Why students discontinue music lessons

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Sivaramakrishnan
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#1 Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

I have observed that except those who belong to a rich musical lineage or immensely talented, most students of music discontinue lessons as their level of formal schooling progress i.e. X, +2 etc.

Interestingly the situation is 'better' with those already abroad who keep in touch with the teachers even while on jobs. In homeland, tuitions are continued only if there are plans to take music as a profession. Though Skype has come in as a boon, the level of dedication varies. Talented girls, equally good at studies (Engineering, mostly) get good grades, get married to NRIs and settle abroad. They don't hesitate to leave the 'Indian' jobs (for which they toiled hard) in the process!

Boys learn music to a certain extent and invariably say goodbye when the voice 'breaks'. There are a section of boys and girls who continue lessons for participation in 'reality shows' in media or who turn to the media industry.

I admit this is a 'tattered debate' but still engages our attention . A friend of mine told that ways of making the elementary lessons interesting need to be studied. I don't know to what extent institutionalised cyber classes are effective. Many who missed learning music when young approach gurus after settling down in their career though this is hailed as a win-win situation.

Musicians like Shashikiran could throw more light into the state of affairs.

sankark
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#2 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by sankark »

I think the main reason is once you start learning you come to know how much time consuming it is, how tough it is and how much repeated practice is required day in day out; and then these three collide with other life/entertainment/time-pass demands.

And in many cases, the parents trying to vicariously live their lives through their offspring. And those offspring revolt at some point and say enough is enough.

Purist
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#3 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Purist »

I have learnt many boys and girls on reaching 10th /plus 2 classes have to focus hard on studies
to chart out their academics. Our education system being fiercely competitive it is quite but natural that
priorities get shifted. Once out for a long duration, very few get back to persue further.

Nick H
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#4 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Nick H »

And, along with that goes teacher/student focus and parental pressure on being able to perform rather than simply to enjoy music.

A slightly different aspect of the parental-pressure thing is where it is based on the acquisition of goals like badges, eg where it falls away sharply after that required arangetram, regardless of the level of skill, poor or great, demonstrated on that stage. This often occurs at the time Purist mentions, where focus on qualification, moving on to career, becomes most intense. And when mating rituals become more important than music.

SrinathK
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#5 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by SrinathK »

Boys have it hard - voice breaks just when academic pressure heats up - it's almost MBA school right from then on. Then college is no less demanding (and you have to travel also) and before you know it, bam, you're in a job and the corporate grind expects you to essentially drop dead as soon as possible so that they can cut costs and have a 2 min silence in your honor before replacing you with the next goat for 21st century style slaughter. And then marriage, and then you have the next generation doing the same thing.

To go into music, youngsters must make their mark very young (sacrificing much of childhood) and be ready to slog it out, and focus on being decently good enough at the academic side enough that they acquire some job relevant skills (Plan B, if plan A fails) and they must be into full time performing by the time they are out of college (for which a certain degree of financial independence is also necessary). It's a risk - at some point, music MUST become the full time 9 to 7 job. There is no full time musician today who hasn't started out very young, some prodigies too young.

Those who succeeded today are the ones who took that risk, and stayed on longer than others. They are essentially the 'last man standing'. If it was hard before, it's even harder now, even though opportunities to learn, listen and perform have increased and there is an unlimited wealth of musical resources out there.

Some parents of talented kids have therefore resorted to home schooling them, with good results too. I wonder what they plan to do for college.

Now I'd like to make a statement --- that much of what you need to know up to Undergrad or even a masters is now out there for free or quite cheap (while ironically schools and colleges push students into student debt now) - especially engineering, languages, anything related to software, finance, data analytics (the current big boom), economics or anything for a B.Sc or M.Sc degree, or even the share market - these can all easily be self taught with the college existing just to give you some opportunities, the needed degree and some infrastructure for practical work (I know what they teach in colleges, and at what level, even ones like IIT, so I know what I'm talking about -- any engineering exam in India can be cracked with a good set of books and tutors and practice). You can build your own robots as a hobby if you wish instead of depending on a college for it. We have those resources today.

I have no idea what medicine or law school involves. And if you are the type who badly wants music as a profession, you really have no use for an MBA except student debt.

Some of my friends intent on pursuing music just go and do a masters or a Ph.D from a college which they can clear without too much effort, and in the spare time they have, they just pursue music full time.

As for that broken voice, it only becomes as good as before in your mid 20s, and only by your 30s is the tone fully back.

RSR
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#6 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

1) Are we not teaching languages, science and social sciences (basic history, social ethics, environmental issues) compulsorily to all the students in Tamilnadu right from Elementary school? The Education minister has indicated today that the syllabus will be framed to teach subjects related to water resource management and such rural oriented subjects. Good thing. ..Are we teaching languages only in schools and leave the rest to private tuition? ( for those who can afford?). Why not include CM as a compulsory subject right from elementary school to plus2 ( included) level? Will it not ensure that CM awareness becomes widespread and non-elitist?
2) Is not rasikathvam more important than being a performer? Do all people who read the Bard try to emulate him? (God forbid!) . Can they? On that account shall we stop teaching and learning Literature?
3) I am not familiar with the situation in Western Countries like England and Western Europe. but I believe that youngsters who aspire to learn WCM ( not pop and rock) are not vocalists at all but all of them learn western musical instruments only. Total freedom from lyrics and theme. What is so great about being a professional vocalist? Expertise in Instrumental music can be acquired over the years by intense practice but very few have the gift of voice culture that could be maintained over the years.
4) The existing krithios are not going to vanish just because we switch over to Instrumental music learning and exposition.
5) We must discourage the business culture of CM vocalist profession. of both genders . Music should not be for
a career.

Sivaramakrishnan
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#7 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Thanks Srinath and RSR for the succinct observations and valuable suggestions.

Nick H
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#8 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Nick H »

RSR, the last thing that I heard about music in general education in "the west," by which I personally mean UK, is that it had been non-funded almost out of existence. And that notwithstanding the opinions that, unlike sport, which will always get support, music encourages a non-competitive forum of cooperative team work which is highly beneficial to development.

But if you think that teaching a subject creates enthusiasm, other than in the few who have it anyway, you are living in an unreal world. Nothing destroys enthusiasm more than making it compulsory.

Best case outcome... Your CM-educated teens will be humming ragas as they seek porn on the Internet, rather than film/pop. Sorry for the intrusion of distasteful reality.

RSR
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#9 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

@7-> Sri.Sivaramakrishnan-> Sir, Thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------
@8->Nick-> I liked the first para.
"music encourages a non-competitive forum of cooperative team work which is highly beneficial to development.'.
. I think, you are referring to WCM for the last 3 centuries.
The other paras , I am unable to agree with. All education, especially in very early childhood and upto atleast adolescence , is never voluntary. An element of compulsion and discipline is inherent . It is unavoidable and desirable too. Of course, the compulsion from elders, parents , teachers and leaders should be in a form that would be combined with affection and real concern for the welfare of the student. 'spare the rod and spoil the child'.

Is it because our little boy/girl likes languages, science, maths and such subjects, like them, that they are learning them from elementary school level ?Are we giving them option? It is the job of the educators to understand psychology of learning and make the subjects as interesting and informal as possible. Above all, knowledge of CM should be seen as a treasure by the children. Can be done.

In olden days, even in CM training, was not strictest discipline enforced? Was not learning by rote the universal method? A plant has to be tended very carefully before it becomes strong enough to resist and not not easily destroyed by harmful forces...
A very nice article on the state of Western Classical music in Germany follows in the next post. I am sure , you would find it thought-provoking.

RSR
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#10 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

The state of classical music in Germany

https://www.goethe.de/en/kul/mus/gen/kla/6475210.html
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A few lines from the nice article.
"
Germany is perceived as a “country of music”. The reason lies in its cultural heritage and the concentration of orchestras, choirs, opera and concert halls, festivals, and education and advanced training opportunities which are unrivaled anywhere else in the world. Fostering this rich variety is essential.
Germany is known as the land of poets and thinkers, and this includes musicians as well. Händel and Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, Schumann and Schütz, Wagner and Hindemith, Weill and Stockhausen – hardly an era has passed when Germany has not spawned a world-renowned classical musician
For centuries the fostering of culture in Germany has been widely dispersed, and not the burden of the state. And it is no different with music. The responsibility falls to the cities, communities and to the federal states. How else could it be? No country could look after the more than 130 orchestras, all of which are rely on funding. This reality has both its advantages and disadvantages.

The United States provides evidence of what results when the public sector is not involved in cultural promotion: the death of one orchestra after the next. Those who want to limit the state’s obligation to promote culture have forgotten that culture is both a hard and soft location factor for a community‘s desirability.
....

Nick H
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#11 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Nick H »

Yes, basic education has some element of compulsion behind it. But I don't think you breed love of an art through compulsion. You breed boredom with it, and the desire to give it up as soon as possible. As per your extract, the state can promote and support art and culture: making it compulsory is not so easy.

Pratyaksham Bala
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#12 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature (religious), are also of vaishnavaite tradition. (Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara). . In fact a close study of Indian culture reveals the Vaishanava tradition to have been central to Indian culture.
Why not include CM as a compulsory subject right from elementary school to plus2 ( included) level?

harimau
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#13 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by harimau »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 25 Apr 2018, 03:06
Why not include CM as a compulsory subject right from elementary school to plus2 ( included) level?
What?

And have T M Krishna go on a tirade about how Brahminical culture is being used to brainwash non-Brahmin children? :lol:

sankark
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#14 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by sankark »

harimau wrote: 25 Apr 2018, 06:23
Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 25 Apr 2018, 03:06
Why not include CM as a compulsory subject right from elementary school to plus2 ( included) level?
What?

And have T M Krishna go on a tirade about how Brahminical culture is being used to brainwash non-Brahmin children? :lol:
Outrage is an industry :) There you have a new career option - Outrage Manager.

Pratyaksham Bala
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#15 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

RSR wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 13:17... Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature (religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. (Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara) .. In fact a close study of Indian culture reveals the Vaishanava tradition to have been central to Indian culture.
RSR wrote: 24 Apr 2018, 10:35... Why not include CM as a compulsory subject right from elementary school to plus2 (included) level?
harimau :

You may please read both the quotes together and make a comment !

srikant1987
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#16 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by srikant1987 »

sankark wrote:Outrage is an industry
:idea:
<Vehement nod>
sankark wrote:There you have a new career option - Outrage Manager.
Outrage is not to be managed. It is to be unleashed! :twisted:

SrinathK
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#17 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by SrinathK »

Seeking and getting outraged seems to be the 5th purushartha these days.

If CM was made cotmpulsory, it is only a matter of time before the word "Brahminiarchy" will become part of the English dictionary, although it's also a fact that the music chooses it's lovers, and not the other way around.

RSR
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#18 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

1) The practice of taking special tuition class for students who can afford to pay, is very much frowned upon by the Govt , Rightly so.

2) As a concession to plus2 students who are under tremendous strain in those two years, I suggest that we make CM compulsory from first grade to tenth class only.

3) if we are sincere enthusiasts of CM, would we not welcome the scenario when literally three lakh students per year gain atleast basic knowledge in CM and our traditions? That means, over the coming decade, there will be an addition of 30 lakhs rasikas of CM in Tamilnadu. Would it not be an achievement, compared to the situation now in the rural areas of the state?

4) The impression of people observing the students in cities may be different but I can assert that for the toddlers, young boys and girls from rural and poor households , the teachers are loved as much as their parents if not more !

Especially in the first five years in elementary school, teachers' word is Law. That culture is retained by good many even in plus2 and higher studies. It is the attitude that counts. It is also amazing, how the children in that age group hang on every word of the teacher and try their best to gain the approval and affection. Gradually only, they become selective and cynical about some of their teachers, and this may be partly be due the teachers' fault only. I am stressing this just the bring home the point that initiation into CM is best done at that tender age. and its effect lasts for a life time.

5) Just as there are innovative and interesting methods of teaching English in Elementary schools, ( with just basic grammar, they move ahead to short pieces in literature supplanted by films of the classics), the CM lessons need not begin with the traditional methods but straight away move to good and famous compositions in Tamizh. ( the language is most important). We have hundreds of free mp3 to play in class room.

6) Why do we always get bogged down in kritis in Telugu, Kannada and Sanskrit? They will learn them very easily after their graduation. The initiation should be only through kritis in their mother tongue. . There are some glorious renderings in Tamizh by Smt.MS, Smt.DKP, and Smt.NCV and also by Mani Iyer, Alathhoor and Danadapani Desikar. Great Tamizh compositions by the pre-trinity Tamil composers and also by Papanasam Sivan.

If the syllabus is framed accordingly, the students will surely know about a hundred fine songs and about 100 ragams. strictly excluding film songs even if in chaste CM That would be enough. There may be fmany great songs rendered by Madurai Somu, M.L.Vasanthakumari, Radha-Jayalakshmi and others, ( non-film) which can be used. What could be simpler that teaching Thiruppaavai as rendred by MLV and the corresponsing hymns from Thiruvempaavai ( who rendered them? Soolamangalam sisters?) . with ragam information?
6) The proposal is not at all utopian or impractical. In many rural schools, a teacher handles more than one subject. Likewise, let us first introduce the subject and gradually, find a way to do it best.
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We need not tremble at the possible blast from the vidwan, because this proposal goes far far beyond anythiong that he could even think of. Just look at the choice of songs and composers / languages in his latest live tube program! How many Tamil songs? How very 'brahmanical'!

RSR
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#19 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

Rural Raga....By Jayanthi Somasundaram | Published: 11th February 2017 10:00 PM |

"As she sings ‘Enakku vendum varangalai’, written by Tamil poet Bharathiyar, 10-year-old Vaishnavi Krishnamoorthy seems to become oblivious to the world around her. Her language is precise, her rhythm intact and there is soul in her voice. Seated in her one-room house in Manjakkudi village, near Kumbakonam, Tamil Nadu, her audience comprises her parents and elder sister. Her father works in the fields for a daily wage, her mother stays at home, her sister is in Class VII and Vaishnavi has just earned herself a scholarship for her good academic record.
“Nobody in my family can sing. I can. I also perform in the school events,” beams the Class V student at Swami Dayananda Matric Higher Secondary School in the village. “Bombay Jayashri ma’am taught me this song. But when she sings ‘Ramachandraya’, I forget myself,” she says and quickly adds that of all the ragas, she likes Kalyani the most. Vaishnavi, who has been learning Carnatic music for the past two years, is excited to speak about her Friday music class conducted by Hitham Trust at her school. There are 250 other students from over 120 neighbouring villages who have signed up for these classes.

“Considering the fact that these children do not have any background in Carnatic music, they have surprised us with their grasping power. In these parts of the world, coming to school itself is still an ordeal. Yet, they make it every week with the same level of enthusiasm,” says Bombay Jayashri Ramnath, Oscar nominee and the founder of Hitham Trust. Since this outreach initiative began in 2013, every week Jayashri or her students have been visiting Manjakkudi to teach classical music to sons and daughters of farmers, lorry drivers, domestic workers and many more. The whole idea was conceptualised during a casual interaction with the students in Manjakkudi. “We first announced a two-day music appreciation course, and to our surprise 60 students signed up,” says Jayashri."
raed more at
http://www.newindianexpress.com/magazin ... 68852.html

Sivaramakrishnan
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#20 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

RSR,
Happy to read about the efforts of Dr Rama Kausalya in
promoting traditional music (in the link: the article in the Indian Express).
I remember visiting her house in Thillaistanam near Tiruvaiyaru a few years ago. A workshop on Thevaram was going on. It was a great experience to listen to the veteran Oduvar teaching verses in ragas including Hamirkalyani to a bunch of dedicated students (most of them teenagers) repeating the verses beautifully. Dr Rama was joining in occasionally much to the encouragement of the learners.

Pallavisree1976
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#21 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

In the US, most parents put their kids for Carnatic music, bharatnatyam, hindustani music, kathak or any other Indian art form just to get some Indian culture in them. Most kids are going to give it up once they reach college because they are more focused on becoming doctors, engineers, lawyers, working at a company like Goldman Sacs, or working on Wallstreet Journal or in some high pressure job that pays six figures salary.

thenpaanan
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#22 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by thenpaanan »

This is at a tangent to the original topic so I beg for some latitude here -- I am trying to put a positive angle for those of us who had to abandon our learning of CM for whatever reason.

To those who have learned CM to whatever level in childhood, how do you remember/use/enjoy CM in adulthood? I am especially interested in those persons for whom enjoying CM in an active way is not easy -- say you are living in some remote part of North India, or some lesser-known city in in Australia or North America, etc, where it is not easy to meet people who share this common interest, how do you use/incorporate your knowledge of CM in activities other than just listening to it for personal pleasure?

-T

ajaysimha
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#23 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by ajaysimha »

here are some points based on my observation -

after a music student reaches 10th/ 12th grade, has certain metal maturity and aspires to be a musician by profession.
parents might might discourage by saying " ippo nee paadi, yaru kekanumnu kathundu irukka?"

parental thoughts might be -
they don't see being musician as great (or it's very hard to survive as musician)
they might be knowing that it's very hard to get in as performing artist into the kutcheri world
and they might not be able to afford the luxury fees of music classes

the other thing is a student will have a willingness in what he learns until he/ she has a role model in the same field.
which may lack in kids that are exposed to only classes and not kutcheries.

mohan
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#24 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by mohan »

thenpaanan wrote: 15 Jun 2020, 11:48 I am especially interested in those persons for whom enjoying CM in an active way is not easy -- say you are living in some remote part of North India, or some lesser-known city in in Australia or North America, etc, where it is not easy to meet people who share this common interest, how do you use/incorporate your knowledge of CM in activities other than just listening to it for personal pleasure?
I was in this situation you describe when I was younger. Living in Australia in the 1970s and 80s, there were very few opportunities to listen to Carnatic music. There was no internet treasure-trove of recordings that we have today. A handful of families who liked and enjoyed Carnatic music in Sydney organised some informal concerts of local musicians but getting an opportunity to hear professional musicians was pretty much non-existent.

When I got an opportunity to visit India, I bought lots of cassettes and books about music and they were my primary source of knowledge. Also, the newsgroup rec.music.indian.classical (RMIC) was a great forum to share ideas and ask questions – like what rasikas.org is now.

There were not many websites that had information on music so that is a reason why I started a Carnatic music website hosted on my personal webpage at university in the early 1990s. Later this became www.carnaticcorner.com
Around the same time, a couple of friends and I explored the opportunity to bring professional Carnatic musicians to Sydney on a regular basis. This led to the formation of Pallavi, Sydney – an organisation which just celebrating its silver jubilee early this year!

Thus, if the passion and drive is there, the interest in Carnatic music can be cultivated anywhere. Nowadays with the internet, online classes, etc location is no barrier at all to cultivating one’s interest in music!

msakella
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#25 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

To tell the fact, the entire process of teaching our music has become cheating. That is why many students drop out very quickly. Testing the students or selecting the students or making them work basing upon their own instinctive abilities and learn things on their own very strictly in a ‘time-bound and result-oriented manner’ has never been systematised since many centuries by any of our legends. Most of our musicians are more of performing perspective but very little of teaching perspective. Till now I have never seen even a single true music-teacher on the globe and, most unfortunately, I was also one among them for most of my life but realised very lately. But, very sadly, none of our musicians are ready to openly discuss these things without any ego or self (however I do not like to discuss these things with any anonymous person). An efficient and honest music-teacher’s role must be restricted to only 1% and the teacher must initiate the student work for more than 99% basing upon his own instinctive abilities. Since last more than 20 years I have very efficiently and honestly been initiating my students in this manner without singing myself Sa or Pa even once in any of the classes and my students are able to sing even creative and mathematical Swarakalpana in all the six popular Talas hardly within an year that too even before learning the first Kriti. Can anyone do this and produce evidence. amsharma

shankarank
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#26 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 15 Jun 2020, 11:48 To those who have learned CM to whatever level in childhood, how do you remember/use/enjoy CM in adulthood? I am especially interested in those persons for whom enjoying CM in an active way is not easy -- say you are living in some remote part of North India, or some lesser-known city in in Australia or North America, etc, where it is not easy to meet people who share this common interest, how do you use/incorporate your knowledge of CM in activities other than just listening to it for personal pleasure?

-T
Well I was in that situation for a while in a Berkshire mountain town - Western Massachusetts. Somehow early 90s, the possibility of getting to meet a CM knowledgeable person even in a boondoggle place was very high. There was this person from Andhra Pradesh and I got an depth introduction into the musical lineage there at least names like Voleti etc. whom I have not heard about before. Internet was new and recordings were not forthcoming.

If you have some training and ability to sing _ I sang with KJY cassetes before I learnt some music - eventually you could push yourself all on your own to sing some: https://soundcloud.com/shankar-krishna- ... ankar-k002 - That is just listening from 3 different sources : MSS (1975 centenary), TMK FM Gold - that really made me want to sing it since it was the first male voice on this one, and then a Prof. SRJ Lec Dem.

This recording is in a Navarathri occasion - recorded by Prof SRJ's son himself - meeting was accidental and a pleasant surprise not planned!

Now rip it apart. I know I cannot breathe for that long passages! I practice without Sruti while driving etc. Hey this is online time - people starving of music. ;)

Hopefully this will trigger other forum members to share their own singing!

shankarank
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#27 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by shankarank »

Pallavisree1976 wrote: 10 Jun 2020, 06:31 In the US, most parents put their kids for Carnatic music, bharatnatyam, hindustani music, kathak or any other Indian art form just to get some Indian culture in them. Most kids are going to give it up once they reach college because they are more focused on becoming doctors, engineers, lawyers, working at a company like Goldman Sacs, or working on Wallstreet Journal or in some high pressure job that pays six figures salary.
That means Carnatic music has a great financial future :lol: . Well if they were loyal to the roots, I should see them starting foundations and inviting practicing musicians! At least that?? Or just give the money - will you?? :x

With all the discussions about sweetness of the music, it's reach to people at large, it's appeal (emotional!) or the lack of it , it's supposedly "wrong/false appeal" (intellectual!), what sustains it is this:

Parents sending kids to learn music, with parents themselves ignorant about the music. And Parents coming into listen to their children compete/perform and alongside may be staying to listen to musicians.

We have successfully sold the idea that listening to music requires some knowledge of music. And we will look at the above as a selfish / parochial act.

But ancient writings actually glorify this. Thiruvalluvar writes that "Those (who will) say the lute and the flute are sweet, they who have not listened to the sweet words of their own child!".

And we talk about SrngAra too!! Isn't enjoying your child put out the first music on stage , the best (unconscious) experience of SrngAra? :D

Somehow that rings true. If there is that connection, this funding of music will happen!

You don't have to abandon learning - just listen to it and support the learned! Listen and learn?

Like Lunch and learn in corporates! - Hey it is Listen and Canteen even in the Mecca! :lol:

Anybody?

sankark
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#28 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by sankark »

Pallavisree1976 wrote: 10 Jun 2020, 06:31 In the US, most parents put their kids for Carnatic music, bharatnatyam, hindustani music, kathak or any other Indian art form just to get some Indian culture in them.
I may be generalizing a bit, but thats a counter to the above generalization, but I suspect most such parents (& kids) do that to put themselves with non-academic cultural/arts related exposure when applying to ivy league colleges.

Its but a very low % that wants the cultural roots, connection, longing for the arts/art-for-art-sake etc. and even lower % of kids that actually delve into it with passion.

shankarank
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#29 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: 03 Jul 2020, 22:32 with non-academic cultural/arts related exposure when applying to ivy league colleges.
Lets reverse that sentence:
ivy league colleges - applying - non-academic.
Even ivy-leagues! , Even ivy leagues! - the ultimate of academic excellence you can imagine in the whole world - are valuing "non-academic". At least can the seekers/applicants of academic excellence learn that sense back from them? Learn some non academic stuff huh? Show that sort of sense to throw some money back? Tamizh saying: "unakku teriyavillaiyenil aDutavaniDam terindukoL"

Einstein was a patent clerk. Ramanujan was a port trust clerk! C V Raman won the nobel with a mere spectroscope. And he studied the Mridangam too!

Well you think they go there for Academics!. The really top ones build fraternities, secret societies, connections, network , access , privilege and finally a Caste system. And they have the temerity to write about such stuff elsewhere! They will research on the same as regards music and write atrocity literature! And consume it too! That is the non-academic stuff!

No dearth of this stuff. idukkellAm oNNum kuRaiccal illai!

shankarank
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#30 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: 03 Jul 2020, 22:32 longing for the arts/art-for-art-sake etc.
Can you define this? What is the basis of this? Does it happen in Mecca of music? Or anywhere in Mylapore? Where do you get this sense from? And what is art?

shankarank
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#31 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by shankarank »

And in India same phenomenon is present in parents with more modest goals shall we say? The kid goes to the drawing class, so the kid can score better in biology to get a medical seat! Even creativity is not in the equation! Only the diagram needs perfected!

Otherwise even if there was a paucity in creativity, any way the "arts" have to come to the rescue huh? Even there "art-for-creativity-sake" not art-sake!

RSR
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#32 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by RSR »

Some people have in-born genius. Not all. Top grade Educational Institutions have great teachers and they chisel their above-average students into greatness. Modern Institutions have many such among the dedicated faculty. However, even such great faculty cannot create worthy disciples, however much they try. Evidently.

Pratyaksham Bala
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#33 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

If a student unfortunately starts learning from an egoistic and peer-hating music teacher, he too will soon become a pessimistic person, and will find it difficult to continue learning music further.

After ridiculing every other teacher, day in and day out, which other teacher can he recommend if at all any of his students wants to learn further?

And, for that matter, on which other teacher his student will have any faith or respect?

That means, none of his students can continue learning music.

Parents have to be extremely cautious in selecting a guru !

msakella
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#34 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Efficient and honest music-teacher always makes the process of teaching very strictly ‘time-bound and result-oriented’ by making the student sing even mathematical and creative Swarakalpana in all the six popular Talas on his own hardly within only one year even before learning the first Kriti while all the other teachers (cheaters) make the student perennially dependent upon the teacher in an illogical manner elongating the process for many years making the aspirant sing a number of items or compositions only by imitating the teacher but without any music-grammar like singing Swarakalakalpana or Ragalapana etc. In this logical plan of learning music no student tries to discontinue from attending the classes. Interested persons can refer the following in which the progress of the aspirants is furnished in a chronological order. amsharma
AMS Jyothirmayi, Sai Meghana & Akhil:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Bwfx1O_rLu
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2515&p=343848#p343848

Pratyaksham Bala
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#35 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Development of positive personality is more important.
Parents should be careful in protecting their children’s future.
They should select a Guru who is positive.

msakella
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#36 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Even though this topic looks like the problem of the students, to tell the fact, mostly this is the problem with the egoistic, selfish, inefficient and dishonest music-teachers only.

In general, Tamilians always stand as head and shoulders in respect of Karnataka Music having sincerely followed, loved, practised, preserved and propagated more than all others. But, at the same time, the egoistic and selfish lot of them did much harm also to music since a long time by bringing out a most illogical system of learning music by which, very pitiably, not only the learner has been made perennially dependent upon the teacher but the process of learning also has wantonly been elongated for many years in learning a number of items and compositions face to face with the teacher but without its grammar like Swarakalpana or Ragalapana etc. Most unfortunately, this all happened as mostly all our musicians, being very highly egoistic and selfish but looks like positive, are mostly of performing perspective and far lesser of teaching perspective making all the difference.

Me too belong to the same category of music-performers-cum-teachers for much of my life. But, only by the grace of the Almighty I have realised very late in 2001 and since been serving our music very efficiently and honestly for which I have been honoured by the Chennai Music Academy with the TTK award in 2010. While receiving this award I have also demonstrated this logical method of learning music in the Music Academy in the restricted duration of 45 mts. which left the learned audience speechless having not understood this properly. Had any of the audience understood it properly he/she would have, by this time, come out and proved that he/she can also do this very easily. But, till date, nobody did this and this obviously proves that none of them can do it at all.

And, at the same time, when my friend late Nageshwaran approached me and requested me to train his 11 yr. old grand-daughter, Chi. Shreenidhi in this logical method of learning music I have agreed with pleasure and trained her hardly in 10 months by telephone from Hyderabad and made her successfully sing a mini-concert of 45 mts. along with a Varnam both in Chaturashra & Trisra-gatis and a Chapu-tala Kriti with intricate Swarakalpana and Ragalapana in the Rasikas Global meet held in Dec., 2010 in Chennai (https://youtu.be/c6PzLGv8xFw).

Even though many of the Chennaites are very well aware of all these facts which mainly help both the aspirants and their parents too in saving their invaluable time, energy and money abundantly, most unfortunately, none of these egoistic and selfish musicians are not interested at all as this system is not financially beneficial to the teachers. All the more, they cannot do so as they all have, since a very long time, been used to the age old monotonous system of singing themselves and making the aspirants also sing along with them at the time of teaching.

Moreover, it seems that all these music-teachers do not also like to take any responsibility of inculcating the knowledge of managing both the even (Chaturashra) and odd (Trisra) gatis or singing Swarakalpana or Ragalapana etc., in the student. That is why they all have created an illusion that the items of Manodharma Sangita could neither be written or taught or learnt but could be acquired only by constant listening and strenuous practice. Only to facilitate this they all have even omitted 1.Talaprastara 2. Swaraprastara 3.Symbolised notation 4. Categorising and defining the different oscillations of notes and 5.Trisra-gati from all the sysllabi of all the music examinations in the South India (however, I have successfully included the Trisra-gati in the music-syllabus of the Madras University through one of my friends).

Many such vital points have already been narrated in my another sub-thread 'AMS Easy Methods - 2007' of the main thread 'Beginners Q & A - Learning area' and truly interested persons can go through them, if needed. amsharma

Ranganayaki
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#37 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Ranganayaki »

How do many of these cheating teachers end up having students who are advanced in their abilities in carnatic? We have a large number of young people learning really well from so MANY different teachers. That’s a fact that we have all experienced.

Or are you only talking about unknown mediocre teachers with run-of-the-mill students who don’t develop the passion and end up dropping out? You don’t seem to make any distinction, the only distinction i have seen over the years in your posts is between you and all other teachers. You seem to be generalizing. Are there any good teachers at all in your view?

Nick H
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#38 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Nick H »

Ranganayaki wrote: 15 Jul 2020, 18:49How do many of these cheating teachers end up having students who are advanced in their abilities in carnatic? We have a large number of young people learning really well from so MANY different teachers. That’s a fact that we have all experienced.
It is not a fact according to some. It is better to leave them to their separate reality --- in other threads.

msakella
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#39 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

At this fag end of 83 yrs. I am not writing all these facts either to convince or to find fault with any musician or to get any Sangita Kalanidhi or Padmashree or any Degree or for any other self aggrandisement but only to make the relevant people aware of the facts and figures.

Without pulling the student along with me and without singing Sa or Pa even once in any of the music-classes I have been able to push my student further and further making him/her able to sing both creative and mathematical Swarakalpana in all the six popular Talas even before learning the first Kriti hardly within one year very strictly basing upon a logical system of learning. Efficient and honest teachers only can understand me and all others certainly think otherwise for which I can't help. amsharma

Ranganayaki
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#40 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by Ranganayaki »

Nick H wrote: 16 Jul 2020, 00:42

It is not a fact according to some. It is better to leave them to their separate reality --- in other threads.
Your point’s taken.

msakella
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#41 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Presently in our Telugu States only a few of the enthusiastic young music-teachers (not the adamant elders of course) have very honestly and successfully been saving the invaluable time, energy and money of nearly 2 to 3 hundred young aspirants in getting higher standards in minimum duration following this logical system of learning.

If 'we all have experienced' teachers why can't even a single one of them openly comes out and prove like me with chronological evidence that he/she can certainly do it in a better way and in a lesser duration than me helping the poor aspirants in saving their invaluable time, energy and money abundantly? Anybody can even very easily get me expunged from this forum itself but it is not that easy to prove it like me. However, all this obviously reveals that all these teachers are of very high selfishness, shamelessness and inability too in helping our kids. amsharma

msakella
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#42 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Even the legends of our music do not agree with me at all, but, to tell the bare truth, comparatively with the students of the western music, our students of Karnataka music have been feeling a hell of time with all our music-cheaters since a very long time. As they do not know what they do not know none of them dares even to complain.

Most unfortunately, all the present musicians are mostly of performing perspective and very little of teaching perspective but, very funnily, they all think themselves as great teachers doing all the things just contrarily against the interests of the poor and innocent students.

For a little example, it helps a lot to the poor student if a composition is furnished along with a symbolised notation or even with a detailed notation, at the least, and along with an audio CD of the same. I have been giving like this along with the general notation, detailed notation and symbolised notation and also along with an audio CD since last 30 years in our Telugu States. Even for mathematical Svarakalpana and brief Ragalapana too I have been giving them like this. How many music-teachers are doing so? Why don't they do so and what obstructs them in doing so? Nobody dares even to discuss all such irregularities and illogicalties these poor and innocent students are compelled to face. amsharma

msakella
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#43 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Most surprisingly, instead of making the process of learning music easier and quicker for the benefit of both the aspirants and their parents as well our music-cheaters are deliberately making harm not only by elongating the process for many years only in learning a number of items and compositions even without the most required grammar like Swarakalpana & Ragalapana but also in making the poor and innocent student as a perennial dependent upon the teacher. Except sqeezing few more bucks from these poor and innocent students and their parents and thus deliberately wasting their invaluable time, energy and money I do not understand what pleasure these music-cheaters are getting by thrushing this suicidal process of teaching music upon their heads.

Instead of wasting their invaluable time and energy merely in learning a number of items and compositions even without the most required grammar like Swarakalpana & Ragalapana depending upon the teacher is it not preferable if the student works independently basing upon his own instinctive abilities and learns not only the knowledge to proceed further and further in learning the barest minimum number of items and compositions by managing with both the rhythm and note simultaneously but also the knowledge in singing the most required grammar of Swarakalpana & Ragalapana even before learning the first Kriti that too hardly within the duration of only one year? Not only a cheater but even a traitor will not do such harm to our own kids but our music-cheaters are able to do this deliberately. What a pity!!! amsharma

msakella
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#44 Re: Why students discontinue music lessons

Post by msakella »

Our great music legends tell that Westerners brought out their foolproof natational system very easily for their kids as they do not have Gamakas or creative music. But, the question is while the Westerners could solve their need of music why our great legends are unable to solve our need of music bringing out a suitable natational system for our kids. If we go deep into this problem we will certainly find the sole cause of this problem stops at the egoistic, selfish and ignorant nature of our great legends.

To solve this problem of our kids the efficient and honest teacher must make a perfect plan to meet the need of our kids which has never been done honestly by any of our music-teachers. Even though Subbarama Dikshitar, the grandson of Mutthuswamy Dikshitar, brought out his monumental work, Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshani, along with hundreds of compositions in symbolised notation for the first time in the history, which is very highly helpful for our kids, our great legends, instead of using, encouraging others in using them ond propagating them, have very conveniently ditched them without any foresight.

Moreover, instead of clearly categorising and defining the different oscillations of our music according to the present need, very sadly, our great legends are following the age old Gamaka-system furnished in the Sangita Ratanakara of 12th century. That's why I have categorised, defined and brought out 60 symbolised Gamakas and furnished 36 Ragalapanas using them in my book, Sangita Svararaga Sudha for the first time in the history.

Like this our music-teachers have been used to deliberately commit so many irregularities and illogicalties in respect of these poor and innocent students of music which can be proved at any time and place, if needed. amsharma

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