A Rebuttal to T M Krishna

[Nick H]

oh wow, David Shulman said that! that settles it then. Thank you Sir. I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa". <3 David Shulman

Take this up with your relatives. We have had enough of it here.

[sureshvv]

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... e-5170943/

Great article. Vocalizes many of the problems I have had analyzing the problem statement as laid out by TMK. May be martha_krishna can address it and show us where the opinion piece goes wrong.

[arasi]

TMK will have his own answers for this article, and if he cares to air them for the benefit of us all, hope he doesn't become D.M Krishna--Demolition Krishna, as the author refers to him

[sureshvv]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

[martha_krishna]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

[sankark]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

That you are clueless as to how to fix your family's attitude?

[martha_krishna]

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

That you are clueless as to how to fix your family's attitude?

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.

reg the express article; does much better than the lot here. Having said that
""Above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice... strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, from a large.. confusing repertoire...." (Italian.chef.kiss.gif). I guess all of you nodded your head in agreement

[SrinathK]

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

[rshankar]

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.
reg the express article; does much better than the lot here.

Very much like "vAi sollil vIraraDi" and "seivadaRiyAraDi" illustrated here

[rshankar]

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.
reg the express article; does much better than the lot here.

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

Agree. Very much like "vAi sollil vIraraDi" and "seivadaRiyAraDi" illustrated here

[martha_krishna]

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

"listen" eh. nope.

and do the venerable folks agree with this take (indianexpress article)?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[Nick H]

and do the venerable folks agree with this take (indianexpress article)?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

Certainly not. People who are rubbish at music, have lousy memories, no sense of pitch, poor rhythmic ability, and who can't tell one song from another, can all make just-great musicians. Anywhere in the world. Any genre.

Ermmmm... right?

(There you have it, actually: the reasons why I'm in the audience, not on the [any] stage )

(Mind you... I'm probably not very venerable)

[martha_krishna]

hahaha. noted

on a serious note, I feel that the above quoted opinion is deeply ingrained in some us faulty human beings (pristine ones, kindly excuse); this helps us reconcile or maybe even be proud of the fact that only a small section of the most diverse society engages with art form regularly. While there are other art forms that require equal or more rigor with maybe even less financial benefits with a more diverse following and practitioners.

@uncles, please do not get angry. You are all nice people

[rshankar]

@uncles, please do not get angry. You are all nice people

Not angry...irritated and disappointed because all you’re doing is repeating what you accuse previous generations of having done: we grant that you can restate the perceived “problem” as well as how lofty your generation is in various ways without repeating yourself (money well-spent). Where you seem to be stuck is in articulating your (generation’s) egalitarian plans. All we hear is a lot of noise (empty vessels and all?)
Now, the question is whether we should tar your generation collectively, or consider it just one individual’s issue?

PS: We’re not all nice, just as I’m sure you’re lot is not all boring!

[martha_krishna]

Uncle, please do not tar my entire generation on my account. They do not deserve it. They need your blessings etc etc

also while at it, do you agree with this?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[kvchellappa]

Did you not drag them in here? Why would they have come otherwise?
Even if all of us talk nonsense, culture demanded that you be polite.
TMK has every right to say what he does because he has done hard work in music at least. He knows music. It is all right to support him as to oppose him, but it has to come with reasons that are cogently stated, not some push here and a shove there. If you join the discussion, you must meet the points raised, not selectively pass snide remarks.

[martha_krishna]

Did you not drag them in here? Why would they have come otherwise?

Sarchasm alert.

anyway, given that you linked the article, do you agree with the point the author makes, the one I have quoted above?

I will paste the quote again here
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[Nick H]

I will paste the quote again here

Why do you keep harping on about that? I thought we had agreed, even with a little humour, that what is mentioned is true of any serious, no scrub the serious, any music? So it leads where? To something like carnatic music is a scholarly music that makes high demands of scholarship, memory, study, etc, etc, and Brahmin tradition includes, those blah blah blahs and more therefore...

Because if so, then I think you are confusing causation with the extruded middle, or whatever the fancy logistical-falsehood terminology would be. Or maybe not. Maybe you are going somewhere else entirely. Come, tell! The guy with his stick over the symbol is getting a sore arm awaiting your revelation

(But then, when some of the "uncles" here get going, he gives up and goes home)

[sureshvv]

also while at it, do you agree with this?

So what exactly did he say again?

[sankark]

I will paste the quote again here

Maybe you are going somewhere else entirely. Come, tell! The guy with his stick over the symbol is getting a sore arm awaiting your revelation

(But then, when some of the "uncles" here get going, he gives up and goes home)

OTOH, lets not bother with the answer. For all we know, martha_krishna could be a unsupervised cognitive/machine language computing bot that is stuck in a infinite loop, yet to get into reasoning, and could eventually end up in the great revelation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_In ... et_dog.jpg

[SrinathK]

Now that you mention it, I hear soon they won't be able to tell a chatbot apart from a real online human being over the internet. Good thing I've seen many of you in flesh and blood....

[harimau]

An IAS officer had a suggestion about how to prevent urination in public spaces. Instead of charging a small fee for using the few pay toilets that the country has, he/she suggested that we pay people a small amount for using the toilets.

In a similar manner, maybe we need not only free admission and reservations for OBCs in concert halls, but we should pay them money to come listen to classical music.

hahahaha, this cracked me up (fiance is a PhD in public health with expertise in social norms of toilet use in India)
must be amazing to have the confidence to emit such ... with great elan. Extrapolate to the rest of the output and it all makes sense

Seventy years of brainwashing by politicians that everything wrong with India is the fault of the Brahmins has found its perfect receptacle in you.

You believe somehow the non-Brahmins can be brought back into the CM fold if only the Brahmins do not monopolize opportunities and graciously accept non-Brahmins into the fold.

Let me tell you the reality: Non-Brahmins looked at the success of Brahmins in the 1910-1950 timeframe and concluded that this was because the Brahmins possessed the right college degree. Mind you, I am saying degree, not education. That is because the politicians told them that they will make college admissions available to the non-Brahmins on a preferential basis, without regard to merit.

What is the result?

When recently Smt M Pramila Gurumurthy was appointed the vice-chancellor of the Tamil Nadu Music and Fine Arts University, there were rantings and ravings on public fora.

A person with a limited intellectual capabilities claimed that it was because Smt Pramila was a Brahmin. In fact, at the press conference announcing the appointment, a TV reporter asked the Minister of Education if in fact the position was "reserved for members of a certain community" at the behest of this intellectually challenged person. The minister replied that the selection was based on the unanimous recommendation of the selection committee.

A couple of days later, the minister explicitly clarified that Smt Gurumurthy is not a Brahmin.

Did this stop the idiots?

No.

Linking the name Pramila Gurumurthy to S Gurumurthy, editor of the satirical magazine Thuglak, one contender for the job claimed it was a conspiracy by the Brahmins to monopolize CM and to prevent folk music from being considered an art form.

A couple of days later, after somebody probably told him that the lady in question is no relation to S Gurumurthy, he went on a tirade claiming that she is a Brahmin because she is the granddaughter of the musician S Rajam through his son Gurumurthy.

She is the wife of S Rajam's son, not daughter.

You can watch all of this nonsense on Nakkeeran-TV on YouTube. Do a search. If you are capable of doing it.

People with such low or non-existent levels of intelligence believe that they are qualified for the job.

You should read the comments of the non-Brahmins on these videos too to realize how stupid these people are and swallow any anti-Brahmin propaganda.

I recall on a totally different board relating to software engineering how a non-Brahmin alleged that while his 4-year engineering degree qualified him for a job in the US, he found Brahmins with 3-year non-engineering degrees working in the same field in the US and attributed it to the Brahmin managers in his organization.

Let me say this as bluntly as I can: non-Brahmins do not have the dedication, the tenacity, the determination to succeed, etc., to the same degree as Brahmins do.

That is not just my opinion.

Let me relate an anecdote.

About 5 years ago, in his Carnatic Music concert at Narada Gana Sabha, Sri Yesudas said that if there is a next birth for him, he would like to be born a Brahmin.

The audience, full of clueless Brahmins and a few High Society non-Brahmins, was stunned. The violinist on stage himself said later that this comment on a sensitive topic by Yesudas should not have been made.

Yesudas then continued and said he didn't want to be born a Brahmin because it offered special privileges -- in fact, it didn't, he said -- but because only Brahmins have the determination to work hard at whatever job they undertake to do.

So, there you are, Ms Clueless.

A non-Brahmin, and a Christian at that, castigating the non-Brahmins for their intellectual laziness.

I know you will find that hard to take.

As Jack Nicholson says in a movie, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth".

[kvchellappa]

While the crusade against imaginary Brahmin domination of CM by design is balderdash and political, the contention that only Brahmins are capable of dedicated work is untrue, to put it mildly. Brahmins had a headstart because of centuries of being in the field of education and that legacy was helpful. I do not think we should go communal in the group that is devoted to music. TMK's worst sin is that he did it. Our naivete is that we swallow it. Everyone is doing something important. It is not that only those in some plump positions are doing. In fact some of the dirty work being done by some is more precious than what the software and other professionals do or even what TMK does in music or his rants. I feel we should edit out all communal references.

[harimau]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

Have you associated with any, even a single one non-Brahmin Carnatic musicians?

I know several.

They are not going around pissing and moaning like T M Krishna does.

As one musician said, T M Krishna is angling for an appointed seat in the Rajya Sabha (Upper House of the Parliament).

So, stop your stupid postings based on incomplete understanding of reality.

Enough already!

[harimau]

.....I feel we should edit out all communal references.

Why? Because the truth is unpalatable or politically incorrect?

I will amend my statement.

The only other caste that is really careful about the final result of their work is the barbar community.

Because if your haircut is not right, you won't get off the barber's chair. And refuse to pay him. And make a scene.

Now, are you happy?

[sankark]

Let me say this as bluntly as I can: non-Brahmins do not have the dedication, the tenacity, the determination to succeed, etc., to the same degree as Brahmins do.

That is not just my opinion.

Let me relate an anecdote.

About 5 years ago, in his Carnatic Music concert at Narada Gana Sabha, Sri Yesudas said that if there is a next birth for him, he would like to be born a Brahmin.

The audience, full of clueless Brahmins and a few High Society non-Brahmins, was stunned. The violinist on stage himself said later that this comment on a sensitive topic by Yesudas should not have been made.

Yesudas then continued and said he didn't want to be born a Brahmin because it offered special privileges -- in fact, it didn't, he said -- but because only Brahmins have the determination to work hard at whatever job they undertake to do.

Both of you are wrong - on determination and hard work part.

Special privileges - right on dot; anecdotally, I haven't been offered any special privileges and to my knowledge neither my family. And my family is as much is interested in CM as any others; almost zilch.

[RSR]

just curious..! Any brahmin nagaswaram player? from the days of the Trinity?

[RSR]

While the crusade against imaginary Brahmin domination of CM by design is balderdash and political, the contention that only Brahmins are capable of dedicated work is untrue, to put it mildly. Brahmins had a headstart because of centuries of being in the field of education and that legacy was helpful. I do not think we should go communal in the group that is devoted to music. TMK's worst sin is that he did it. Our naivete is that we swallow it. Everyone is doing something important. It is not that only those in some plump positions are doing. In fact some of the dirty work being done by some is more precious than what the software and other professionals do or even what TMK does in music or his rants. I feel we should edit out all communal references.

Occupation determined by the accident of birth, is almost a thing of the past, atleast in the southern states of India. This has been possible due to reservation policy in education and jobs for the non-brahmin sections of society. There has been a radical change for the good in the social environment since the 1950's.
It is not true that dedication, discipline , IQ and such things are monopoly of the brahmin community. Bright things are found in all the communities, given the opportunity and exposure.
Confining ourselves to CM, how many of the brahmin youngsters and their parents opt to choose CM as a career, out of love for it? CM like the software field has opened up chances of going abroad , if not as performers , atleast as tutors for the children of the financially well-placed diaspora in the States.
And then there is the glamorous film industry too.
TN govt has allotted a few periods per week for music right from elementary school. Let us hope that lakhs of children from the rural-poor NB sections, hitherto denied the chance of learning from very tender age, get exposure and surely, it will create thousands of talented musicians within a decade.

[vasanthakokilam]

There are a few universal truths and one of them is all TMK threads eventually reach a point of high entropy and no new content emerges. Also we are getting into broad stereo typing which is offensive to a lot of people. Closing the thread. ( RSR, We decided on this before seeing your last two posts. We will have other opportunities to discuss those aspects )

Also, let us take a break from discussing TMK’s non musical output. Thx.