suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
srimugunthan
Posts: 4
Joined: 01 Jan 2018, 00:58

suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by srimugunthan »

I have only been listening to Hindustani classical and loved the tranquility and calm that the music can induce on the listener. Serenity should be the signature-identity for indian classical music and i have always wondered why I dont feel the same with Carnatic music though both forms are based on common principles proceeding from Vedic tradition.

This was until i listened to T M Krishna and i have since been a fan of his music. In one of his interviews he has mentioned T Brinda and Mukta as a major influence on his music.A few pieces by T Brinda and mukta on youtube was also very enjoyable.

I would like to know more about other musicians who specialise in slow singing. Can people suggest more musicians (probably available in youtube) who follow this style?

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1655
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by hnbhagavan »

M D Ramanathan the Greatest!

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sureshvv »

T.V.Ramaprasad is very good.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by RSR »

Most of the songs rendered by Smt.D.K.PattammaaL will satisfy the requirement.

https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs/
Kindly listen to the songs numbered 01- to 25

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by thenpaanan »

On a slight modification of the original question, one could ask _what_ slow singing happens in modern Carnatic music, i..e what form of composition even lets you or enables you to sing really slowly. If one has heard the Hindustani vilambit khayal, one would realize that even our slowest kritis are no match for the leisurely, deeply introspective nature of the bada khayal, with a meandering melodic line and minimal words.

I only realized it when my daughter learned a vilambit in Ek taal (a 12 maatra taal) at 16 beats per minute! I tried to sing it with her and it was much harder than I expected. Singing that kind of composition requires a different mindset altogether. It required depth of knowledge of the ragam that I had to struggle to sustain for even one avartanam. I finally was able to construct something similar in Carnatic which was akin to a 4-kalai pallavi. Inspired by my daughter's bAgeshri khayAl I converted the first line of sAgara shayana vibhO to a 4-kalai pallaiv style rendering with a really slow gait. It sorta worked, but in the process as they say in colloquial Tamil "bend-a nimithiduthu' (it was a workout)!

Hardly anyone sings 4-kalai pallavis anymore. The last person I heard was T K Govinda Rao and even he just sang it demonstrate the concept and quickly moved on to a sped-up version to a 2-kalai pallavi.

Some people might argue that MDR sang that slowly but if you notice what he is singing, he deliberately lets go of the kriti -- sometimes partially and sometimes entirely (when the accompanists, especially the mridangam, start wondering when he will rejoin). It was great to listen to, but MDR did it in spite of the kriti he was singing not because of it. Our kritis are not well-designed to be sung that slowly or with that economy of syllables.

I conclude that the very slow singing (at the level that we find in bada khayals) is not present in Carnatic music. One has to look elsewhere (there are other world music systems that are based on very slow singing). To be totally honest my Hindustani friends tell me that their audiences these days have no patience for vilambit either. That is a real loss.

-T

Sundara Rajan
Posts: 1081
Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 08:19

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by Sundara Rajan »

Tastes do differ. You cannot expect a California navel orange to taste like a tangerine, even though they are both oranges ! M.D. Ramanathan was an unique musician with his own approach to singing. While I am an admirer of MDR, there are many who are not so, and some actually dislike his delivery ! Unlike Hindustani music, Carnatic music is mostly presented in lyrics form.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sankark »

So, what exactly is 'viLambam'. Say if srI rAjagOpAla is a 1 Avartanam structure. If you stretch it to 2 Avartanams does that become viLambam?

The actual duration of that 1 Avartanam is irrelevant - an X. So MDR can take 8 secs and SSI may do that in 6 secs.

srikant1987
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by srikant1987 »

Padams can be quite slow, and learning and practicing a padam in Brindamma's style can present much the same challenges as a baDA khayAl can.

Singing varNams at extremely slow speeds, again, can "work out" some of the same muscles. :)

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: 29 Jan 2018, 04:54 The actual duration of that 1 Avartanam is irrelevant - an X. So MDR can take 8 secs and SSI may do that in 6 secs.
I think it is very relevant to the OP. In fact that is what he is asking. For the 8 sec people.

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by Sachi_R »

I would like to give my view to Sri srimugundan.
If you are enjoying Hindustani music, and TMK's music, great.

Most available genres/types of Carnatic music are easily accessible through
YOUTUBE
Sangeethapriya.org
Gaana,Saavn,wynk etc.

Carnatic music is essentially very different from HM in the way the music unfolds and it is presented.

I feel suggesting to you specific names or pieces of music may help very little. On your own, please explore. And if you don't like any music, it is OK... That's how it mostly works out.

Try listening to live concerts. Maybe you will get some positives.

srimugunthan
Posts: 4
Joined: 01 Jan 2018, 00:58

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by srimugunthan »

Thanks much for the suggestions (T.V.Ramaprasad, M D Ramanathan, D.K.PattammaaL)

srimugunthan
Posts: 4
Joined: 01 Jan 2018, 00:58

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by srimugunthan »

thenpaanan wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 19:48 On a slight modification of the original question, one could ask _what_ slow singing happens in modern Carnatic music, i..e what form of composition even lets you or enables you to sing really slowly. If one has heard the Hindustani vilambit khayal, one would realize that even our slowest kritis are no match for the leisurely, deeply introspective nature of the bada khayal, with a meandering melodic line and minimal words.


Some people might argue that MDR sang that slowly but if you notice what he is singing, he deliberately lets go of the kriti -- sometimes partially and sometimes entirely (when the accompanists, especially the mridangam, start wondering when he will rejoin). It was great to listen to, but MDR did it in spite of the kriti he was singing not because of it. Our kritis are not well-designed to be sung that slowly or with that economy of syllables.

I conclude that the very slow singing (at the level that we find in bada khayals) is not present in Carnatic music.
-T
I have seen this TMK’s lecture demo where he talks of the syllables and the laya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaZJSah3NyE#t=2m
Lyrics limiting vilamba kala singing in CM is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sureshvv »

TMK had a concert sometime ago with just violin accompaniment and without any percussion. I think the experiment was very successful. May be someone has a recording.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by thenpaanan »

srikant1987 wrote: 29 Jan 2018, 15:28 Padams can be quite slow, and learning and practicing a padam in Brindamma's style can present much the same challenges as a baDA khayAl can.

Singing varNams at extremely slow speeds, again, can "work out" some of the same muscles. :)
In my opinion, we _feel_ that padams are slow because of the expectation that they should be faster (perhaps because of the shringara context) but in pure speed terms I don't find them even as slow as B-M's renditions of say bAlagopAla. Perhaps I have not listened to the right padams in this respect. Can you point me?

On singing varNams at ultra slow speeds, one has created a lot of space by slowing down but not the content to fill that space. Take, for example, the viribONi varnam in slow speed (the kAmAkshi swarajati works even better). There is a certain distinct movement/gait to it at what we in Carnatic music would consider slow speed. Now if you take that rendition and halve the beats per minute to resemble a vilambit, it is no longer clear how to sing the varNam. By default one could sing it without much melodic movement by holding each note extra long but our compositions including varnams do not seem to work that way -- they require movement and one cannot stay on one note for too long or take too long to go from one note to another (MDR really stretched it more than anyone else but even that had a limit). Either due to my own limitations of knowledge or something intrinsic to the content of the ragam, I cannot stretch it past a certain point and still sound like bhairavi! The gamakams apparently have a limit to their elasticity!

-T

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 20:11 I cannot stretch it past a certain point and still sound like bhairavi!
Did you listen to the slow /fast combo rendition of bhairavi vaRNam by Thirumeignanam posted in the forum? Slowness goes back to your all familiar tone production. Breaks can be taken and silence can speak if good tone is emitted! But then that tone must be music to your ears ( or transparent to your ears ;) :lol: ) before you can process it as music. My daughter asks me to shut it off as soon as I play it :)

As regards something sounding like Bhairavi - you are too much into identities :twisted: ! அட ராகமே அதுதாங்க .( rAga is that sir!! :lol: )

இத கேளுங்க - Listen to this : https://youtu.be/sKA7DOy3bE8?t=4139 . இராகமே அங்கே செய்யப்பட்டதுதானே - (சீமான் குரலில் : நல்லா விளங்கிக்கிடனும் ! :lol: ). அதுதான் கரஹரப்ரியா :twisted: :lol: . All real rAgas are made in that context!! :geek:

விச்ராந்தின்னு அப்பவே சொன்னேன் கேக்கல! அது காலத்தில் மட்டும் அல்லாது ஸ்வரத்திலும் ( ப நி ச) வரவேண்டும் ! அசம்பூர்ணம் என்றால் தெரியுமா ? :evil:

I said viSrAnti - nobody bought it! That is not just in time but in frequency ( pa ni sa) as well!

கரஹரப்ரியாவை அவர்கள் ( நாதஸ்வரக்காரர்கள் ) விரலை வைத்து அடித்தனர் - விரலடி சங்கீதம்முன்னு சொல்லுவாங்க , இவர்கள் அதைப்பார்த்து குரலை வைத்து அடிக்கிறார்கள் . The karaharapriya as we know it: nAdasvaram artistes used their fingers to beat on it , these vocalists copied it into their voice and beat up on it.

நீ மிருதங்கம் மியூசிக் இல்லேன்னு சொன்னா , நீ பாடுவது இராகம் இல்லேன்னு சொல்ல எனக்கு எவ்வளவு நேரம் ஆகும் ! :evil:

If you say Mridangam is not music, how long does it take before I can say what you sing is not a rAGA?? :evil:

Trinity's syllables are already one too much in a given interval :ugeek: :lol: :lol: . This madyama kAla business arises then!

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by shankarank »

ஸ்பீடு எப்பிடி! Hows de speed?

https://soundcloud.com/shankar-krishna- ... rupaka-tkr

:lol: :lol:

அங்க சொல்லலே? (Did I not mention there?) :

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28841
shankarank wrote: 23 Jan 2017, 02:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_5gAo6OuVY

Abhishek was asked about purism
Same here at vEdAgama SAStra purANa https://youtu.be/q_5gAo6OuVY?t=767
- purA | Na should bring out kArvai over saShabda kriya! - as spacing is available in vEdAgama to catchup!
அந்த சங்கதி இங்கே முதல்லே மேலே இருக்கும்! That sangati is in the above first one!

எங்கியோ கேட்டோமேன்னு நினச்சேன்! இந்த டேப்புலதான் - thought I heard it somewhere - this one... :mrgreen: :lol:

அவங்க தாத்தாருதான் மிருதங்கம்!

எப்டி எப்டி ! அபிஷேக்கை விட யாரும் பாஸ்டா பாட முடியதாம் ! ரிவியூலே ஹரிகேசநல்லூர் வெங்கட்ராமன் சொல்கிறார் :roll:

WHat? nobody can sing faster than Abhishek it seems - says the review by one Harikesanallur Venkataraman! :roll: :lol:

ஒரு வேளை பழைய ஸ்பூல் டேப்ப பாஸ்டா வுட்டாங்களோ - May be the spool went a bit fast - yeah ! :lol: :lol:

MadhavRayaprolu
Posts: 63
Joined: 18 Jan 2018, 13:04

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

MS Gopalakrishnan is a great start for someone that likes HM to begin enjoying CM. I think he brings in some of the HM’s serenity into CM.

The serenity in HM comes more than its slowness I think. It is also its approach to ragam and swarams. The swaram there is a first class citizen to be enjoyed for its own sake and that brings the meditative quality. Also the ornamentation is simpler, using lots of jaarus etc. In CM, IMO, a swaram is subservient to the gamakam which in turn is subservient to the sangathi/phrase that it is part of and doesn’t usually have an independent existence. Plus there is a lot more ornamentation going on in CM so it might feel overwhelming for someone not into it. As others noted, we should appreciate each one in its own terms.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sureshvv »

MadhavRayaprolu wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 14:16 In CM, IMO, a swaram is subservient to the gamakam which in turn is subservient to the sangathi/phrase that it is part of and doesn’t usually have an independent existence.
Not necessarily. There are a number of so called "scalar" ragas which are gaining in stature :)

MadhavRayaprolu
Posts: 63
Joined: 18 Jan 2018, 13:04

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

Just to be sure, I wasn’t referring to the grammar of ragams. I was referring to the CM musicians’ aesthetics - the points in a performance when we say or feel “besh”, “aha” etc. In CM alapana, the smallest unit of enjoyment is a sangathi. While in HM the smallest unit of enjoyment is a raw note. There are exceptions of course, like the standing note on high Sa in CM. But by and large the focus is on sangathis. Even if an artist rests on a note, the point of the rest is to mark the ending of the previous phrase or begin of what is coming next, not to showcase the beauty of the note itself.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by sankark »

MadhavRayaprolu wrote: 10 Mar 2018, 21:26 While in HM the smallest unit of enjoyment is a raw note.
Taking an example, except for mA, all other swarams of bilAwal and yaman can be sung exactly the same in HM?

PS: Genuine curiosity. I am not a HM listener.

MadhavRayaprolu
Posts: 63
Joined: 18 Jan 2018, 13:04

Re: suggest musicians who specialize in vilambakala singing

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

Hmm not sure how to answer that. In Yaman, ri is usually with a jaaru from ga. Da is usually a jaaru from ni. Other notes can be flat notes. Ga and Ni also have nyasa so have longer rests. So I guess taken in isolation, an extended Sa, Ga, Pa and Ni might sound identical. But we can’t take notes in isolation isn’t it? They are in the context of a phrase which is in turn in the context of raga development. They sound different because the context is different even if the notes are sung absolutely flat. In purely mechanical terms, HM phrasing is similar to CM with the exception of longer rests and smoother, sparser gamakams.

Post Reply