Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

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jodha
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Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by jodha »

Recently I heard a hindustani classical concert in clarionet.While we too have artists in carnatic there are only a few may be because saxophone stole that slot.
My query is why
1.Nadhaswaram could not get into HM though of late leading carnatic artists play HM ragas with a shehanai feel ! Injikkudi excels in this.
2.Shehanai couldn't get into CM?We have heard that TNR could play hindolam in shehanai when he met Bismillah khan.
3.Is there any artist who plays HM in saxophone?Kadri has prooved beyond doubt that it can be adapted to Indian classical.His RTPs in ragas like patdeep are proofs that playing HM too is possible.
I even heard HM concerts in jalatharangam.Thats why I started pondering the above points.

uday_shankar
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by uday_shankar »

The approach to instrumental music is different in CM and HM.

In HM, each "traditional" instrument like sitar, sarod, sarangi, rudra vina, shehnai has its own repertoire and the approach towards improvisation is different not only between instruments but between gharanas. For example, a Sarod player usually doesn't play a "Sitar gat" and so on... So "adaptation" of a new instrument entails some soul searching as to what to borrow from which instrumental approach, etc... Incidentally, Bhansuri is not a traditional "classical" instrument, more folkish although the efforts of Pannalal Ghosh and Hariprasad Chaurasia have elevated its status like never before. In any case, they have their own repertoire. And then Vishwa Mohan Bhatt has created a unique repertoire of his own on the "Mohan Vina"/slide guitar.

The term "gaayaki ang" means vocal style but unlike CM, it is not an attempt to mimic vocal repertoire exactly or play the same "songs".

Interesting you mention nagasvaram, the only traditional instrument in CM with its own repertoire, such as Mallari. Other than that, every instrument in CM is simply an attempt make as close a carbon copy of the vocal repertoire as possible... which begs the question, why have instruments at all when everybody has to play the exact same thing... I think the keyboard with pitch bender has established itself as the ideal instrument for Carnatic audiences. Nobody remembers the "nadam" of the keyboard or its exact tone or timbre, but people are very happy it can "reproduce gamakaws".

To answer the question, is it possible to play HM on the saxophone, the answer is of course. The harder question is why ? I can see it may add a tonal dimension hitherto not found... Saskia Rao has adapted some sitar stuff to cello very effectively.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 06:05 ... which begs the question, why have instruments at all when everybody has to play the exact same thing...
Which begs the question, when did South Indians ever have an ear for music. They were reacting to the layam of a kriti only - except no musicologist of mamapore ever wants to admit it.
uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 06:05 I think the keyboard with pitch bender has established itself as the ideal instrument for Carnatic audiences. Nobody remembers the "nadam" of the keyboard or its exact tone or timbre, but people are very happy it can "reproduce gamakaws".
Situation created so much frustration that Keyboardists were brought in - at least to see if they would listen to "notes" - still there seems to be no results.

uday_shankar
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 07:00Which begs the question, when did South Indians ever have an ear for music. They were reacting to the layam of a kriti only - except no musicologist of mamapore ever wants to admit it.
When listening to Arunagirinathar, certainly the meter is the most prominent feature but ancient Tamil music had purely tonal/melodic constructs like the Panns. Besides, all cultures have some tonal aspect to their music. Certainly Tamil music too. Nothing compares to a Tamil viruttam sung by Sethalapathy Balu in traditional ragas like Bhairavi (Kausikam) or Kamboji (Takkesi). That's pure melody, and metrical aspects if any are extremely underemphasized.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

Yeah Sri Sethapathi Balu was discovered by many of us outsiders in Sangeetham.com and I heard his recording for the first time in my life in this board.

Well even me the arm chair could randomly get to hear one of his sons, the Mridangists in a concert early enough, 2002 to be precise.

How many people know him? My intention is not to undermine his memory. But the point has to be made nevertheless. I have lived in West mambalam for one full year 1992/93 and would not fail to catch events at Ayodhya Mandapam - did not get to discover him. I frequented the place almost every weekend from the hostel the previous 4 years - did not find him.

So there you go!!

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

And when you said Sri Sethalapathi rendered viruttams you gave yourself away. You lost the entire point. chandam/meter is quite abstract I suppose, not the concrete ones listed in the Sastras. Many sites say the chanda sAStra is lost. What we likely have is implementations of the concept - much newer ones than the original.

Now I want to bring in an observation in some other thread:
srikant1987 wrote: 04 Apr 2018, 19:49 I don't remember how the conversation started and proceeded, but I observed that possibly the printing press led to prose literature becoming more common. When literature is orally transmitted, all the extra grammar helps preserve the contents accurately. This becomes unimportant for written literature.

Prose offers some solid advantages in that you can focus on the idea and the subject rather than the metre and the rhyme.
This is made in hindsight - it feels to me. A civilization in search of beauty can only construct a well made language that has vallina/mellina ( hard/soft) consonant balance in most words - and has umpteen words for lotus. And dhIrga hrasva (long/short) balance or alternative words to fit one's need.

Tamizh even if it has some limitations there is still versatile , still has the concept of beauty embedded in the language. The concept is as old as sangam literature. Thirumugaptrupadai by Nakeerar dwells on Srngara so much.

The 12 Vowels are identified with the beauty of Muruga whose very name means beauty. The ayudha ezhuttu symbolizes his weapon.

Later in tantra tradition, language itself is beautified: bhAsha rUpa is how the divine Mother is addressed.

The beauty of music builds on such felicitous beauty and robust structure of the language.

uday_shankar
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 11:13 The beauty of music builds on such felicitous beauty and robust structure of the language.
Meh. The beauty of music builds on the felicitous beauty and robust structure of purely tonal primitives known as panns, mettus, ragas, etc

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Some can't perceive the abstract beauty of tonality, others are insensitive to the beauty of language. Some respond to meter and laya more than others.
Last edited by uday_shankar on 07 Apr 2018, 13:37, edited 1 time in total.

jodha
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by jodha »

So, gayaki ang is only a notion .is it not , that seems to be the main obstacle in the inclusion of many instruments for adaptation !

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 12:22
shankarank wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 11:13 The beauty of music builds on such felicitous beauty and robust structure of the language.
Meh. The beauty of music builds on the felicitous beauty and robust structure of purely tonal primitives known as panns, mettus, ragas, etc
Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
I asked in the lounge - what is the concept of beauty inherent to the language of English ( metaphorically you could extend that to XYZ language of Europe). You gave the answer here. The predominantly individualistic nature of the west is out - right there. The hunter gatherers civilized with short cuts.

The hunter gatherers in India , the land of Ramayana, were civilized with chandas : the syllables rAma.

If you consider vEdic as one origin of language in India, language and music were together and mantra cannot be written down - ever! And musical sounds and the language were together.
uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 12:22 Some can't perceive the abstract beauty of tonality, others are insensitive to the beauty of language. Some respond to meter and laya more than others.
Those who enjoy, Karahara priya , SrI ranjani and Salaka bhairavi have been trained to listen to it - it mostly appeals to people who are trained in music nowadays or those that are SSI fans in the thing called close knit music community. I wonder how many would have requested SSI to sing those rAgAs.

See this request here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Wo1FQXKjM

How many times instrumentalists played this? You are talking about repertoire - and want special ones for instrumentalists. I once asked Shashank to play something like this. His father replied: You are asking him to play Carnatic music. He is a generalist and would like to focus on virtuosity and techniques!!

I will tell you what - the popular tyAgarAja kritis are instrumental repertoire - not vocal. Vocalists were also singing them like instruments where a nAdasvaram artiste would draw breath!!

And listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3NEFkFuyo

if a Mridangist ( vAyilla pUcchi - a mouthless insect) can do so much with his instrument - why cannot other instrumentalists?

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

The claim that instrumental music in Carnatic music is an adaptation of gAyaki style is the biggest fraud perpetrated on the Carnatic music community!!!
Last edited by shankarank on 07 Apr 2018, 22:47, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

It takes a rich guy from an influential family, born of privileges - to sing this in the YACM era!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orY46r4qv-w

He pauses to announce the rAgA, and the entire sabha and stage resonates with majesty just on that announcement. The pause and the announcement and the pause before he resumes are musical! I heard this multiple times the last few days and everytime the announcement comes up, it sends goose bumps through me. And when he sings the repertoire, a meeting of the sensuous with majesty takes place!

Of course I hard heard this - as I bought the Charsur recording - many times. Always captivated by it. Realized it's significance when Dr Nina Prasad enacted a dance on it in the recent nATya kala conference.

And the original first?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj2RzUbLcX8

Does it have the Hindustani kApi as claimed? Look at how vintage the tumbling down of Mridangam at various points.

Here he reminisces about it: First karaharapriya : https://youtu.be/jMMo-WoAQOM?t=345 . What is the "smart" thing about mey maraci? That he talks about?

and then sUma sAyaka:

https://youtu.be/jMMo-WoAQOM?t=380

Forget instrumentalists - How many vocalists have attempted to learn this and sing this? All of them want to sing cakkani rAja, with quite a few of them not having enough layam in their singing.

uday_shankar
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 19:07and want special ones for instrumentalists.
Excuse me, I don't want anything. I am perfectly satisfied with the status quo. With that I exit the cesspool of ravings that you have turned this thread into.

RSR
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by RSR »

jodha wrote: 06 Apr 2018, 19:47 Recently I heard a hindustani classical concert in clarionet.While we too have artists in carnatic there are only a few may be because saxophone stole that slot.
.......
AKC Natarajan .You surely have heard about him and heard him.
Nadhamuni band have given quite a few bewitching records. of CM krithis. especially 'nadachi nadachi in karaharapriya
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As Smt MS advised, HM and CM have different lakshyams and lakshanams ( if I may use those words). Nagaswaram I would say, is incomparable for CM and it automatically invokes the South Indian cultural ambience.

RSR
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by RSR »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 06:05 The approach to instrumental music is different in CM and HM.

In HM, each "traditional" instrument like sitar, sarod, sarangi, rudra vina, shehnai has its own repertoire and the approach towards improvisation is different not only between instruments but between gharanas. For example, a Sarod player usually doesn't play a "Sitar gat" and so on...
Interesting you mention nagasvaram, the only traditional instrument in CM with its own repertoire, such as Mallari. Other than that,
every instrument in CM is simply an attempt make as close a carbon copy of the vocal repertoire as possible... which begs the question, why have instruments at all when everybody has to play the exact same thing.

=======================================================================================
jugalbandhi by Ravisankar in Sitar and Ali Akbar Khan in Sarod, ?

While I am in agreement with your ideas on ragam, rhythm , I would also add lyrical ,literary beauty and theme .Famous CM Instrumentalists like Flute Mali, TNR, Chowdiah, Sambasiva Iyer, Narayana Iyengar, Sanjeeva Rao, Rajamanickam Pillai, and forgotten jalatharangam experts of yore...come to mind. Were they simply imitating the vocalists? Certain things can be done in Instrumental music which even the best vocalist cannot achieve.
Secondly, switching over to pure instrumental music may be the way to cross the barriers of language, bad lyrics and theme and such controversies.

uday_shankar
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by uday_shankar »

RSR wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 23:54Were they simply imitating the vocalists?
Yes they were, and were judged by the quality of their imitation :). So the current evaluation of poor Chowdiah's playing is not great. His contemporaneous fans were far more broad minded and open to new ideas. More to the point all those instrumentalists mentioned played the same varnams, kritis, etc and approached neraval, swaraprastharas, etc exactly like their vocal counterparts. There were/are no special compositions/techniques/cadences/etc unique to particular instruments, which may be the bedrock of any kind of instrumental music, that have gained acceptance as part of the "tradition". For example, even the famed ghana-raga-taanam playing on vina is pretty much along the lines of vocal music.

Kids learning sitar have a separate learning schedule and repertoire from kids learning vocal music in HM. In CM, everybody has the same schedule... varisais, alankarams, varnams, kritis, etc etc...
RSR wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 23:54Secondly, switching over to pure instrumental music may be the way to cross the barriers of language, bad lyrics and theme and such controversies.
I don't understand the point, if any, being made here.

jodha
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by jodha »

But kritis like niravadhisukhada nagumomu raghuvamsasudha are more appealing in instruments.I would say none of the vocalists so far could beat that .here I think the vocalists tried to copy the vaadhya ang to their level best.
A friend of mine not a professional will learn a kriti only by listening to instruments after taking the lyrics.he says it is easy for him to imbibe that way.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 08 Apr 2018, 05:05 So the current evaluation of poor Chowdiah's playing is not great.
அபஸ்ருதிக்கு எத்தனை தந்தி வேண்டும் என்று கேட்டவர்களுக்கு இப்போ அபஸ்ருதிக்கு எத்தனை பாடகர்கள் வேண்டும் என்று கேள்வி மாறிவிட்டது!!

For those who asked for dissonance how many strings do you need, the question has been changed to for dissonance how many vocalists do you need?

It seems his extra strings produced enough volume for the mikeless era! But if you are tuned to appreciate the laya viSrAnti in angArakam Asrayamyaham, you will truly appreciate his accompaniment to Sri Madurai Mani Iyer.

Compositions were not created for the abstract musical appreciation of some European aristocracy. Even the king deified himself did'nt he? He was considered embodiment of the divine.

Now you have wallets that are ready to pay if only you have the right production. So go for it!!

Or you have to latch on to some cause! Look for an NGO.

MadhavRayaprolu
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 06:05 The approach to instrumental music is different in CM and HM.

Interesting you mention nagasvaram, the only traditional instrument in CM with its own repertoire, such as Mallari. Other than that, every instrument in CM is simply an attempt make as close a carbon copy of the vocal repertoire as possible... which begs the question, why have instruments at all when everybody has to play the exact same thing... I think the keyboard with pitch bender has established itself as the ideal instrument for Carnatic audiences. Nobody remembers the "nadam" of the keyboard or its exact tone or timbre, but people are very happy it can "reproduce gamakaws".
Great observations!

But I don’t think we can go too far into making value judgements though or saying that instruments should exist only if they have their distinct styles. Ultimately both HM and CM are about raga bhava, anything else is just icing on the cake, so there is more similarity than not when a raga is played on different instruments. Plus you get some practical benefits - more variety of tones as you say, more opportunities for musicians with bad voices, better ranges, better speeds in some cases etc.

There are other factors at play here too. The backbone of CM is the compositions of trinity and the ones inspired by them. There is nothing like that in HM. HM compositions are mostly launchpads for developing ragas and have relatively less value in isolation. So instrumental music in CM has to depend on the traditional compositions whereas the ones in HM have less to lose if they don’t play the traditional vocal compositions.

The other factor is, some of the popular instruments in HM like sitar/sarod/santoor have inherent limitations in imitating vocals. The sound doesnt sustain, and given how important steady notes are in vocal HM, they don’t even have a choice of imitating vocals. Some of the gamakams also sound very different and not imitable perfectly on these instruments. So the distinct styles of HM instrumental music is as much born out of necessity. In CM, the most popular instrument violin doesn’t have the same limitations, so people are just as happy to imitate vocals, and only leverage instrument-specific sounds for minor stylistic reasons. Veena arguably has more of such limitations, so perhaps could use styles more tailored to Veena. Perhaps it needs to emphasize elements like tanam that sound particularly good on that instrument. But I’d argue that the limitations of imitating vocals are less pronounced than the above mentioned HM instruments because CM is more in madhyalay, doesn’t depend on sustained notes, etc.

RSR
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by RSR »

RSR wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 23:54Were they simply imitating the vocalists?
uday_shankar
Yes they were, and were judged by the quality of their imitation
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Sorry that I am unable to agree with that sweeping line. There is a nice thread on T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai in rasikas. Famous vocalists like Semmangudi have gone on record saying that they were trying to 'imitate' TNR and not vice versa. Personally, TNR's Janaki Ramana is the model for other famous vocalists.. I came to that krithi only through TNR. and cannot feel that his rendition has been equaled.
It stands to reason, Human voice has many limitations and there is age factor also. Instrumentalists gain in quality of music with advancing age! to a certain extent.. though age affects them also.
There may be many more instances where Instrumentalists excel vocalists. Especially when not tied down to this or that krithi.
And does your opinion apply to Lalgudi Jayaraman, too?
There are some sound tracks in Film Meera ( Hindi) . These were finer than the finest songs of the film.
http://hindi-films-songs.com/1947069401 ... angeet.mp3
http://hindi-films-songs.com/1947069408 ... angeet.mp3
http://hindi-films-songs.com/1947069414 ... pieces.mp3
http://hindi-films-songs.com/1947069417 ... kho_ji.mp3
( from hemachandrajain's letter)
Sad that pure instrumental music , when not associated with a recognizable krithi or ragam, is prone not to linger in memory.
'memory of music fled'!

jodha
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by jodha »

Writing kritis or sahithyam brings such conditions.
Mozart & Beethovan's music are lingering even after almost a century

RSR
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by RSR »

@18-> Sri.Madhav-> CM codified may be said to have originated with Purandharadasa 1500 AD, while the Trinity belonged to the decades in beginning of 1800. . I wonder if we know about all the composers in tamil country during those three hundred years. How the native tamil music system of Pallava ( 600 AD) and later Imperial Cholas (1000 AD) got submerged in Telugu compositions mostly ( Naicker rule?). and most early composers seem to have been almost native speakers of Telugu! ( court language?)
======================================================
@20-> Delinking music and lyrics ( sahityam ) ? yes. Agreed.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

jodha wrote: 08 Apr 2018, 16:46 Writing kritis or sahithyam brings such conditions.
Mozart & Beethovan's music are lingering even after almost a century
I cannot believe there is so much anathema against languages. What he posted is "take" music! Perfected in a Studio with multiple takes. Yes it informs about certain qualities in general of Indian music. But that is not it.

I can understand his angst based on how he received music. But he has to see beyond that. Somehow we don't apply the same standard to people who received the music via sAhitya and we think they are deciphering meaning of the kritis and reacting to it. Not that they may not.

But it is beneath our being , to even consider that words can be spoken for their beauty and not meaning. This is the intellectual subversion India has undergone!

And one look at lakshana gItams of SrI Purandara dAsa ( you should again sit in a class where a child learns and observe carefully again) - what is unsaid. What will be said of course, will be the child should correct her Sruti - when she falters. Just wait for the second kAlam and see how it flows and what are the challenges.

viewtopic.php?t=92&start=25 - there they talk about MDR and kamalajAsana - there is more to be said than what they say there - they are discussing melody.

shankarank
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Re: Adaptation of instruments in Indian classical music

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Apr 2018, 07:52 Certainly Tamil music too. Nothing compares to a Tamil viruttam sung by Sethalapathy Balu in traditional ragas like Bhairavi (Kausikam) or Kamboji (Takkesi)..
And we know why he languished unknown to anybody. The temple culture and traditions were under systematic assault from forces inimical to them. How many such traditions did we lose?- we all know don't we?

There was physical destruction in the North and psychological warfare in the South now.

Even under such circumstances - traditions that had a strong guru parampara in home environs and solid methodology and meta physics associated with them survived and recovered. So I could see his son on stage with Mridangam!

Saivism after Manonmaniam sundaranar is being converted to Sivanism and he was only too eager to link it and compare it more to western theologies inspired by who? Caldwell.

Then Lingayats now!

So all that is simply Indian history of 1000 years writ over it. Do we need to read the NCERT history?!

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