad, who invited a brag and known atheist to deliver his 'speech? Contrast this with the lectures by Com.Jeevanandam on Ramayanam and of ma.po.ci. on Silappathikaram. Judge Ismail 's inspiring discourses on Ramayanam. Kalaigyar Karunanidhi himself will be known for his appreciative work on Saint Ramanuja.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 21:08 Before you get into the identity based reactions of people, was Vairamuttu able to defend the positivism of devadasi system?
The swarajya mag article cited above rebuts Vairamuthu's speculation very effectively.
If no he has bought into the colonial , christian , marxist view of things which means , all of the latter sets the terms of reference of the debate under which all that has been said need to be made sense of!
No need to drag all this in. That Vairamuthu was "shooting his mouth off" based on some invalid research and speculation is what needs to be established.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

The svarAjya article also gives in to the historicity! Media rebuttals have to conform to standards of debate set by those who hold the control on the current narratives. Perceived accuracy of history and consensus on it is the privileged preserve of powerful institutions who conceal all their biases and doctrines behind the veil of freedom!

Going by RSR's post, the sermon on the mount and message of tiruppAvai cannot be put on the same pedestal at the same time. The sermon on the mount forbids adultery. And later on : all humans born of sin!

But our itihAs reveres chastity of characters, at the same records some of their fallibility. Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband. Ahalya not able to spot Indra in disguise and so on! They do not explicitly deride anything. So it is pluralistic. And the plain evidence of history is also there - much of it witnessed up until recent times.

The Dravidian critics trained in Binary cannot understand this. They specifically use this as metaphor : if somebody displays in their door , that this is a home of a pattini - what does it say about other homes? - is how they pose questions! So it is this or that!


Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

It's no good asking me about Christianity's Jesus! Of course the birth is contested. The very existence is contested. Rightly so, according to me.

sureshvv
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 23:15 Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband.
She must have whispered this in your ear since I or anyone else I know has never heard of this :D

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

She asks why no such chastity related judgements have been made on Men. Well from Indra to the ascetic Saubhari in this story : http://srimadbhagavatham.blogspot.com/2 ... ni-03.html, the true picture of men is quite well analyzed. So there is no need to objectify Women at all to study men! Women are not even needed to cause this as the story goes! :lol:

I guess once they converted from paNNayars into clerks, they forgot their true nature - they thought slavery is equal to being disciplined! :mrgreen:

tyAgarajA has documented a lot about all the paNNayars!

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Jan 2018, 09:49
shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 23:15 Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband.
She must have whispered this in your ear since I or anyone else I know has never heard of this :D
Well a musician narrated this as a simile ( as to how each of the pativratas have a blemish!) , so do the greats of golden era, one cannot hold kARvai, one other top sa, another one lacks sAreeram and so on .. but were still able to work around their respective short falls ;) :lol:

You have not been around them quite looks like !! :mrgreen:

jshrikanth
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by jshrikanth »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Jan 2018, 09:49
shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 23:15 Draupadi for example wishing that kaRNA could have been her 6th husband.
She must have whispered this in your ear since I or anyone else I know has never heard of this :D
This is a folk tale made famous after the Marathi folk musical drama 'Jambul-Akhyana'. I'd seen the play nearly 3 decades ago in Mumbai and remember being part of several (often heated) discussions in the college hostel/ canteen. :-)

The story (as far as I remember) goes that, during their vanavaasa, the Pandavas and Draupadi each jambul fruit (jamun in Hindi, naaval pazham in Tamil) from a forbidden grove and need to get the purple stains off their tongues. Krishna, their rescuer as usual, tells them that these are magical fruit and the stains will be removed if the eater has no secrets in their heart. He advises them to unburden themseleves of their hidden secrets and wishes. Each Pandava does so and the last is Draupadi. And her last secret is that "if she were married to Karna, she would not have had to go through all the insults, public humiliation, pain of being gambled away, misery of years of forest life".

Apart from folk tales, the only reference I found (at that time) to this story was in Irawati Karve's wonderful little book Yuganta. In it she says the story is from a Jain Purana.

BTW, Yuganta is a must read for Mahabharata lovers. It is a series of small essays about the major characters in the Mahabharata. Each eassay is a rumination about the character as a human being, their virtues and foibles, issues/ circumstances faced, decisions made, consequences. Very sensitively written, but not pulling punches either.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@27->well said. This is the version that I too remember.. Mahabaratha was a story of historical ages. and there have been any number of additions during the course of centuries. True, the Sermon on the Mount condemns adultery.( i hope that there are no people here who appreciate adultery!). Yet , the same Jesus , reprimands the crowd that threw stones at Mary Magdalene, for being unchaste. 'Search your heart sincerely , if you have not ever coveted another 's woman. If you can be that sure that you are pure, you can then punish this hapless woman.' The crowd of stone-throwers melted away. At least, they had the grace to disperse. !. There are certain 'upaadhais' connected with human body like hunger, thirst, fear of pain, and such. If normal functions fail, it leads to death. kidney failure. and colon failure and such... This may not be the case with carnal desire and fulfillment. People who have conquered the self, ( pride, greed, lust, and desire) are known as sages. and saints. Shall we denigrate such seers like Ramana Maharishi, Paramahamsa and Shirdi Saibaba, all of them mystics, just because we are unable to attain that level? Shall we drag Sadaasiva BrammendraaL to our level? He used to wander about as Digambara. like Sage Suga. Let us have the culture to absorb the good things and leave out the bad things.. Though variety is the spice of life, there ARE good things and BAD things. we cannot equate them unless we are lazy hippies. That sense of discrimination , known as sense of values, and good taste is the hallmark of a rasika and that of this forum.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

I have not read the speech that is under attack, but this one twittered by V Ramnarayan I read and like:
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/b ... omen-74560

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

@28 -> RSR , as I have said many times, the critique is about the institutions after Jesus (you essentially made my point there!). Jesus' teachings are worth a ponder just like everything else.

As regards Mahabharata and the Draupadi story, it was used to only show to what great heights the golden era musicians strove to take the art - ooh!..ooh!.. :twisted: :lol: :lol:

Nick H
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H »

Jesus' teachings are worth a ponder just like everything else.
Apparently, Paul wrote most of them. And, if there is anything good in there (ok, there is,) it is the basic human ethics which christians seem to think they and their jesus invented.

Well... this is my particular rant subject, so have to vent it once in a while! :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Nick, Indian tradition is not [Ahem!] history centric - so if they say Jesus said it, that is good enough as per tradition - well I don't speak for Indians or even myself there.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

So here is the latest rebuttal in the editorial section:

http://www.dinamani.com/editorial-artic ... 42381.html

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

And here is Bharati's writing on the subject - Sorry accessible to only those that can read tamizh:

https://imgur.com/a/O9kgV

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

While discussing Women and music in general, Bharathy talks about Talam and in passing records the attitude towards the dAsis.

If we convert the message into action for today, males should learn a percussion or dance and same for females!

https://imgur.com/a/PQYhT

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. are Madurai Mani Iyer , Aalathoor brothers, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Dandapani Desikar,
Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Karaikkudi Samabasiva Iyer, T.R.Mahalkingam ( flute), Mysore Chowdiah, Palladam Sanjeeva Rao,
Devakottai Narayana Iengar, Chembai Vaidjyanatha Bagavathar, Smt.D.K.PattammaaL, Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi ( 'thulasi dhaLam uchyathe'), N.C.Vasanthakokilam ( unfortunate woman artiste), K.B.SundarambaaL,Radha-Jayalakhmi, ..They were all products of the Gandhi era and were of spotless character. . So far as I know, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai was said to be ostentatious in life style but no other weakness. and had the greatest regard to Kanchi Maha PeriyavaaL. The regard was mutual too. Madurai Mani Iyer's life is enough to melt even the stone-hearted. Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

This post of yours shows your views in a rather poor light, RSachi.

1. Strange that you would prescribe to Ms. Pillai what she needs to do about her feelings. You have never been in her shoes and yet you are knowledgeable enough of her situation to tell her exactly what she should do and how she SHOULD feel about your supposed respect for her community. Your words about her deep feelings in her post lack both empathy and compassion for her, a real person.
2. How do you know that the destruction of the devadasi system was not an insult to individual devadasis? You say that destroying all of devadasi culture was an attempt to end the practice of prostitution as a profession. If that was not an insult to individual devadasis then - and also now through your words - what exactly was it? A compliment? And the destruction a favor?
3. You offer a strange reason why these claims about Andal are offensive. How does the claim that she was connected to the temple through her alleged devadasi origin introduce the notion that she wanted to earn a living out of her devotion? How does this sudden claim by Vairamuthu or any researcher suggest that "she allowed herself to be a part of the sex-oriented profession." In the light of such a view, if today someone (like you) acknowledges MSS or Vina Dhanammal or all those personalities you cite as being of devadasi origin, is that automatically insulting in the way you are offended by the alleged devadasi origin of Andal? Why not? You are able to claim in your post that you have great respect for all these doyens, but you are offended by all sorts of implications that you declare are made by the notion of Andal belonging to their own community. Strange double standard, and very strange, your claim of respect for isai Vellalars, devadasis, MSS, Brinda, Bala, the Tanhore Quartet, etc.
4. It is very easy to get offended as you do by these questions, and lose clarity in the discussion of this Andal question.
5. Your second last sentence doesn't make much sense, especially with its inverted commas.

One cannot truly respect MSS, Brinda, Mukta, and all those wonderful people without acknowledging and honoring their community of origin which is what nurtured their talent as they grew up and MAY even make for their genetic predisposition for it. We all have benefited from it, and are indebted to all the influences that made for the growth of their talent, including their devadasi origin.

When we shout somebody like TMK down for referring to it, and when we claim that he is being disrespectful to MSS for referring to her origin, it is in fact we who are disrespectful, because we think that saying that she was ever anything other than the beautiful Brahmin wife she became is so abhorrent to us. But if we do acknowledge everything about her life and don't feel we need to stay "politely" mum - about her mum, may be - then we will be respecting her (and her mother) correctly AND showing less disrespect to her community of birth who in reality made her.

RSachi, what happened to the devadasis was an atrocity. But I do not judge the people who made it happen. In those times, they did the best they knew. But in today's world we have no excuse to hide our heads under the sand and negate everything we know about human rights, women's rights, sexual harassment, abuse of power, and say that it was right to wipe out the devadasis.

It was that culture that mainly preserved what we all claim to love. They were great dancers and musicians. They were dedicated to the temple. It was all they knew. It was natural for them to seek a better life. If there was no blanket protection for all of them, ensuring at least a basic sustenance, it was normal for them to accept protection from anyone who offered it.

If they were sexually exploited, it was not their fault. It was the fault of the men, all those famous and revered men who took advantage of the poor artist's plight and of their own power. That is the true evil of the devadasi system - the men preying on them and the lack of social protection.

But it was the devadasis who paid the price. Today they are no longer to be found, they do not have the purpose they had and they are like any of us. The temples are bereft of life-giving talent.

The offense in this Andal controversy is not the suggestion of devadasi origins, or any implication of baser conduct in Andal, but that such a study may be quoted by Vairamuthu without reference to any evidence that the study may or may not offer.

The calm question to ask is,"What is the evidence the researcher has offered to bolster his claim?" Instead of apologizing and thus insulting the people of devadasi origin, Vairamuthu should have offered what he knew of the evidence offered by the researcher and explained why he accepted it. Or he should admit that he did not see any evidence and retract his words, apologizing for his carelessness as a poet.

So does that study offer any evidence? As far as I am able to tell, it is not even clear where this research was conducted. And as for credibility, the speech seems to rely on the perceived greatness of American research as proof of credibility. The speech does not seem to even name the researcher or ensure his neutrality. It offers nothing at that level. (Correct me if I am wrong, i haven't heard the speech, i do acknowledge. I am going by what I remember of the article posted by Sureshvv.) An apology is appropriate, for that carelessness, and not for insulting Andal.

I agree with RSachi only on the point he makes that there does not seem to be a shred of historical or literary evidence of such an origin to Andal. RSachi is more certain of that then I am, but I am not very knowledgeable about all the details of Vaishnavite literature of that period. May be RSachi is, and he should enlighten us if he can. Certainly this notion is unheard of.

She might have been a devadasi. It is certainly true that she was found and raised lovingly by her father. But being of devadasi origin does not imply, as RSachi suggested, any desire for material gain, nor an involvement in prostitution. Her work stands by itself, her devotion is evident in her words, and the respect of over a thousand intervening years including her own contemporaries is to me evidence of her pristine mind, whether she was of devadasi origin or simply of unknown origin, raised by Periazhwar.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

@35-> May I quote from my own post in a different forum? "MS ‘s mother ShanmugaVadivu was a famous Veena player. It is unfortunate that women of this community were denied the status of a wedded wife but it does not mean that they were not loyal, dignified and unwed wives . In the first flush of English education , the legal profession was very lucrative and most of the lawyers were from brahmin community and being part landlords too, they became patrons for budding artists, replacing the feudal barons. That was a healthy development."..
This from 'reminiscence of MS in her own words' by Gowri Ramnarayan. "My love of music was fanned by the atmosphere in our house. My mother didn’t take me to too many concerts by other musicians. But they often came to our house. Great musicians like Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer, Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar and Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar would drop in. Their names may sound difficult to you, but their music was like mountain honey. Pure and sweet.
These artists would sit down, drink coffee, roll paan and tuck it into their cheek, or take a pinch of snuff, and talk endlessly about great music and musicians. The musicians who visited us would often sing or play their instruments. A nod from my mother was like loud applause to them. Sometimes she would pluck the strings and play, and they would listen eagerly. Sometimes these maestros would ask me to sing. They would teach me a song or two. In those days praise was not scattered easily. A nod meant tremendous approval. ’You must do well’ meant we had reached a high standard.
Local musicians too would come home to pay their respects to mother. Whenever the temple deity was taken out in procession through the main streets, the nadaswaram players, at the head of the line, would stop where our little street branched off. Then they would play their best for mother. I would run out and watch. I would be entranced by the sights and sounds. The gods were gorgeously bedecked in silks and jewels and flowers. There was chanting. And the majestic melody of the nadaswaram pipes rose with the big tavil drums. That kind of music is perhaps gone forever."

-----------------
Barathy of course is talking about the need for 'brahmin' women to learn classical music with proper laya knowledge. He does not say, that all keerthans are laya based. In fact, he ridicules Patnam Subramanya Iyer's kruthis is giving too much importance to layam. Evidently, when anyone sings a classical piece, with prescribed thaalam, he/she should do it faultlessly. That does not mean, that there are no kruthis with least stress on layam.
Likewise, in Barathy's days, women ( of whatever community) would never appear before strangers and sing sitting in a dais. Nor would they dance in solo in public. . Not to be confused with spontaneous folk-group dances by village women and jodhra dance ( so-graceful1) in temple festivals.
On a personal note, my mother and all my aunts could play Veena reasonably well. Not for publicity or concerts. but as prayer. All my cousins (sisters) had learned classical music through vidwans and singing kruthis of the Trinity was routine for them almost everyday.
With reference to jayamohan article, you might have noticed how Jayakaanthan charaterizes AandaaL. Unlike jemo, Jeyakanthan had his schooling under Jeevanandham, of those years and it shows.

RSR
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR »

#31-> Nick-> Your understanding of the teachings of Jesus , is wrong. Like Buddha and Mahavira, Jesus insisted on absolute non-violence even against obvious evils and cruelty. For Buddhists and Jains, there was no God and there is only the cycle of birth and rebirth ( based on one's deeds ) 'punarapi jananam, punarapi maranam, punarapi janani jadare sayanam. as Sankara puts it. ( he was a buddhist in effect). But the Hindu classical pantheon has many Gods who fight Evil and route them. The message of Gita is not non-violence . Ends justify the means. Not so for Christ's true followers. Latter day Brahmanism adopted many of Gauthama's teachings . and the latterday Jesuists adopt Liberation Theology. Doctrines change and merge.and change. Dialectical. ( no. Not Marx. it was Hegel who coined that word) Ends decide. the means. Much of Jesus teachings are re-statement of the Ten Commandments. of the Jewish religion. Paul was an organizer. The difference in the language of Old testament, the gospel and latter additions is evident. The language and life style of Paramahamsa vs life of Vivekananda. illustrates it. No denigration meant.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa »

I am all at sea.
Is devadasi an inferior being? That can have no absolute answer because this notion of inferior is in the social consciousness of every society. 'Samatva' does not obtain. TMK or a member of an elite and aristocrat class like him is not the same as anybody else.
Is devadasi community to be perpetuated? Why? Today, there is so much permissiveness, single parent children, etc. and it is slowly getting accepted. Is it not better for achieving the equality one clamours for? Why have a community identity, which will never achieve the ideal one wants? What have they lost? Why should their past identity matter now? Why are we (they also) harping on it in today's society?
Was TMK trying to exalt devadasi community by pulling in that perspective in his tirade on MS? No, he was trying to parade his intelligence and new-found rationalism and iconoclasm. MS did not shy away from her identity and she achieved whatever she achieved with that identity. The society at large accepted her and admired her. To bring that tag again in a silly way was an ugly aberration, not a service to the community nor a deserved comment on the life of MS.
Was Andal from that community? I did not know. I am sure many would not have known. Why was that reference made now? Is it to do honour to that community? Certainly not. It was to hurt those that commemorate her memory through her immortal poetry. The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi. Why should one kindle the faded memory of the community and claim that one is honouring that community?
The intention of what one is saying comes through unless one is daft. It is that which causes ruffling of feathers.
I see no argument why devadasi community must have continued with or without social respect.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

@36 ->
RSR wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 00:17 @35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. .....
.........Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.
The simile had music on one side and conduct ( the women characters in epics!) on the other side. Conduct of musicians was not part of the equation. For me their music speaks and if they had good enough conduct to bring music to us and command respect in a sadas, that should be golden enough.

But I was just having a bit of mocky fun at the lofty comparison nevertheless , again without bringing their conduct into the equation.

Just making sure.. my twisty emoticon is not further twisted into something else! :mrgreen:

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 01:02 With reference to jayamohan article, you might have noticed how Jayakaanthan charaterizes AandaaL. Unlike jemo, Jeyakanthan had his schooling under Jeevanandham, of those years and it shows.
Now .. Now .. Now .. you are establishing a Rshi and a guru SiSya parampara for Marxism! My physics teacher narrated once how he was amused by a North Indian Phd. Candidate, working under a North Indian Guide, who would preface his/her dissertation with "I will present my work.. but Guruji will interpret it"... at the end adding in his inimitable style "There are no Gurujis in Physics!!".

So if this is all [Ahem!] social science, then type of schooling should not matter! ;)

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 03:01 The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi
In terms of ApaurushEyatva , the puruSha that is a creation - the identity is de-emphasized. So whatever is celebrated is not an identity. That is why even if earlier she was celebrated only within a certain identity - because things pass down as family tradition and gurukula of a certain tradition was restricted within that clan, as soon as the advent of information era (I would say post independence) and people living nearby across identities ( even keeping their own!) , she came to be appreciated by one and all!!

As soon as you talk of identity, you are talking body - not even the jIvAtma!

Sachi_R
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Sachi_R »

Ranganayaki,
Yes, I did tell Ms. Pillai to get over her feelings. I think cool reflection needs it as a precondition, for her, you, or me. If you read the thread there on FB, you will see she cooled down a bit and we saw eye to eye.

Devadasi, as a caste/category of women who were serving in the temple and then serving society as concubines or prostitutes, was an evil as perceived by the enlightened people who banned it.

Why did they ban it? Perhaps all Devadasis would not have been accomplished and respected artistes, but were surely subject to the element of exploitation one can conjecture.

I agree we cannot judge those times and people's actions then, just as we cannot generalise our positive or negative assessment of current times.

Surely we cannot start writing articles that MSS sanitised her music and brahminicised her image for social and artistic public success and this is an evidence of social evil etc.

I have spoken to Mr S Krishnamurthy, (grandson of Sri Mysore Vasudevacharya), who knew MSS and Sadasivam well. He has written a very good book on MSS. I have translated the portion where he says MSS had explained to someone that she had made a deliberate and happy choice in her marriage because that would bring an honourable and safe position in society for her. It had nothing to do with music or name or fame.

The burden of my thought is we have to respect each human being and give him or her the due privacy. At the same time if a section of society is exploiting another, we should fight that evil. And if we are speaking about highly revered historical personalities, we should curtail conjecture and avoid imputation and scandal.

I don't read Tamil. I have been to Srivilliputtur, I have read and listened to umpteen accounts of Andal's holy life. She was the very young daughter of a temple priest who fell in love with God very much like Meera, Akka Mahadevi etc. Happily, unlike them, she did not suffer stigma or injustice. Definitely not the travails of a Devadasi.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 04:53
kvchellappa wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 03:01 The memory of Andal is that of a Vaishnavite devotee, an identity that is far more powerful as a community than that of a devadasi
In terms of ApaurushEyatva , the puruSha that is a creation - the identity is de-emphasized. So whatever is celebrated is not an identity.
Having said that, the collective memory of a tradition within a clan of people is sacred - and should be treated as such by others as well. There you are talking Identity - but then the value (of treating it sacred!) observed, transcends identities!
Sachi_R wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 07:53 The burden of my thought is we have to respect each human being and give him or her the due privacy.
I would prefer the "duty" perspective above, than any "right" perspective as rights are difficult to obtain and enforce - very resource intensive and unsustainable!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 07:53 Ranganayaki,
Yes, I did tell Ms. Pillai to get over her feelings. I think cool reflection needs it as a precondition, for her, you, or me. If you read the thread there on FB, you will see she cooled down a bit and we saw eye to eye.
For your sake Sachi I did go and read that thread, because I could not imagine how you and Ms Pillai could have seen eye to eye without some sort of accommodation from you. I was not wrong. I don't understand how you imagine that you both ended up seeing eye to eye. She disagreed with you completely. You agreed a little condescendingly with her by saying you appreciate her respect for azhvars and artists. (You may not have been intentionally condescending). She clearly tells you that she cannot agree with you and that she is very much hurt and pained. Yet you delude yourself into thinking she "cooled down a bit." You imply that she listened to your wisdom about cool heads, causing her to agree with you. It did not happen. Worse, you gave her that Vivekananda example for no reason. Vivekananda walked out on this courtesan in a fit of righteous indignation and then was gracious enough to be moved by her singing and her theme. Yes, true story. What would your point have been? It's rather shameful, but even you cannot see it, sadly. And I considered you wise.

You don't achieve cool reflection by invalidating her fair and just opinion and then shoving your opinion to the forefront as true and as all that matters. You just caused her more hurt. Your own reflection is not cool either because you are offended by the Andal controversy and by tmk.


Devadasi, as a caste/category of women who were serving in the temple and then serving society as concubines or prostitutes, was an evil as perceived by the enlightened people who banned it.
At best they might have meant well, but they certainly weren't enlightened. Enlightened people would have fought the evil by offering the devadasis assured sustenance and punishing the exploiting men. They were foolish, throwing the baby with the bath water. Enlightened people don't eradicate an evil by destroying the victims. They destroy the perpetrators.

If you generalize devadasis serving society as concubines or prostitutes as the main evil, you are not enlightened either.
Why did they ban it? Perhaps all Devadasis would not have been accomplished and respected artistes, but were surely subject to the element of exploitation one can conjecture.
Yes all were probably not greatly accomplished. But you need a large number of aspirants to achieve a good number of greats. What you uphold as a great event is a classic case of, again, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I agree we cannot judge those times and people's actions then, just as we cannot generalise our positive or negative assessment of current times.
I don't know exactly what that line is about.
Surely we cannot start writing articles that MSS sanitised her music and brahminicised her image for social and artistic public success and this is an evidence of social evil etc.
I don't think that is what TMK said, though he did not care to express himself with clarity. Going by the wider body of his writings and speeches about MSS and devadasis, I gather that he was not attributing sinister motives to her. He was excoriating the prevalent attitude of upper caste people, who would not have accepted her without her transformation. Just as she made
a deliberate and happy choice
in getting married, it was a deliberate and happy choice to conform to brahminical expectations to consolidate her position in her new community. What's wrong with saying that. Women in every family feel he need to consolidate their position in their new family. For her it was a new community and her public as well. It is pragmatism, social wisdom. TMK seems to decry the need for that. It's quite simple.

When you see young artists who feel the need to wear marks of religion to gain acceptance as serious musicians it is an indication of this rather brahminical dominance. These artists would not wear these marks in their daily lives. I'm sure TMK also remembers this about himself, and that is probably what he is fighting against. Now, at this stage in his career, he can dare to be on stage without his shrichurnam. It's the same phenomenon.

At the same time if a section of society is exploiting another, we should fight that evil.
Yes, agreed, but how? By destroying the victim according to you? Or by punishing the powerful and moneyed perpetrator? Did they dare?
And if we are speaking about highly revered historical personalities, we should curtail conjecture and avoid imputation and scandal.
And we could stop imagining scandal where there is none.

I don't read Tamil. I have been to Srivilliputtur, I have read and listened to umpteen accounts of Andal's holy life. She was the very young daughter of a temple priest who fell in love with God very much like Meera, Akka Mahadevi etc. Happily, unlike them, she did not suffer stigma or injustice. Definitely not the travails of a Devadasi.
I agree. This question is irrelevant, and the proper response would be to ignore it. The wrong response is to claim Andal ( or her reputation) was sullied by the devadasi origin allegation, thus heaping insult on all devadasis.

You all need to stop referring to devadasis as prostitutes. A small number of them may have resorted to prostitution, more may have relied on a single man for sustenance and protection, and others may have had an independence brought to them by their talent. The main thing to remember about them is that they were the custodians of our art and culture. But all you people talk about is prostitution, and of their very existence as an evil. Terrible! Very mean!
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 13 Jan 2018, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

ram1999
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ram1999 »

RSR wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 00:17 @35-> My idols of the Golden Era.. are Madurai Mani Iyer , Aalathoor brothers, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Dandapani Desikar,
Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Karaikkudi Samabasiva Iyer, T.R.Mahalkingam ( flute), Mysore Chowdiah, Palladam Sanjeeva Rao,
Devakottai Narayana Iengar, Chembai Vaidjyanatha Bagavathar, Smt.D.K.PattammaaL, Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi ( 'thulasi dhaLam uchyathe'), N.C.Vasanthakokilam ( unfortunate woman artiste), K.B.SundarambaaL,Radha-Jayalakhmi, ..They were all products of the Gandhi era and were of spotless character. . So far as I know, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai was said to be ostentatious in life style but no other weakness. and had the greatest regard to Kanchi Maha PeriyavaaL. The regard was mutual too. Madurai Mani Iyer's life is enough to melt even the stone-hearted. Here and there, a few might have strayed. but the code of conduct in personal life was very high.
Gandhi era - Gandhi had hell a lot of spots. All the goof ups are affecting our country in a big way and seems irrepairable 🤣🤣🤣

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:08 He was excoriating the prevalent attitude of upper caste people, who would not have accepted her without her transformation.
Ranganayaki wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:08 TMK decries the need for that.
So I don't understand how you can defend the liberal nitwitism of this kind - a straight playbook from sensitivity training given in the West on how to accept people of difference, except that the people of difference are already anglicized mostly, it is just that they may not be able to laugh at some of the humor! :evil: These are all the new sociology theories - which will soon see their end!

Every society looks for assimilation under normal circumstances. The society that MSS came into was not living the same lifestyle ( lets leave aside for a moment all the ritualistic pretensions of the Brahmins!) even in material terms. If she made a choice, then you cannot expect a society that is still shaping up trying to figure out what it's place is in the new Indian mileu, to change to accomodate the life style of her background that she herself walked away from even as an early adult! She had not lived it too long to know what that might be or what it may mean in the then current circumstances.

This is the new equality brigade exporting the new social theories to India , a sanitized version of Marx inspired liberalism that has never proven itself.

Give you an example: The western ranchers , who got their ranch as a prize for fighting in wars and wealthy fellows , setup Medical Insurance and liability laws so that doctors don't play with their lives and their estate can collect a hefty sum if something were to happen to them. Liberal nitwits thought that ou :lol: ought to be giv :lol: , give :lol: given :lol: to everybody :twisted: . Except with that you wouldn't mostly find a qualified doctor nearby to check your temperature as most viable doctor businesses will not take such an insurance!

Get it?. Ask TMK to take his equality clause to his own little island , that may need to be sand-formed off the beaches - way off the territorial waters!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:52

?
Shankarank, I would love to respond to you, but I have no idea what you said there. I understand it was a rant on various topics. I have tried, but have never been able to follow you. Sorry.

shankarank
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Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank »

Oh yeah you pretentious ! You don't even understand where your ideas came from! Good trick. I guess you are so ingrained in these that you have not questioned it and thought about it.

I am questioning why anyone should even expect Brahmins to accept as is , anyone who want to live with them and serve them in whatever form - like perform music to them? What is the argument here?

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