Thyagaraja was a product of his times

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bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes can be.
What I can understand from his krithis is that, je was a follower of Bhakthi cult, meaning he should have been a Vishishtadvaitin or Dvaitin. He might not had a taste to follow Advaitam. Later, he could have become an Advaitin, or he could have realised Advaitam too can give moksham (I am using the word 'too' to represent the followers of Vishishtadvaitim, who feel only Vishishtadvaitim will fetch us moksham).
In ninne bhajana, he says Rama nama has accrued him the benefit of yoga (dhyanaadhi japa tapa yoga Dhyana samadhi - many of which are the limbs of ashtanga yoga).
It is crooked if we say Thyagarajar has condemned yoga margam.
As I said, deeper understanding of our scriptures is a must to know the inner reflections.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Manasu swadheena can be taken as one rare example where he goes near the tenets of Advaitam.

ratanabhinav
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 15:38 Manasu swadheena can be taken as one rare example where he goes near the tenets of Advaitam.
When hecondemns tapas in manasu swadhinamaina , he means to say tapas is not needed for a jivanmuktha ( in the most melodious fashion ! What a line ! ).

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Is he declaring that he is a jeevan muktha indirectly?

ratanabhinav
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 16:20 Is he declaring that he is a jeevan muktha indirectly?
Couldn't be , since he got sanyasam only during the last days. And , so many sastrigals / vedantins give upanyasam on jeevanmukthi , that doesn't make them a jivanmuktha too ! One needn't be a jivanmuktha to talk about it .
But Tyagaraja became a videha muktha at the end of his life for sure and he attined jivanmuthi prior to that after getting sanyasam. This is for sure .

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sanyasam is not a pre requisite to get into the state of jeevan mukthi. Deekshithar, a jeevan muktha didn't get initiated into sanyasam.
If we are not ready to believe the story which made him to get into sanyasam, there must be some valuable reasons for him to do that. Bit not to attain the status of jeevan muktha.

ratanabhinav
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 18:43 Sanyasam is not a pre requisite to get into the state of jeevan mukthi. Deekshithar, a jeevan muktha didn't get initiated into sanyasam.
If we are not ready to believe the story which made him to get into sanyasam, there must be some valuable reasons for him to do that. Bit not to attain the status of jeevan muktha.
Hmm yes , I agree . It seems like Tyagaraja was a jivanmuktha .

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@22-> Narayan kindly note that I give the reference to the post. It was not meant for you. Without disrespect, CM and Bakthi movement are not meant to be approached from any doctoral -thesis angle. And there are phd's and phd's. May I point out that almost all the greats of the golden era ( MS, DKP, NCV, Mani Iyer, Ari, Alathoor , Musiri, Chembi) hardly had any college education, leave alone doctorate. .. and HM being more emotion-based is better suited for lyric-less and non-devotional genre of classical music. and I love HM. I do not know Western Classical. ..Kindly note that for those who love the raga alaap , and such, there is nothing to be apologetic about it. I had specifically mentioned Nagaswaram players and Instrumentalists.... The series of posts in this page by scholars who approach Thyagaraja swami's kruthis as they should be, reverently, are inspiring. All the great composers of the past CM were mystics. I miss Sri.Govindan here in the discussion. His Thyagaraja Vaibavam site is a labour of devotion and dedication.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 23:16
For those who missed a father or a Grand Father , there is still recourse. It seems now-a-days Bhajans , nAma sankIRtanam, Abhangs are held in stadiums ,
#21-> Crossing limits of decency here.. Son of a bachelor as 'Plum' would say. and 'quoting tolkaapiyam/ iyar yaatthar karanam 'enba. go! figure!
Yes. There is nothing wrong in Naama Sankeerthana. group singing. of the Lord's name. Much more than the CM concerts..ego-centric and perhaps libido-centic,too. Varkari sect Pandaripuram yathra group songs are truly of great musical value.

ratanabhinav
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 20:07 HM being more emotion-based
Then isn't CM based on emotion ? If so , what is it based on ?

ratanabhinav
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by ratanabhinav »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 20:07 Kindly note that for those who love the raga alaap , and such, there is nothing to be apologetic about it.
Could you elaborate ? Why should we feel apologetic ?

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@35,36.. What I mean to say is that CM in its core is devotion-oriented. and kruthi-oriented. In CM we do have emotion appeal but hardly of romance in the normal sense. I may not be able to articulate clearly. but kindly have a look at sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs and sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams
HM differs in that there is less emphasis on lyrics. HM musicians mainly concentrate on the raga alaap. I am not talking about light classical HM. . I wish to thank you for proper perspective on Thayagaraja swami as a mystic.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@21-> Here is a write up of varkari sect abhang.
The 'Abhang' holds its own " The Bharatiya Samagana Sabha's ninth annual festival 'Svaralankara' at Chowdiah Memorial Hall starts with an exclusive 'Santavani' (words of the saints) concert by Hindustani vocalist Sangeetha Katti on January 17.
The festival will end on January 21, with a vocal concert by Carnatic sister-duo Ranjani-Gayatri who are known for their rendering of 'Abhangs' in the Carnatic tradition.
These devotional songs are sung in traditional tunes in the 'Varkari Sampradaya' by pilgrims on their way to Pandharpur. "But when musicians started singing these devotional songs on the concert platform, they had to apply their knowledge of 'raags' to these compositions," says Katti.
Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/653 ... s-own.html

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 16 Jan 2018, 23:18 @35,36.. What I mean to say is that CM in its core is devotion-oriented. and kruthi-oriented. In CM we do have emotion appeal but hardly of romance in the normal sense. I may not be able to articulate clearly. but kindly have a look at sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs and sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams
HM differs in that there is less emphasis on lyrics. HM musicians mainly concentrate on the raga alaap.
As I read through this something came to my mind. The rAgam kaRnATaka kApi. When I hear the sUmasAyaka vaRNam, and wonder how in that rAgam Carnatic flavor is held tightly - I kind of felt that is the real rAgam. But then tyAgarAja made lot of kritis in karaharapriyA . It tells me ( I bring to bear lot of my musical biases into this) - tyAgarAja made new music using a different flow in time scale and karaharapriyA stands with an identity because of the layam investment ( yati viSrama) done on it.

I kind of understand what musicologists mean when they try to say rAgA is the core of Indian music - but then it feels to me they should be talking kaRnATaka kApi as more of a rAgam than karaharapriya. A vaRNam can be composed in any rAga today , but it will lack the grandeur of those that are composed in real rAgams.

But I also find it somewhat odd, that we talk of lyrical music and lyric-less music. Our forumite Sivaramakrishnan (in a recent conversation) brought to my attention , that the term sangItam is defined as gItam , vAdyam and nrityam. In fact that definition is more based on forms - but it still tells me there is something more underneath!

I mean that definition does not rule out something as sangItam if one or more of components are absent - if we consider a more fundamental notion held in Indian thought , which may not have been said in an explicit form in any particular tradition or treatise, that in India:

It is not that Language is music

or that music is language,

But music and language are synonymous

- and this is much before letters combine into words and meaning emerges.

This is not an attempt to trace everything to vEdic tradition or something, to me even the first kuRal and the nature of Tamizh language tells me that. I find the terms isai-tamizh and tamizh-isai very odd. They may have been used to describe some later day categorization, but fundamentally Tamizh as a language is also music and arose as music!

Even if we accept it as some grand principle - truth of it apart, lack of lyrics in HM vs, instrumental music in CM would not make much difference to us. If the whole thing is seen integrated , absence of one or the other does not reduce the sense of the wholeness of the thing.

If there is one universal statement Indians can make to the world - it is that: in here, music and language are synonymous!

The recitation tradition of languages tells us that pretty much - that we are not too anxious about meaning!

Three of us - two Brahmin fellows and a third from likely an OBC caste ( which was not a factor in IITs at that time) from Bihar learnt vEdic recitation properly from a professor - and none of us had any inclination to learn Sanskrit. A further weaker section student who looked devout would come and learn Sanskrit from him. May be he wanted to understand the tradition that excluded him. Even seeing him , we were not suddenly inspired to learn Sanskrit. He went about his way and we went about our ways!

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

"Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri."..
------------Clearly explained. I would only replace 'carnatic concert' with 'carnatic music'.
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No language or words or even letters can be equated with music. They are entirely different and distinct. Music is essentially about ragam and ragam is a particular pattern of the swaras. To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience. Where are the words there? Next would come the Nagaswaram and Veena. HM instrumental music is very special. Sitar, Sarod, Sarangi, Dilrubah, Surbahar, Swaramandal,. because of the introduction of sympathetic strings.
from wiki)
---"In medieval times, the melodic systems were fused with ideas from Persian music, particularly through the influence of Sufi composers like Amir Khusro, and later in the Mughal courts. Noted composers such as Tansen flourished, along with religious groups like the Vaishnavites.

After the 16th century, the singing styles diversified into different gharanas patronized in different princely courts. Around 1900, Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande consolidated the musical structures of Hindustani classical music, called ragas, into a number of thaats.
Distinguished Hindu musicians may be addressed as pandit and Muslims as ustad. An aspect of Hindustani music going back to Sufi times is the tradition of religious neutrality :- like, Muslim ustads may sing compositions in praise of Hindu deities and vice versa."...

-------------------
Addition of Studio orchestration is a really wonderful innovation. ( but not suitable for carnatic concert..but what is so special about concerts ( kutcheris?). Why not remove the visual part entirely and offer only the audio as in AIR programs?
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The question is not about Thamizh or Samskrutham or Vedic chant. Vedic chant may be the beginning steps of music with words. Granted, they have a ring of their own. It is not correct to say that they do not attach importance to meaning! what a strange statement! I am having in mind, the SriSuktham. Next, comes chanting of sanskrit slokams, and tamizh parayanam of Dhivyaprabantham and other devotional literature. But no music in old tamil classics of sangam literature. There were good pen portraits but the poets were yet to arrive at metrical measures and mastery of rhyme. Even Silappathikaram, with its brilliant flashes could not sustain it throughout. Mutthollaayiram set the standard. and tamil poetry never looked back since then.,An extension was in Dhivyaprbandham.and Thiruppaavai .But can we get the same experienceby just reciting as we hear the same poems rendered with suitable ragams? M.L.Vsanthakumari's service to music by her unostentatioous rendering? ....
----------------------------

I am sure that I am not alone in this forum, to consider MS rendering of Aaychiyar Kuravai as a ragamalika. ' Vadavaraiyai matthAakki 'as an unparalleled gem . Before hearing that, the passages in the aaychiyar kuravai were just lovely poetry to me. But the absolutely ravishing musical composition by S.V.Venkataraman ( great choice of ragams for the six stanzas), incomparable singing by the one and only MS , and the beautiful lyrics merge together to result in an exhilerating religious mystical experience.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... matthaakki
I do not know which came first, concert rendering or recorded song. ( I tend to think, that the song was recorded first). .. Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !". How can we 'write' about such experience? words are not music. lyrics are not music. piety alone is not music. language is not music. instrumentation is not music. but all these together in correct proportion and sung with artistry and devotion.. we get a masterpiece.
I hope that there is no 'sophistry and word play' here. Just 'felt' experience.

sankark
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 ...Ilango Adikal , a jain, ..
?? Whats the backstory and the conjectures here?

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@41. -> The entire thread is the background for this post. Especially , as reply to #39.
The pointer is to the unity of all religious experiences. Adikal's portrayal of dialog between kavunthi adikal and a brahmin pilgrim and his belief, without rancour. is famous. ( in contrast to the MaNimelkalai)
Ilango AdikaL portrays the lives and beliefs current in his times. He describes KaLi worship(pAlai), Aychiyar Kuravai(mullai) , and in vanjikkAndam speaks of the experiences of mountain dwellers. ( kurinji).
Catholocity of Ilango Adikal is extolled here. Hence 'nenjai aLLum silappathikaaram ' as celebrated by Barathy.

sureshvv
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !".
Thought you will make him at least an honorary Vaishanavite for this.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 09:57
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Ilango Adikal , a jain, singing the praise of the Lord NarayanAa ' NArAyaNaa ennA Naavenna Naave !".
Thought you will make him at least an honorary Vaishanavite for this.
See the categorization at it's worst - playing out. This is a normal thing then! Irrespective of kazhuvETRam of the jains and all other conflicts it has turned out to be a co-existing tradition!
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 like, Muslim ustads may sing compositions in praise of Hindu deities and vice versa."...
Tell me why should any musician - NOT sing in praise of particular thing - whatever it is. And why is that relevant here? Can we ponder on what is this "religion" thing. Who invented the name "Hindu"?

This statement about religious neutrality is invalid! This is a normal thing in those times and in a place called India. The reason why it appears significant for you is because you seem to be indulged in reading the book or pay too much attention to those that go by the book.
The reason and manner in which this is pointed out as significant itself exposes the real truth behind it! What is the big deal here?
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience. Where are the words there?
Typical Anthropologist. How many fossils exist with skeletons holding a flute and how many holes were there? Did they have accurate harmonic capable distance? Laughable! Actually not, many musicologists will be interested! That is more important than the collective memory and tradition passing down between generations.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 "Content-wise, with its strong devotional core, it is a natural part of the Carnatic repertoire. The Carnatic concert is all about fusing melody, classicism, beautiful lyrics, rhythm with 'bhakti'. An 'Abhang' is all this," say Ranjani-Gayatri."..
A cursory listening of any Abhang , how it sung even today by a Maharashtrian in varkAri or even by R&G using sampradaya sangItam, will tell me that nothing is fused. Things are fused today like that by incompetent composers and the results are plain in front of us to see!

This bhakti as a component is coming from the composite term : Bhakti Movement - a complete leftist subversion and a lie! Especially the movement part. The bhakti saints should have killed other non-bhakti traditionalists if it were a movement. That is not the case. It is a continuation of earlier traditions, and many a composition prides itself saying it is a sarAmSa of the vedic truths.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 "In medieval times, the melodic systems were fused with ideas from Persian music, particularly through the influence of Sufi composers like Amir Khusro, and later in the Mughal courts. Noted composers such as Tansen flourished

After the 16th century, the singing styles diversified into different gharanas patronized in different princely courts. Around 1900, Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande consolidated the musical structures of Hindustani classical music, called ragas, into a number of thaats.
Analysis of the package wrap at delivery points. No consideration into how a siksha was carried out, what discipline, how it passed down from generations. You should not do such analysis as you have done above. You should conclude , just like the emperors who listened to the music for pleasure, and just like how musicologists tell everybody else , that Music is what gives pleasure to people's ears and stop there!
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 , along with religious groups like the Vaishnavites.
Vaishnavites did not persecute everybody else, even though there are some statements said in fit of anger, they cannot be considered as a religion in the normal sense of religion of a book that invalidates and falsifies earlier traditions. They are referred to with a word sampradAya - where it means it passes down through Acharya and gurukula. The prefix "sam" in "sampradaya" is good enough to distinguish that from the word: religion.
RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 Vedic chant may be the beginning steps of music with words. Granted, they have a ring of their own. It is not correct to say that they do not attach importance to meaning! what a strange statement!
It was said with a different intention. In tradition during chanting, if a Sishya approaches the guru for meaning, the Guru will tell him first learn vyAkaraNa and then come back before discussing meaning. Even then, it is the guru as adhikAri who is the holder of meaning. siShya's attitude and chanting perfection is tested before meaning is discussed.

Now as to music: So what you hear is the ring of their sound , i.e. svarams used. That is not the reason for me to link language to music. There is the chanda part. And the actual physicial counts there also is irrelevant to today's music , in fact even the few svaras have made it into music more than the chandas. It is the principle behind the chandas and how it was observed with reverence is what is relevant to all music.

The rhythmic system in it's formulation shows that sanskriti in both systems of music. And that is also transcended as musicians just don't sing to tALA as well as percussions don't just play to it.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 No language or words or even letters can be equated with music.
Language as a means of communication is certainly important during military conquests and in administration - where the latter is just a continuation of the former. All administrative hierarchies, are patterned on ideas from military chain of command and modern corporate style reflects that as well!

Obviously marxists will be interested in this aspect of language - there also I guess language is one thing (syntax) and communication is something else!

In peace time, even the armies celebrate with marching bands and kings listened to poets. So language as an expression of joy where it is indistinguishable from music is of no interest to Marxists. They are obsessed with "power" will see it as a stolen item for fusing with music!

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@43->Nay!..Why 'honourary?' . The Vaishanavas will gladly grant 'prime leadership' to Ilango Adikal. for the entire passage in Maduraikkaandam.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

@44-> Does not make any sense. @45-> totally uncalled for and irrelevant. I am a staunch Nehruvian and of course a Maexist WITHIN nehruji's perception. . I cannot even agree to disagree with you. Bye.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 18 Jan 2018, 16:33 @43->Nay!..Why 'honourary?' . The Vaishanavas will gladly grant 'prime leadership' to Ilango Adikal. for the entire passage in Maduraikkaandam.
The vaishnavAs of today revere SrI vEdanta dESika so much that, they claim if he had not fenced their siddhAntAs well enough, SrI Appayya dIkshita might have grazed into their territory! So there is lot more than what might be in some passage! :)

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Even the contrary is true. If not for Kumara Thathacharyar, Apppaya Deekshithar would have bagged many converts.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 17 Jan 2018, 21:43 To better understand this, it will be good to think of music as instrumental music. especially venuganam. .very likely to have been the originator of ragam concept and experience.
Music advances with invention or discovery of newer and newer instruments of course ;) :lol: Sorry Udhay - I had to use that punch.

Nice to read: http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 352922.ece

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

Saint Ramanuja lived during the all-powerful reign of Chola Emperor Kulotthunga. and he preached caste-equality from the towers of Thirukkoshtiyoor. in Sivaganga district. ( later -sivagangai zamin). Barathy has wriiten a moving piece about Ramanuja and his disciple who got his eyes plucked out by the monarch ( thinking that it was Ramanuja). The year was around 1100. AD. Chola power declined and later day Pandyan empire flourished. but due to fight for succession rights, one of the Pandyan claimants to the throne , sought the help of Sultan Khilji of Delhi. ( topical,,,as there is a justifiable protest against the slander of Chitoor Rani Padhmini in a recent film).Malik Kafur invaded Srirangam and looted the wealth. The occupation lasted for 12 years. Vedantha Desika was living in Srirangam when this happened. Over now to some excerpts. from a web article on Vedantha desikan. "
====================================================================================
"In the year 1327, Srirangam city was invaded by Malik kafur the General of Allauddin,
Fear gripped in the minds of every one and they were afraid how to preserve the glory of the temple. It was decided that Swami desika will travel to Karnataka along with the manuscripts of Sri Bhashya commentry along with the sons of Sri Sudarshana bhattar, a great acharya who wrote commentry for Sri Bashya. Other acharyas left to Thiruppathi with the idol of Ranganatha. The temple was closed and many bhagavathas were killed by the brutal invaders and even Swami desika had to hide among the corpses (dead bodies) for one night before travelling to Karnataka.
After 12 years when the invaders were thrown out of Srirangam Swami desika came back to Srirangam.
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"Swami came to srirangam and it was time for yearly utsavams when the entire divya prabandham will be recited in 20 days. The first ten days the utsavam is in the day and the next 10 days in the night. Since this utsavam was stopped for many years due to invasion, the orthodox people objected to recitation of Divya prabandham since it is in Tamil and only Sanskrit vedas should be recited. They also objected to install vigrahas of Azhvars because they were just human beings and many of them were not even Brahmins. ( such thoughts seem to persist.. !)

Swami desika argued with them at length proving that the divya prabandham is nothing but the essence of Vedas and Upanishads and the Azhvars are great devotees of Sriman Narayana and they are fit to be worshipped in side the temple.

Finally the orthodox devotees agreed with Sri Desika and the utsavam has been celebrated in a grand manner. Swami was pained to see the objections and to make sure no such problems in the future he has got the details of the utsavam written in a stone and installed in the temple. Sri Ranganatha was pleased with this and commended that the Thaniyan glorifying swami desika “Ramanuja daya patram..” should be recited every day in the temple before starting the prabandham recitation
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Swami desika went on a pilgrammage to South and visited many divya desams in Kerala and Madurai and while he was at Srivilliputtur he has composed the famous Godha sthuthi. Swami had special bhakthi to Andal and this stotram glorifies Andal.She has commended that this stotra should be recited during her utsavam along with divya prabandham
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shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Here is a video of an upanyasam that covers the story - for those [Ahem!] who want Audio - as that is the new googlashion or amazashion!

Hey Alexa! (or Hey Cortana!, if you are Microsoftist) , please narrate me the story of Srirangam in 14th Century!! :lol: :lol:

Alexa or Cortana uvAca :lol: :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbuvzSyNpw

The cooperation between the Acharyas of different sects during the event is mentioned. That is now twisted by Marxists and Dravidianists , as ganging up against external enemy - when there was otherwise internal strife!

Truth is, all persuasion of those that disagree, were by using arguments and not force or rice bag!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appayya_Dikshita
He wrote the Chatur-mata-sara to illustrate the philosophical thoughts of the four prominent schools of interpretation of Brahma sutras. The Naya-manjari deals with advaita, the Naya-mani-mala with Srikanta mata, the Naya-mayukha-malika with Ramanuja's philosophy, and the Naya-muktavali with Madhva's philosophy. His remarkable outlook, his thoroughness in writing, his impartiality, his unerring sense of values, and his concern for truth are all so evident in these writings that the Vaishnavas have adopted the Naya-Mayukha-Malika as their manual for study.

The outsider's concept of Unity is different! That needs to be understood.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

this is from a collection of essays by Barathy. ( pardon me for the thamizh quote in this section. I will give a rough translation " இன்று ராமானுஜ தர்சனம் முக்கிய ஹிந்து தர்சனங்களில் ஒன்றாக விளங்குகிறது . ஆனால் ஆரம்பத்தில் அப்படியில்லை. ராமானுஜ மதத்தைக் காக்கும் பொருட்டு ராமானுஜரின் முக்கிய சிஷ்யராகிய கூரத்தாழ்வான் கண்களை பறிகொடுக்கும்படியாக நேரிட்டது. இவருடன் பெரிய நம்பி என்ற யோகிக்கும் அதே தண்டனை ஏற்பட்டது. பெரிய நம்பி அப்போது கிழவர். கங்கைகொண்ட சோழபுரத்தில், ஒரு கொல்லையிலே பெரிய நம்பி கண் போன வேதனையை பொறுக்கமாட்டாமல் பக்கத்தில்
வேண்டியவர்கள் எவரும் இல்லாமல் , கூரத்தாழ்வான் மடியில் படுத்துக்கொண்டு மஹா சந்தோஷத்துடன் உயிர் துறந்தார்.
கூரத்தாழ்வானோ ,'தரிசனத்துக்காக தரிசனத்தை இழந்தேன் .அது எனக்கு பெரிய பாக்கியம் என்று மகிழ்ச்சி கொண்டாடினார். தம்முடைய கொள்கை நிலை பெரும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை அவர்கள் மனதில் உறுதியாக இருந்தது. "

===========================
(rough translation) Ramanuja 'dharsanam', is in the present times, one of important hindu dharsans. But, it was not so in its early phase.To protect the Ramanuja religion, Kooratthaazhvaan, one of the prime disciples of Ramanuja had to lose his eyes.The same punishment was meted to a yogi named 'Periya Nambi'. Periya Nambi was then a very old man. Periya Nambi, died on the laps of Kooratthaazhvan, without any one near and dear to him, by his side, , with great happiness , though feeling great pain of losing his eyes. As for Kooratthaazhvaan , he was happy and felt it a blessing that he lost his ' external sight' for his real dharsan ( interhnal sight). They had tremendous faith that their principles will gain victory ultimately.
Last edited by RSR on 20 Jan 2018, 22:15, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

We don't need to wait for Bharathy. As early as Kamban, upanyasakas narrate how he addressed the fight between vIra saivAs and vIra vaishnavAs. But do vaishnavaites today build on some atrocity against one of their preceptors and make it central of some theology? Did they go after a large section of population with any such narrative? Nobody's world is as vaibhavic as theirs!

You see the evidence as early as 16th century. To attribute this as ganging up against some external enemy is unfounded.

Our history/collective memory has not spared of high handedness of monarchs and the powerful since the time of ithihAs. cilappadikAram's one of the main themes is kodungONmai! dana nandAs high handedness led to Chanakya and Mauryan's high handedness led to Shunga dynasty.

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2018 ... hunga.html

And lets treat the invasions during 13th - 15th as politically motivated, abetted by political bickering of resident kings - as the historians would like to have it for Indians. But then any critique is now painted as against some community or other! Can we address that?

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

That vaishnavism is also a localized cosmology is borne out of deity names that are different in each divya dESam. svAmi has a different name and tAyAr as well! To find a tAyAr named as mahAlakshmi one has to try very hard or head to Mumbai!
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Jan 2018, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Prominent Dikshitar in each of the recent centuries ( From Srivatsa Jayarama Sarma's discourse):

16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
18th and 19th - Sri MuttusvAmi dIkshitar
20th - Sri AnantarAma dIkshitar

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Why not Subbarama Dikshitar, who is arguably the father of Carnatic Musicology?

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Yes he is definitely a star in the annals of music. Thanks for pointing out. It straightens the list. But there may be others who, I am not recalling, who are prominent to people!

16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
18th - Sri MuttusvAmi dIkshitar
19th - Sri Subbarama dIkshitar
20th - Sri AnantarAma dIkshitar

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 11:03 16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
My paternal side, natives of Paalaamadai near Tirunelveli, is said to be descended from Appaya/ NilakanTa Dikshithar. AFAIK, family folklore has it that Appaya had no children and the family traditionally traces its lineage back to one NilakanTa who was a minister in the Tirumalai Nayakan (?) court. Sri N Ramesan's book on Appaya has a pull out plate with a chart tracing the lineage until my grandfather P N Sankara Iyer and his brother P N Subbier, the P of course standing for Paalaamadai.

So the above 17th century NilakanTa was different ? To take a 20th century parallel, my paternal family is full of Sankaras and NilakanTas (no points for guessing that the N in my grandfather's initials stands for Nitrogen).

As a footnote, given my proclivity towards consuming pappaya, my wife thinks I should be named Pappaya Dikshithar.

arasi
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by arasi »

She is 'always evolving'--in humor too :)
Nitrogen Pappayya! Solomon Pappayya, beware!
Impressive lineage by the way, Uday--just as she has her illustrious kathA virpannars :)
And all these years, I thought you were from the tanjAvUr soil, fellow nellai sImai (T.Veli) born!

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

arasi wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 22:46 Fellow nellai sImai (T.Veli) born!
Well I'm just Madras born and Bangalore and Madras raised and the only connection to Paalamadai is a handful of visits and a supposed ancestral home... And all the mails I get for donations towards samadhis, temples, consecrations, etc...

rajeshnat
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by rajeshnat »

uday_shankar wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 22:22 AFAIK, family folklore has it that Appaya had no children
Uday,
Appaya dikshitar was married and had two daughters. Check below link
http://www.dlshq.org/saints/appayya.htm

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

Rajesh, Oh OK. I guess they only trace male lineage in this patriarchal culture... N Ramesan's charts also end at female nodes ! So Appaya's brother NIlakanTha had sons...

In "Indian tradition" 2x = 0

harimau
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

uday_shankar wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 10:12 Rajesh, Oh OK. I guess they only trace male lineage in this patriarchal culture... N Ramesan's charts also end at female nodes !
The reason for maintaining a family genealogy is only for invoking one's ancestors up to one's paternal great grandfather (and great grandmother) during the annual shraddha ritual.

Most families don't write down the genealogy trusting the names of the ancestors to memory.

It is rare that anyone knows his ancestors beyond 4 generations.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

And names of both male and female are recalled.

Sumangali prarthanai is done separately by ladies!

The matrilineal society also existed and gave us all the arts! If chandas were preserved by the patriarchy, rAgAs were created and preserved by the matriarchy and to this day even the rAgAs explored by the trinity cannot rival them!

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#59->
"My paternal side, natives of Paalaamadai near Tirunelveli, is said to be descended from Appaya/ NilakanTa Dikshithar.
For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
I was told that Sri.PPSSastri , was a Sanskrit professor in Madras Unicersity from Palamadai. Is that correct information?

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

harimau wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 21:45 It is rare that anyone knows his ancestors beyond 4 generations.
True...
In the 70's Shri N Ramesan a distinguished IAS officer (one of India's earliest ones after independence) of the scholarly old school kind, used the tools of that time at his disposal to try to trace the descendants of the dikshithars for his biographical book on Appaya. I do know he was in touch with my chittappa and other relatives.
RSR wrote: 25 Jan 2018, 23:21 For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
I was told that Sri.PPSSastri , was a Sanskrit professor in Madras Unicersity from Palamadai. Is that correct information?
I can confirm after checking with my mum that indeed Shri PPS Sastri was from Paalaamadai.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 25 Jan 2018, 23:21 For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
On a related note: Again from Srivatsa Jayarama Sarma's discourse - Narayaneeyam @ Ayodhya Mandapam around 1992/93: The 59th SRngEri Acharya, HH. Sri Abhinava Vidya tIRtha , a parama advaiti as Sri Sarma referred to him, would tell people to conduct rAdha kalyANams!

My vEdam teacher, a professor, had to stop learning from his Guru - another professor, for having left the country for training. It was years later after the Acharya gave permission that he was called back to continue the studies!

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

RSR wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 22:28#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?
Question 1: Yes.
Question 2: Name is Palamadai P Subramania Sastry. Don't know what the other P stands for...his father's name presumably ? (in this era of caps-free typing, not to be mistaken that I'm implying the name is "Palamadai Presumably Subramania Sastry" :lol:)

harimau
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 23:33
RSR wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 22:28#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?
Question 1: Yes.
Question 2: Name is Palamadai P Subramania Sastry. Don't know what the other P stands for...his father's name presumably ? (in this era of caps-free typing, not to be mistaken that I'm implying the name is "Palamadai Presumably Subramania Sastry" :lol:)
The name is "Presumably Palamadai Subramania Sastry"😈😁

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...your relatives may be able to clarify. May I have more details about the close relatives and their children of Prof.PPS Sastry? ..Do you know anybody by the name Krishnan from that village? He must be around 60 now. Was with General Electric. I wish that people who migrated to cities and abroad, return to their native village. and bring back the old traditions of scholarship and devotion, to the 'deserted village'

harimau
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

RSR wrote: 06 Feb 2018, 13:05 #70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...
"Panchapakesan" would be unusual outside Tanjore district.

"Pranatharthiharan" would be found in Tanjore as well as in Palghat where a good number of migrants from Tanjore district settled but almost nowhere else.

uday_shankar
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

RSR wrote: 06 Feb 2018, 13:05#70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...your relatives may be able to clarify. May I have more details about the close relatives and their children of Prof.PPS Sastry? ..Do you know anybody by the name Krishnan from that village? He must be around 60 now. Was with General Electric. I wish that people who migrated to cities and abroad, return to their native village. and bring back the old traditions of scholarship and devotion, to the 'deserted village'
I'm way out of my depth or curiosity here but I'll keep your PPS Sastry investigation in the back of my mind and send you personal email if I find out anything more as and when I meet relatives. No point filling up public fora with obscure information.

srini_pichumani
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Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by srini_pichumani »

There are at least 3 scholars with the name Subrahmanya Sastri -- I have a nodding acquaintance with the other two but this PPSS seems to be

Palamadai Pichumani Subrahmanya Sastri --> Curator of GOML, and Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, Presidency College, Madras

The other two are

P S Subrahmanya Sastri, whose works on the grammatical theories in Tamil and Sanskrit are well known.

and

S Subrahmanya Sastri, who edited/published various texts of Vedanta/Tantra and the musicological text Samgraha Chudamani of Govinda for the Adyar Research Library.

Best regards,
-Srini.

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