TMK goes to Church

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:11 :geek:

Anyone who religiously spouts historical untruths quoting The Hindu or Bandit Nehru should expect to get corrected.

By the way, the Dutch colonial administration banned conversion activities in Hindu Bali. Except for the influx of a small percentage of Muslims from other islands, Bali remains 93% Hindu.
You are welcome to your views, Harimau. But religious hatred is a recurring theme here and it is completely out of place. This is a forum for CM and not Hinduism. We have people of all religions here. At least they should all feel welcome, without exclusion. We cannot practice Hindu chauvinism. I want to enjoy being here and this is preventing it. I'm sure there are many like me. There are many chauvinists too, but the question is: what is Rasikas' policy? who do we want to be ? Only the moderator and others who created this forum should answer and honestly, I WANT an answer.

I have often enjoyed your writing and humor, Harimau. But this religious finger-pointing is so beneath you and all of us!

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:30
harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 22:43
Have you been to Kerala?
https://www.thetoptens.com/states-india-live/

Read the part that says:
Clean and neat places, no pollution, full of greeneries, well educated people, back waters, no communal violence, roads to reach everywhere, very good in tourism and health sector, best police in India.
Cost of living is cheap than other states.
Very good people and good cost of living comparing other states.
East or west kerala is the best, people are welcoming, Top state with highest literacy, well accurate in sex ratio, highest life expectancy. Living cost is cheap. Less pollution. Calm environment, enriched with cultures and with different religions, people are united with no discrimination, Best police service in India. Good in agriculture tourism and health sectors.
I will be happy to wear a burqa if my state can be as good.
You ought to study causality.

Wearing a burqa didn't lead to all the things mentioned in the article you quoted.

If that is the case, Pakistan and Afghanistan would have the same Human Development Index as Kerala.

You could put all of your family in burqas and your home state wouldn't improve.

But then, you could point out that the US with 100% TV penetration leads in deaths due to heart disease and conclude that TVs cause heart disease. Or bikinis.

That is an idea! Let us see if bikinis in Kerala take it to the level of the USA or Sweden!

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

Ranganayaki wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:33
harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:11 :geek:

Anyone who religiously spouts historical untruths quoting The Hindu or Bandit Nehru should expect to get corrected.

By the way, the Dutch colonial administration banned conversion activities in Hindu Bali. Except for the influx of a small percentage of Muslims from other islands, Bali remains 93% Hindu.
You are welcome to your views, Harimau. But religious hatred is a recurring theme here and it is completely out of place. This is a forum for CM and not Hinduism. We have people of all religions here. At least they should all feel welcome, without exclusion. We cannot practice Hindu chauvinism. I want to enjoy being here and this is preventing it. I'm sure there are many like me. There are many chauvinists too, but the question is: what is Rasikas' policy? who do we want to be ? Only the moderator and others who created this forum should answer and honestly, I WANT an answer.

I have often enjoyed your writing and humor, Harimau. But this religious finger-pointing is so beneath you and all of us!
I merely pursue truth. And as they say, Satyameva Jayathe!

As Jack Nicholson says, "You can't handle the truth".

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 16:02 difference in meaning of words like Athesism, Agnosticism, Secularism, Religious fanaticism, Mysticism, Faith and Bigotry
All of these are words/concepts alien to India. Invented by Marxist Scholars ( if not Marxist - substitute any "-ist" from the Enlightenment world - why do I care?) . These exist simply for the latter to stay relevant and have their argument.

I would rather have the argument with the Church directly. That is more of a honest debate. The interlocutors have been effectively sidelined. TMK singing in the Church is the Victory for all the maneuvers that have been done!

People who have been quoting Voltaire, have been now made to sing in front of the Church!

If Christianity paganized the natives, Enlightenment taught their readers to paganize their Ancestors.

Evidence: https://youtu.be/c9WlsTgU8BE?t=633 . When was ever a single religion existed in India. This is the debate the right is losing by allowing others and themselves positing the same ( that even at some point there was one religion) and then themselves having to contradict it. The compulsions of the street dialogue!

At one point it may actually be true that people of vEdic tradition never went beyond the dvaja of a temple - they stood where nandanar stood , at best they would go to the nyAya manTapa to discuss nyAya. Agama is something that came from outside! If necessary, this status may have to be restored to respond to the criticism.

Now my co-worker is telling me, his sons don't know why people conduct all these rituals in the temple and side by side adding - Hindusim is the last remaining pagan religion!
Last edited by shankarank on 04 Mar 2018, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:30
harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 22:43
Have you been to Kerala?
https://www.thetoptens.com/states-india-live/

Read the part that says:..
If Kerala is good, the parts that are good are the parts where there have never been invasion and even British did not have direct control. So that tells you what happened in all other places. Tamizh country would have stayed like that if the invasions did not come in. What you have are Telugu origin people! Brahmins gave up their land when challenged!

But rest assured, the Left will destroy Kerala, if allowed to rule for more time. Whatever problems in there are caused by the Left! Missionaries have come before, Arab traders have come before. All syncretized well. No issues there!

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:58

I merely pursue truth. And as they say, Satyameva Jayathe!
Wow, that sounds exalted!

But nobody pursues falsehood, you know. If you pursue a truth which cannot rise above the level of somebody else's truth except for your preference for it, then it does not have much validity beyond your preference.

So this pursuit, that allows you to exclude Christians and muslims and other religions, makes you less wise than you can be and does not exalt you. You would be kinder not imposing your truth on others like me.

But there is another truth that is absolute and cannot be refuted. May be you could pursue that. And that is the Satya in Satyameva Jayate. Not this hate-filled stuff!

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:50
I will be happy to wear a burqa if my state can be as good.
You ought to study causality.
And you should learn to read. Nowhere did I imply causality.

Anyway you have tacitly admitted to the superior quality of life in Kerala, burqas notwithstanding.

Which was my point to begin with.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 02:56 But rest assured, the Left will destroy Kerala, if allowed to rule for more time.
This is your fear talking. No evidence whatsoever.

When you blame a government for all the problems, you ought to credit them for the good things that happen too.

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

http://www.thehindu.com/society/when-re ... epage=true

What butt of jokes some people have become? And he quotes many enlightened junksters! Ignoring the intellectual tradition of the country, you will be now taught by the antagonists of the Church, who are in fact their first front agents!

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 09:23 This is your fear talking. No evidence whatsoever.
EMS did a land re-distribution. This could have been done without a Left ideology in a more just way. Impoverished a future constituency of his party who would want to make sure their pension, benefits and salaries will get paid - so at least alternatively they will be in power.

At that time, Left also invented locally compatible slogans and meshed with the culture - so most people did not read their real ideologies and done a critical look at it. They were made to believed the Left ideology is integral part of their ethos!

In the land of Adi Sankara, their own intellectuals failed to counter the left critically, only fuming over their property loss. Sankara - kodungara - against EMS now.

Tambrams - called Bhattars also voted Communist. I heard from a agrahAram vAsi, that there were kOlams with aruvAL, suttiyal, natchattiram. That is their existential achievement in the 20th century! Clueless civilization is an Apt description here.

Meanwhile the Church ( pAmbin kAl pAmbariyum) quietly worked its ways into Society! The Church knows what communism is. It has dealt with it all its history.

I was witness to the conversation in the passenger loading bus en-flight to Thiruvananthapuram to Chennai (2005/06) - between a coordinator of all NGOs and what seemed like a high ranking official of Kerala Government. They were discussing and laughing about why we need an IT park in Trivandrum! Next Day The Hindu published a photograph of his with some write up - thats when I knew who that guy was.

Kerala's cash flow is mostly repatriation from the Gulf. So it is under life support! And whatever beauty is inherited beauty of it's culture - to be eaten by the Cancer called the Left.
Last edited by shankarank on 04 Mar 2018, 11:08, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

I am quoting in this thread - since I don't want to sully a pristine thread!
Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 08:17 Most of Carnatic music is devotional
You mean the sukkumi-laguti word split? Which is prevalent in all pATAntarams? Hanging in the antaram??

I don't understand this actually. This devotional and all that, seems to be a parroting of whatever the Buddhi-JIvis learnt - they just learnt how to speak only - not the actual meaning. Can you explain this ?

Is it also religious music? TMK says NO - actually! Then how come most of it is devotional? What is the definition of devotional ? I don't understand at all! Can you explain?

Should it address one of the 33 K or 33 C gods? Gods - really?? That many creators ? Wow? World is quite a creation then!
Ranganayaki wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:33 This is a forum for CM and not Hinduism. What is Rasikas' policy? who do we want to be ? Only the moderator and others who created this forum should answer and honestly, I WANT an answer.
Should we discuss it here at all? I don't understand what we are doing here?

What about the pursuit of excellence? If kanakavasana is paused @ kanaka, most people would struggle to maintain the pace. Have you heard of this thing about Mridangam playing - where if some Mridangists pause , they cannot put their hand back easily?. There seems to be an equivalent of this deficiency in kriti singing looks like?

kana vasana is telugu? Unknown language? Are they that much devoted to it? What is then devotional mostly about it?

I really don't understand this!!!

Are people objecting to this just being Linguists? Language chauvinists? To be othered that way - invent some Anthropological invectives! They don't know what musical excellence is really!

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 10:36 I am quoting in this thread - since I don't want to sully a pristine thread!
Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 08:17 Most of Carnatic music is devotional
You mean the sukkumi-laguti word split? Which is prevalent in all pATAntarams? Hanging in the antaram??

I'm at a loss.. what word split?

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

I will let you catch up with all the threads and then explain to you!

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 11:19 I will let you catch up with all the threads and then explain to you!
Time to explain!

You quote me and ask a random question about some other thread!

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 10:22 This could have been done without a Left ideology in a more just way.
What "just" way? You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs :D
At that time, Left also invented locally compatible slogans and meshed with the culture - so most people did not read their real ideologies and done a critical look at it. They were made to believed the Left ideology is integral part of their ethos!
You have it backwards. The "ethos" (sarvE janaaha sukhino bhavantu) stays the same. The Left aligned their message with the ethos, capturing the people's imagination.
In the land of Adi Sankara, their own intellectuals failed to counter the left critically, only fuming over their property loss. Sankara - kodungara - against EMS now.
Adi Sankara turning in his grave now :D
Tambrams - called Bhattars also voted Communist. I heard from a agrahAram vAsi, that there were kOlams with aruvAL, suttiyal, natchattiram. That is their existential achievement in the 20th century! Clueless civilization is an Apt description here.
You are the clueless one. They knew which side of the bread was buttered.

Kerala's cash flow is mostly repatriation from the Gulf. So it is under life support! And whatever beauty is inherited beauty of it's culture - to be eaten by the Cancer called the Left.
Taking the 30000 ft view, it looks like the "cancer" has progressed very well.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

Story 2 is of serious concern. The other 2 are just fluff evidencing the pomposity of the writer himself.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 10:36

Is it also religious music? TMK says NO - actually! Then how come most of it is devotional? What is the definition of devotional ? I don't understand at all! Can you explain?
This is the only part of your post that seems genuine to me.

Surely you don't think "religious" and "devotional" are synonymous and interchangeable !! To put it simply , religion is external, a social phenomenon, it organizes a society in some way. Devotion is at the level of the individual alone, it is a phenomenon that is experienced internally, as a very deep attachment to something personal that inspires the individual.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 04 Mar 2018, 12:25, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by RSR »

Some people think that the much-hated word 'socialism' is alien to India's ethical values, over so many centuries. Not so. According to the way of life since ancient times, communal ownership especially in land has been the ideal. and practice. Even today, so many zamindaris and ex-kingdoms have become very poor but Devasthanams are still flourishing. Good Thing. Contributions to religious institutions and temples by common people, rich and poor, is redirected to schemes for public welfare.
'No universal selfishness can bring social good to all," he said.
"Communism -- the effort to give all men what they need and to ask of each the best they can contribute -- this is the only way of human life."These aims are not crimes. They are practiced increasingly over the world. No nation can call itself free which does not allow its citizens to work for these ends
That was Dr.DuBois. . Let us think of the glaring injustice of bad debts by public sector banks running into lakhs of crores of rupees while more than 75% of people are struggling to get means of bare subsistence. The latest OXFAM report reveals the picture of alarming rise in concentration of national wealth in very few hands. We should not talk about political-economic-social problems in this forum . and hence this is enough.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 12:07
Story 2 is of serious concern. The other 2 are just fluff evidencing the pomposity of the writer himself.
I only saw mind-numbing fluff!

RSR
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by RSR »

such sentiments...of despair and hence escapism, are the hallmark of all the authors quoted and mentioned in the article. ( sadanand menon..kafka stuff) May be that we do not have an ideal solution but we should try to do whatever we can to solve the problem. I have given a link to a rarely known note by Sri.T.Sadasivam on the musical genius of SmtMS and how she used her genius for public welfare in her own way. ( please see MS thread) That is the right spirit. not crying for vendetta of past incidents of hatred and violence. We always seem to want some rationale for expressing hatred. be it religious differences, linguistic issues, caste issues, and such. How the jains were eliminated in tamil country is a matter of 'research'. Do we not have enough evidence to see how much hatred and violence is there today, between two major branches of Islam? or the terrible inquisitions in the Christendom? even between varios sects in vaishavites and saivites? or between Sikhs? Yet, the essential message of all the religions remains still Universal Love and Service. Ignore the bad things and speak of the good things. That is what Dr.Kalaam has taught us.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

Should it address one of the 33 K or 33 C gods? Gods - really?? That many creators ? Wow? World is quite a creation then!
Even setting aside the various philosophical traditions which emphasize only one supreme being, the mythology involving the pantheon of gods describes only one creator, and you probably know which one that is - Bramha. Vishnu, Shiva etc. are not considered creators, and they have their own separate roles, the same for all the rest of the gods and divinities.

In general in spite of the number of gods, "Hinduism" is monotheistic.

RSR
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by RSR »

An atheist rejects all notions of God. ( I wonder if Buddhists and Jains do not belong to this group. According to them, it is our karma (ethics) which causes cycle of birth and rebirth ( punarapi jananam ,punarapi maranam, punarapi janani jadare sayanam) the good and bad things in individual's lives are result of one's actions in previous birth... much of this has been incorporated into modern Indian thought. . Is there any kruthi in CM, that glorifies violence and animal sacrifice? No divine intervention can give us relief. ." seythavam illaarku deivam varam koda' ( gods do not grant boons to people who have NOT earned it by their deeds in previous birth!... silabmu) So the only way is to lead a righteous life...In a way, the old vedic life also did not believe in personal God. For them ,it was just a matter of propitiating the Elemental forces of Nature by offerings taken to the celestial forces by Agni. So a bit optimistic! 2) Non-vedic Indian religion, believes in God(s) .So does Islam and Christianity.
Vaishnavam, and Saivam, Ganapathyam, Kaumaram, are based on non-killing. and nice thing is that there is no animal sacrifice in religious places of Islam and Christianity. or Sikhism. ( jainism and buddhism too ) Unfortunately, animal sacrifice is the most prevalent pratice in 'hindu' way of life ! ( militates against all the best tenets of KuraL. ) The idea of personal God brings solace to people and gives them mental strength. Belief in netherworld, if it leads to a life of purity and service and even cultural excellence, is always welcome. Agnostics are philosophers and they say that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved. There are limits to Human Knoledge Only mystics can see that unity by instinct.
Atheism in practice, denies God, Cycle of birth-death-rebirth, accountability, ..theoretically. Ofcourse, a very 'religious ' person can be a monster and a philosophical atheist a model of compassion, self-sacrifice and service.. Practice and not mere precepts.

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 12:07 Story 2 is of serious concern. The other 2 are just fluff evidencing the pomposity of the writer himself.
You mean the PM about plastic surgery. It should be taken as a narrative. But he should have done better. A French General is likely to have seen this being done in a War Zone.

http://columbiasurgery.org/news/2015/05 ... ic-surgery

https://books.google.com/books?id=sEX11 ... ce&f=false


sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 11:57 Taking the 30000 ft view, it looks like the "cancer" has progressed very well.
OK you resort to lame sarcasm. Yes according to UN Development reports. The Church has good paid and trained press. If anything the Church is the real bulwark against communism and it could be credited here somewhat.

Just not too long ago Kerala Govt. was over drafting the RBI account to pay salaries. If Kerala is looking up it is due to the prosperity of the rest of the country as well. Other states have their traditional issues, like Urban poor due to Industrialization and such to deal with.

shankarank
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 13:02
Even setting aside the various philosophical traditions which emphasize only one supreme being.

In general in spite of the number of gods, "Hinduism" is monotheistic.
Why do we have to use borrowed language. What is this monotheistic? There are creation stories - but they are narratives. There is no one Supreme Being.

Philosophical traditions are intellectual pursuits of the capable. Nevertheless Sri Sankara, Sri Ramanuja likely listened to kathas with avid interest.

A Good discussion occurs here: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-histo ... t-resolved

The correct thing to say is : Creation that we see is held as sacred. And here is an unusual thing that demonstrates it - from Kerala.

http://www.mannarasala.org/dynamic.php? ... rasalaAmma

Creation itself was declared as myth by one philosophical school.

Physicists say in their own way that the observed phenomena ( in their mathematical model) is a holographic projection of a two dimensional surface. But our philosophers were not the same as the Scientists and their method cannot be called Scientific.

It is just some amazing thing that they could think systematically and abstractly in their ways. Thats how I see it.

Yajmir
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Yajmir »

Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 13:02
Should it address one of the 33 K or 33 C gods? Gods - really?? That many creators ? Wow? World is quite a creation then!
Even setting aside the various philosophical traditions which emphasize only one supreme being, the mythology involving the pantheon of gods describes only one creator, and you probably know which one that is - Bramha. Vishnu, Shiva etc. are not considered creators, and they have their own separate roles, the same for all the rest of the gods and divinities.

In general in spite of the number of gods, "Hinduism" is monotheistic.
<REDACTED>Hinduism is 100% polytheistic. The fact that it is polytheistic makes the Abrahamics and people who have swallowed Abrahamistics memes through Western philosophies uncomfortable. That's why the westerners like to label Hinduism as Pantheistic. So that they can claim that Hindu just worship "Yahweh" with different name. The fact that there is a system which they have tried to eliminate for centuries still exists and followed by large number of people shows that they have failed in destroying the Pagans. Just because Brahma is considered creator doesn't mean Hinduism is monotheistic <REDACTED>. Abrahamistic notion of creator being supreme doesn't apply to Hinduism. <REDACTED>

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

Language please! You surely are capable of expressing yourself without resorting to expletives.

Yajmir
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Yajmir »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 21:55 Language please! You surely are capable of expressing yourself without resorting to expletives.
Whatever....Stupidity of Indians knows no bound. This is what happens when you cede the study of your own culture, language and religion to white foreigners. White worshiping Indians will swallow everything white people say. Indians are insecure dolts whose whole self worth lies in what white people have to say about them.

Yajmir
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Yajmir »

The more I converse with Indians online, the more it infuriates me. They have no self respect at all. Yet, when a white guy/girl says something about India, they go "Proud to be Indian". Muslims making Indians dhimmi for 1000 years, then the onslaught of the Britishers have <REDACTED> with the minds of Indians. I hope Indians get cured of this disease quickly. The more I read the <REDACTED> of brown-sahibs here on this forum the more angry I get. So, I am out. Good day. I would rather listen to music then converse with Indians online and get angry all the time.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yajmir, the kind of language you used is totally unacceptable. Especially when addressing our fellow members. Disagree respectfully.
I have redacted the offensive parts while trying to keep the essence of your post.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

Yajmir wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 22:02
sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 21:55 Language please! You surely are capable of expressing yourself without resorting to expletives.
Whatever....Stupidity of Indians knows no bound.
As opposed to the wisdom of popping up in a civil forum, using foul language and trashing an entire population of 1.5 billion people?

RSR
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by RSR »

The debate is not about the nature of 'Hinduism'. It is about TMK's laudable effort to take CM to the people of other religions. Who is a 'Hindu'? Difficult to give precise answer. ..Perhaps, any one who does not declare himself to be a Christian or Muslim or Sikh. It is merely an accident of birth. Even brahmins have their own 'kula deivam'. However, latter-day brahmins have created a unified picture of Hinduism, based not on dharmas saastras but on epics and puranas. ( as early as the period of Gupta empire ..300 AD- 600 SD.) It was not a dark age. Sanskrit was the language of the intelligentsia of the entire country with the possible exception of far south. It was the Golden period in Indian history after that of Asoka. Tribal gods and goddesses abound and still survive and are remembered in interior villages. At a lower level, we perceive differences only. But at a higher level, we perceive the unity. 'ulakam enpathu uyarnthor maatte'... when judhging the ideology of a society, we go by the perception of its leading intellectuals and scholars.' and that unity cannot be and was not ,confined to our native religion alone but to all religious thinking. worldwide. It is like the procedure adopted in scientific research and hypothesis. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa had personally tried the religious practices of all religions and asserted the essential truth of all. Thus, Indian religion is at once hugely polytheistic and yet monotheistic and monist as well. We cannot talk of admiring CM in abstract. We always associate some singer, song, ragam, tune and from that arrive at general appreciation. . The concept of unity is as old as Upanishads and Gita. What is there borrowed from foreigners? Our civilization like that of Levant, Egypt and China is 5000 years old. where as Christianity is just 2000 years old and Islam about 1300 years old.

Nick H
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Nick H »

yes: modern upstarts. Although Judaism is ancient.
It is about TMK's laudable effort to take CM to the people of other religions
Why is it laudable? Anyone who wants carnatic music can have it. It isn't locked away. In this country, all they need to do is to turn on the radio at the right time of day.

I don't mean this to sound aggressive, and I do believe in widening the horizons of carnatic music, but... while the majority of foreign tourists passing through Chennai in December don't even know about carnatic music, let alone our Season, somehow I can't imagine that the christian population of Chennai is so ignorant of it. Like, "Oh, never realised this exists, and actually it sounds quite nice!" Maybe I have this all all wrong, and maybe that is the intention and perhaps, for a few, the result. Well, fair enough if it is.

Something else occurs to me... If TMK is really sincere about that, then why not send his students to sing in the churches. Regularly. Not just one headline-grabbing event, but quiet and consistent work. Perhaps it happens, but I don't know about it because it doesn't grab headlines*.

My writing style is a bit assertive: I'm not really meaning this to be assertive at all, more a mulling over of these things.

By the way... I was visiting someone in the christian heartlands of St Thomas Mount on Saturday. Judging by the awful pseudo-pop rubbish blaring from the next-door house, I'm pretty sure that they would be no more interested in carnatic than they would be in Beethoven. Or... even half-decent rock music! When it comes to Christian music, the devil won the battle! :twisted: :(. Minds full of that stuff are probably beyond "saving." But missionary-TMK can try, I suppose.

(Religion is not of the essence of this: I would have said the same of the Brits that I grew up who's minds were unable to expand beyond the "top-ten" of the day into intelligent rock or even folk, let alone classical**. However, since it became trendy for churches there and elsewhere to leave aside their own quality-music history for keyboard/guitar/drum-machine piffle, the church has certainly had a hand in lowering the musical-intelligence bar)

(I think they don't have this "problem" in Kerala? Sure, the music in the churches is the same "god-awful" ;) rubbish (I've been to weddings there), but I think christian students of carnatic music are not uncommon?)


* If future generations of Brits are a little more aware of Indian-music-beyond-Ravi-Shankar, it will because of the five-minute school-assembly slots given to South-Asian-origin kids to show off their singing/dancing/veena/etc.

**We return to the bottom line that serious music or art of any kind is for serious people and is necessarily a minority pursuit. Don't blame the composers/artists/performers: the people make the choice.

RSR
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by RSR »

Nick H wrote:
Although Judaism is ancient.

"Our civilization like that of Levant, Egypt and China is 5000 years old. where as Christianity is just 2000 years old and Islam about 1300 years old. "
"The term Levant is also used for modern events, peoples, states or parts of states in the same region, namely Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Turkey are sometimes considered Levant countries (compare with Near East, Middle East, Eastern Mediterranean and Western Asia)....". So, it covers Judaism also.
------------------------------------------------------
Whether we like it or not, TMK is well-known among the younger generation. and it is a good thing that he acts as the cultural 'ambassador' of CM to the interior areas in Tamil country. All the thousands of colleges and schools in Tamilnad ( there are more than 500 Engg colleges) have an Arts and Literary club. and they conduct annual festivals. TMK because of his international recognition, may be welcome guest there and we can only pray that he uses that fame to good purpose. Some such attempt is better than concentrating on Chennai alone.
Ofcourse, any one sincerely interested in learning CM/HM can get basic knowledge through Radio and TV programs and also through thousands of qulaity uploads in youtube and many mp3 channels. But some one has to introduce the theme to the young minds. All of us study science in school and college but not all become Nobel Lauretes. The same logic can be extended to music sabahas also. When everyone almost is having smart phone and internet comnnection, who needs concert platform? I suppose, the experience is different. just like personal participation in a huge public meeting rather than listening to the speech in radio. Not arguing. Just thinking loud, as you do.
My understanding is that the quality of public awareness has gone down , universally! Technology has triumphed but the Arts appreciation has become of lower standard. We agree there.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 20:53
Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 13:02
Even setting aside the various philosophical traditions which emphasize only one supreme being.

In general in spite of the number of gods, "Hinduism" is monotheistic.
Why do we have to use borrowed language. What is this monotheistic? There are creation stories - but they are narratives. There is no one Supreme Being.
I thought about this a lot. My first reaction was what's wrong with monotheistic . What's your problem with English?

But may be you are right, and monotheism is not quite adequate to describe the absolute in Hinduism.

I was thinking of notions like "eka vAstu (vividha nama)," but monotheism, as far as I know implies attributes like omnipresence, omniscience etc., which are valid but do not capture the subtlety of ekavastu.

I meNt monotheistic in the sense of ekavastu, but I agree that it is an insufficient word to capture the nature of this philosophy.

I dont think that we should discuss this further. This discussion happened, but it is not the topic of this thread and I don't want to hijack it (while it is going well too).

srkris
Site Admin
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by srkris »

Yajmir wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 22:02 Whatever....Stupidity of Indians knows no bound. This is what happens when you cede the study of your own culture, language and religion to white foreigners. White worshiping Indians will swallow everything white people say. Indians are insecure dolts whose whole self worth lies in what white people have to say about them.
Yajmir, please read the forum rules - app.php/rules

This is a private forum and you need to follow the rules if you want to participate here productively.

We have banned other members who didnt know how to converse decently, and we will do so again if there is a need to.

Admin.

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

shankarank wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 01:35 .......
Now my co-worker is telling me, his sons don't know why people conduct all these rituals in the temple and side by side adding - Hindusim is the last remaining pagan religion!
Heathen or pagan?

I always ask my friends in the West of the Christian persuasion who has the better -- meaning, wilder -- parties, heathens or pagans?

The general consensus is pagans.

Though Christian missionaries coming to India referred to the natives as heathens, I believe we are pagans, what with the abundance of soma and sura beverages. :lol: :twisted: :lol:

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

Ranganayaki wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:33
harimau wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 23:11 :geek:

Anyone who religiously spouts historical untruths quoting The Hindu or Bandit Nehru should expect to get corrected.

By the way, the Dutch colonial administration banned conversion activities in Hindu Bali. Except for the influx of a small percentage of Muslims from other islands, Bali remains 93% Hindu.
You are welcome to your views, Harimau. But religious hatred is a recurring theme here and it is completely out of place. This is a forum for CM and not Hinduism. We have people of all religions here. At least they should all feel welcome, without exclusion. We cannot practice Hindu chauvinism. I want to enjoy being here and this is preventing it. I'm sure there are many like me. There are many chauvinists too, but the question is: what is Rasikas' policy? who do we want to be ? Only the moderator and others who created this forum should answer and honestly, I WANT an answer.

I have often enjoyed your writing and humor, Harimau. But this religious finger-pointing is so beneath you and all of us!

Don't draw conclusions about my views based on what I write. I try to stimulate people into thinking as opposed to spouting the BS they have learned from twisted history manufactured to suit the government.

There is something called "playing the Devil's Advocate" to force people to think along lines not sanctioned by the conventional discourse.

Indians are so afraid of that because they have been afraid for the last 1000 years of the powers that ruled the land.

After all, if Herman Kahn can write a book about thinking the unthinkable -- namely, nuclear war -- we can think the unthinkable too, even if it goes against conventional discourse.

And to think that here we are, discussing T M Krishna's Brahmin-bashing, but not allowed to bash anyone else!

One must have a sense of perspective to see the irony in the situation, something you guys and gals lack!

PS. On another thread in Members' Lounge which has been locked, someone asked me if I would support the Islamic call to prayer five times a day. Here is my answer:

Nine pm when Kapali temple idol is taken out in procession is generally not when people have gone to sleep. Even the Supreme Court has ruled that there should be no prayers on loudspeakers after 11 pm.

At 4:30 am when the first call to prayer comes from mosques, people are still sleeping. So it disturbs the majority of the people. If you insist, then follow the practice of 1300 years ago: no loudspeakers. The mullah can shout himself hoarse for all I care.

Another thing. If these guys want 3-talaq divorce, 4-wives at a time and all those things that go with it, are you in favor of it? How about marrying Muslim women off at age 9 to 56-year-old men? (Guess who did that!) Would you be in favor of that?

I am sure to hear deafening silence as your answer!

semmu86
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by semmu86 »

harimau wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 08:03
I am sure to hear deafening silence as your answer!
Two more possibilities. This thread getting locked too, or some BS in the name of secularism.

As an aside to others, as this forum supports democracy and freedom of speech, Why not we dissect the ilayaraja issue like we did The Andal issue to our Heart's content and then lock the thread concluding that it isn't going anywhere?

sureshvv
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 08:03 Don't draw conclusions about my views based on what I write. I try to stimulate people into thinking as opposed to spouting the BS they have learned from twisted history manufactured to suit the government.
Ridiculous. At least take responsibility for the views you spout.
And to think that here we are, discussing T M Krishna's Brahmin-bashing, but not allowed to bash anyone else!
To his credit, TMK has never descended to the vile depths that you do regularly.
At 4:30 am when the first call to prayer comes from mosques, people are still sleeping. So it disturbs the majority of the people. If you insist, then follow the practice of 1300 years ago: no loudspeakers. The mullah can shout himself hoarse for all I care.
Why don't you take some time to reflect and arrive at a policy enforceable irrespective of religion instead of approaching all issues with an "us vs them" mentality?
Another thing. If these guys want 3-talaq divorce, 4-wives at a time and all those things that go with it, are you in favor of it? How about marrying Muslim women off at age 9 to 56-year-old men? (Guess who did that!) Would you be in favor of that?
Of course not! Not everyone thinks only along narrow religious lines like you do.

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 09:48
harimau wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 08:03 And to think that here we are, discussing T M Krishna's Brahmin-bashing, but not allowed to bash anyone else!
To his credit, TMK has never descended to the vile depths that you do regularly.

.... blah blah blah

Why don't you take some time to reflect and arrive at a policy enforceable irrespective of religion instead of approaching all issues with an "us vs them" mentality?
This morning I was walking peaceably along suburban streets for my morning constitutional. I encountered a group of about 200 men and women carrying wooden crosses and singing softly as they made their way to a nearby church. I realized that this was because today is Good Friday.

Nobody accosted me to tell me I was a sinner if I didn't accept Jesus as my Redeemer. Nor did I tell them not to cause "noise pollution" by singing at about 6:30 am when people may still be asleep.

So I don't know if I am the one exhibiting "us-versus-them" mentality.

According to you and people like T M Krishna who seem to derive their thoughts from the indoctrination they have received from The Hindu, maybe I am still at fault for not "respecting minority rights" by sympathizing with their predicament at being forced to watch Hindu deities being taken out in procession. Maybe the majority could respect minority rights by shuttering their own temples and breaking their own idols as idol worship is offensive to those who follow Abrahamic religions.

Oh, the majority as well as the minority were inconvenienced greatly today as the buses were re-routed away from the Mylapore tank and those who wanted to go to the tank area because their homes or businesses may be there had to walk a few hundred meters.

Bad Hindus, bad Hindus!

semmu86
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by semmu86 »

sureshvv wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 09:48 Of course not! Not everyone thinks only along narrow religious lines.
Of course not.

That's why the US Embassy @ Chennai was recently stoned and vandalized by the peaceful community when one of the films that was released in the US had something to say about their religion. Whereas, when a popular actor in a Tamil film had raised questions about the need for building a Temple (alone) in place of an hospital, the ones who protested against that peacefully by telling his "Real" name were trolled.

That actor could have also added by questioning the need to build Mosques or Churches in addition to that Temple.. Of course that would be hurting the sentiments of them.

And the BS that we would get in reply to this would be, instead of a direct answer to this, so many temples are already in a dilapidated state :D

And in fear of many more uncomfortable truths coming out, in fear of hurting many sentiments, as a result of thinking along narrow religious lines, I wont be surprised if this thread too gets locked or my account getting banned :lol:

VK RAMAN
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by VK RAMAN »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUrcauWSPEo - we incorporated this in our bhajans due to the message it conveys.

arasi
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by arasi »

VKR,
A breath of fresh air, thank you , and praNAms. Good that you remind others that all different religions emphasize oneness (unity). The young girls move us with their singing.
Semmu,
Good to hear from you too :)

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by Ranganayaki »

So nice to know where Sri VKR stands 😊.

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

arasi wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 08:02 VKR,
A breath of fresh air, thank you , and praNAms. Good that you remind others that all different religions emphasize oneness (unity). The young girls move us with their singing.
Didn't understand a word of what they were singing. Will accept your word that the lyrics remind us that all religions emphasize oneness.

The question is: oneness of what?

The Abrahamic religions emphasize oneness of God, and each one of them claim to have the one real God.

In the 19th century, certain Hindus became so enamored of this concept -- and wanted to feel accepted by the British overlords -- that they started sects like Brahmo Samaj. The net result can be seen in Bengal today: Last year I attended a reception for the upanayanam of two Bengali youngsters. There were separate counters for vegetarian and non-vegetarian food (Bengalis historically used to eat seafood) but by now Bengalis have become so servile to "modern thought" that they were serving mutton and beef too! Beef, at an upanayanam!

We can have oneness of God in Hinduism too. Except that the more numerous Iyers would demand the demolition of Perumal temples and the even more numerous Maravans would eliminate Siva too and anoint Small-Pox (Mariamman) as the One True Goddess. :roll: :twisted: :evil:

With Small-Pox as the official Goddess of the Hindus, we will have to stop vaccinations, take out from storage the remaining stock of the small-pox virus, grow them by the trillions in laboratories and spread them throughout India. We can then also engage in proselytization by spreading the virus among non-believers all over the world!

Hey, not a bad idea! Except that I would miss the sweet pongal of the Perumal temples. :lol:
Last edited by harimau on 01 Apr 2018, 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

harimau
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by harimau »

Ranganayaki wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 08:04 So nice to know where Sri VKR stands 😊.
Among the Politically Correct!

sankark
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by sankark »

harimau wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 08:31
arasi wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 08:02 VKR,
A breath of fresh air, thank you , and praNAms. Good that you remind others that all different religions emphasize oneness (unity). The young girls move us with their singing.
We can have oneness of God in Hinduism too. Except that the more numerous Iyers would demand the demolition of Perumal temples
I think you are employing some exaggeration there for a shock effect as per your modus operandi; smArtAs aren't against perumAL temples; vishNu/nArAyaNAn is very much part of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchayatana_puja and they also go to srIrangam/tirupati/thiruvallikkeni and any number of other perumAl temples; in fact Acamanam is with achutan ananthan gOvindan succeeded by 12 names typically associated with vishNu/nArAyanan.

VK RAMAN
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Re: TMK goes to Church

Post by VK RAMAN »

I did grahapravesam in a christian home and I remember majority christians in a Bank demanding for and attendingr GaNapathi Homam due to infighting among employees.

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