Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

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shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

Well I am responding to a poster here. As I have stated, many times we don't know the feelings and limitations of artistes, lets given them the benefit of doubt. I would rather focus on what else is communicated by her.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by kvchellappa »

Pantula Rama's lovable response in FB:
"Namaste !
There are three kings (Rajus) who rule the field of Telugu Literature -Potaraju (Bammera Potana), Goparaju (Kancharla Gopanna/Bhadrachala Ramadasu) and Tyagaraju (Kakarla Tyagaraju). They are referred as the 3 Rajus very fondly, lovingly and with utmost reverence. However Sri Tyagaraju continues to be addressed as Tyagayya, Ayyagaru, Tyagaraja, Tyaga Brahmam, Tyagaraja Swami Saint or Sant Tyagaraja etc. I hope this answers the queries raised by some readers and we can move on to the primary objective of the open letter- to make a very genuine and necessary change in the way Sādhinchenē is sung."
It is inappropriate (to use mild language) to expect that everyone should follow the Tamizh convention.
Hope rasikas will move on.

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

Graceful she is...
Luckily, she didn't address her angst about how telugu sometimes sounds when those who don't know the language sing our beloved Rama bhaktha's songs.
Graceful she is...
Once again, happy new year to her and to all!

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

The last paragraph gives me pause. Hope she does not conclude that these cranks represent the Tamilian view.

Sundara Rajan
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sundara Rajan »

My two cents worth on the name controversy: Raja is a sanskrit word-
Raja, Rajanow, Rajanah:
Just as Rama in Sanskrit becomes Ramar in Tamil , Sanskrit Raja in Telugu may be Raju( I do not profess to know Telugu) and hence does not reflect any disrespect.

RajagOpAlAchAri was "too mouthful" for a Gujarati ( as Americans would refer to my original name "Sundararajan" ) and hence Gandhi made it "Raja" and added the Hindi honor suffix "ji" and made him "RAjAji" !

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

kvchellappa wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 09:17 Pantula Rama's lovable response in FB:
"Namaste !
There are three kings (Rajus) who rule the field of Telugu Literature -Potaraju (Bammera Potana), Goparaju (Kancharla Gopanna/Bhadrachala Ramadasu) and Tyagaraju (Kakarla Tyagaraju). They are referred as the 3 Rajus very fondly, lovingly and with utmost reverence. However Sri Tyagaraju continues to be addressed as Tyagayya, Ayyagaru, Tyagaraja, Tyaga Brahmam, Tyagaraja Swami Saint or Sant Tyagaraja etc. I hope this answers the queries raised by some readers and we can move on to the primary objective of the open letter- to make a very genuine and necessary change in the way Sādhinchenē is sung."
It is inappropriate (to use mild language) to expect that everyone should follow the Tamizh convention.
Hope rasikas will move on.
So good of her to clarify this. And the explanation is satisfactory - so all good now.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

HarishankarK wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 19:43 - so all good now.
Done and dusted? :twisted: :lol: True for Smt. Pantula Rama. But not yourself. What is the denomination of your Church ( now don't read this too literally, wilya?! ;) ) - which teaches all this "how to address the greats - stuff"? If you say it is not a Church , but culture, then there many diverse ones. So you need to be able to understand and talk across - and not impose your ideas on others! The latter is what Churches tend to do. They created this subaltern theory where they have to go and emancipate and civilize them!
Last edited by shankarank on 25 Mar 2018, 00:26, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 09:33 The last paragraph gives me pause. Hope she does not conclude that these cranks represent the Tamilian view.
Your sentence gives me a pause too. There is lot of confusion about "tamizh" identity now. It is being reduced to some imaginary substrate onto which new concoctions can be added and then the substrate can be made invisible! May be some of the posts here are symptoms of those under currents!

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

shankarank wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 00:06
HarishankarK wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 19:43 - so all good now.
Done and dusted? :twisted: :lol: True for Smt. Pantula Rama. But not yourself. What is the denomination of your Church ( now don't read this too literally, wilya?! ;) ) - which teaches all this "how to address the greats - stuff"? If you say it is not a Church , but culture, then there many diverse ones. So you need to be able to understand and talk across - and not impose your ideas on others! The latter is what Churches tend to do. They created this subaltern theory where they have to go and emancipate and civilize them!
Boss - what's ur problem now? Pantula Rama ji could have ignored our points here but she did not - instead she has clarified and that's perfect - we now know that as per Telugu stds. no disrespect has been done. Which is good.
In a public forum you cannot address someone according to Telugu parlance - everyone does not know Telugu way of speaking and what is respectful or not in Telugu. So it was raised that the addressing could have been done a bit better as the request is in English and not Telugu and it is going to carnatic music fraternity.

As you see in her words there is no apology or regret - we have not imposed anything - no apology is required - its clear now that as she has clarified the parlance in which she wrote.
Better to leave this matter and focus now on what's the subject of her request.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

HarishankarK wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 02:43 In a public forum you cannot address someone according to Telugu parlance
As I said we are done and dusted with Smt Pantula Rama. So don't bring her in anymore. We are focusing on you now! Where is the above rule written? If you don't understand telugu, how do you know "tyagaraju " is disrespectful?

rshankar
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by rshankar »

ShankaranK - that’s a question for the poster who initially felt it was disrespectful....the poster who, in his/her dealings had been as respectful as Brutus was honorable....

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

Well the second poster also joined in and now makes a statement that implies there has been lack of respect. And he is the one talking now.

As regards the style of addressing in the world of tamizh, if you have heard the paTTimanRams, kambar is addressed as kamban, valluvar is addressed as valluvan , as in valluvan kUTru etc.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

shankarank wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 04:18
HarishankarK wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 02:43 In a public forum you cannot address someone according to Telugu parlance
As I said we are done and dusted with Smt Pantula Rama. So don't bring her in anymore. We are focusing on you now! Where is the above rule written? If you don't understand telugu, how do you know "tyagaraju " is disrespectful?
Do you know English and Telugu are two different language?

Anyways I don't hv any more time for this. My decree stands and I am very satisfied with explanation given. You can go on posting .....I will ignore any further posts from u on this matter.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

You cannot ask a question and say I will not listen to your answer. Then don't ask it and post anything.

In English parlance what is the respectful way? Mr tyAgarAja or Mr Kakarla? or Sir tyAgarAja or tyAgaraja saar?

nanosadagopan
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by nanosadagopan »

In my earmest appeal to Vidushi Smt Pantula Rama, I lay here my humble opinioin: Carnatic music needs some refreshing changes to the way its music is performed, and when the changes revert to original ways of singing, it's all the more better (reverting to singing swarasahityas suffixed by Sadhinchane rather than the now prevalent Samayaniki). I completely share her concerns. It's my humble request to Smt Rama to.take up the lead and be the role model - your statutre and wide appeal to the next generation will be a pioneer in bringing the much needed transformational changes.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by kvchellappa »

She must also be a role model for how to focus on the theme and not on bigoted views on decorum.
'My decree stands'? This is not a court and no one is a judge. Nothing stands. Everything passes. Even the plea to change the way Sadhinchane is sung will pass.
Any request to Smt Pantula Rama, a graceful and classic singer, must be posted where she will notice it. Any point of order about her writing also must go there if the idea is to understand.
No apology was due in any case from her. Possibly, we owe her an apology.


arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

Meditative, meaningfully sung, no accompanists--though one is ready at hand :) Making a statement, so agreeably, from her own home (?). Even the 'samayAniki tagu mATalADEvADu appears while she sings, playing his silent flute ;)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

I enjoyed it too, and she is very convincing.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

We discussed her book in this thread ( yati maitri and chanda prAsa). sAdhincenE goes well in terms of dIRgha with most caraNams.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30597

And yes it is indeed convincing, samaya -> amarica -> vimukula -> tamasamAdi for dvitiyAkshara and
samaya -> sadbhaktula, amarica -> aluka , vimukula -> veta kalikina , tamasamAdi -> tyAgaraja for EkAkshara.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Muhana and praasam in the charanam is independent of pallavi and anupallavi. It means, the second or first letter in the charanam(s) need not rhyme with sadinchane or samayaniki. Refer to the divya nama keerthanam of the Saint for better understanding.
Also, I wonder on the use of the word anubandam here. Why the last charanam is to be called an anubandam?
Anubandam is used only in the case of varanam, a detailed charanam sung at the end of ettukada svaram. She also interlude the last charanam with samayaniki. This makes her valuable effort useless.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 16:15 She also interlude the last charanam with samayaniki. This makes her valuable effort useless.
It is impossible to understand your meaning. Interlude is not an action and cannot be used as a verb in your sentence. Please rewrite, expressing only what you meant.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Thanks for your correction.. If you cannot understand, leave it.

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

arasi wrote: 26 Mar 2018, 18:39 Meditative, meaningfully sung
Ninnu joochi madiri varala :D

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 21:10 If you cannot understand, leave it.
It's not about me, Bhaktim. You wrote here because you wanted to communicate something to most of us here, but I'm afraid your purpose is not served. In addition, if we all have to "leave it," as you say, then your conclusion that follows is orphaned and cannot be validated. Anyway you have contradicted yourself: valuable effort that is also useless!??!
bhakthim dehi wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 16:15
Also, I wonder on the use of the word anubandam here. Why the last charanam is to be called an anubandam?
Anubandam is used only in the case of varanam, a detailed charanam sung at the end of ettukada svaram.
I guess it is called an anubandham because it is an add-on after all the charanams. It cannot be called a charanam on the same footing as the others because it does not have the explicit swaras. Calling it an anubandham would distinguish it from the other charanams and give it a status of its own and a suitable name as an anga of the composition.

She also interlude the last charanam with samayaniki. This makes her valuable effort useless.
No matter what you might mean there, she does nothing to the last charanam with Samayaniki. She sings the last charanam, returns to pallavi and then proceeds to the anubandham, the first line of which is "Samayaniki..."

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

Even when they refrained on "samayaniki .." , after the last but one charanam ( sri venkatEsa) they will return to that same line and continue with "sadbhaktula.." anyways! So what is different now? That part kind of remains the same!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 09:36 Even when they refrained on "samayaniki .." , after the last but one charanam ( sri venkatEsa) they will return to that same line and continue with "sadbhaktula.." anyways! So what is different now? That part kind of remains the same!

Though that appears to be the same thing, it is not. In the old version samayaniki was repeated with all the charanams, as it was with the last one. So the anubandham stanza seems to start with “sadbhaktula” and seems to stand alone, following the last repetition of “samayaniki.” The impression we all have always had was that sadbhaktula was a fresh stanza.

But in this new version, it’s the pallavi that is repeated and finally, samayaniki is heard for the first time, followed by Sadbhaktula. This clearly places samayaniki in a single unit with sadbhaktula.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

It is a fact that when you say Sukku milagu thippili, what you hear is sukkumilaguthippili. If someone interprets it as sukkumi laguthi, etc., it would SOUND correct, but will never be truly correct. You are making that very same kind of false interpretation.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

It's not about me, Bhaktim. You wrote here because you wanted to communicate something to most of us here, but I'm afraid your purpose is not served. In addition,
I can understand your concern. But, allow others to speak for themselves.
I guess it is called an anubandham because it is an add-on after all the charanams. It cannot be called a charanam on the same footing as the others
First of all, try to understand each musical form (geetam, keertanam etc) has a structure and it was followed by our composers.
Leave alone the treatises, we must not change the format formulated by these composers for their krithis. It is their creation and we just use them, even without getting their permission.
Coming back to this anubandam, a krithi can have 1 or more charanam. In the case of a krithi with multiple charanam, the charanam(s), all can have a similar dhathu or they can have different dhathu. In any case, charanam must be suffixed only with a pallavi. Usually, they were composed in such a way that, exact intent of the composer can be perceived only when we sing the charanam and pallavi together.
It is a welcome move that she suffix all the charanam with sadinchane instead of samayaniki. But, calling the last charanam as an anubandam can never be accepted. I do not know the basis on which she does this. I will be very happy if she comes to know about this thread and respond.
This anubandam is seen with certain varnam, wherein a concept said in the charanam (of that varnam)is again expressed, but in an elaborate way in the anubandam. After this anubandam, anupallavi is repeated and then the pallavi is taken.
Just for an argument, if she wants to call the last charanam (sadbhakthulu) as an anubandam, she should have followed the order said above. Then, we can consider she has treated this composition akin to a varnam (Please dont argue on this;I am not saying this should be considered as a varnam, said this for an argument sake regarding the proper use of anubandam).
because it does not have the explicit swaras.
You mean to say the svaras for this charanam sadbhakthulu is same as that of anupallavi and people dont sing this ?
If I am correct, read further. Else the following response is not for you.
It is not at all a practise of singing svaras (separately) in a krithi. I mean singing svaram first and then singing the sahityam. This is done only for svarajathi and varnam. Singing like this itself is an aberration, according to me.
Calling it an anubandham would distinguish it from the other charanams and give it a status of its own and a suitable name as
Why it should be treated differently?
All are charanam with different dhathu.

Instead of believing and supporting the mistakes, I feel we must think and analyse to understand the intent of our composers (if we aim in doing that).
Last edited by bhakthim dehi on 28 Mar 2018, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

Checking the meaning as given at http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html it appears that the popular version seems to convey better the thrust of the song. May be vgovindan sir will comment.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by kvchellappa »

In such cases perhaps we should follow TMK! In any case many people do not know the meaning, including the singers. All of them, however, seem to enjoy the music.
NSG said in Mudra programme on Vagdeeswari ragam that we do not know how Thyagaraja sang and that he follows what his elders taught him. He is a very traditional musician who takes pains to know the meaning and sing with arthabhava.

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

I can't see why we would change this unless it is horribly wrong somehow as it is. From the meaning of the lyrics, the popular version seems to be closer to the overall theme in the song.

MaheshS
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by MaheshS »

TMK this morning posted a research article by Prof Ramanathan in Facebook regarding this, the paper explains in detail why Samayanikita is correct and there is no need to change how we sing it in response too Smt Pantula Rama. I can't get Facebook from work, will try and post the article later tonight.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 18:16 Checking the meaning as given at http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html it appears that the popular version seems to convey better the thrust of the song. May be vgovindan sir will comment.
My posts have only been responses to comments about form. I am generally aware of the meanings, from various sources on the web, but the distinction regarding meaning is too fine for me and I am unable to comment. PR has not given any arguments about meaning, so I am not discussing meaning. But about what is in this webpage, my impression is that it simply follows current practice, what is being sung, without thought having been given to what should be, regarding form.

I see that this source, which I can also access in the Krithibook app, says "Charanam" after the Anupallavi, and inexplicably includes only the single line "Samayaniki...," but then after all the Swara Sahityas, it repeats the sub-heading Charanam and, under this, includes the whole charanam, which PR calls anubandham. But this charanam begins not with "Sadbhaktula," but with "Samayaniki," in line with what PR says regarding the final stanza.

This is the reason I feel not much thought has been given to form. There is no reason in this case to have two sub-headings that say Charanam or to repeat what has already been classified under the first subheading of Charanam and put it back under the second sub-heading, "Charanam." So I feel this text just follows current practice and is not an authority. But it does seem to agree with PR about what the full text of the final stanza is, and that the line does belong there.

It is interesting that all the other "charanams" as we have been calling them, do not come under the headings Charanam 1,2,3, etc., but Swarasahitya 1, 2, etc.

Would welcome any Telugu speaker's input regarding meaning, including Sri Govindan's. I wish PR will add her meaning-related arguments, since she already has them in her mind, but she has not indicated that she will be back with those.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 16:11

Instead of believing and supporting the mistakes, I feel we must think and analyse to understand the intent of our composers (if we aim in doing that).

How would you know that it is analysis and not believing and supporting mistakes?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

MaheshS wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 21:27 TMK this morning posted a research article by Prof Ramanathan in Facebook regarding this, the paper explains in detail why Samayanikita is correct and there is no need to change how we sing it in response too Smt Pantula Rama. I can't get Facebook from work, will try and post the article later tonight.
Thank you for the info, I looked at it.

vgovindan
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by vgovindan »

sureshvv wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 18:16 Checking the meaning as given at http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html it appears that the popular version seems to convey better the thrust of the song. May be vgovindan sir will comment.
Suresh,
You may please refer to my comments as posted in the blog -

"Comments -
1 – sAdhincenE – The word has been translated as ‘had His say’ and ‘maintained’ depending on the construction of sentence.

At the end of the kRti, SrI tyAgarAja mentions how the Lord ‘had His say’ – ‘centa rAkanE’ – without coming near – in spite of all the prayers etc. SrI tyAgarAja cites examples of the Lord’s behaviour in the svara sAhityas. Therefore, SrI tyAgarAja implies that this is usual for the Lord to behave so with devotees."

vgovindan
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by vgovindan »

Ranganayaki,
I have not gone beyond the versions of the kRti as given in various books referred by me. However, strictly from the point of view of meaning, neither all svara sAhityas would deserve to be called a sub-set of 'samayAniki'. By the same token, a few svara sAhityas do not deserve to be attached to 'sAdhincenE'. It all depends whether proponents and oppnenents want to be 'sAdhincenE' - (out to prove one's point).

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

If looked at from Ramayana perspective - "samayAniki tagu mATa lADanE" and "sAdhincene" take positive meanings. I remembered my something I had heard as regards Sankarabhashya on the nAmA : sumukhah

Image

With krishna avataram they may make a different : playful sense. So it depends on which.

Dr Ramanathan's meaning as regards sadhincene with respect to tamizh country is not convincing. In several colloquial tongues "sAdhikkirAn" is used in the sense of "piDitta piDiyil nirkirAn". This meaning and sense will be appropriate to krishna avatar.

I would let the Chanda maitri decide the choice of the passage. And that favors sAdhincene. In Indian terms prosody is not just about letters, it is further below that at the level of meter. Meter is the beautifying aspect of prosody - with it's long and shorts. Hence meter is feminine also.

sankark
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sankark »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 16:11 This anubandam is seen with certain varnam, wherein a concept said in the charanam (of that varnam)is again expressed, but in an elaborate way in the anubandam. After this anubandam, anupallavi is repeated and then the pallavi is taken.
With all due respect to your erudition and passion, that isn't what tradition/sampradaya is. It evolves.

pazhayana kazhidhalum pudhiyana pugudhalum vazhuvala kAla vagaiyinAnE (tis but with time the old gets cast off and the new comes in). Some wise guy wrote this about 1000 years ago.

So this new and old co-existing and at times with same word but totally opposite meanings or tangential meanings or somewhat related meanings/ways/procedures gives us so much research time; will give so much quality research time for future rasikas community and will keep this board thriving eons more :)

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes sir. I do accept, evolution happens in every field and art is of no exception. Also, I am not against trying out new things. We must try to improvise and innovate to make life interesting.
But these trials must not be done on the property of others. Just imagine, if everyone try doing this, we will not have any relics of old tradition. Also, we will be failing in our duty to transfer these treasures untouched to the future generation. On the other side, future generation will have nothing to learn from our works.
Let me give an example. Instead of trying with sadinchane, an eminent musician can compose a krithi with 10 or 12 charanam, incorporating the elements of jati, svaram and also anubandam. It will be a new musical form and you can also name it to your wish. Nothing harm in doing this and our tradition never restricted you in doing that. If you are successful, this will become a standard.
Let me raise a question. What is the reason for present day musician's to stick on to the krithi format laid down by Tyagarajar or Deekshithar? Why are we not seeing any innovations in the krithi format? They can very well show their talents in this area.
As I said, only an eminent musician can do this. So either we must develop skills to try that or better preserve what we have inherited (even these have changed a lot; at least let's preserve what we have it in hand now).
Believe me, once we start learning the nuances in prosody, chandas, raga lakshanam, aspects of tala etc, we will be awestruck with the competency of our predecessors and will not touch their works.

sankark
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sankark »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 11:00
Let me raise a question. What is the reason for present day musician's to stick on to the krithi format laid down by Tyagarajar or Deekshithar? Why are we not seeing any innovations in the krithi format? They can very well show their talents in this area.
Errrr, weren't they following muthuththAndavar's format? Or one of the other moovar?

Anyways, to answer your question - because nothing better or people aren't that interested in building something new, yet. So when that comes up and gains acceptance, the current krithi format will become dated.

Sadbhakthi12
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Joined: 27 Feb 2018, 07:19

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sadbhakthi12 »

Better PR and TMK will discuss this offline and if required set a meeting and get the concurrence of other vidwans and then finally issue the correct manner to sing as an article in the Hindu
so that it will be recorded for posterity

This to and fro dilly dallying is not a mark of respect for carnatic music

Someone has mentioned here that nothing is certain about Tyagaraja krithis - this is sad but true

Sadbhakthi12
Posts: 23
Joined: 27 Feb 2018, 07:19

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sadbhakthi12 »

Better PR and TMK will discuss this offline and if required set a meeting and get the concurrence of other vidwans and then finally issue the correct manner to sing as an article in the Hindu
so that it will be recorded for posterity

This to and fro dilly dallying is not a mark of respect for carnatic music

Someone has mentioned here that nothing is certain about Tyagaraja krithis - this is sad but true

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by vgovindan »

Sadbhakti,
What difference does it make to one like TMK who says those who want artha bhAva to visit bhajan mandali - whether it is samayAniki or sAdhincenE when these are only fillers in the rAga metre?

It is a matter of regret that those for whom the purpose of music - communication - has become irrelevant should be in the commanding heights to decide what is right with tyAgarara kRtis. It is not that there is nothing wrong with the kRtis, but then the mutilations were contributions of musicians.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sadbhakthi,
Our music is not only for musicians to sit and ponder. It's for everyone of us. It s up to an individual to learn or what he learns.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sankark,
If not for Purandaradasar, Annamacharya or the Sirkazhi muvar, we would ve left with only prabandham and geetham.
If not for Thyagarajar, we would ve left with multiple charanam with a same dhathu or divya nama sankeertanam.
Its Deekshithar 's innovation to compose krithis with pallavi and anupallavi format (so called samasti charanam krithis).
They haven't changed the format of prabandham saying it as an innovation or evolution. This is where creativity comes. They were the adherents of tradition and are also good creators. We should learn this form them.

Sadbhakthi12
Posts: 23
Joined: 27 Feb 2018, 07:19

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sadbhakthi12 »

vgovindan wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 12:15 Sadbhakti,
What difference does it make to one like TMK who says those who want artha bhAva to visit bhajan mandali - whether it is samayAniki or sAdhincenE when these are only fillers in the rAga metre?

It is a matter of regret that those for whom the purpose of music - communication - has become irrelevant should be in the commanding heights to decide what is right with tyAgarara kRtis. It is not that there is nothing wrong with the kRtis, but then the mutilations were contributions of musicians.
I definitley think TMK and other musicians/musicologists are much better qualified to talk about and decide on Tyagaraja kritis than u and me.
What if what u think to be mutilations are the correct way of the compositions? Based on TMK's report (which I perused)- looks like PR is mistaken.

Sadbhakthi12
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Joined: 27 Feb 2018, 07:19

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sadbhakthi12 »

How has Balamuralikrishna garu sung this - let us follow that way - he was a scholar and also from Telugu background - I think we shd go with his version

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by kvchellappa »

Let musicians sing and let us enjoy. That is the way music is alive. Let there be two opposite views. That is the way life itself is alive. It is better to be in tune with times rather than try to pride on having proved a point!

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