Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42 Take the fabled Madurai Pushpavanam & SGK and put them in a theater the size of NGS. Would they have been audible beyond the first 10 - 20 rows?
Wo, Wo, Wo - the numbers man! Facts , data, numbers.

https://youtu.be/lQdkFRUzoTU?t=204

Ask the man, he has a way around everything! Class act!

Yup the institution he speaks to would love numbers , so it can be:
sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42 I would be happy to be proven wrong.
:lol: :lol:
sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42 Relatedly, would the gamakam richness that we observe in CM today could be the result of artificial amplification
Yup, that is his trauma, the gamaka of bEgaDa and sahAnA has not appealed to many - just like a painting would, not that the masses lines up to a painting exhibition even, but there are a plenty of elite that do , to whom as well, gamakas in bEgADa and sahAnA would not appeal yet.

Can't you see the ridiculousness of all this? gamakas of bEGaDa and sahAnA are out and out the creation of only Mylapore Brahmins, from whichever time they were empowered to pursue / support music - pick your year. Well, let me amend a bit, I am saying this to undercut some of TMK's angst, just so that he does not fret over why they have not reached the masses.

In the early 90s - again my experience can be some truth as well can it? - a bunch of us, youngsters ( from various cities working at the same place now) will seek out concerts of TNS especially with Mysore MN and MM, for the reason that they reply to his Math so well, but we have never heard or heard about the person behind the "Ms" in their names - who I was told was all sunAdam - after his death!

I heard Mali also liked T. Rukimini's accompaniment because she would "vAngi vAngi" reply his math.

And these YACMers , Mridangists included , would tell us all (off stage! actually) how kaNakku is not a big deal , it would come if you practice 4 times. They were fighting TNS era rasikatvam - the only possible earful reach of serious ones they had, as they cannot yet reach into MVS fans, or MSS fans who were still out there!

So you pick which was naturally drawn rasikatvam and which was manufactured!
sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 09:14 All the raga knowledge that even the common man once had has now atrophied
Yo! I have the memory of my home white washer in Madurai ( they had AstAna roles - i.e. same person would be called year after year!) while he was preparing "chuNNAmbu" ( the Calcium tri-carbonate whatever) with his rubber boots into a pit that he dug, would talk about S.G KiTTappA singing at 8-kaTTai - do you think he knew there was a thing called rAgam!

I mean do you guys get it at all?

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by shankarank »

Our education has corrupted us to think that discernment means we have to understand something. It only then dawns in college, when we cannot understand quantum physics, the professor starts asking what is meant by understanding! Starting from ape and trees!

குவாண்டம் மெக்கானிக்ஸ் புரியலேன்னா அப்பத்தான் ப்ரொபஸர் அண்டர்ஸ்டாண்டிங்குன்னா என்னன்னு ஆரம்பிப்பாரு. ஏப்பிலேருந்து மரத்துல தொங்கி விழர டேஞ்சருலேருந்து தப்பிச்சதெல்லாம் சொல்லுவாரு !

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 11:23 I mean do you guys get it at all?
Nope!

PS: Just speaking for myself here, but may be if you slow down even more and stick to one topic per post...

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by shankarank »

Weidman quotes Indira Menon to drive home the idea of how the perception of M.S. as a dutiful house wife when she’s not on stage and when she’s on stage as one who’s in communication with the divine, is intrinsic to how a listener relates to her music.

“As a celebrity she has moved with and played hostess to world leaders with gentle charm and dignity. At home she is the traditional housewife, stringing flower garlands for her puja room and decorating the floor with her beautiful kōlam (rice powder designs). It is on stage that she comes into her own—sensuously captivating, with an occasional lift of the eyebrow and a bewitching smile, not for the audience, but for the Divine’’
Has the author heard of the wife of the Boston Brahmin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Heinz, the heiress who is all philanthropic?
Laura Bush incident
In an interview published in USA Today in July 2004, Heinz was asked about the differences between the First Lady and herself:

"Well, you know, I don't know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in her eye, which is good. But I don't know that she's ever had a real job
The right wing talk circuit pounced on it and rightly called her an uppity up snob! John Kerry lost the election and this was one of the factors, beyond him voting for Iraq war before voting against it - a Senate maneuver.

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:07
shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 11:23 I mean do you guys get it at all?
Nope!

PS: Just speaking for myself here, but may be if you slow down even more and stick to one topic per post...
sankark was talking about absence of gamakas - basically CM means now gamakas - that amused me a bit ;) . Even K.S Kalidas mentioned the same thing in his talk on the history of Mridangam :o ( you tube out there) - that then the Sruti was so high and gamakas cannot be voiced - sophistication and all were not there. :lol: :lol:

எனக்கு சிரிப்பு வருது , உங்களுக்கு சிரிப்பு வரலேன்னா உங்களுக்கு என்னோட சென்ஸ் ஆப் ஹ்யுயூமர் இல்லேன்னு வெச்சுக்கலாம் ;)

sankark
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:17
sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:07
shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 11:23 I mean do you guys get it at all?
Nope!

PS: Just speaking for myself here, but may be if you slow down even more and stick to one topic per post...
sankark was talking about absence of gamakas - basically CM means now gamakas
:roll:

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:17 sankark was talking about absence of gamakas - basically CM means now gamakas - that amused me a bit ;) .
Kind of. His theory was that electronic amplification allows for the richness of gamakas heard now. I can see his point.
Even K.S Kalidas mentioned the same thing in his talk on the history of Mridangam :o ( you tube out there) - that then the Sruti was so high and gamakas cannot be voiced - sophistication and all were not there.
Yep. Seems to confirm sankark's theory.

But the same ragas existed then, even if they were relatively poorer as far as gamakas went. Was raga appreciation/knowledge much more prevalent in the 30s? May be more people hummed the popular tunes. But I find it hard that the taste in CM has dwindled by many orders of magnitude as it is made out to be.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 11:23
Wo, Wo, Wo - the numbers man! Facts , data, numbers.

https://youtu.be/lQdkFRUzoTU?t=204

Ask the man, he has a way around everything! Class act!

Yup the institution he speaks to would love numbers , so it can be:
Tried to watch this video, but there were so many "I"s in just the first few minutes that I watched, that I could not wade thru' more :(

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sureshvv »

One of the roles that Sanskrit played was in unifying thoughts and ideas prevalent in different parts of the country and bringing them under a common umbrella. All these critics of "Sanskritization" seem to ignore this vital role played by having a common language (by definition uncommon since it required education). Without it we may have fought and killed each other many generations ago.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by Ponbhairavi »

TMK could never dream of reaching the level of success of SHRI KUNNAKUDY VAIDYANATHAN , who much before him succeeded in “taking the music to the masses”.His rural temple kumbabishegam concerts in far flung villages attracted thousands of people of the “ masses “who listened to him standing for hours together late past midnight.
But TMK would not go to temples in his venture as it will be “frowned upon” by his “secular masters”( one exception being his regular annual. Concert at thiruvisalur Ayyaval matam , Ganga Akarshana utsavam In karthigai which is not much known outside.)
Last edited by Ponbhairavi on 27 Feb 2018, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by RSR »

@34-> Sri.Suresh wrote:
One of the roles that Sanskrit played was in unifying thoughts and ideas prevalent in different parts of the country and bringing them under a common umbrella.
========== I would even go further... Except in Tamilnadu, Sanskrit is the 'spoken' language in the entire country! yes. Including the 'dravidian' states of Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra ( Telengana included). if we consider sanskrit words used as nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs and the three sister languages of Tamil, make abundant use of sanskrit words. Tamil of course , has carefully isolated itself from ancient times, by being wary of such intrusion... thokaappiyam onwards..'vada sol'... Call it samskrutham or praakrutham, .the language had no name! ...thamizh had!
"vada vengadam muthal then kumaruyaayidai thamizh koorum nallulakam''. but the influence of immediate northern neighbourrs in tamil country has been considerable and continuous for more than 25 centuries and inevitably, thamizh also had a lot of sanskrit words. .. Vinobaji suggested that we provide devanagari script also for all the Indian languages and we can easily see the similarities and learn many languages very easily. Ambedkar went to the extent of recommending Sanskrit as the National Language (Official language) of India.
https://sites.google.com/site/arasiyali ... n-sanskrit

shankarank
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:25
shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:17
sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:07

Nope!

PS: Just speaking for myself here, but may be if you slow down even more and stick to one topic per post...
sankark was talking about absence of gamakas - basically CM means now gamakas
:roll:
sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 12:30 Yep. Seems to confirm sankark's theory.

But the same ragas existed then, even if they were relatively poorer as far as gamakas went. Was raga appreciation/knowledge much more prevalent in the 30s? May be more people hummed the popular tunes. But I find it hard that the taste in CM has dwindled by many orders of magnitude as it is made out to be.
sankark's point seems to be, what was sung before then is NOT CM as we know it. Almost implying: What reached then was not CM. Gamakas are to blame if ever. So why worry about it now NOT reaching - as it never reached in first place!

So it aids your point. There was no taste to begin with - so what could have dwindled? :twisted:
sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42 Relatedly, would the gamakam richness that we observe in CM today could be the result of artificial amplification - where the gamakam richness was sacrificed in the altar of power & reach?
So originally there must have been Gamakam richness - when people sang only at homes. When they sang in public gamakam richness was sacrificed! It was basically NOT CM! No gamakas - no CM goes the wisdom.

sureshvv
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sureshvv »

I think you are extrapolating further than anyone intended. May be you should apply to Times Now! :D
So it aids your point. There was no taste to begin with - so what could have dwindled?
Doesn't sound like My point. But hey!

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by uday_shankar »

sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42Relatedly, would the gamakam richness that we observe in CM today could be the result of artificial amplification - where the gamakam richness was sacrificed in the altar of power & reach?
The relationship of amplification to katcheri practice as well as the Carnatic narrative is complex. It's just not the mass reach of gamaka "nuanced" chamber music which benefited from amplification. KVN, one of my all time favorite CM artists, was a gamaka minimalist if ever there was one, also benefited from amplification. There's a raga bhava which exists independent of gamakas. Somebody like TNS, playing a traditional harmonium can bring out raga bhava much better than sundry "keyboard" artists with electronic gizmos attached with pitch benders. Back to KVN, I do believe he blossomed into a magnificent artist after the demise of his guru and ably assisted by the very amplification his other guru PMI frowned upon. It's all very complex... I hate the way CM, and in fact HM too, has gone to town in this ugly way with amplification.

In instruments too everybody connected with CM always wants to know if an instrument is effective in "reproducing gamakaws", as if that's the only thing that defines CM. Not nada, not raga, not laya, not bhava. Sethalapathy Balu, who lived at the epicenter of raga bhava (I cannnot begin to describe the ecstasy I felt when listening to him for the first time) was also a gamaka minimalist.

Parroting gamakas is not the only goal of music. Everytime somebody asks me can your instrument "reproduce avar gamakaws", the only good answer is "We're not blue-throated macaws" :p.

sankark
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sankark »

uday_shankar wrote: 28 Feb 2018, 19:53
sankark wrote: 27 Feb 2018, 08:42Relatedly, would the gamakam richness that we observe in CM today could be the result of artificial amplification - where the gamakam richness was sacrificed in the altar of power & reach?
There's a raga bhava which exists independent of gamakas. Somebody like TNS, playing a traditional harmonium can bring out raga bhava
OK, now you *should* follow it up with a separate post with audio samples.

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by uday_shankar »

OK sankark, I don't have much time except for easy part...random potshots as above :).

But here's a suggestion, listen to this ahiri fully, a raga often presumed to consist only of gamakas (like the cheshire cat which is only a grin without a cat) and the neelambari that follows...

https://youtu.be/XO6T6JuWbVU?t=1h27m55s

Check out other youtube concerts by TNS...

sankark
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by sankark »

uday_shankar, will actually listen to the entire concert; thanks for that pointer. That Ahiri is intriguing.

Is TNS approximating the gamakas of Ahiri through multiple key pressess simultaneously and lot of rapid key presses of adjacent keys (snsnsnsn, rgrgrg and so on?)

My follow up was more focussed on the first sentence of the quote - "There's a raga bhava which exists independent of gamakas. Somebody like TNS, playing a traditional harmonium can bring out raga bhava" - and not on the TNS part.

That comment of yours was intriguing.

uday_shankar
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Re: Carnatic Music and Bharata Natyam: Sanskritizing the Arts

Post by uday_shankar »

sankark wrote: 01 Mar 2018, 20:44Is TNS approximating the gamakas of Ahiri through multiple key pressess simultaneously and lot of rapid key presses of adjacent keys (snsnsnsn, rgrgrg and so on?)
Indeed. That's standard technique.
sankark wrote: 01 Mar 2018, 20:44"There's a raga bhava which exists independent of gamakas.
Yes, it needs clarification, esp. we need to have a common understanding of what we each mean by "gamaka". Will respond with clips when I have more time but here are some hints... some of the most authentic raga bhava / raga swaroopa can be experienced in the alapanas of MMI and the viruttams of Sethalapathy Balu. Both were gamaka "minimalists". So raga swaroopa is not enhanced by say, the gamaka richness of a Brindamma or say the jaaru richness of LGJ. Other types of aesthetic experiences are enhanced, but not the core sense of raga swaroopa. Again, take the kedara gowla by KB Sundarambal... doesn't that go to the heart of of the kedara gowla experience ? Or Alathoor Sivasubramania Iyer's Kamboji alapana... also a minimalist. Or Maharajapuram's briga laden mohanam...

In passing I will mention that in my experience, MMI's Todi brings out the raga swaroopa so much better than "the man who knew Todi", ARI as well as SSI. Both the latter struggled with that R1-G2-M1 and often brought our flavors of chatushruti rishabam on account. A simple rule of Todi, is that when you sing a simple phrase like SRG,, the first G is a kampita from R1 to M1 and thereafter it is from R2 to M1. But if you miss that first R1 to M1 and make it R2 to M2, your (Carnatically tuned) ear gets the flavor of chatushruti rishaba, which is very un-Todi-swaroopa-like. So if that is missed, no matter how much more briga or gamakas you throw in, the Todi experience is not as authentic.

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