Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Apr 2018, 08:17

Consideration about the soul level was aDi maTTam (the bottom level) when the akku vERu ANi vERu (take apart, analyze to the nth degree) process took place. In all this, Panthula Rama will stay the same fine artiste she is. I can't imagine a derisive or agitated look on her face. She is not going to go on a protest march on this. Music is her business, and she will continue in the same dignified manner in which she's been conducting herself all these years, I presume...

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Apr 2018, 08:39

I must mention that Smt. PR has made a scholarly, cogent, elegant presentation. Her English is as delectable as her music, measured, to the point, definitive, but not overassertive, as some of us are prone to.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Apr 2018, 09:50

Hopefully she will change her mind on this

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Apr 2018, 09:56

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑03 Apr 2018, 02:38 Yes. no one else has given their own personal responses to to PR. Everyone lets VG speak and then they agree.

You seem to be focused on writing rather than reading. Almost all have given our personal preference, which is why this debate is past its 10th page. VG speaks for the composer.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2018, 10:18

sureshvv wrote: ↑03 Apr 2018, 09:56

You seem to be focused on writing rather than reading. Almost all have given our personal preference, which is why this debate is past its 10th page. VG speaks for the composer.

You haven’t read me with care. I know you all have expressed your preference. That’s how I know which side you are all on!! What I said was that no one has given their personal response to PR . I’m pasting it back from your own post for you to read.

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑03 Apr 2018, 02:38 Yes. no one else has given their own personal responses to to PR. Everyone lets VG speak and then they agree.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2018, 10:49

Thank you for that nice post, KVC. I would like take a shot your points 4 and 6.

4. It cannot be in a teasing sense. I guess you mean he is teasing the lord. That cannot be right because he is not addressing the lord. He is addressing his own Manas throughout the song. (“O Manasa”)

Further, samayaniki is part of the charanam which has many other lines. It’s meaning HAS to be in concordance with the sense of the rest of the charanam.

The charanam expresses his love for the lord, who responds aptly to him at various circumstances of life, yet torments (saadhinchane) him by forever staying apart and never showing himself to him. (Thyagarajanutudu centa rakane saadhinchane, O Manasa)

6. The world will not come to an end either way. If we sing it wrong, we will be singing / blabbering something absurd in the context of Thyagaraja aradhana.

I have nothing against two versions of Thyagaraja. But each version should be of good quality, should stand up to scrutiny. If the meaning of a version doesn’t hold up, it should be discarded. The problem is people within groups have to reach a consensus. It can’t happen without open minds. That’s all I have clamored for this whole time, having stated where I stand: truly open minds and a real discussion.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 03 Apr 2018, 11:38

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote: ↑20 Mar 2018, 21:25 My take on SADINCHENE based on LGJ's explanation/rationale for not using SAMAYANIKI(he agreed with Pantulu Rama's point):

Acc to LGJ,singing repeatedly Samayaniki Taku Matalaa(implies that Lord Rama is "fickle"(this is too strong a word I admit for want of a better way of expressing!!)- as if Lord Rama is prone to -changing his stance to suit the occasion--which could not have been intended by the Saint--probably he meant to convey a mild form of NINDASTUTHI,but repetition of the phrase would appear to reinforce WHAT he did not intend.

Also I have a question. on one of the lines in this krithi;
According to ALATHUR Bros there was one more swaram/sahitya phrase-SA SA DA PA MA GA RI RI Ma Ga RI RI. SA RI SA SA DA SA RI (Sarasaksshulu Sanakasa Nandana--apologies if I have "butchered" the lyrics portion!!). AT the Thiruvaiyaru festival they used to insist on singing the line in the chorus but the rest of the Senior Vidwans used to refrain from singing the swarm/sahitya. I doubt if any of the current musicians follow this.

RAVI SRI, any comment on this from the Dhanammal School???

I am not familiar with telugu, but melodically, rhythmically, grammatically, and even the meaning of the words, it sounds off - even in context, there's no way that line should belong there, when the charanams before and after it deal with Krishna's activities.

Saadinchane is about Krishna first, before moving on to Rama and Venkateshwara. It's almost like he's comparing their characteristics, with Krishna being the divine cheater.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Apr 2018, 13:45

This kRti is all about kRshNAvatAra. Any reference to rAma and veNkaTESa are simply incidental. Such references to other names are available in the kRtis in praise of rAma also.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 03 Apr 2018, 18:48

I once heard, in the 1980s a lecdem by SRJ at the MA, on the topic of ragas handled by T and MD. He digressed and expressed the opinion that samayAniki tagu mATalADEnE was not appropriate for a few stanzas that describe Rama and that it was appropriate only for those stanzas in the song that described Krishna. Later, in 2007, when I met him at his house, I asked him about it and he said the same thing. Rama cannot be accused of samyAniki tagu.... but Krishna can be. Witness His machinations and his double talk before, during and after the Mahabharata war. Personally, I tend to agree with SRJ. sAdinchEnE can be used for all the stanzas but samayAniki can be used only for those that speak for Krishna. SRJ knew Telugu very well as he had lived in Tirupati for a long time, serving as professor of music at the University there.

My earlier appeal to musicians such as Pantula Rama remain, i.e., they should restore the original versions of all songs that have been changed and mutilated. And not be selective about it.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 03 Apr 2018, 22:02

samayAniki tagu mATalADEnE was not appropriate for a few stanzas that describe Rama

I think same argument was put forward by Smt Pantula Rama in her FB page.
people who have read the krithis of Saint Tyagaraja and understood him properly will never commit such a statement. I will cite few examples to attest this.
When we try to understand meaning of any sahitya, an attempt must be made in two ways : 1- direct word to word translation and 2 - underlying philosophical meaning.
We have no rights to make any comment that the composer would have not mentioned that. Who are we to say that?
@Ranganayaki - You criticized V Govindan that he made some comments against Pantula Rama. But you have missed she has done the same against the composer. She has basically not analysed the krithis of the Saint.

Let me come back to the point. Saint visualized Sri Ramachandra and Sri Krishna as a single Supreme power. He use these names synonymously. There are many examples. I will cite one.

1. Adigi sukhamulu in Madhyamavathi. The meaning given here is taken from the site of Sri Govindan.

O Lord rAma, the primitive cause! O Lord who is like a crore Suns in destroying the darkness of clinging sins! O Sovereign Lord of the Universe! O Lotus Eyed! O Virtuous One! O Slayer of demons! O Lord residing at ayOdhyA praised by this tyAgarAja!

Has anyone ever enjoyed comforts by entreating You?
(a) sItA asked a boon, and she had to go to the forest;
(b) SUrpanakha asked You to fulfill her desire (of being wife); then and there, she lost her nose;
(c) the famous sage nArada asked for a boon (to know the nature of mAyA); he happened to attain the form of a woman;
(d) sage durvAsa asked (the pANDavas) food; then and there he lost appetite;
(e) dEvaki desired to behold the spectacle (of child-hood sports) of her son; but, it was yaSOda who happened to behold His sports;
(f) gOpis asked for union with the Lord; but they had to abandon their respective husbands.
I do not know whether, having mercy on Your own accord, You would protect me or not; but, Your secrets have been exposed.
What kind of Grand illusion is this?

Look at the illustrations given by the Saint. Do we have any incidence of sage Durvasa meeting Sri Rama ? or any stories linking Devaki and Sri Rama? But, to whom this krithi is addressed to ? Sri Rama !!
Pantula Rama or anyone else is going to argue that the Saint does not know who Sri Rama or who Sri Krishna is ?

Rama cannot be accused of samyAniki tagu.... but Krishna can be.

I will cite another krithi as an example.

2. E mani matladithivo in Todi. The meaning given here is taken from the site of Sri Govindan.

O Lord SrI rAma! O Lord well-praised by this tyAgarAja!
I wonder, in what manner You spoke understanding how each one’s mind is!

In order that everyone – (maternal) uncles, sisters-in-law, younger brothers, parents, wife, servants – to be agreeable to Your view-point, I wonder, in what manner You spoke understanding how each one’s mind is!

I wonder, in what manner, knowing how each one’s mind is, You spoke prudently and (some times) instilling fear, but always charmingly so that everyone - kings, sages, celestials, asura, the great Lords of (eight) cardinal points, the brave ones, Lord Siva, and the Sun etc. – would do Your bidding.

Read the bold ones. It can be called as samayaniki tagu maataladane as a ninda sthuthi.
Who is the hero here ? Again Sri Ramachandramurthy.

I am insisting what I have said in my earlier thread : We must understand the intent of any composer.

For him His ishtadevata Sri Rama is same as Sri Krishna or Paramashiva.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 03 Apr 2018, 22:06

My earlier appeal to musicians such as Pantula Rama remain, i.e., they should restore the original versions of all songs that have been changed and mutilated.

I have heard Smt Pantula Rama singing only the routine versions. No old phrases or old raagam. If she tries to explore the old ones, I will feel much happy. Etla dorikithivo in Lalitha is a different story.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 03 Apr 2018, 22:52

Though Rama avatharam and Krushna Avatharam, are dear to all Vaishnavites, I wonder if it is right to mix up the two stories, especially the events. The trouble is with the wording of the composition. I will illustrate , how nicely Periyaazvar deals with Ramayanam in first and fourth stanzas and Bagavatham in second and third stanzas of the pasuram ' mudiyondri moovulakangalum' as rendered by Smt.MS.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... lakangalum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ilango AdikaL also deals with the various avatharams in his Aaychiyar Kuravai. as sung by Smt.MS( six stanzas)
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... matthaakki
----------------------------------------------------- stories from ramayanam, mahabaratham and bagavatham.
But they have handled the theme very carefully. without creating confusion.
That is literature. Lord Krushna is playful and Lord Rama is 'sathya sandhan' in normal understanding.
The kruthi is not upto the standard , poetically. ( musically, it may be good).

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 04 Apr 2018, 23:13

Came across this nice paper in shodhganga .today. . We must approach Thyagaraja as a devotee- who spoke in music idiom. The author here opines that even his Telugu was not pure, mixing sanskrit and even colloquial thamizh ( this is not in disparagement). The author is critical of musicologists and linguists, who concentrate and analyze the words in the krithis rather than the music. A comparison of Dikshithar, Thyagaraja, Shyama Sastry in their choice and usage of the language is given.
Then follows a comparison of Thyagaraja swami's kruthis and those of Papanasam Sivan closely patterned on Thyagaraja. ( famous krithis in ragams like Todi, kalyaNi, kambodhi, mohanam, karaharapriya and a few more are given.
Talam aspect also is covered. ( Sri.sankarank will be delighted)
Scholars in this forum will find a lot of material to their liking and approval, I believe.
shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/35224/10/10_chapter%205.pdf

( we can copy the link and paste in the browser's address bar to get the download )

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 Apr 2018, 23:28

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑03 Apr 2018, 22:02 For him His ishtadevata Sri Rama is same as Sri Krishna or Paramashiva.

Thought he had kept Paramashiva out of the milieu of the Vishnu forms. Can you point to a kriti where Siva is also treated as an alternate form of Rama/Krishna/Venkateswara/Vishnu?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Apr 2018, 09:30

Thought he had kept Paramashiva out of the milieu of the Vishnu forms. Can you point to a kriti where Siva is also treated as an alternate form of Rama/Krishna/Venkateswara/Vishnu?

My first example is a rare one, 'deva rama rama' in the ragam Sourastram. Here, he envisions Sri Rama as Paramashiva. Meaning given here is taken from the site of Sri Govindan.

O Lord (dEva)! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAma! O Great (mahA) Lord (dEva)! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAghuvara!
O Lord Embodied (rUpa) as Siva – enemy (ari) of cupid (bhAvaja) (bhAvajAri)! O Divine sport (khEla) natured (bhAva)! O Holy One (pAvana)! Please protect (ava) me (pAvanAva), O mahAdEva!
O Lord rAma! O Lord rAma! O mahAdEva! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAghuvara!
O Auspicious One (SaMkara) (Sankara)! O Merciful Lord (karuNAkara)! O Lord who ever (aniSam) (karuNAkarAniSam) wields (kara dhRta) (literally holding in hand) (bow and) arrows (Sara)!
O Fascinator (vaSaMkara) of devotees (bhakta)! O Destroyer (Ahava) (literally offer in sacrifice) of asuras (danuja) (danujAhava)! O Fear-less One (or Unhesitating) (niHSanka) (niSSanka)! O Lord who delights in music (rasika) of tyAgarAja!
O Lord! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAma! O mahAdeva! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAghuvara!

Second one is a commonly heard krithi, 'evarani' in the ragam Devamrtavarshini. He says Sri Rama is personification of Vishnu and Shiva.

O Munificient Lord, praised by this tyAgarAja!
What did the most Eminent people determine as to who You are, and how did they worship You? – whether Lord Siva or Lord vishNu or brahmA or the Supreme Lord?
For the Siva mantra (OM namaSSivAya), ‘ma’ is the soul; for the vishNu mantra (OM namO nArAyanAya), ‘rA’ is the soul; I salute the great personages who understand this detail.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Apr 2018, 09:36

Super. Thank you!

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 05 Apr 2018, 12:12

From a high philosophical plane , of Advaitha, All the 'gods' may point to the Almighty, the unknowable, ( that will surely include the Gods of all the religions as well, as Barathy's poem states. But, that is for liberated mystics and not for common people, for whom mythology is the reality. There have been references to Lord Siva in all the epics but as distinct from Vishnu. If we extend the concept too much too literally, it may lead to absurdities. Consider the celestial marriage of Madurai Meenakshi Kalyaanam. Lord Vishnu hands over his sister Meenaakshi to Lord Sundareswara. The pantheon has been clearly delineated for over twenty centuries. and thousands of kruthis and poems have been created on this basis. .. Devi assumes different forms like Durga, Saraswathi and Lakshmi . Does it sound nice to equate Sita prattiyaar with Lakshmi? Characters in each incarnation have distinct personality.
All these inconsistencies vanish if we just ignore the words and imbibe the spirit of the music.
-----------------------------------------------------
a few paras from shadhganga paper.." Though language is common both to literature and music composition, the importance given to it is not the same in all expressions. Even in literature the yardsticks for prose, poetry and drama are different and in a musical composition language is reduced to a status of just a vehicle or medium for expressing a musical thought. It should be remembered that there are great aspects of classical music like Raga alapana, Tanam and Kalpana svara, where it is all music and no language at all. Even in compositions, the language has full significance only in vocal music. Music is itself a language that can create a rapport of its own.
-------------------------------------------------------
It should thus be clear that the calibre of a ‘poet’ and that of a ‘Vaggeyakaraka’ need not be identical. The former will have everything to do with language, euphony, rules of prosody etc., and may even have nothing to do with music. But the latter has to have some poesy in him while his magnificent obsession should be only with music. A minimum felicity with a language is a must for a composer (Vaggeyakara) and any command over music is not a must for a poet.
Looked from this background, a composer for a kriti should automatically be given a lenient treatment when the language used in a kriti is being analysed. Any of the Vaggeyakaras have been adepts in language too, while there have been quite a few whose lack of command over language often betrays. The appeal of music is very wide, often transgressing regional, political and even national boundaries. But the appeal of a sahitya is limited to the linguistic boundaries. If the Telugu compositions of Tyagaraja have been so jealously guarded in Tamilnadu it must have been more because of the great music in them than for the words.

There must have been a time when all that was known about Tyagaraja’s kritis was only the music in them and only latterly, with the spread of the empire of the musicologists, more and more time, energy and ink became to be spent on the sahitya portion. These tribe of commentators whose only claim to dabble in the realm of music is their knowledge of language, - cannot sing a single line of music but can go on pouring out more and more of written matter, often to the extent that would have baffled Tyagaraja himself.

In this context to call Tyagaraja’s kritis as ‘Tyagabrahmopanishad’ would seem to be an exaggeration[/color].

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Apr 2018, 15:07

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑05 Apr 2018, 09:30 For the Siva mantra (OM namaSSivAya), ‘ma’ is the soul; for the vishNu mantra (OM namO nArAyanAya), ‘rA’ is the soul; I salute the great personages who understand this detail.

I had viewed this verse as just providing an etymology for the word "Rama". But if one looks at it as an assertion that all the Gods are the one and the same, it takes it to yet another level.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Apr 2018, 21:58

rAma - combination of Siva pancAkshari and vishNu ashTAkshari - this has also been stated by kAnci mahAperiava also.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 06 Apr 2018, 09:56

I had viewed this verse as just providing an etymology for the word "Rama". But if one looks at it as an assertion that all the Gods are the one and the same, it takes it to yet another level.

Very true. It depends much on our understanding and maturity.

I like to share an information related to this krithi. This krithi was considered to be a spurious one during the days of KV Srinivasa Iyengar. Reason is so simple as this praises Lord Shiva. Musicians at that time cannot accept Tyagaraja svami praising Shiva. They quoted this etymology is not seen in Purana-s or Itihasa-s and someone with a very limited knowledge composed this krithi with the mudra of Tyagaraja. This was said by KVS. It gives me an impression that he was also of that opinion.

I dont know how this was then accepted by all .

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Apr 2018, 10:29

Isn't the name sankaranarayanan based on sankaran kovil where both deities are in the same deity?

Looks like some disputes were settled early on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankarankovil

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Apr 2018, 10:31

Some of these stories need to be interpreted with a pinch of salt. Given that there are a few "spurious" kritis composed by KVS with the Thyagaraja mudhra, I wonder!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Apr 2018, 10:34

vgovindan wrote: ↑05 Apr 2018, 21:58 rAma - combination of Siva pancAkshari and vishNu ashTAkshari - this has also been stated by kAnci mahAperiava also.

Sri V Govindan, it seems saivaites of smArta realm were part of a conspiracy to rob the 5 from "nArAyaNAya" after extending that to 8 to extend their own 3 sivAya to 5. So you got to be careful somewhat. If people want to be different let them be

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 06 Apr 2018, 11:15

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 09:56
I had viewed this verse as just providing an etymology for the word "Rama". But if one looks at it as an assertion that all the Gods are the one and the same, it takes it to yet another level.
Very true. It depends much on our understanding and maturity.

I like to share an information related to this krithi. This krithi was considered to be a spurious one during the days of KV Srinivasa Iyengar. Reason is so simple as this praises Lord Shiva. Musicians at that time cannot accept Tyagaraja svami praising Shiva. They quoted this etymology is not seen in Purana-s or Itihasa-s and someone with a very limited knowledge composed this krithi with the mudra of Tyagaraja. This was said by KVS. It gives me an impression that he was also of that opinion.

I dont know how this was then accepted by all .

Is there some other justification for these two letters to be isolated as the soul of the mantras? I'm sure any letter taken away would reduce the mantras to meaninglessness. --?

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 06 Apr 2018, 11:51

Just trying to get information......
1) who selected and named these 5 krithis as panccharathan kritis'? what is the tradition?
2) Personally, I find the other four , really wonderful in music as well as theme. Is it possible to choose some other great composition of Thyagaraja to replace sadhinchane and make it the new sampradhayam?
3) Can we avoid group singing by vocalists and instead have group rendering by instrumentalists alone? ,,especially Nagaswaram players?
4) Can we do away with individual performances in the venue during the festival?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 06 Apr 2018, 11:55

sureshvv wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 10:31 Given that there are a few "spurious" kritis composed by KVS with the Thyagaraja mudhra, I wonder!

I don't think he tried to pass of his compositions as Thyagaraja's. Apparently he acknowledged his work as his own. He seems to have studied T's style!

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 936921.ece

Of course I had never heard of this till now, but I feel quite disillusioned. I certainly knew that there were some kritis whose authorship was disputed, but I did not know that compilers were knowingly including others' kritis (like kvs') among T's kritis.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:07

Is there some other justification for these two letters to be isolated as the soul of the mantras? I'm sure any letter taken away would reduce the mantras to meaninglessness. --?

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:10

Ranganayaki,
I am having with me the book 'Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams' by Shri KV Srinivasa Iyengar with me. Though I cannot read or write Telugu, I have got it read by my wife who knows - being educated in Telugu - Telugu. This kRti is very much available therein.

Further, the word 'rAma' is considered tAraka nAma. The other tAraka nAma is 'Om'.

The efficacy of the tAraka nAma - 'rAma' - can be gauged from the very fact that it has been equated with Om which is consered as ultimate mantra, without which every other mantra is considered powerless.

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:34

This kRti 'evarani nirNayincirirA' is available in all books I referred for my blog - 'Tyagaraja' TK Govinda Rao; Tamil book 'ஸத்குரு ஸ்ரீ த்யாகராஜ ஸ்வாமி கீர்த்தனைகள்' By AK Gopalan and disciple of Tiger Varadhachari TS Vasudevan; 'The Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja' by Shri C Ramanujachari and introduction by Dr. V Raghavan.

This kRti, in my opinion - I know it matters little - is one of the inspired kRtis of tyAgarAja.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:45

googleweblight.com/i?u=http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... 1&hl=en-IN

The web address given therein needs to be updated. I shall search and post it later.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:47

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

I just mentioned what I have read in the preface of one of the books by KVS. Certainly, I differ from him.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 07 Apr 2018, 08:52

vgovindan wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:10 Ranganayaki,
I am having with me the book 'Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams' by Shri KV Srinivasa Iyengar with me. Though I cannot read or write Telugu, I have got it read by my wife who knows - being educated in Telugu - Telugu. This kRti is very much available therein.

Further, the word 'rAma' is considered tAraka nAma. The other tAraka nAma is 'Om'.

The efficacy of the tAraka nAma - 'rAma' - can be gauged from the very fact that it has been equated with Om which is consered as ultimate mantra, without which every other mantra is considered powerless.

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

Thank you, Sri Govindan.. I will try to look up the terms you have used to understand your response better.

I did not say the kriti was spurious. I only asked my question about his interpretation of the mantras.

The link I provided mentioned several other kritis of KVS, thought to be T’s, but which KVS has acknowledged as his and which are included in books as T-kritis.. There was no mention of this particular kriti in the article, and I did not say anything about it being spurious.

By the way, don’t say your opinion doesn’t matter, it does. But very occasionally, Ive disagreed with you. It’s just my way of looking at things. That doesn’t mean I don’t hold you in high esteem. I admire what you’ve done. I would like you not to take a disagreement personally.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 07 Apr 2018, 08:53

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:07

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.

Ok, thank you.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Apr 2018, 10:35

Ranganayaki,
Nothing personal. We are discussing issues. The response is issue related - and not person.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 07 Apr 2018, 13:51

ref: @251 link.
"Some of the songs he thus created include ‘Nidu charanamule’(Simhendramadhyamam), ‘Natajanaparipalakana’ (Simhendramadyamam), and ‘Vinatasuta’ (Harikhambodi). The Hindu mentions one more – ‘Ni Balama’ for which no raga is given. When confronted about it Srinivasa Iyengar shrugged off his compositions as his tribute to Tyagaraja!"
----------------
What is the position of these krithis now?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Apr 2018, 19:00

None of the krithis mentioned above can be seen in his books.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 08 Apr 2018, 10:59

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑07 Apr 2018, 08:53
bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:07

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.
Ok, thank you.

Bhaktim Dehi,

I looked it up. My Question was whether there is scripture which brings together the Narayana mantra and the shiva 5-akshara mantra to say, as T does, that the substance of the two is Ramanama. The Upanishad you quoted does not say that! It does not even bring up the panchakshara.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 08 Apr 2018, 13:14

Sri V Raghavan is the first one to mention about that. I even remember reading this concept in the mentioned upanishad. My memory could have slipped. Will check and come back to you.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 08 Apr 2018, 17:47

Ok, thank you.

ravichitrapu · Post by **ravichitrapu** » 08 Apr 2018, 21:53

Oh my god - the posts have not been quite what i expected from carnatic music lovers. quite a bit of rancour in some of the posts!!!!
anyway - my own feelings/ views -
1. Telugu language during the time of Thyagaraja and especially the language he used is not always colloquial - (and the telugu spoken today has evolved somewhat) so the meaning would have to be interpreted in that context.
(i am telugu by birth but cannot understand some of his songs right away just like that as if i was born to understand them - i still have to ask some Telugu scholars etc for the actual meaning)
2. Composers sometimes take some liberties in the form of lengthening some syllables in a line for the sake of tala or for the music sake; and especially Thyagaraja who is said to have been divinely blessed to have sung as it came to his mind - probably he did this too on more occasions.
3. Thyagaraja frequently used the names / attributes / incidents of Lord Rama & Krishna interchangeably - what i feel is that he mixed them quite freely - perhaps he viewed them both as one - i.e. his lord rama
4. regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams
5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.
which is why i think we, who are all so used to listen to samayaniki feel aghast to think of saadhinchene replacing it
6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
*************

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 08 Apr 2018, 23:06

carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.

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Yes, Sir.
it may be good if the CM vocalists learned much more of Telugu, Kannada, and Sanskrit besides Thamizh. and made a sincere attempt to understand the lyrics that they were singing. without going into philosophical aspects.
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Recently, I came across a comment that equated Hanuman as an avatar of Siva!.. Puranas abound in such zealous stories. Thyagaraja does not mix too much of Rama and Krushna. just preparing a list of songs where such mixing occurs. Not many. Can give exact figures in a few days.
Todi is such a unique raga in CM with no equivalent in hm ( not in name) . why not choose the best Todi kriti from Thayagaraja and replace this controversial panchgarathna kriti with that? Aftrerall, the tradition was created by us hardly 100 years back.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Apr 2018, 09:32

regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams
5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

tadvAg-visargO janatAgha viplavO yasmin prati-SloKam-abaddhavatyapi |
nAmAnyanantasya yaSOngitAni yat-SruNvanti gAyanti gRNanti sAdhavaH || Bhagavatam 1.5.11

On the other hand, that composition which, though faulty in diction, consists of verses each of which contains the names of the immortal Lord, bearing the impress of His glory, wipes out the sins of the people; It is such composition that pious men love to hear, sing and repeat to audience. (Translation Gita Press Ghorakhpur)

tyAgarAja was a bhAgavata first, musician second. For him music was a sAdhan (equipment/tool) through which he could reach the goal he set for himself. rAma - the paramAtma was his goal.

"tyAgarAju nErcina sangIta SAstra jnAnamu sArUpya saukhyadamE, manasA"

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

So scholars are going to sit in judgement as to what is right and what is wrong with the songs of tyAgarAja. Go ahead. Who can stop freedom of expression?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Apr 2018, 09:58

Beautiful post by ravichitarapu.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Apr 2018, 10:20

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 1. Telugu language during the time of Thyagaraja and especially the language he used is not always colloquial - (and the telugu spoken today has evolved somewhat) so the meaning would have to be interpreted in that context.
(i am telugu by birth but cannot understand some of his songs right away just like that as if i was born to understand them - i still have to ask some Telugu scholars etc for the actual meaning)

It is a particular geographical strain of Telugu spoken in the region. A "scholar" who is not well versed with this may find himself/herself at sea.

2. Composers sometimes take some liberties in the form of lengthening some syllables in a line for the sake of tala or for the music sake; and especially Thyagaraja who is said to have been divinely blessed to have sung as it came to his mind - probably he did this too on more occasions.

Many times a deliberate contention is introduced between Sahitya and Sangeetha to make life interesting for the musician to maneuver and rasika to enjoy

3. Thyagaraja frequently used the names / attributes / incidents of Lord Rama & Krishna interchangeably - what i feel is that he mixed them quite freely - perhaps he viewed them both as one - i.e. his lord rama

Not just Thyagaraja. This was also done by most of the Alwar saints and many other composers. Other avatars of Vishnu also freely mixed.

4. regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams

Think we have done it right here

5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

We should welcome it. Hopefully the experiment and its success will be accompanied by due consideration to all aspects.

which is why i think we, who are all so used to listen to samayaniki feel aghast to think of saadhinchene replacing it

The burden of proof always rests with the experimenter.

6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.

Agree. Especially since it is your "humble opinion"

. But audiences are also becoming more educated (given the amount of material available) and are demanding more skillful renderings. See Point 2 above.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 09 Apr 2018, 10:58

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
*************

Well lets not lay it on predecessors for things that can be improved. When you say composers - especially SrI tyAgarAjA svAmi , there is no notated versions from svAmi himself. So this conjecture cannot be made. For the other two , we have iron clad structures and nothing could be affected there anyway.

Your sense of leniency for wrong split is fine, if the artiste is taught that way and sings it faithfully.

But then yourself and the artiste are employing so much analysis and judgement as regards "art" and how "music" is pre-eminent. After the era of BMK, MDR, KVN, TNS who have shown how syllables can be handled ( I am not saying all of them got it correct all the time, there may be exceptions , but I would think Dr BMK is correct most of the time), it should be possible for thinking musicians , who ruminate on things "artful" , to think about this better. Rest of the musicians have at least played with the syllables to show they can move for musical effect.

Secondly your comment about musical content being affected has to be turned on its head. The reason SrI tyAgarAja svAmis kritis are valuable, is the syllable spacing into which you can infuse rAga bhava in the first place. And different musicians all do it with different pATantarams, so rAgA by itself is not the actual inherited treasure from Sri tyAgaraja svAmi. "Gamakaws" have evolved, speed has changed.

So what you have inherited is syllable spacing that could be traced back to the composer, and even there, dhIrga / hrasva varies again due to different people learning it differently.

So in conclusion, syllable spacing has musical effect. Else plenty of pre-trinity composers would have occupied center stage by now!

Now we are demanding the same syllable spacing can be done differently and it is possible. And music will enhance too!

For example here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHblM5i ... .be&t=4241,

The word split it seems is : kalini ingatamu erugaka - not even merugaka - I re-verified - there is enough space to pause at ingitamu. erugaka will fall atItam to arudhi and ninnADu will fall atItam to saSabhda of second dRtam. A Mridangist will need to pause and emphasize both of them and music is enhanced.

As I said syllable positioning counts as music - as you cannot otherwise talk about music being there in first place , before it gets impacted.

So:

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

This is not about what umpteen different future children would be singing like. We demand thinking , deliberative, introspecting, artful experts to fix this. Use their brains for a good cause, rather than trying to justify why syllables/words are broken!

And we also demand musicologists , drawing upon Prof. Sambamoorthy, to "STOP" saying, trinity composed kritis just only to show us the abstract rAgA bhava. I heard that again @ Arkay by one of his disciples last season - trying hard to find the link.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 10 Apr 2018, 10:21

The Upanishad you quoted does not say that! It does not even bring up the panchakshara.

I made a mistake. Check with "Rama Rahasya Upanishad". Dr V Raghavan has mentioned about both the texts. You can check his book too.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 Apr 2018, 16:01

When you say composers - especially SrI tyAgarAjA svAmi , there is no notated versions from svAmi himself. So this conjecture cannot be made.

..( sankaranK)
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i am under the impression, that the 'music' of Thyagaraja swami as we hear it now, was created by the composer himself. and taught to his direct disciples. Wrong?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 11 Apr 2018, 19:06

shankarank wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 10:58
ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
*************

Your sense of leniency for wrong split is fine, if the artiste is taught that way and sings it faithfully.

But then yourself and the artiste are employing so much analysis and judgement as regards "art" and how "music" is pre-eminent. After the era of BMK, MDR, KVN, TNS who have shown how syllables can be handled ( I am not saying all of them got it correct all the time, there may be exceptions , but I would think Dr BMK is correct most of the time), it should be possible for thinking musicians , who ruminate on things "artful" , to think about this better. Rest of the musicians have at least played with the syllables to show they can move for musical effect.

I agree completely. I have never met a misplaced syllable that could not be moved. It is not a concern for musicality, but a disregard for lyrics and/or unconsciousness of meaning! It is not just syllable spacing but the pronunciation of consonants too.

When sung correctly the kritis stop sounding like gibberish!!! They often become much clearer in meaning, and are always far more enjoyable. We owe it to the composers to make the correct versions more familiar and stop allowing their devotional works to sound like gibberish.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 12 Apr 2018, 22:54

How important are the lyrics for music? While it is true that correct pronunciation and word-splitting enhance the quality of rendering in vocal music, how relevant is it for instrumental music?
This should not be construed as permission to mangle the existing krithis of the Greats . We should respect how the krithis have been sung over so many decades prior to 1966, a sort of border line in Tamilnad CM .
Secondly and more importantly, Tamizh language does not have any problem with different types of consonants and is sweeter for this reason. To illustrate, we can have ka, kka, and ga only. ( No kha, or gha..rather unnatural).
Why is any discussion ignoring some very good krithis by Papanasam Sivan modeled exactly on the original Thyagaraja krithis in ragam though the theme and meaning may be different? All the leading vocalists in Tamilnadu have sung many such tamizh krithis.
Thyagaraja should be evaluated as a music composer . He might have been a saint, But there was a real mendicant saint three vcenturies earlier ( Purandaradasa) and nearer still we had a real wandering mystic Sadasiva BrammendaaL. In very recent times, we had Ramana Maharishi and Paramahamsa. They were no poets are even composers. Thyagaraja krithis can be altered in rendering, only by common consent of musicologists and artistes.
But we can omit many krithis if not sounding well or proper. Aarabi is a nice ragam but 'samayaniki ' refrain, has ever sounded common place to me over so many years, even without going into its meaning. !

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 13 Apr 2018, 07:08

Thyagaraja should be evaluated as a music composer . He might have been a saint......

Better find out as to who his audience was.