Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
RSR
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#51 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

Saint Ramanuja lived during the all-powerful reign of Chola Emperor Kulotthunga. and he preached caste-equality from the towers of Thirukkoshtiyoor. in Sivaganga district. ( later -sivagangai zamin). Barathy has wriiten a moving piece about Ramanuja and his disciple who got his eyes plucked out by the monarch ( thinking that it was Ramanuja). The year was around 1100. AD. Chola power declined and later day Pandyan empire flourished. but due to fight for succession rights, one of the Pandyan claimants to the throne , sought the help of Sultan Khilji of Delhi. ( topical,,,as there is a justifiable protest against the slander of Chitoor Rani Padhmini in a recent film).Malik Kafur invaded Srirangam and looted the wealth. The occupation lasted for 12 years. Vedantha Desika was living in Srirangam when this happened. Over now to some excerpts. from a web article on Vedantha desikan. "
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"In the year 1327, Srirangam city was invaded by Malik kafur the General of Allauddin,
Fear gripped in the minds of every one and they were afraid how to preserve the glory of the temple. It was decided that Swami desika will travel to Karnataka along with the manuscripts of Sri Bhashya commentry along with the sons of Sri Sudarshana bhattar, a great acharya who wrote commentry for Sri Bashya. Other acharyas left to Thiruppathi with the idol of Ranganatha. The temple was closed and many bhagavathas were killed by the brutal invaders and even Swami desika had to hide among the corpses (dead bodies) for one night before travelling to Karnataka.
After 12 years when the invaders were thrown out of Srirangam Swami desika came back to Srirangam.
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"Swami came to srirangam and it was time for yearly utsavams when the entire divya prabandham will be recited in 20 days. The first ten days the utsavam is in the day and the next 10 days in the night. Since this utsavam was stopped for many years due to invasion, the orthodox people objected to recitation of Divya prabandham since it is in Tamil and only Sanskrit vedas should be recited. They also objected to install vigrahas of Azhvars because they were just human beings and many of them were not even Brahmins. ( such thoughts seem to persist.. !)

Swami desika argued with them at length proving that the divya prabandham is nothing but the essence of Vedas and Upanishads and the Azhvars are great devotees of Sriman Narayana and they are fit to be worshipped in side the temple.

Finally the orthodox devotees agreed with Sri Desika and the utsavam has been celebrated in a grand manner. Swami was pained to see the objections and to make sure no such problems in the future he has got the details of the utsavam written in a stone and installed in the temple. Sri Ranganatha was pleased with this and commended that the Thaniyan glorifying swami desika “Ramanuja daya patram..” should be recited every day in the temple before starting the prabandham recitation
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Swami desika went on a pilgrammage to South and visited many divya desams in Kerala and Madurai and while he was at Srivilliputtur he has composed the famous Godha sthuthi. Swami had special bhakthi to Andal and this stotram glorifies Andal.She has commended that this stotra should be recited during her utsavam along with divya prabandham
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shankarank
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#52 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Here is a video of an upanyasam that covers the story - for those [Ahem!] who want Audio - as that is the new googlashion or amazashion!

Hey Alexa! (or Hey Cortana!, if you are Microsoftist) , please narrate me the story of Srirangam in 14th Century!! :lol: :lol:

Alexa or Cortana uvAca :lol: :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbuvzSyNpw

The cooperation between the Acharyas of different sects during the event is mentioned. That is now twisted by Marxists and Dravidianists , as ganging up against external enemy - when there was otherwise internal strife!

Truth is, all persuasion of those that disagree, were by using arguments and not force or rice bag!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appayya_Dikshita
He wrote the Chatur-mata-sara to illustrate the philosophical thoughts of the four prominent schools of interpretation of Brahma sutras. The Naya-manjari deals with advaita, the Naya-mani-mala with Srikanta mata, the Naya-mayukha-malika with Ramanuja's philosophy, and the Naya-muktavali with Madhva's philosophy. His remarkable outlook, his thoroughness in writing, his impartiality, his unerring sense of values, and his concern for truth are all so evident in these writings that the Vaishnavas have adopted the Naya-Mayukha-Malika as their manual for study.

The outsider's concept of Unity is different! That needs to be understood.

RSR
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#53 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

this is from a collection of essays by Barathy. ( pardon me for the thamizh quote in this section. I will give a rough translation " இன்று ராமானுஜ தர்சனம் முக்கிய ஹிந்து தர்சனங்களில் ஒன்றாக விளங்குகிறது . ஆனால் ஆரம்பத்தில் அப்படியில்லை. ராமானுஜ மதத்தைக் காக்கும் பொருட்டு ராமானுஜரின் முக்கிய சிஷ்யராகிய கூரத்தாழ்வான் கண்களை பறிகொடுக்கும்படியாக நேரிட்டது. இவருடன் பெரிய நம்பி என்ற யோகிக்கும் அதே தண்டனை ஏற்பட்டது. பெரிய நம்பி அப்போது கிழவர். கங்கைகொண்ட சோழபுரத்தில், ஒரு கொல்லையிலே பெரிய நம்பி கண் போன வேதனையை பொறுக்கமாட்டாமல் பக்கத்தில்
வேண்டியவர்கள் எவரும் இல்லாமல் , கூரத்தாழ்வான் மடியில் படுத்துக்கொண்டு மஹா சந்தோஷத்துடன் உயிர் துறந்தார்.
கூரத்தாழ்வானோ ,'தரிசனத்துக்காக தரிசனத்தை இழந்தேன் .அது எனக்கு பெரிய பாக்கியம் என்று மகிழ்ச்சி கொண்டாடினார். தம்முடைய கொள்கை நிலை பெரும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை அவர்கள் மனதில் உறுதியாக இருந்தது. "

===========================
(rough translation) Ramanuja 'dharsanam', is in the present times, one of important hindu dharsans. But, it was not so in its early phase.To protect the Ramanuja religion, Kooratthaazhvaan, one of the prime disciples of Ramanuja had to lose his eyes.The same punishment was meted to a yogi named 'Periya Nambi'. Periya Nambi was then a very old man. Periya Nambi, died on the laps of Kooratthaazhvan, without any one near and dear to him, by his side, , with great happiness , though feeling great pain of losing his eyes. As for Kooratthaazhvaan , he was happy and felt it a blessing that he lost his ' external sight' for his real dharsan ( interhnal sight). They had tremendous faith that their principles will gain victory ultimately.
Last edited by RSR on 20 Jan 2018, 22:15, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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#54 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

We don't need to wait for Bharathy. As early as Kamban, upanyasakas narrate how he addressed the fight between vIra saivAs and vIra vaishnavAs. But do vaishnavaites today build on some atrocity against one of their preceptors and make it central of some theology? Did they go after a large section of population with any such narrative? Nobody's world is as vaibhavic as theirs!

You see the evidence as early as 16th century. To attribute this as ganging up against some external enemy is unfounded.

Our history/collective memory has not spared of high handedness of monarchs and the powerful since the time of ithihAs. cilappadikAram's one of the main themes is kodungONmai! dana nandAs high handedness led to Chanakya and Mauryan's high handedness led to Shunga dynasty.

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2018 ... hunga.html

And lets treat the invasions during 13th - 15th as politically motivated, abetted by political bickering of resident kings - as the historians would like to have it for Indians. But then any critique is now painted as against some community or other! Can we address that?

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#55 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

That vaishnavism is also a localized cosmology is borne out of deity names that are different in each divya dESam. svAmi has a different name and tAyAr as well! To find a tAyAr named as mahAlakshmi one has to try very hard or head to Mumbai!
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Jan 2018, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

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#56 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Prominent Dikshitar in each of the recent centuries ( From Srivatsa Jayarama Sarma's discourse):

16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
18th and 19th - Sri MuttusvAmi dIkshitar
20th - Sri AnantarAma dIkshitar

vijay.siddharth
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#57 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Why not Subbarama Dikshitar, who is arguably the father of Carnatic Musicology?

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#58 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

Yes he is definitely a star in the annals of music. Thanks for pointing out. It straightens the list. But there may be others who, I am not recalling, who are prominent to people!

16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
18th - Sri MuttusvAmi dIkshitar
19th - Sri Subbarama dIkshitar
20th - Sri AnantarAma dIkshitar

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#59 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 11:03 16th - Sri Appayya dIkshitar
17th - Sri NIlakanTa dIkshitar
My paternal side, natives of Paalaamadai near Tirunelveli, is said to be descended from Appaya/ NilakanTa Dikshithar. AFAIK, family folklore has it that Appaya had no children and the family traditionally traces its lineage back to one NilakanTa who was a minister in the Tirumalai Nayakan (?) court. Sri N Ramesan's book on Appaya has a pull out plate with a chart tracing the lineage until my grandfather P N Sankara Iyer and his brother P N Subbier, the P of course standing for Paalaamadai.

So the above 17th century NilakanTa was different ? To take a 20th century parallel, my paternal family is full of Sankaras and NilakanTas (no points for guessing that the N in my grandfather's initials stands for Nitrogen).

As a footnote, given my proclivity towards consuming pappaya, my wife thinks I should be named Pappaya Dikshithar.

arasi
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#60 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by arasi »

She is 'always evolving'--in humor too :)
Nitrogen Pappayya! Solomon Pappayya, beware!
Impressive lineage by the way, Uday--just as she has her illustrious kathA virpannars :)
And all these years, I thought you were from the tanjAvUr soil, fellow nellai sImai (T.Veli) born!

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#61 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

arasi wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 22:46 Fellow nellai sImai (T.Veli) born!
Well I'm just Madras born and Bangalore and Madras raised and the only connection to Paalamadai is a handful of visits and a supposed ancestral home... And all the mails I get for donations towards samadhis, temples, consecrations, etc...

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#62 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by rajeshnat »

uday_shankar wrote: 23 Jan 2018, 22:22 AFAIK, family folklore has it that Appaya had no children
Uday,
Appaya dikshitar was married and had two daughters. Check below link
http://www.dlshq.org/saints/appayya.htm

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#63 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

Rajesh, Oh OK. I guess they only trace male lineage in this patriarchal culture... N Ramesan's charts also end at female nodes ! So Appaya's brother NIlakanTha had sons...

In "Indian tradition" 2x = 0

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#64 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

uday_shankar wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 10:12 Rajesh, Oh OK. I guess they only trace male lineage in this patriarchal culture... N Ramesan's charts also end at female nodes !
The reason for maintaining a family genealogy is only for invoking one's ancestors up to one's paternal great grandfather (and great grandmother) during the annual shraddha ritual.

Most families don't write down the genealogy trusting the names of the ancestors to memory.

It is rare that anyone knows his ancestors beyond 4 generations.

shankarank
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#65 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

And names of both male and female are recalled.

Sumangali prarthanai is done separately by ladies!

The matrilineal society also existed and gave us all the arts! If chandas were preserved by the patriarchy, rAgAs were created and preserved by the matriarchy and to this day even the rAgAs explored by the trinity cannot rival them!

RSR
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#66 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#59->
"My paternal side, natives of Paalaamadai near Tirunelveli, is said to be descended from Appaya/ NilakanTa Dikshithar.
For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
I was told that Sri.PPSSastri , was a Sanskrit professor in Madras Unicersity from Palamadai. Is that correct information?

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#67 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

harimau wrote: 24 Jan 2018, 21:45 It is rare that anyone knows his ancestors beyond 4 generations.
True...
In the 70's Shri N Ramesan a distinguished IAS officer (one of India's earliest ones after independence) of the scholarly old school kind, used the tools of that time at his disposal to try to trace the descendants of the dikshithars for his biographical book on Appaya. I do know he was in touch with my chittappa and other relatives.
RSR wrote: 25 Jan 2018, 23:21 For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
I was told that Sri.PPSSastri , was a Sanskrit professor in Madras Unicersity from Palamadai. Is that correct information?
I can confirm after checking with my mum that indeed Shri PPS Sastri was from Paalaamadai.

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#68 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 25 Jan 2018, 23:21 For Palamadai connections. this link may be of interest.
https://radsarma.wordpress.com/palamadai/
On a related note: Again from Srivatsa Jayarama Sarma's discourse - Narayaneeyam @ Ayodhya Mandapam around 1992/93: The 59th SRngEri Acharya, HH. Sri Abhinava Vidya tIRtha , a parama advaiti as Sri Sarma referred to him, would tell people to conduct rAdha kalyANams!

My vEdam teacher, a professor, had to stop learning from his Guru - another professor, for having left the country for training. It was years later after the Acharya gave permission that he was called back to continue the studies!

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#69 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?

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#70 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

RSR wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 22:28#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?
Question 1: Yes.
Question 2: Name is Palamadai P Subramania Sastry. Don't know what the other P stands for...his father's name presumably ? (in this era of caps-free typing, not to be mistaken that I'm implying the name is "Palamadai Presumably Subramania Sastry" :lol:)

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#71 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

uday_shankar wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 23:33
RSR wrote: 05 Feb 2018, 22:28#67-> Am I to understand that Sri.PPS Sastry was indeed from Palamadai? May I know the expansion for the initials?
Question 1: Yes.
Question 2: Name is Palamadai P Subramania Sastry. Don't know what the other P stands for...his father's name presumably ? (in this era of caps-free typing, not to be mistaken that I'm implying the name is "Palamadai Presumably Subramania Sastry" :lol:)
The name is "Presumably Palamadai Subramania Sastry"😈😁

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#72 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

#70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...your relatives may be able to clarify. May I have more details about the close relatives and their children of Prof.PPS Sastry? ..Do you know anybody by the name Krishnan from that village? He must be around 60 now. Was with General Electric. I wish that people who migrated to cities and abroad, return to their native village. and bring back the old traditions of scholarship and devotion, to the 'deserted village'

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#73 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by harimau »

RSR wrote: 06 Feb 2018, 13:05 #70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...
"Panchapakesan" would be unusual outside Tanjore district.

"Pranatharthiharan" would be found in Tanjore as well as in Palghat where a good number of migrants from Tanjore district settled but almost nowhere else.

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#74 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

RSR wrote: 06 Feb 2018, 13:05#70-> palamadai panchapakesa subramanya sastry'?...your relatives may be able to clarify. May I have more details about the close relatives and their children of Prof.PPS Sastry? ..Do you know anybody by the name Krishnan from that village? He must be around 60 now. Was with General Electric. I wish that people who migrated to cities and abroad, return to their native village. and bring back the old traditions of scholarship and devotion, to the 'deserted village'
I'm way out of my depth or curiosity here but I'll keep your PPS Sastry investigation in the back of my mind and send you personal email if I find out anything more as and when I meet relatives. No point filling up public fora with obscure information.

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#75 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by srini_pichumani »

There are at least 3 scholars with the name Subrahmanya Sastri -- I have a nodding acquaintance with the other two but this PPSS seems to be

Palamadai Pichumani Subrahmanya Sastri --> Curator of GOML, and Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, Presidency College, Madras

The other two are

P S Subrahmanya Sastri, whose works on the grammatical theories in Tamil and Sanskrit are well known.

and

S Subrahmanya Sastri, who edited/published various texts of Vedanta/Tantra and the musicological text Samgraha Chudamani of Govinda for the Adyar Research Library.

Best regards,
-Srini.

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#76 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by uday_shankar »

srini_pichumani wrote: 07 Feb 2018, 03:56Palamadai Pichumani Subrahmanya Sastri --> Curator of GOML, and Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, Presidency College, Madras
All the facts add up but I sense a pinch of personal mischief as regards the emboldened part, capitalizing on others' ignorance :lol:.

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#77 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RSR »

srini_pichumani » 07 Feb 2018, 03:56
Palamadai Pichumani Subrahmanya Sastri --> Curator of GOML, and Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, Presidency College, Madras

Thank you Srini-.Pichumani.. The information tallies. I was under the impression that he was Professor in University of Madras. while the correct info is that he was Prof of Sanskrit in Presidency College.
-------------This thread is about Thyagaraja Swami and his devotion to Lord Rama and the diversion occurred because of bringing in Appyya Dhikshithar, which could have been initiated in a different thread .and personal reminiscences .
Any way, it gave an opportunity to get correct information about a very eminent scholar of recent times. Thank you.

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#78 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 20 Jan 2018, 15:40 this is from a collection of essays by Barathy. ( pardon me for the thamizh quote in this section. I will give a rough translation " இன்று ராமானுஜ தர்சனம் முக்கிய ஹிந்து தர்சனங்களில் ஒன்றாக விளங்குகிறது . ஆனால் ஆரம்பத்தில் அப்படியில்லை. ராமானுஜ மதத்தைக் காக்கும் பொருட்டு ராமானுஜரின் முக்கிய சிஷ்யராகிய கூரத்தாழ்வான் கண்களை பறிகொடுக்கும்படியாக நேரிட்டது. இவருடன் பெரிய நம்பி என்ற யோகிக்கும் அதே தண்டனை ஏற்பட்டது. பெரிய நம்பி அப்போது கிழவர். கங்கைகொண்ட சோழபுரத்தில், ஒரு கொல்லையிலே பெரிய நம்பி கண் போன வேதனையை பொறுக்கமாட்டாமல் பக்கத்தில்
வேண்டியவர்கள் எவரும் இல்லாமல் , கூரத்தாழ்வான் மடியில் படுத்துக்கொண்டு மஹா சந்தோஷத்துடன் உயிர் துறந்தார்.
கூரத்தாழ்வானோ ,'தரிசனத்துக்காக தரிசனத்தை இழந்தேன் .அது எனக்கு பெரிய பாக்கியம் என்று மகிழ்ச்சி கொண்டாடினார். தம்முடைய கொள்கை நிலை பெரும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை அவர்கள் மனதில் உறுதியாக இருந்தது. "

===========================
(rough translation) Ramanuja 'dharsanam', is in the present times, one of important hindu dharsans. But, it was not so in its early phase.To protect the Ramanuja religion, Kooratthaazhvaan, one of the prime disciples of Ramanuja had to lose his eyes.The same punishment was meted to a yogi named 'Periya Nambi'. Periya Nambi was then a very old man. Periya Nambi, died on the laps of Kooratthaazhvan, without any one near and dear to him, by his side, , with great happiness , though feeling great pain of losing his eyes. As for Kooratthaazhvaan , he was happy and felt it a blessing that he lost his ' external sight' for his real dharsan ( interhnal sight). They had tremendous faith that their principles will gain victory ultimately.
https://twitter.com/jayasartn/status/10 ... 6145378305

This twitter line proves the penchance for atrocity literature by historians , exposed by a scholar!

vgovindan
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#79 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by vgovindan »

Emi jEsitEnEmi SrI rAmasvAmi karuNa lEnivAru ilalO?

We can write a thousand pages on him; we can argue endlessly. But, of what avail if one fails to see the yearning; if we are stymied unable to transcend our egocentricity?

tyAgarAja's kRtis are actually his autobiography. Anyone who wants pick dirt from confessionary statements, all for the sake of few rupees, surely has not understood him.

There was an 'intellectual ' of Karnataka who boasted that he, as a boy, urinated on the roadside vignESvara mUrti and nothing happened to him. Obviously God is in the person urinating also - it is his own self abhishekam. So also we can make tyAgarAja a villain or hero - he has gone beyond such pettinesses. Whoever 'named' him 'saint'? He is beyond the sainthood or sinner. We are trying to impose on him all our prides and prejudices - maybe you can accuse me too for the same.

Is music simply aesthetics? It pains.


http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

shankarank
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#80 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by shankarank »

No one can dispute or argue with what you are trying to say as regards yearning! Because that is not something for public debate. There is nothing to debate with there!

And also such a discourse , I am not saying it should be kept private either. Only that it does belong in the sadas of seekers who come with that attitude.

And since you talked about understanding tyAgaraja, if people make statements without even noticing the simple facts ( like the ENTER key in the keyboard!) , then it is important to point that out, especially if the statements are subversive, dangerous and causes false public narratives.

And we are paying for it too, with the tax money.

So much was made out of the inability to perform neraval on "kAma mOha dAsulai" with a SrI rAmuni ending because it hurts religious sentiments, affecting artistic creativity. They have lumped rasikas into the silly spectre of book and movie bans, that hurt religious sentiments, into this and rasika behaviour also lends credence to that.

But a true vidvAn will know that, sacredness of music is not just the human created language interpretation and the subsequent "so called" religious feeling and affiliation. Rather it is much before that. Music is ab initio sacred and so are the components of sound leading to language formation.

That doesn't absolve a vidvAn from being aware of culture and if an objection is raised he/she will have to introspect and find the right way out , like an alternate expression of the same line : kAma mOha dAsulai kaTTu teliyalEni or simply teliyalEni.

As regards your statement on "is music only aesthetics?" , Lets say it is presumed so for argument sake. Then these fellows cannot be allowed trumpet around the West imposed notion that music is the 7 notes and then add oscillations to it to complete the picture.

Either even sing ignorantly ( music is sacred) and get by or if you are starting to talk, understand the full picture and then do your lecdems.

Else Shut up!

So this does not affect or in any way diminish your yearning plea!

RasikasModerator2
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#81 Re: Thyagaraja was a product of his times

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Else Shut up!
Please. Whatever your grievances are with the way the world exists, this can be avoided.

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