Isaiththamizh

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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sankark
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Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Isaiththamizh

Post by sankark »

http://www.tamilnation.co/culture/music ... murthy.htm

landed there searching for sIkAmaram paN (is that same as MMG?)

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Isaiththamizh

Post by kvchellappa »

Somewhere I read that Sri Thyagaraja also drew inspiration from the pans of thevaram.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Isaiththamizh

Post by kvchellappa »

Kudimiyamalai Inscription on Music - Heritage Treasure
heritagetreasure.in/articles/kudimiyamalai-inscription-on-music/
Dec 28, 2015 - Shadaba(va) corresponds to the Pan Sikamaram which is the same as Nadanamakriya raga; Sadharita of Sadhari pan corresponds to the raga Pantuvarali 51stmela); Panchamais Pan Panchamam same as Ahiri raga;Kaisikamadhyama is based on the svaras of Sankarabharanawhich was known as Pan ...

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Isaiththamizh

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Earlier discussion on related subject :-
viewtopic.php?t=8893

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Isaiththamizh

Post by sankark »

Thanks PB.
srkris wrote: 30 Mar 2009, 02:09
chalanata wrote:The article by jayamohan seems to say that the entire thing seems to have come from tamizhisai only.
as far as i see it the nayanmar who created 'punn' acknowledged the cm singers as 'thogaiadiyaar' (singing in all languages including sanskrit) and they seemed to have no fight that time. each had a clear understanding of each's role play...
That the nAyanmAr "created" paNNs is a tall claim. They just called them paNNs and probably used them. That does neither indicate the paNNs were created by them nor even that they were tamizh by origin.
By that same token, claiming T created HK or KHP is a tall claim; not impossible. He might have just taken them in existing form and given them a body of work.
vasanthakokilam wrote: 30 Mar 2009, 09:30 As Sundar Rajan wrote, the Jayamohan link is quite good but not quite on the topic of this thread. That topic is about the origin of CM itself which is much more broad obviously.

BTW, Your premise itself is too strict. I do not think any regional music system need to satisfy the high bar of 'a complete classical music genere' for it to contribute to the classical music of the day.
I definitely need help on this from those who have studied the classical sanskrit works, but there are numerous references to ragas from various 'countries' and desiya ragas etc.

So ideas like "Tamils used the same classical music as the rest of ancient India but used tamil names to refer to those concepts.", though nice and compact, is too unrealistic an assumption to base any hypothesis let alone conclusions. ( replace Tamils by any other region ). Why should music be any different when rest of the cultural aspects had been so vastly different across the length and breadth of India 2000 years back?
arunk wrote: 31 Mar 2009, 20:51 In any case, before looking for influences of pann music in the trinity's music I would like to see whether pann music was an influence to the grama-murchana music. Just the silappatikaram details are not sufficient to me because both bharata and dattila are around the same period. So based on that, it is hard to know if
(a) one simply "copied" and not acknowledged the other i.e. plagiarism :) - i.e. this implies one was clearly the source. This is most attractive to people too passionate about their language and people. People do say this has happened w.r.t hinduism itself (i.e. absorbed local gods into the pantheon, weave mythology around it, and soon mythology eclipses everything else).
(b) that both had a common ancestor earlier
(c) Both are the same but expressed in regional terms. This would be similar to how languages evolve. Now both have very similar principles (e.g. 22 basic units) but there are differences there too (the basic scale of tamizh isai is neither the basic tone-set of Sadja grame nor that of the madhyama grama).
(d) both were different, but merged.

Also, like I mentioned earlier in some other thread, a *lot* of the details of music from silappatikaram also comes from a commentary which I think is dated much much later. I lean towards (b) or (c) or (d) - perhaps more towards (c) or (d), until more evidence shows up.
As some one else wrote in another thread, violently in agreement with the sentiment above; vehemently nodding my head. I am of the opinion that is all misram today - an amalgamation & synthesis of ideas from various people/genres/groups that has evolved into CM; and for a good measure musicologists trying to fit a square peg in a round hole rather than leaving any differences as is as unexplainable.

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