Thyagaraja was a product of his times

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kvchellappa
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#1 Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by kvchellappa »


narayan
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#2 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by narayan »

Such articles are interesting because they talk about Tyagaraja the human, and not only Saint Tyagaraja. For humans like me, it makes sense to try to understand the social context, with all its uncomfortable warts, and still marvel at the music the man must have created.

shankarank
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#3 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Saint is an English mis-translation. Nobody beatified him! If some people believe the rituals are too much, they will get most English death anniversary days of his not coinciding with puShya bagula pancami - and they can hold a candle light vigil in a sombre mood - fitting the occassion!

svAmi does not mean saint - "svA" still has self in it. Like he was full of conscious! Like svaRga is not heaven! The rookie MA Secretary equated Saint with svAmi and said he will not use even the latter - in his Q&A in KGS @ the nATya kalA conference 2017.

The sooner we get out of this nitwitism is better!
Last edited by shankarank on 14 Jan 2018, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

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#4 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Now I know why they named it YACM! It is just a transpose of YMCA! YMCA Yoga! or YACM Yoga! yes!!

bhakthim dehi
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#5 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

He is indeed a Saint in any sense.
This is one attempt of the writer to denigrate the image of this Saint in a subtle way. His views on the krithi Dudugugala serves as an example.

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#6 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by MaheshS »

The "Saint" attribute might be due to him getting Sanyasa. As far as I am aware there is no concept called Canonisation in Hinduism is there?

bhakthim dehi
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#7 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

What more qualification is required to call a person as a Sanyasin?

kvchellappa
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#8 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by kvchellappa »

Are all sanyasis saints? There are those that take to sanyas just when doctors give up, after having led a bhoga life. This is not a comment on Thyagaraja. I am not interested more than the music he has given. Whether he was a saint or not, he was great musically. I do not get an impression that Sriram was flippant about Thyagaraja. He is an ardent rasika of CM and an admirer of Thyagaraja. He has done so much study about him and his songs and written laudatory articles on him.

bhakthim dehi
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#9 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Interested in the music of Thyagaraja? I amuse seeing your statement.
I am not only interested in the music of Thyagaraja. His sahitya reflect the essence of Upanishad and other early texts.
You must open your eyes to understand more. Once you get the feel of those krithis and their inner reflections, you can understand the articles written by him.
If you have read the book by Dr Raghavan, you will withdraw your statement that he has done a research. He is just linking some historical points with the sahityam. If you want to say this as a research, go ahead.
I always seem him as a good writer and a historian. Nothing more.
Unless you get connected with the composer, you will only laud him.

bhakthim dehi
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#10 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Mahaperiyavaa has said "don't doubt others regarding their level of spritual enlightment. Rather concentrate on your self". This is applicable to all Sanyasi 's whose wish is not to gain any benefit.
Also, he didn't take "apath sanyasam". He got initiated by another Sanyasi ritually.
I suggest you to read some genuine books to know about these these composers before reading articles like this.

kvchellappa
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#11 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by kvchellappa »

As i said, I have no interest in Thyagaraja other than his music (however laughable it is). i have no disrespect for him in any way. I do not quite believe in saints and sinners. That is all a passing phase. I would like to read anything of interest in any order and evolve as it happens. I have benefited reading your comments also though i lack the background to appreciate the full import of what you are saying (e.g. on sangathis). If i join issue, it is not because i know, it is mostly in ignorance part of which will go by discussion, rather than by keeping quiet.
I said 'study', not 'research' about Sriram. I thought there was a difference between the two words.

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#12 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Really appreciate that you continue discussing with me, without taking my arguments personally.
I like to share what I know. Alos, like to know the comment/opinion of others, as this makes me to think more and I have learnt a lot from them too. Not knowing is the first step. Trying to know what we don't know is next. I think you can pursue that, though its your wish.
Its very easy to write an article about our composers, just by reading commentaries of their krithis, having a basic knowledge about allied subjects like history, philosophy etc and having a good command over the language. But, what is not seen by these authors is that the deeper knowledge that is required to understand the real message conveyed by them.

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#13 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by sureshvv »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 14 Jan 2018, 22:06 He is indeed a Saint in any sense.
This is one attempt of the writer to denigrate the image of this Saint in a subtle way. His views on the krithi Dudugugala serves as an example.
What if I say that by according him the title of "Saint" (which he didn't apply for), you are denigrating his genius and creativity? In a subtle way.

kvchellappa
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#14 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by kvchellappa »

I have a similar idea if I understood the statement above. By making some people appear to be an avatar or a special creation of god, we smudge the hard work and application they have put in to count above others. They are human beings like us who distinguished themselves, and by ascribing it to god they maintained humility. In a private conversation an atheist questioned a staunch believer why it is necessary to believe in god if he can be virtuous without such belief. The believer replied, "So that you will have humility." This was told to me by the atheist.
I find it possible to admire Thyagaraja without having to bother about whether he was a saint or not.

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#15 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

For me, greatness of any composer is not because of the status or title that we give. It is mainly the message that they convey through their works.
I think you need to read Yenippadigalil mandargal by Sri Sivan Sir and other theological books, be it Adavaitha vedantham or Vishistadvaitha vedantham. Lack of basic knowledge makes you ask such questions.
When I say them a Saint, it is only because of the knowledge and enlightenment that I get from their krithis. I never see them as super humans and unless I get some evidence from their works, I won't believe apocryphal stories too.

What I feel is, they are ahead of us (this is for great composers in general ) in the spiritual plane or they can be Jeevan mukhtha too (in the case of composers like Trinity or Brahmendra).
It's the respect that they deserve for getting elevated from a normal state of human being like us (see the word status).
These krithis are not only for musical entertainment. They mean more. For example 'agnana dvantha prachanda baskaro', must not only please you musically, the words must stir you and stimulate to look in for the real Baskara who can remove our agnana.
After all, as Tyagarajar said, 'eela kani vivarimpaleyanu, chaala swaanu bhava vedyamae', these are to be experienced by everyone of us individually and cannot explained by me.
Till you arrive at that point, you see these krithis only as a means of enjoyment and get these kind of questions.

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#16 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 18:56 I think you need to read Yenippadigalil mandargal by Sri Sivan Sir and other theological books, be it Adavaitha vedantham or Vishistadvaitha vedantham. Lack of basic knowledge makes you ask such questions.
Text writing and understanding by reading and interpreting using a dictionary are all colonial methods for an outsider to understand the other ( natives in their case) - so they can control them!

My goodness gracious lord! So we now have to read??!!!.

Don't we have extended family? Parents visiting us at least? If the son saw an old father/mother as merely as bodies consuming food out of his budget, would he allow them to live with him. Whatever "-aita" begins at home!! Like Charity begins there?!

An American child asked an Indian origin American child, how a sambandhi and sambandhi (in-laws and in-laws) could visit them at the same time and reside in the same house!!! OK the Indian parents need some help - but is it all just Selfish?!

Yes books were written, because the writers thought, may be society has become unaware!!


You say theology! And we use the term Atheists ! Where is Theism before we can talk of Atheists???

The entire philology project is just that : Colonial or Neo-Colonial!
Last edited by shankarank on 16 Jan 2018, 03:45, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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#17 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

OK OK.. home is too much of a restricted , confined space... We are in the process of taking life to new spaces ... I get it!!!!

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#18 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

My Jewish friend, elementary particle physicist - narrated to me, a story. A set of people were thought to be Soviet spies. The American investigators wanted to crack that - they initially didn't know how to.

The suspected spies were asked to recite the 5 stars ( the American Anthem) - and they all did perfectly. The investigators knew they were spies , as no American was known to correctly recite all the 5 stars!!

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#19 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#14-> So, according to the aesthete , the compositions of Purandharadasa, Sadasiva BrammendraL, the trinity and other CM composers, are just the result of 'HARD WORK and PRACTICE'!.. . You need Divine Grace Mr. How did Sri.Ravikiran emerge as a prodigy at mere age four? Have you not heard about the boy Barathy's ' paar athi chinnap payal' poem, when court poets of Ettayapuram zamin tried to ridicule him, asking him to compose a stanza ending like that!. He was mere seven year old boy then. CM if considered to be just some hundreds of ragams, a prescribed laya system and scope for raga elaboration and genius variations, fast brugas, and such, without the least concern for the lyrics and message of the lyrics, there can be film songs with all these ingredients, with orchestration too thrown in. . ( The film songs of Smt.MS, NCV, DKP, excluded...they were all classics). The lyrics by Papanasam sivan in Sakunthalai, are great compositions on the theme of Environment. but still, the essential ingredient of CM is missing. Not so in the other films by MS. . Considering that almost ALL the compositions of the great composers already mentioned are theistic , is there any vidwan prepared to completely avoid singing them in concerts or teaching them? Or if they really sing them, how could they capture the spirit ( bhaavam) of the composition? Better switch over to HM or WM. .

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#20 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/ObmiGIJHiqg?t=1260

You see - in the above he says - SrI citravINA Narasimhan would say a 4 year old is too late to begin! That kind of validates the Grand Father - Grand Kid - sense of sacred theory.

B'coz a 4 year old may still figure out fatherhood and may innately express resentment without being able to say in words: "I am a product of your pleasure - why should I listen to you??" Like how an American born daughter of Indian male and American Woman told her Uncle. But she was not 4 years old actually much elder - but may be , may be there is something wired in the brain that makes even a 4 or 5 year old figure this out. We don't know.

The father until then is likely no different from a Grand Father!
Last edited by shankarank on 15 Jan 2018, 23:39, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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#21 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

For those who missed a father or a Grand Father , there is still recourse. It seems now-a-days Bhajans , nAma sankIRtanam, Abhangs are held in stadiums , go listen and dance to it. Understanding of music begins with the interval ( not just beats) between two syllables.

You may at least become a true rasika in some sense.

If you wait until you understand meaning ( or do a lot of philology to know the meaning !) and words to figure out bhavam, it may be just too late!

You may be convinced/conceited by the latest philology that declares nAma sankIRtanam is a religious experience , intended to kindle religious feelings!

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#22 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by narayan »

RSR wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 22:35 Better switch over to HM or WM. .
Dear RSR,
Perhaps this advice was not for me, but it seems like a good idea. At least then for the next many years I will have to learn some art and that is probably good for me.

Dear others,
Is it just me or do other people's heads here start spinning when reading some of the stuff here. Take sankarank. He understands every response of mine or others and has an immediate response to all posts, including his own. But often I just can't make out a thing of what he's trying to say. Additional proof that the Ph.D. I have is not worth the paper it was engraved on. I accept that it is my limitation, but can others here make out what on earth is going on?

As happens every once in a while, I plan to just retreat to "Ragas" and other quiet backwaters of this forum.

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#23 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 15 Jan 2018, 11:34
I like to share what I know. Alos, like to know the comment/opinion of others, as this makes me to think more and I have learnt a lot from them too.
I too am a huge admirer of Tyagaraja's personality , apart from his music . Tyagaraja was an empath I feel . An empath could be talked about as " someone with very very high empathy for people's suffering and evils of society " It is very much evident from his sahityam that he worried about the double faced nature of some men . Empaths have an extreme sense of humility . Refer to Tyagaraja's " bhuvini dasudane " . Empaths genuinely care about the cruelty and atrocities in this world . They want people to attain liberation . They are healers. Tyagaraja's music has such a healing and elevating effect .

bhakthim dehi
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#24 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes.
Also, he was a strict follower or rituals too. People often quote his krithi 'yagnadulu' to give a contrary opinion. He, he condemnss aanimal sacrifice. Surely, it was a response to some incident which we don't know, and without knowing it unwise to conclude he is against the rituals.
What they fails to see is he has said in first person, that he was doing japam, tapam and aupasanam daily.. Last one is a fire ritual.
Analysis of any composer has to made as a whole and it should be done only through their works.

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#25 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

Yes , in shashi vadana , he mentions " dinadinam aupasana , japa tapa dhyana manu yagamu vela manasuna buttina " . But he was only for satvik means of worship like these . He condemned " jivatma himsa " as evident in yagnadulu .
What about manasu swadhinamaina ? mari mantra tanthramu ela ? Maybe I think it's for the jivanmuktha , the liberated soul .
I feel Tyagaraja was trying to covey something inn shashi vadana . He was attacked by Rama ? He says that lot of vanity arose in his mind due to him performing these rituals , and Rama was harsh with him , causing him misery . Why did he sing this kriti ? What had happened to him ? Could anyone shed some light ?

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#26 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes can be.
What I can understand from his krithis is that, je was a follower of Bhakthi cult, meaning he should have been a Vishishtadvaitin or Dvaitin. He might not had a taste to follow Advaitam. Later, he could have become an Advaitin, or he could have realised Advaitam too can give moksham (I am using the word 'too' to represent the followers of Vishishtadvaitim, who feel only Vishishtadvaitim will fetch us moksham).
In ninne bhajana, he says Rama nama has accrued him the benefit of yoga (dhyanaadhi japa tapa yoga Dhyana samadhi - many of which are the limbs of ashtanga yoga).
It is crooked if we say Thyagarajar has condemned yoga margam.
As I said, deeper understanding of our scriptures is a must to know the inner reflections.

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#27 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Manasu swadheena can be taken as one rare example where he goes near the tenets of Advaitam.

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#28 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 15:38 Manasu swadheena can be taken as one rare example where he goes near the tenets of Advaitam.
When hecondemns tapas in manasu swadhinamaina , he means to say tapas is not needed for a jivanmuktha ( in the most melodious fashion ! What a line ! ).

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#29 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Is he declaring that he is a jeevan muktha indirectly?

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#30 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 16:20 Is he declaring that he is a jeevan muktha indirectly?
Couldn't be , since he got sanyasam only during the last days. And , so many sastrigals / vedantins give upanyasam on jeevanmukthi , that doesn't make them a jivanmuktha too ! One needn't be a jivanmuktha to talk about it .
But Tyagaraja became a videha muktha at the end of his life for sure and he attined jivanmuthi prior to that after getting sanyasam. This is for sure .

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#31 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sanyasam is not a pre requisite to get into the state of jeevan mukthi. Deekshithar, a jeevan muktha didn't get initiated into sanyasam.
If we are not ready to believe the story which made him to get into sanyasam, there must be some valuable reasons for him to do that. Bit not to attain the status of jeevan muktha.

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#32 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 18:43 Sanyasam is not a pre requisite to get into the state of jeevan mukthi. Deekshithar, a jeevan muktha didn't get initiated into sanyasam.
If we are not ready to believe the story which made him to get into sanyasam, there must be some valuable reasons for him to do that. Bit not to attain the status of jeevan muktha.
Hmm yes , I agree . It seems like Tyagaraja was a jivanmuktha .

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#33 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@22-> Narayan kindly note that I give the reference to the post. It was not meant for you. Without disrespect, CM and Bakthi movement are not meant to be approached from any doctoral -thesis angle. And there are phd's and phd's. May I point out that almost all the greats of the golden era ( MS, DKP, NCV, Mani Iyer, Ari, Alathoor , Musiri, Chembi) hardly had any college education, leave alone doctorate. .. and HM being more emotion-based is better suited for lyric-less and non-devotional genre of classical music. and I love HM. I do not know Western Classical. ..Kindly note that for those who love the raga alaap , and such, there is nothing to be apologetic about it. I had specifically mentioned Nagaswaram players and Instrumentalists.... The series of posts in this page by scholars who approach Thyagaraja swami's kruthis as they should be, reverently, are inspiring. All the great composers of the past CM were mystics. I miss Sri.Govindan here in the discussion. His Thyagaraja Vaibavam site is a labour of devotion and dedication.

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#34 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 23:16
For those who missed a father or a Grand Father , there is still recourse. It seems now-a-days Bhajans , nAma sankIRtanam, Abhangs are held in stadiums ,
#21-> Crossing limits of decency here.. Son of a bachelor as 'Plum' would say. and 'quoting tolkaapiyam/ iyar yaatthar karanam 'enba. go! figure!
Yes. There is nothing wrong in Naama Sankeerthana. group singing. of the Lord's name. Much more than the CM concerts..ego-centric and perhaps libido-centic,too. Varkari sect Pandaripuram yathra group songs are truly of great musical value.

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#35 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 20:07 HM being more emotion-based
Then isn't CM based on emotion ? If so , what is it based on ?

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#36 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 20:07 Kindly note that for those who love the raga alaap , and such, there is nothing to be apologetic about it.
Could you elaborate ? Why should we feel apologetic ?

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#37 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@35,36.. What I mean to say is that CM in its core is devotion-oriented. and kruthi-oriented. In CM we do have emotion appeal but hardly of romance in the normal sense. I may not be able to articulate clearly. but kindly have a look at sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs and sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams
HM differs in that there is less emphasis on lyrics. HM musicians mainly concentrate on the raga alaap. I am not talking about light classical HM. . I wish to thank you for proper perspective on Thayagaraja swami as a mystic.

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#38 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@21-> Here is a write up of varkari sect abhang.
The 'Abhang' holds its own " The Bharatiya Samagana Sabha's ninth annual festival 'Svaralankara' at Chowdiah Memorial Hall starts with an exclusive 'Santavani' (words of the saints) concert by Hindustani vocalist Sangeetha Katti on January 17.
The festival will end on January 21, with a vocal concert by Carnatic sister-duo Ranjani-Gayatri who are known for their rendering of 'Abhangs' in the Carnatic tradition.
These devotional songs are sung in traditional tunes in the 'Varkari Sampradaya' by pilgrims on their way to Pandharpur. "But when musicians started singing these devotional songs on the concert platform, they had to apply their knowledge of 'raags' to these compositions," says Katti.
Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/653 ... s-own.html

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#39 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 23:18 @35,36.. What I mean to say is that CM in its core is devotion-oriented. and kruthi-oriented. In CM we do have emotion appeal but hardly of romance in the normal sense. I may not be able to articulate clearly. but kindly have a look at sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs and sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams
HM differs in that there is less emphasis on lyrics. HM musicians mainly concentrate on the raga alaap.
As I read through this something came to my mind. The rAgam kaRnATaka kApi. When I hear the sUmasAyaka vaRNam, and wonder how in that rAgam Carnatic flavor is held tightly - I kind of felt that is the real rAgam. But then tyAgarAja made lot of kritis in karaharapriyA . It tells me ( I bring to bear lot of my musical biases into this) - tyAgarAja made new music using a different flow in time scale and karaharapriyA stands with an identity because of the layam investment ( yati viSrama) done on it.

I kind of understand what musicologists mean when they try to say rAgA is the core of Indian music - but then it feels to me they should be talking kaRnATaka kApi as more of a rAgam than karaharapriya. A vaRNam can be composed in any rAga today , but it will lack the grandeur of those that are composed in real rAgams.

But I also find it somewhat odd, that we talk of lyrical music and lyric-less music. Our forumite Sivaramakrishnan (in a recent conversation) brought to my attention , that the term sangItam is defined as gItam , vAdyam and nrityam. In fact that definition is more based on forms - but it still tells me there is something more underneath!

I mean that definition does not rule out something as sangItam if one or more of components are absent - if we consider a more fundamental notion held in Indian thought , which may not have been said in an explicit form in any particular tradition or treatise, that in India:

It is not that Language is music

or that music is language,

But music and language are synonymous

- and this is much before letters combine into words and meaning emerges.

This is not an attempt to trace everything to vEdic tradition or something, to me even the first kuRal and the nature of Tamizh language tells me that. I find the terms isai-tamizh and tamizh-isai very odd. They may have been used to describe some later day categorization, but fundamentally Tamizh as a language is also music and arose as music!

Even if we accept it as some grand principle - truth of it apart, lack of lyrics in HM vs, instrumental music in CM would not make much difference to us. If the whole thing is seen integrated , absence of one or the other does not reduce the sense of the wholeness of the thing.

If there is one universal statement Indians can make to the world - it is that: in here, music and language are synonymous!

The recitation tradition of languages tells us that pretty much - that we are not too anxious about meaning!

Three of us - two Brahmin fellows and a third from likely an OBC caste ( which was not a factor in IITs at that time) from Bihar learnt vEdic recitation properly from a professor - and none of us had any inclination to learn Sanskrit. A further weaker section student who looked devout would come and learn Sanskrit from him. May be he wanted to understand the tradition that excluded him. Even seeing him , we were not suddenly inspired to learn Sanskrit. He went about his way and we went about our ways!

RSR
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#40 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

"Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri."..
------------Clearly explained. I would only replace 'carnatic concert' with 'carnatic music'.
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No language or words or even letters can be equated with music. They are entirely different and distinct. Music is essentially about ragam and ragam is a particular pattern of the swaras. To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience. Where are the words there? Next would come the Nagaswaram and Veena. HM instrumental music is very special. Sitar, Sarod, Sarangi, Dilrubah, Surbahar, Swaramandal,. because of the introduction of sympathetic strings.
from wiki)
---"In medieval times, the melodic systems were fused with ideas from Persian music, particularly through the influence of Sufi composers like Amir Khusro, and later in the Mughal courts. Noted composers such as Tansen flourished, along with religious groups like the Vaishnavites.

After the 16th century, the singing styles diversified into different gharanas patronized in different princely courts. Around 1900, Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande consolidated the musical structures of Hindustani classical music, called ragas, into a number of thaats.
Distinguished Hindu musicians may be addressed as pandit and Muslims as ustad. An aspect of Hindustani music going back to Sufi times is the tradition of religious neutrality :- like, Muslim ustads may sing compositions in praise of Hindu deities and vice versa."...

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Addition of Studio orchestration is a really wonderful innovation. ( but not suitable for carnatic concert..but what is so special about concerts ( kutcheris?). Why not remove the visual part entirely and offer only the audio as in AIR programs?
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The question is not about Thamizh or Samskrutham or Vedic chant. Vedic chant may be the beginning steps of music with words. Granted, they have a ring of their own. It is not correct to say that they do not attach importance to meaning! what a strange statement! I am having in mind, the SriSuktham. Next, comes chanting of sanskrit slokams, and tamizh parayanam of Dhivyaprabantham and other devotional literature. But no music in old tamil classics of sangam literature. There were good pen portraits but the poets were yet to arrive at metrical measures and mastery of rhyme. Even Silappathikaram, with its brilliant flashes could not sustain it throughout. Mutthollaayiram set the standard. and tamil poetry never looked back since then.,An extension was in Dhivyaprbandham.and Thiruppaavai .But can we get the same experienceby just reciting as we hear the same poems rendered with suitable ragams? M.L.Vsanthakumari's service to music by her unostentatioous rendering? ....
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I am sure that I am not alone in this forum, to consider MS rendering of Aaychiyar Kuravai as a ragamalika. ' Vadavaraiyai matthAakki 'as an unparalleled gem . Before hearing that, the passages in the aaychiyar kuravai were just lovely poetry to me. But the absolutely ravishing musical composition by S.V.Venkataraman ( great choice of ragams for the six stanzas), incomparable singing by the one and only MS , and the beautiful lyrics merge together to result in an exhilerating religious mystical experience.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... matthaakki
I do not know which came first, concert rendering or recorded song. ( I tend to think, that the song was recorded first). .. Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !". How can we 'write' about such experience? words are not music. lyrics are not music. piety alone is not music. language is not music. instrumentation is not music. but all these together in correct proportion and sung with artistry and devotion.. we get a masterpiece.
I hope that there is no 'sophistry and word play' here. Just 'felt' experience.

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#41 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 ...Ilango Adikal , a jain, ..
?? Whats the backstory and the conjectures here?

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#42 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@41. -> The entire thread is the background for this post. Especially , as reply to #39.
The pointer is to the unity of all religious experiences. Adikal's portrayal of dialog between kavunthi adikal and a brahmin pilgrim and his belief, without rancour. is famous. ( in contrast to the MaNimelkalai)
Ilango AdikaL portrays the lives and beliefs current in his times. He describes KaLi worship(pAlai), Aychiyar Kuravai(mullai) , and in vanjikkAndam speaks of the experiences of mountain dwellers. ( kurinji).
Catholocity of Ilango Adikal is extolled here. Hence 'nenjai aLLum silappathikaaram ' as celebrated by Barathy.

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#43 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !".
Thought you will make him at least an honorary Vaishanavite for this.

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#44 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 09:57
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !".
Thought you will make him at least an honorary Vaishanavite for this.
See the categorization at it's worst - playing out. This is a normal thing then! Irrespective of kazhuvETRam of the jains and all other conflicts it has turned out to be a co-existing tradition!
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 like, Muslim ustads may sing compositions in praise of Hindu deities and vice versa."...
Tell me why should any musician - NOT sing in praise of particular thing - whatever it is. And why is that relevant here? Can we ponder on what is this "religion" thing. Who invented the name "Hindu"?

This statement about religious neutrality is invalid! This is a normal thing in those times and in a place called India. The reason why it appears significant for you is because you seem to be indulged in reading the book or pay too much attention to those that go by the book.
The reason and manner in which this is pointed out as significant itself exposes the real truth behind it! What is the big deal here?
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience. Where are the words there?
Typical Anthropologist. How many fossils exist with skeletons holding a flute and how many holes were there? Did they have accurate harmonic capable distance? Laughable! Actually not, many musicologists will be interested! That is more important than the collective memory and tradition passing down between generations.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 "Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri."..
A cursory listening of any Abhang , how it sung even today by a Maharashtrian in varkAri or even by R&G using sampradaya sangItam, will tell me that nothing is fused. Things are fused today like that by incompetent composers and the results are plain in front of us to see!

This bhakti as a component is coming from the composite term : Bhakti Movement - a complete leftist subversion and a lie! Especially the movement part. The bhakti saints should have killed other non-bhakti traditionalists if it were a movement. That is not the case. It is a continuation of earlier traditions, and many a composition prides itself saying it is a sarAmSa of the vedic truths.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 "In medieval times, the melodic systems were fused with ideas from Persian music, particularly through the influence of Sufi composers like Amir Khusro, and later in the Mughal courts. Noted composers such as Tansen flourished

After the 16th century, the singing styles diversified into different gharanas patronized in different princely courts. Around 1900, Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande consolidated the musical structures of Hindustani classical music, called ragas, into a number of thaats.
Analysis of the package wrap at delivery points. No consideration into how a siksha was carried out, what discipline, how it passed down from generations. You should not do such analysis as you have done above. You should conclude , just like the emperors who listened to the music for pleasure, and just like how musicologists tell everybody else , that Music is what gives pleasure to people's ears and stop there!
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 , along with religious groups like the Vaishnavites.
Vaishnavites did not persecute everybody else, even though there are some statements said in fit of anger, they cannot be considered as a religion in the normal sense of religion of a book that invalidates and falsifies earlier traditions. They are referred to with a word sampradAya - where it means it passes down through Acharya and gurukula. The prefix "sam" in "sampradaya" is good enough to distinguish that from the word: religion.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Vedic chant may be the beginning steps of music with words. Granted, they have a ring of their own. It is not correct to say that they do not attach importance to meaning! what a strange statement!
It was said with a different intention. In tradition during chanting, if a Sishya approaches the guru for meaning, the Guru will tell him first learn vyAkaraNa and then come back before discussing meaning. Even then, it is the guru as adhikAri who is the holder of meaning. siShya's attitude and chanting perfection is tested before meaning is discussed.

Now as to music: So what you hear is the ring of their sound , i.e. svarams used. That is not the reason for me to link language to music. There is the chanda part. And the actual physicial counts there also is irrelevant to today's music , in fact even the few svaras have made it into music more than the chandas. It is the principle behind the chandas and how it was observed with reverence is what is relevant to all music.

The rhythmic system in it's formulation shows that sanskriti in both systems of music. And that is also transcended as musicians just don't sing to tALA as well as percussions don't just play to it.

shankarank
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#45 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 No language or words or even letters can be equated with music.
Language as a means of communication is certainly important during military conquests and in administration - where the latter is just a continuation of the former. All administrative hierarchies, are patterned on ideas from military chain of command and modern corporate style reflects that as well!

Obviously marxists will be interested in this aspect of language - there also I guess language is one thing (syntax) and communication is something else!

In peace time, even the armies celebrate with marching bands and kings listened to poets. So language as an expression of joy where it is indistinguishable from music is of no interest to Marxists. They are obsessed with "power" will see it as a stolen item for fusing with music!

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#46 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@43->Nay!..Why 'honourary?' . The Vaishanavas will gladly grant 'prime leadership' to Ilango Adikal. for the entire passage in Maduraikkaandam.

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#47 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@44-> Does not make any sense. @45-> totally uncalled for and irrelevant. I am a staunch Nehruvian and of course a Maexist WITHIN nehruji's perception. . I cannot even agree to disagree with you. Bye.

shankarank
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#48 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 16:33 @43->Nay!..Why 'honourary?' . The Vaishanavas will gladly grant 'prime leadership' to Ilango Adikal. for the entire passage in Maduraikkaandam.
The vaishnavAs of today revere SrI vEdanta dESika so much that, they claim if he had not fenced their siddhAntAs well enough, SrI Appayya dIkshita might have grazed into their territory! So there is lot more than what might be in some passage! :)

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#49 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Even the contrary is true. If not for Kumara Thathacharyar, Apppaya Deekshithar would have bagged many converts.

shankarank
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#50 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience.
Music advances with invention or discovery of newer and newer instruments of course ;) :lol: Sorry Udhay - I had to use that punch.

Nice to read: http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 352922.ece

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