Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

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vasanthakokilam
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Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Saw the following by Vidushi Pantula Rama on FB.
—-----------
Open letter to all musicians and music lovers

Dear Musicians & Music lovers

Namaste !
WISH YOU A VERY HAPPY VILAMBI UGADI
(TELUGU NEW YEAR)💐💐💐

Just around the corner is the 251st Birth Anniversary of one of the greatest creative minds in the history of human evolution, Tyagaraju. The 250th birth year of Tyagaraju was celebrated with great reverence and many thematic presentations all over the world. As we come to the end of such a significant year, I wish to make a humble request to one and all to make note of a very important correction in the way we have been singing one of the most important compositions of Tyagaraju- the Arabhi Ratnam “Sādhinchenē”.
We have been singing all the swarasahityas suffixed by “samayāniki’. The correct way would be to sing all the swarasahityas suffixed by “sādhinchene”, the Pallavi. This was first proposed by the multifaceted genius from Vijayawada Sriman NCh Krishnamacharyulu. Many great musicians of authority like Sri Lalgudi G Jayaraman, Sri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy, Sri S R Janakiraman and many others to name a few have concurred with the same idea. In fact this was how the great composition was composed in the first place. Somewhere down the line the change happened because of some misinterpretation and came to stay. The only reason being sited for continuing this is - it is sung like that at Tiruvayyaru. Sincere attempts have already been made at Tiruvayyaru by the dedicated organisers and great musicians of yesteryears and today also to make this change. However the volume of people singing together there, out of habit, makes it impossible for unison in this aspect. It is our responsibility at least now to revive the original structure and propagate it so widely that everybody gets used to it and this significant change is incorporated at Tiruvayyaru also next year onwards.
I will now quote the reasons for the proposed change –

1. All the other Pancharathnas follow the same structure – Pallavi, Anupallavi, Swarasahityas suffixed by pallavi and finally Anubandha Charanam with the exception of ‘Jagadanandakaraka’ where there is no anubandha charanam at all.
2. The lyrical structure of the composition is in tandem with the rules of Prosody only when Samayaniki is the first line of the anubandha charanam and not a separate line.
3. Also the meaning of the composition is complete and proper only when sung as such.

For a better understanding of the same I’m going to present “Sādhinchene” along with a brief explanation in my you tube Channel very soon and add the link here. Pls do listen. I’m also posting the original article of Sriman NCh Krishnamacharyulu published in the National Music Magazine – Ganakala.

Thank you

Musically yours
Dr PANTULA RAMA
---

thanjavooran
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by thanjavooran »

Excellent. Any link for the rendition ?
Thanjavooran
18 03 2018

Sachi_R
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Sachi_R »

Namaskaram to the Vidushi and my appreciation for such endeavours as they move us in the right direction.

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

The genie is out of the box, I am afraid!

ram1999
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ram1999 »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 07:48 Saw the following by Vidushi Pantula Rama on FB.
—-----------
Open letter to all musicians and music lovers

Dear Musicians & Music lovers

Namaste !
WISH YOU A VERY HAPPY VILAMBI UGADI
(TELUGU NEW YEAR)💐💐💐

Just around the corner is the 251st Birth Anniversary of one of the greatest creative minds in the history of human evolution, Tyagaraju. The 250th birth year of Tyagaraju was celebrated with great reverence and many thematic presentations all over the world. As we come to the end of such a significant year, I wish to make a humble request to one and all to make note of a very important correction in the way we have been singing one of the most important compositions of Tyagaraju- the Arabhi Ratnam “Sādhinchenē”.
We have been singing all the swarasahityas suffixed by “samayāniki’. The correct way would be to sing all the swarasahityas suffixed by “sādhinchene”, the Pallavi. This was first proposed by the multifaceted genius from Vijayawada Sriman NCh Krishnamacharyulu. Many great musicians of authority like Sri Lalgudi G Jayaraman, Sri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy, Sri S R Janakiraman and many others to name a few have concurred with the same idea. In fact this was how the great composition was composed in the first place. Somewhere down the line the change happened because of some misinterpretation and came to stay. The only reason being sited for continuing this is - it is sung like that at Tiruvayyaru. Sincere attempts have already been made at Tiruvayyaru by the dedicated organisers and great musicians of yesteryears and today also to make this change. However the volume of people singing together there, out of habit, makes it impossible for unison in this aspect. It is our responsibility at least now to revive the original structure and propagate it so widely that everybody gets used to it and this significant change is incorporated at Tiruvayyaru also next year onwards.
I will now quote the reasons for the proposed change –

1. All the other Pancharathnas follow the same structure – Pallavi, Anupallavi, Swarasahityas suffixed by pallavi and finally Anubandha Charanam with the exception of ‘Jagadanandakaraka’ where there is no anubandha charanam at all.
2. The lyrical structure of the composition is in tandem with the rules of Prosody only when Samayaniki is the first line of the anubandha charanam and not a separate line.
3. Also the meaning of the composition is complete and proper only when sung as such.

For a better understanding of the same I’m going to present “Sādhinchene” along with a brief explanation in my you tube Channel very soon and add the link here. Pls do listen. I’m also posting the original article of Sriman NCh Krishnamacharyulu published in the National Music Magazine – Ganakala.

Thank you

Musically yours
Dr PANTULA RAMA
---
If I am not mistaken, Ramakrishnan Murthy sang in the way mentioned by Vidushi Pantula Rama.


rajeshnat
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by rajeshnat »

I have heard the most common samayaniki and also the one that pantula recommends with sadinchane . While the meaning of sadinchane is more meaningful but the thrust of arabi is more better with samayaniki for my ears the ending part niki and little more swirl in samayaaaaa in samayaniki gives a more Arabi drive. Blame it on Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer and Semmangudi srinivasa iyer who spoiled with their extra musical thrust of arabi in samayaniki. As such just another viewpoint from a non telugu rasika not putting any stops to the sincere effort of vidushi pantula,

RaviSri
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by RaviSri »

What this musician says is correct. But there are others that have to be corrected, even in the Pancharatnam. Will the good lady come forward to do that?

1) The charanas of Jagadanandakaraka are jumbled up and that is not the way Thyagaraja composed it. The correct version is published in the Thillaistanam version published by S.Parthasarathy. 'amaratAnidaya.....' is not the first charanam but the second last. The first charanam is "indranIla maNi sannipApaghana........." and so on.

2) The Varali Pancharatnam is not sung as Varali but as something else. The Varali G is not being properly intoned by anyone, except by BMK and as I heard it by Vedavalli.

3) Many ragas have been changed in the bard's songs and these, Pantula Rama should strive to sing in the original ragas.

RaviSri
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by RaviSri »

I am sorry it must be "amaratAraka nichaya..........." instead of what I have typed in the previous post.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by vijay.siddharth »

RaviSri,

Firstly, thank you for your illuminating post. I have a few questions, though:

1) You say the original order of Jagananda Karaka began with 'Indra Neela Mani' and it delineated in the Thillaistanam book. My (grandmother's) copy of the Thillaistanam book is in Madras, and many forumites do not possess the Thillaistanam book too. Could you please state the correct order of the charanams in the book?

2) On similar lines, what is the logic behind the order of the charanams in Jagadananda Karaka?

3) Physiologically, is the process of rendering the Varali Gandharam the same as the kampita Chaturashra Rishabham present in Madhyamavathi? And is the 'prachina' way of rendering the Gandharam physiologically similar to the Brndavana Saranga way of rendering the Rishabham (with an emphasis on the Sadharana Gandharam)?

Cheers,

Siddharth

sivakami
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sivakami »

This change in 'Sadinchene' has been adopted by Sri. Malladi Babu garu and his sons as well, about which I had mentioned in my post once earlier.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18730&p=217383&hil ... ru#p217379

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Also, I feel singing svaras in these pancharatnam is a later tradition.

sivakami
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sivakami »

Another change that they follow, is singing 'Dudukku gala nanne dora kodukku brochuraa..' after swarasahityas, instead of stopping abruptly at 'Dudukku gala nanne dora'

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

With all due respects to Vidushi Pantula Rama, I need to remark that the beginning of the post itself turned me off. Is it common among Telugu people to address Saint Tyagarajar as "Tyagaraju" (Checked her FB post too)? Is it not Tyagarajar or Tyagaraja garu or so? I'm happy to be proved wrong.

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

TyagarOsu is also something you can call him by? I have no problem there either--a rose is a rose is a rose.
Many of us speak of Bharathi, calling him by that name, because of the closeness and love we feel for him. Should we only refer to him as Bharathiyar?

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

But he is also a Saint - surely the title shd have been used.
In TTD Naada Neerajanam when they announce - they always say Tyagaraja Swamivaru keerthana.
Wiki
Kakarla Tyagabrahmam(Telugu: కాకర్ల త్యాగబ్రహ్మం) (4 May 1767 – 6 January 1847) or Saint Tyagaraja, also known as Tyāgayya in Telugu, was one of the greatest composers of Carnatic music, a form of Indian classical music.

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

Yes, Tyagaraja swami or Tyagabrahmam would have been right. Musicians should give respect to composers, and especially to saints even while it is simply abt addressing them.

MaheshS
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by MaheshS »

HarishankarK wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 06:07 But he is also a Saint - surely the title shd have been used.
Only in for some people. For example check blogs from Sanjay Sub or Sriram V, Thyagaraja all the time. No Swami, no Saint ...

Personally speaking, the "pancharathnams" have been horribly butchered by the goshti singing, time to put an end to this charade.

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

When it comes to the gods themselves, we call them vADA, pODA. T himself indulged in this intimate mode with RAmuDu.
As for mortals, decades ago, T's kritis were also referred to as AiyarvAL kIrtanai-s by many, including leading musicians.

TyAgaraju on its own is fine too. tyAgayya was another way of addressing him. NAgaiyya's TyAgayya was how the old film was advertized....

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

My take on SADINCHENE based on LGJ's explanation/rationale for not using SAMAYANIKI(he agreed with Pantulu Rama's point):

Acc to LGJ,singing repeatedly Samayaniki Taku Matalaa(implies that Lord Rama is "fickle"(this is too strong a word I admit for want of a better way of expressing!!)- as if Lord Rama is prone to -changing his stance to suit the occasion--which could not have been intended by the Saint--probably he meant to convey a mild form of NINDASTUTHI,but repetition of the phrase would appear to reinforce WHAT he did not intend.

Also I have a question. on one of the lines in this krithi;
According to ALATHUR Bros there was one more swaram/sahitya phrase-SA SA DA PA MA GA RI RI Ma Ga RI RI. SA RI SA SA DA SA RI (Sarasaksshulu Sanakasa Nandana--apologies if I have "butchered" the lyrics portion!!). AT the Thiruvaiyaru festival they used to insist on singing the line in the chorus but the rest of the Senior Vidwans used to refrain from singing the swarm/sahitya. I doubt if any of the current musicians follow this.

RAVI SRI, any comment on this from the Dhanammal School???

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

arasi wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 20:48 When it comes to the gods themselves, we call them vADA, pODA. T himself indulged in this intimate mode with RAmuDu.

TyAgaraju on its own is fine too. tyAgayya was another way of addressing him. NAgaiyya's TyAgayya was how the old film was advertized....
You said it yourself. Only in intimate/personal mode, are the gods too subjected to vada/poda; not in a public forum, and definitely not when you are appealing to the public. Mariyaada teliyakane, maataladu...

Who is Tyagaraju - your next-door neighbor? Oru composer-aa irundundu neengale ippadi vidandaavaadam panlamo?

sankark
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sankark »

MaheshS wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 19:17 Personally speaking, the "pancharathnams" have been horribly butchered by the goshti singing, time to put an end to this charade.
Is it pancharatnam in the first place - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8261 - as in has it been authenticated that T is the vAggEyakAra of varALi ratnam.

So if you were to go back to tradition/sampradAya, that also has to be taken up.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

arasi wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 20:48 When it comes to the gods themselves, we call them vADA, pODA.
Lord Murugan has been addressed so in a couple of songs as varuvaan, povaan etc., i/o varuvaar or povaar. But that is mostly songs are javalis or padams.

E.g. P: pUnkuyil kUvum pUnjOlaiyil orunAL mAmayil mIdu mAyamAi vandAn
C2: vIra vEl murugan mINDum varuvAn vaLLi maNALan ennai maravAn
But even then addressing as Tyagaraju is little disrespectful. But I think we can leave it as Pantula Rama 's intentions are pure and good

sureshvv
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sureshvv »

Love is more powerful than Respect.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ranganayaki »

I'm just so surprised at this turn in the discussion! This forum has existed for over a decade with the most frequent references to the composer as Thyagaraja, or even just "T" in reviews. This accusation of disrespect has never come up before, so why the apparent double-standard for this performer, that too when she is the one SHOWING true respect by caring about the authenticity of the version used, to fit what the composer intended? She's the one taking the initiative too and is DOING something to fix it. Let's not prolong this. Let's just not cast aspersions on her and gratuitously say that this is disrespect when culturally, there are many accepted ways of talking about saints.

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

Thappu panravaalukku ivvalavu support-aa ?

@Ranganayaki: Referencing or reviewing is not the same as addressing to the public.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

sureshvv wrote: 21 Mar 2018, 11:59 Love is more powerful than Respect.
But if there is no respect, love will fade off.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

ramamatya wrote: 21 Mar 2018, 12:39 Thappu panravaalukku ivvalavu support-aa ?

@Ranganayaki: Referencing or reviewing is not the same as addressing to the public.
Well said. No doubt that Pantula Rama's intentions are good but this blemish could have been avoided. Even the poet Nakkeerar was not spared even though he was great!!

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

Deleted because post got truncated while posting. The next post which appeared after this is complete.
Last edited by arasi on 21 Mar 2018, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

Here's a classy musician and musicologist who seems dignified in her manners and in her performances who opines on the way in which folks sing the sage's compositions.
Another tumbai viTTu vAlaip piDikkiRa kadai here--trying to catch the calf by its tail instead of by its tether:(
As for us, showing sage T real respect and love is to focus on how he himself would have liked the lines to be sung, and not dwell on less important issues.
Last edited by arasi on 21 Mar 2018, 18:43, edited 2 times in total.

RaviSri
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by RaviSri »

RAVI SRI, any comment on this from the Dhanammal School???
As far as I know this extra charanam is not there in the Dhanammal version. But I don't know from where B-M learnt the pancharatnams, whether inside the family or from Naina Pillai. As far as I know, Naina Pillai did not sing any pancharatnam.

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

RAVI SRI: Thanks for the clarification. Another question: Are the THILLAISTHANAM and UMAYALPURAM SCHOOLS in agreement in so far as the PANCHARATHNAMS are concerned?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sri AM Chinnasamy Mudaliyar mentions about pancharatnam. Perhaps, he was the first person to use this term.
AMC has consulted not only Walajapet Sri Krishnaswamy Bhagavathar, but also Umayalpuram brothers. So, Umayalpuram disciples too were in agreement with this grouping.
With respect to Thillaisthanam school, Dr Srinivasaraghavan 's disciple Sri Parthasarathy has included all these 5 krithis in their collection of Tyagarajar krithis. But, Thillaistanam Sri Narasimha Bhagavathar didn't mention such a grouping in his book. Neither he has given all the charanam of kanakanaruchira krithi.

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

Accepting mistakes is the hallmark of humility in a true musician/human being.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

MaheshS wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 19:17
HarishankarK wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 06:07 But he is also a Saint - surely the title shd have been used.
Only in for some people. For example check blogs from Sanjay Sub or Sriram V, Thyagaraja all the time. No Swami, no Saint ...

Personally speaking, the "pancharathnams" have been horribly butchered by the goshti singing, time to put an end to this charade.
Nobody beatified him so he is not a Saint! svAmi - the "sva" is the self - he lifted himself up. She is not out there saying like the "rookie" MA Secretary that she won't call him with "svAmi" categorically. In this case she is reasoning with people, so the focus is on the substance of the kriti.

The best tribute we can give to tyAgarAja is to not get up during Mridangam tani and walk out! And improve our tastes for the laya accompaniment during his kriti renditions - so we get to demand more from all the artistes not just the singers. We should try that first!

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

Despite everything you say, it is still unconvincing that one can address Saint Tyagarajar publicly as a mere "Tyagaraju". Being disrespectful and clothing it as casual and hundred other such flimsy reasons is fast becoming the new norm and penetrating into traditional and civilized Carnatic music field - probably the negative tricklings of the Carnatic ecosystem's exposure to casual American culture <sigh>.
Last edited by ramamatya on 23 Mar 2018, 09:44, edited 1 time in total.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

"
Nobody beatified him so he is not a Saint!
"
I wanted to leave this matter but your words are condemnable. To me not addressing the great composer who is considered as an Avatara or Sri Narada Himself, as a Saint is like giving the same disrespect as the recent disrespect shown to Goddess Andal few months ago.
Not respecting as required and disrespecting is one and the same.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

"
The best tribute we can give to tyAgarAja is to not get up during Mridangam tani and walk out! "
What has this got to do with anything? This is done and dusted topic - those who appreaciate laya can stay - those who don't are free to stay or leave as they please.

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2018, 10:41
Nobody beatified him so he is not a Saint! svAmi - the "sva" is the self - he lifted himself up.
Are you sure? By beatification, you mean beatification by mutts? If so, I think that is not the only beatification authority. Did any mutt beatify Ramana Maharishi? Who would have beatified the founders of the mutts - for example, Shri Adi Shankaracharyar, Shri Ramanujacharyar or Shri Madhvacharyar? What abt the north indian saints - sant tukkaram, sant kabirdas, and so on? Beatification angle is not warranted here.

kvchellappa
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by kvchellappa »

As i understand, it does not matter which refrain the singer returns to at the end of each charanam (I am sure everyone is not going to fall in line), but it is earth-shaking how the composer is referred to as. From post 14 onwards, but for one by Sri MKS, all posts are on this aspect. That is 30 posts are on one expression by the writer, and 14 are on the subject matter.

HarishankarK
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by HarishankarK »

I want to raise an important question here.

Unfortunately with regard to carnatic music compositions of Sri Tyagarajar there is so much uncertainity -
so many compositions are missing
so many compositions ragas are changed
so many compositions have additional sangatis or different sangatis from the available (source not confirmed) notations
So many compositions with talam and kalapramanam changes
So many compositions which are disputed as the Saints compositions or not including the Pancharatnams themselves which I read somewhere but cannot recall
So many schools/banis with different singing styles for His compositions
So many more things about these compositions could have gone wrong that we donot know

Even now when Smt Pantula Rama has tried to remedy something - still there is so much doubt and contention in this forum itself if what she is prescribing to change is correct or not - who knows maybe this is also wrong!

Amidst this chaos what are we going to do? No one can say for certain that by merely changing the line where charanams are appended to this Pancharatnam in Arabhi - we can say now it is exact as per the vision/composition of the Saint.
This is the situation of our carnatic music - we just have to accept it and move on.
Looks to me that as long as bhakthi and raga is there no harm in tampering to suit one's style / improvisations etc.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

ramamatya wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 11:42
shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2018, 10:41
Nobody beatified him so he is not a Saint! svAmi - the "sva" is the self - he lifted himself up.
Are you sure? By beatification, you mean beatification by mutts? If so, I think that is not the only beatification authority. Did any mutt beatify Ramana Maharishi?
You should check the meaning of beatification online. I used it only as given in the dictionary. Even in the generic meaning wouldn't apply : " to make supremely happy". He found his own bliss.
ramamatya wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 09:24 Being disrespectful and clothing it as casual and hundred other such flimsy reasons is fast becoming the new norm and penetrating into traditional and civilized Carnatic music field
Traditional is good. Civilized is something westerners did to us. That is an existential need. Many times I have been uncivilized in the forum it seems, simply because I am offended by the notions being bandied about. But I myself have sung nAda bramham nAda bramham sathguru tyAga bramham as a young boy. I first wanted to be in the plane everybody is ( a sadas dharmam) and argue there, before I bring things too contextual to my upbringing. I thought, it is best to avoid overt display of religiosity - when all such things have been classified and othered under the head "religious".

Also in Indian traditions there is no insistence , unless within the family or a Guru tradition, of doing things in a certain way.

Nevertheless , since you two of you brought it up, I will notate his reference as SrI tyAgarAja svAmi. That is not to prove to you that I respect him. Rather I respect the "sadas Dharmam" of this forum - you all first.

How to address him according to convention is in itself debatable. He attained siddhi as SrI nAdabramhAnanda if we accept the story of his sanyas. Aradhana can be done only to those that took sanyas. Again that is not beatification by any authority by any means.

It seems you all have never noticed so far in the forum and suddenly apply this to only a musician. The intention seem to be only to provoke something. Like the "hypocrisy" argument. If she questions others, she should be clean first - yeah?. My retort is in the same vein. That people should also respect the sAdhana of any guru parampara ( Mridangam included!) and SrI tyAgarAja svAmi himself extols nAda. If you have not questioned so far - with million song lists and reviews, suddenly why this provocation?

As regards "saint" there are some generic meanings also - 4 & 5 in this:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/saint

But the first 3 are pre-eminent and hence I want to resist the use of the word. That goes back to your question about authority!

As regards honorifics, in tamizh "adigal" is added. The reference to the feet. As in Bhagavat pAda. Ilango Adigal is how he is referred to - the author of silapadikAram.. And tamizh civilization is not a pan Indian civilization it seems! I received a good explanation for it recently- The feet walks the path and we try our best to follow it.
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Mar 2018, 23:54, edited 2 times in total.

isramesh
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by isramesh »

In Telugu people generally address Tyagaraja as Tyagaraju or more frequently as Tyagayya. Smt Rama has many times in the past in her speaches addressed him as Tyagayya and Tyagaraju as well. Similarly we call Rama as RAmudu, krishna as krishudu, Siva as Sivudu - something to do with the prathama vibhakti.
I dont think Smt. Rama showed any disrespect to Tyagayya in referring to him as Tyagaraju.

sivakami
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sivakami »

isramesh wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 23:05 In Telugu people generally address Tyagaraja as Tyagaraju or more frequently as Tyagayya. Smt Rama has many times in the past in her speaches addressed him as Tyagayya and Tyagaraju as well. Similarly we call Rama as RAmudu, krishna as krishudu, Siva as Sivudu - something to do with the prathama vibhakti.
I dont think Smt. Rama showed any disrespect to Tyagayya in referring to him as Tyagaraju.
Exactly, we people who listen to/speak Telugu constantly feel that way only......
No disrespect...

arasi
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by arasi »

RamagAru, if we care to scroll all the way up, offers her ugAdi greetings to all. Let's reciprocate.
Happy ugAdi, hosa varushA, tamizh puthANDu wishes to all who are reading this thread and have posted in it!

rshankar
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by rshankar »

Thank you, Ramesh and Sivakami - hopefully, this put an end to needless comments, and we can stick to the substance of the post.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

HarishankarK wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 10:10 "
The best tribute we can give to tyAgarAja is to not get up during Mridangam tani and walk out! "
What has this got to do with anything? This is done and dusted topic - those who appreaciate laya can stay - those who don't are free to stay or leave as they please.
HarishankarK wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 15:18 Looks to me that as long as bhakthi and raga is there no harm in tampering to suit one's style / improvisations etc.
No ..no...no.. not that fast svAmi. If your need to feel the moments of bhakti based on rAgA, needs be to intact amidst all the prevalent chaos, then everything else is also important. What is done and dusted?

Lets be done and dusted about "art" music then. Why do you write reviews and why do you comment on music then? I am not questioning that a bhava filled experience is incomplete or invalid by any means. But you cannot use that to justify any other deficiencies. Once you open your mouth or start writing, nothing is done and dusted.

And all the things you mentioned from 1..N are all completely invalid questions. It does not matter how much you document and notate and preserve. If one generation decides , there is nothing in this, out goes the memory of it. In form and extent , things may be lost. But the nature of this is that, it can be re-discovered. Well not in the exact form, but the principles of it certainly. That is where a sAdhaka that practices and introspects is central to sampradAyA! So it is not important how much we lost and what changed. The fact that sAdhana is done by itself means there is diversity of bAnis, sampradayas.

So all your questions are based on historicity - typical of the notions carried by West and Christianity - all their narrative is based on historical preserves.

ramamatya
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by ramamatya »

isramesh wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 23:05 In Telugu people generally address Tyagaraja as Tyagaraju or more frequently as Tyagayya.
Exactly my point. So, Tyagaraju in Telugu = Tyagaraja in Tamil. Tyagaraju is NOT a respectful way of addressing as we here will not address as Tyagaraja but Tyagarajar. The way Saint Tyagarajar was addressed in the fb post is an OBVIOUS mistake that only needs to be corrected. There was no need to waste so many posts (posts from #14 except maybe one or two, thanks to kvchellappa's statistics) denying, defending and supporting mistakes.

Like I mentioned before, the penetration of the casual culture of US has probably caused such confusions in basic communication values and hence a stubbornness to understand facts. <sigh>

Accepting mistakes in the hallmark of humility in a true musician/human being.

shankarank
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by shankarank »

ramamatya wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 07:41 With all due respects to Vidushi Pantula Rama, I need to remark that the beginning of the post itself turned me off. Is it common among Telugu people to address Saint Tyagarajar as "Tyagaraju" (Checked her FB post too)? Is it not Tyagarajar or Tyagaraja garu or so? I'm happy to be proved wrong.
isramesh wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 23:05 In Telugu people generally address Tyagaraja as Tyagaraju or more frequently as Tyagayya.
Your original question has been answered in the affirmative. Now you cannot blame it on casual US culture or anything.

As I said you raising an issue of disrespect in this instance is not genuine when you have not raised any voice against disregard for generation of artistes, the musical rasika community ( who are all in the know!) have done. That is not just Mridangists in fact.

And I am not disagreeing that people should revere and respect prominent vaggEyakkaras and bhaktas.

But elevating SrI tyAgarAja svAmi as some son of god and rest are all some sinners who need no regard is not the way our traditions need to work as well. That is more the difference that should be noted. U.S casualism can be fixed easily if that is indeed the issue.

If anything Smt. Pantula Rama chose the much maligned forum of Facebook to air this. I am not sure if she felt constrained with raising it in vidvat sadas type forums or with organizers of the Aradhana or fellow senior musicians. She has given Lec Dems in Chennai - may be she felt that may not reach many people.

I would rather stick with receiving the message at this point. If you have any arguments against that that may be worthwhile to post.
Last edited by shankarank on 24 Mar 2018, 09:43, edited 1 time in total.

sivakami
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Re: Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Post by sivakami »

ramamatya wrote:
Accepting mistakes in the hallmark of humility in a true musician/human being.
Ok if that is so,
shankarank wrote:
If anything Smt. Pantula Rama chose the much maligned forum of Facebook to air this
Wont it be a good idea to write to her either on FB or some other means, or speak to her, rather than posting here, which, she may not be seeing at all..

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