Scope of General Discussions

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by kvchellappa »

Pl write, sir. You will have readers.

RSR
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

vasanthakokilam » 18 Mar 2018, 07:45
Moved 'Will Durant' to 'history and culture' section.
Sri.VK, Thank you

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by rajeshnat »

All ,
There is one critical point which is still not stated by VK or Srkris.I am putting that in their behalf . The purpose of having a separate section called Members Lounge is to ensure that we still post about non musical stuff but at the same time it stays in members lounge to ensure that it is is not getting indexed by google . If you search in google you will never get links that hit the members lounge text directly. Technically I think making a topic to be viewed without login will make the site indexed by search engine where as only when you force the topic to be viewable only after mandatory login ensures the rule of not to be indexed can be enforced . Hence as such it is a sound decision by srkris to keep Members lounge and have it non indexed . That way we are not bringing more non cm and non music patrons as new members into rasikas.org diluting the core necessity of this forum which is only CM and around.

Historically about 8 years back there were lot of discussions other than music like we had discussions like Lungi , Idly in general discussions and it was clogging the site and prima facie then after protests this concept of Members Lounge came up and Srkris did a great job of satisfying those to post non musical topics into Members Lounge . Srkris did create members lounge to ensure that we still are respected for contribution and he created to ensure that we are not hurt that such and such topic is not allowed . At times the rope is much longer than what is needed but that is the pain of moderation.

If each of us start pushing posts like our area of interest which is non musical , then the forum is becoming less and less musical and becomes more to bring our interest excluding CM and Music . Already I and many see atleast two posters who are pushing non musical and irrelevant posts most of the time even in few threads which start musical and it is a struggle to get past the humps almost each day .

Having said that there are topics like say spiritual or literature which do have zero or minor overlap with music but that is at times let in inside general discussions. One example is Arasi's translation of Bharathiar as penned by Yadugiri ammal . Also topics of historic literature that pasupathy sir is posting after his 60 + years of painstaking collection. The unwritten rule is how that forumite can bring their personal flair with the content and also share our experiences and the personality of forumites like say Arasi ,Pasupathy ,MKR etc who bring in mostly their original content . So it is ok for those to get moved to Non Member Lounges topic and have it in General discussions etc. As of now MKR sir who is now showing interest now to post his experiences working in publishing houses is his own experience and that is welcome and it is surely non musical. Contrast that to putting non cm topic with an unending series of different urls from different sites from web with no personal experience is to be discouraged totally or only moved to lounge. As such there is an unwritten rule that Mods follow and i only hope that few who are raising the relevance of Members lounge do understand.

srkris or VK can add more if I have misquoted the useful purpose of members lounge please do add.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Rajesh, You have covered it all.

shankarank
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by shankarank »

rajeshnat wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 17:14 there are topics like say spiritual or literature which do have zero or minor overlap with music
Does any guru of music make such a classification to any student in any class? Then whichever thought process that made such a classification - does it have anything to do with music as we have inherited it? Aren't these notions alien to the tradition? Should we call such notions non musical, zero to do with music?

Now don't ask me what are we doing here conversing in English! As long as the use of the language is not invasive I guess it may be ok!. But then the only language of use has to be the one we use for Accounting, legal and science - no? Tamizh proponents already are trying to restore tamizh as a legal language in the high court - without much success.

They were also asking for it to be a language of worship - but does that help much? We instead worship English the language itself. Court language?! Does that explain why we have ghazhals up north and tyAgarAja down south?

That also kind of tells us when Sanskrit lived really? When the brahman was giving out his nyAya in the nyAya manTapa! Now it has only a meta-physical existence.

Coming back to the earlier notions - are they native to English Language or it's ecosystem originally? If no, where did they come from? When such invasions are done, is when we mostly have to digress to attack it from various angles. So we don't create non-musical topics here - it is thrust upon us.

I would say in defense of English use: As a language that has expanded into various domains, it has accreted to itself the necessary gravity that it behooves upon us to impute notions that are native to our languages into it. English has converted itself into a language mostly - where as ours are all not just languages - they are ecosystems! What I mean by that is, one could know the English language to a good enough extent without knowing much about the culture of it's origins. It has abstracted itself out, and nothing concrete need be known.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14067

The goal that must be thrust upon Carnatic music is to preserve and continuously enhance and add to the collective memory of its heritage? It is not music in the English sense of the language or in the sense of music in the English language - it is an ecosystem.

RSR
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

@28-> The points made by Sri.Rajeshnat are very well understood. and are valid. I hope that I am not in 'the one or twp' who regularly post stuff unrelated to music. Most of my initial queries were regarding lyrics ( meaning) and ragam identification, especilally for my website work on my favourite vocalists Smt MS, Smt DKP and Smt NCV.
The rules are very clear as stated, that no political ideology or party politics is allowed in threads' topics or posts.Generally, the thread topic is obeying that rule but the posts very often do not.
There are only two options to a reader when such superfluous and supercilious comments are come across. Either to ignore them or to counter them. As the posts are seen by google, not countering, is tantamount to agreeing. So, members who post comments should have restraint not to bring in current party politics into the forum.
As for English Literature, I do agree. I did not envisage such a stout opposition to English literature. All the same, Will Durant is definitely not relevant to this forum.

CM and HM are related to Indian history very closely.
Excluding Religion and spirituality from discussion is not that easy. because as I have mentioned many times, CM is inextricably based on Hindu religion, especially Vaishnavam. Singing with bhaavam requires empathy with the core values. Being an admirer of one religion does not mean hatred or animosity to other religions. Smt MS was a shining example
Even in general discussion, so long as there are no derogatory comments, it is harmless. We can avoid negative posts. That would do. Thanks

There is a site known as 'good reads'.
' Rasikas', need not be performers.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14067
Thank you shankarank. It was a very nice writeup. The discussion still goes on.
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Can someone explain the note on Purandharadasa? in that post?
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Lengthy posts can be placed in personal blog or websites and links can be given here, as Arasi madam has suggested, . It gives freedom for the writer to 'edit' the material when needed.
As for Literature section in languages, how many of the posts are related to music or CM? I surmise that though there are people from Kerala, Karanataka and Andhra here, mostly , the forumites are from Tamilnadu but quite a few of them more conversant with English that with their mother tongue. They cannot read Tamil, having lived in USA for a very long time. They need transliteration!

sankark
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Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 12:43 Excluding Religion and spirituality from discussion is not that easy. because as I have mentioned many times, CM is inextricably based on Hindu religion, especially Vaishnavam. Singing with bhaavam requires empathy with the core values
Right now am listening to a madurApuri nilayE manivalayE from the Musiri Chamber concert for Mar 2018. Exactly what is the religious connection to gamagakriya (or) this line. This line could mean any woman - from pEdhai all the way to pEriLampen* or beyond in age - in the city of madurA that sports a gemset bangle.

If you believe religion/spirituality is intrinsic to CM, so be it in your universe. That doesn't preclude those that don't see either in CM to be aficionados or connoiseurs. As mentioned in another thread, you see what you seek.

* for non-tamilians or those not aware of this, pEdhai, pedhumbai, mangai, madanthai, arivai, therivai, pEriLampen is a classification of female based on age.

I hope google indexes this and this also shows up in the CM is religious/spirituality topic.

RSR
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

@33-> In the ragas section, I have been requesting information about old (vintage) MS and DKP songs. The songs and lyrics are not related to Religion. . So, it is not a rigid rule. This is an old topic and there have been excellent posts by rshankar (ravi) long back. Actually, religion has nothing to do with classical music. Long back, I happened to hear a flute recital by Mali ( kamaj). I like that ragam very much and asked my friends about the song being played and was told that it was 'apadhooru' . Only later on I came to know of the lyrics and theme of the song. Sometimes, I wonder if it is not better not to know the language/lyrics/meaning/theme of musical compositions. There are many hindi film tunes by Lata in classical ragams. The lyrics may not be all that good. Instrumental music is true music.
Any way, the fact remains that right from Haridasa days back in 1400, CM has been intimately connected with Religious devotion. 90% of all the compositions sung are in that category. . Personally, I prefer that cultural ambience.
I find that the younger generation in Tamilnadu villages nowadays are unable to appreciate CM, because of 'secular' upbringing. If they had greater exposure to Dhivya Prabandham and Saivite hymns, perhaps, it will be easier to take CM to them.
In my opinion, Art is a means of self-surrender to something unrelated to ego and libido. The post cited by sankarank is quite exhaustive. To each, his preference.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by Ranganayaki »

sankark wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 14:34
RSR wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 12:43 Excluding Religion and spirituality from discussion is not that easy. because as I have mentioned many times, CM is inextricably based on Hindu religion, especially Vaishnavam. Singing with bhaavam requires empathy with the core values
I agree with RSR from my own (listening) experience.. just knowing the meanings alone helps to bring out bhava better. Understanding deeper layers of meaning makes a deep difference to the rendering.

I was very surprised to see Rajesh's comment that spirituality has "zero overlap" with CM.
If you believe religion/spirituality is intrinsic to CM, so be it in your universe.
This sounds unfriendly and divisive. If you want to have your own interpretation of what CM is, why would you relegate someone with a different interpretation from yours to another universe? It makes no sense. It is as though you would say exactly this to your parents, for example, who, with their experience have a very different view of life from you, would you tell them that their view would be valid in "their universe?" It's a rude thing to say to someone who is inhabiting this forum with you, not collegial at all.
That doesn't preclude those that don't see either in CM to be aficionados or connoiseurs. As mentioned in another thread, you see what you seek.
Yes, that is very true. By the same token, that doesn't preclude those who may see either FROM BEING aficionados or connoisseurs. You don't dismiss them to another planet from yours. We coexist.

Right now am listening to a madurApuri nilayE manivalayE from the Musiri Chamber concert for Mar 2018. Exactly what is the religious connection to gamagakriya (or) this line. This line could mean any woman - from pEdhai all the way to pEriLampen* or beyond in age - in the city of madurA that sports a gemset bangle.
Yes, on the surface, this appears to be true. First, there is no religious connection to the raga Gamakakriya, or any other raga. That said, individuals can certainly develop spiritual connections to any or all ragas. That is purely an individual choice.

But about the line you quoted, it has a context. Taken out of context, what you say could seem valid. It could be any citizen of Madurai, wearing gem-studded bangles. But for an interpretation to be fully valid, you have to look at the whole composition. First of all, what is Dikshitar asking Meenakshi for when he says," Me mudam dehi?" Could it be that Dikshitar is asking some lady called meenakshi for bliss? That sounds a little odd, but possible, why not!! But if you look st the whole composition, as well as the entire body of work of Dikshitar's you will exclude that immediately.

So the context in just this song, is that this lady of Madurai with the bangles is also the "wife" is Shiva (Shiva jAYe), she is also addressed as Sundareshapriye. Mrs. Meenakshi Sundareshwaran now? She is also described as MadhuMuraaripusodari, unless she is the sister of some murderer in Madurai with just these attributes at the time of Dikshitar, you can only interpret this song as being about the goddess of Madurai. It is part of the final words of the song and leaves no more room for doubt.

Dikshitar' lyrics are laden with god names, vedantic terms and spiritual yearning. An interpretation like yours will only be valid if you use individual lines, with all context removed - the composition's own and the wider body of work. It is valid only for you, it cannot be widely accepted as valid. So you are putting yourself in your own little planet, but you are welcome to reside in everyone's - without changing your view about this song.

RSR
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

Supposing that famous krithi is played soulfully in an instrument, say veeNaa, or flute, or violin or nagaswaram and a rasika listens to it and likes it, without knowing the composer or ragam or theme or anything except the ragam, .. and gets touched, that is the soul of pure music. . When Smt.MS sings that glorious song, and when the listener knows about the composer, theme, the spiritual significance, it adds to our unforgettable experience.
(gamakakriya -> poorvikalyanNi)
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https://youtu.be/qki_U_i-At4
upload by Bala Girish
Please read the comments too.
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One may ask, what if I do not have that background of religion, language and biography of Dikshithar... It is indeed a loss . to get the maximum from CM, such awareness helps and do we not have great musicians and rasikas of CM from other religions who excel the average CM listener in this aspect? I had such friends who knew more!
Last edited by RSR on 20 Mar 2018, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

sankark
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by sankark »

Ranganayaki wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 20:41
sankark wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 14:34
RSR wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 12:43 Excluding Religion and spirituality from discussion is not that easy. because as I have mentioned many times, CM is inextricably based on Hindu religion, especially Vaishnavam. Singing with bhaavam requires empathy with the core values
I agree with RSR from my own (listening) experience.. just knowing the meanings alone helps to bring out bhava better. Understanding deeper layers of meaning makes a deep difference to the rendering.

I was very surprised to see Rajesh's comment that spirituality has "zero overlap" with CM.
If you believe religion/spirituality is intrinsic to CM, so be it in your universe.
This sounds unfriendly and divisive. If you want to have your own interpretation of what CM is, why would you relegate someone with a different interpretation from yours to another universe? It makes no sense.
That doesn't preclude those that don't see either in CM to be aficionados or connoiseurs. As mentioned in another thread, you see what you seek.
Yes, that is very true. By the same token, that doesn't preclude those who may see either FROM BEING aficionados or connoisseurs. You don't dismiss them to another planet from yours. We coexist.

https://twitter.com/ASmallFiction/statu ... 5118642181 - thats what came to my mind.

"in your universe" simply meant "for you". Nothing more. Nothing less.

I could have a RTP in kIrvAni that goes like "eLLuppodi kalavandam kaththirikkAi kArAmanikkUttu, aahA iNaiyuNdo" in sankIrNa nadai misra jhampai, and if you see religion/spirituality in that too, you are welcome. And I can all be in my own universe with those objects in that pallavi for lunch :

Non-tamilians - please ignore those words; just some random string about, food :D

sankark
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by sankark »

And I was listening to aduvum solluvAL @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVpYKkAgObo when I read your response.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by Ranganayaki »

https://twitter.com/ASmallFiction/statu ... 5118642181 - thats what came to my mind

What is the original quote they are quarreling about?? The person interpreting seems malicious! So may be it came to your mind, but it doesn't really fit!! Surely you agree that there are better ways to mean "for you" 😉😉 than "in your universe!" But let's move on!
I could have a RTP in kIrvAni that goes like "eLLuppodi kalavandam kaththirikkAi kArAmanikkUttu, I could have a RTP in kIrvAni that goes like "eLLuppodi kalavandam kaththirikkAi kArAmanikkUttu, aahA iNaiyuNdo" in sankIrNa nadai misra jhampai, and if you see religion/spirituality in that too, you are welcome. And I can all be in my own universe with those objects in that pallavi for lunch :" in sankIrNa nadai misra jhampai, and if you see religion/spirituality in that too, you are welcome. And I can all be in my own universe with those objects in that pallavi for lunch :
Instead of
aahA iNaiyuNdo"
couldn't it have been "ayye nannave illai??"

Why did you automatically think it had to be aha inaiyundo? - That is the nature of the compositions in CM. The intention of the composers is to elevate or purify their lives, and their songs reflect that. That is spirituality.

It depends on what you are saying CM is. If you look at it as mainly an abstraction, then it's just sound and notes and combinations with rules. But if you say that carnatic music includes the compositions, then you cannot say that the music is purely musical. It encompasses many facets of life, with a special leaning towards the spiritual or philosophical.

It would be very difficult to say that the music does not include the compositions as raga swaroopa comes to a large extent from the phraseology within compositions.

So the characteristics of the compositions will define the characteristics of the music. So unlike you, I cannot say that CM is purely secular, but I can say that it may be secular, or devotional.

About enjoyment, there are many layers to the music, and you don't need to know the meaning of the composition to enjoy the music. But an understanding of the meaning can lead to enjoyment at a different level. Sometimes there are layers of meaning and appreciating that increases the enjoyment of the music. It can change performance too. So if a listening experience can give you enjoyment of the sound, as well as an insight into the composer's experience of devotion, spiritual yearning, or faith, being aware of that later may bring you an added level of enjoyment of the MUSIC. And if you resonate to it yourself.. !!!

It can bring added depth to the performance. It is not necessary, one can perform CM without that depth, but listeners who have experienced that depth will compare their experiences and you will fall short. Performers have to live with that. Mostly they won't even know!!! That's the thing about spirituality. As you said, you find what you seek. Just don't deny that some people experience more.

kvchellappa
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by kvchellappa »

The kritis sung preponderate in bhakti. A majority of singers and rasikas indulge in it.
What is the argument? Is it that bhakti is not necessary for CM? It depends on what bhakti means. If you enjoy singing or listening forcefully tearing yourself away from the sentiment of bhakti embedded in the lyrics, go ahead by all means.
If you argue that bhakti vitiates CM, you must think twice. You may still come to the same conclusion and it must snowball into a movement to create CM repertoire devoid of all religious context (substituting Christian or Muslim idioms is not the way forward). When CM is so purified, we must see how authentic CM is as CM. It may be. But, we are yet to see it. The present generation may not have the good luck to experience it. One oho kalame, thunbam nerkaiyil, etc. will not bear it out, nor someone straining to the utmost singing without bhakti (actually the training is such that vestiges of bhakti ooze in their singing).
A westerner said that music is basically drawing on religious ethos.
Music creates a longing to belong beyond the secular and mundane, to something abstract and ethereal. Spirituality is just that. It is how human beings evolve as thinking and feeling beings. Surely, the certainty attached to a form of faith or deity is a fixation, but the longing is for true.

sureshvv
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 08:20 Music creates a longing to belong beyond the secular and mundane, to something abstract and ethereal. Spirituality is just that. It is how human beings evolve as thinking and feeling beings. Surely, the certainty attached to a form of faith or deity is a fixation, but the longing is for true.
It is actually for death (as eternal peace) but it has many unfortunate connotations.

shankarank
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 22:07 I could have a RTP in kIrvAni that goes like "eLLuppodi kalavandam kaththirikkAi kArAmanikkUttu, aahA iNaiyuNdo" in sankIrNa nadai misra jhampai, and
Ranganayaki wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 23:33 Instead of
aahA iNaiyuNdo"
couldn't it have been "ayye nannave illai??"
Let me refine that a bit. We have to bring a child's eye view (inspired by Bharathiar thread) - but we keep arguing as adults. The line by sankark is just a retort and is too specific. If a culture of people are inspired by that line and they pass it on down, as a cherished item and a child is able to take it as timeless thing through it's life, then that becomes a sacred item.

I am using the term "sacred" as minimal as "cherished as tradition" and it can extend to things divine. God making technology started like this. If food is inspiring on the one hand, annam is also celebrated as sacred from which puruSha arises.

Sanskritists carried the sense of sacred too far and looked at this kind of language as beneath them. So you don't see it in compositions of CM. The tamizh compositions are also Sanskritized form only.

Ok "sankark" specially for you. in kamalA-manOhari - broken Sanskrit ( to be fixed by experts in the forum!)

simple khaNDa tripuTa - samam on the little finger :

|| (4) kAncI kRta cInAmSukAmbarA | (7) pAtra racita rasama-|| ti rucira

>>> || (4) kAncI vyuta cInAmSukAmbarA | (7) pAtra racita rasama-|| ti rucira

>>> || (3) kAncI tAnva cInAmSukAmbarA | (6) pAtra racita rasama-|| ti rucira

Inspired by a thread titled eeyacchombu/kanchipuram in the old forum!

And rasam is too abstract when considering the umpteen concrete varieties of it ;)
Last edited by shankarank on 20 Mar 2018, 18:52, edited 2 times in total.

RSR
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Re: Scope of General Discussions

Post by RSR »

This is about 'first hand experience' .. Great many forum members are professionals not connected with the music 'industry'. Dr.Pasupathy is a famous professor emeritus in Engg. and his posts in the forum are not related to his profession but more to his other cultural interests like literature and collecting old copies of magazines and digitizing them. There are many such articles with bearing on music, especially CM. and he has his own blog and is simply giving links for readers to follow if interested.
Sri.MKR( let me add that I respect him deeply for his close connection with Smt.MSS and Sri.TS and as such his recollections about that noble family through his mother and closest friend of Smt MS will be priceless but I am not too sure that his reminiscences of his professional experience in English book publishing industry can have any connection with CM. Best suited for lounge.

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