David Shulman on Carnatic Music

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 07 May 2018, 18:40

I do not know whether this was discussed already. I found it absorbing and could not resist the temptation to share. Bonus is one or two music clips.
https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2017/07 ... d-shulman/

Anusha · Post by **Anusha** » 08 May 2018, 10:56

Thanks, for sharing this. Interesting perspectives, this is an engaging read.
His passion for languages and re-search is amazing!

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 08 May 2018, 14:59

The way in which we think of CM as mainly that of the Trinity ( it appears that only these krithis were created not just as poems or hymns but as musical offerings), makes the present day Chennai a very unnatural center for CM. The other southern states and even Maharashtra should be the better choice.
If we consider Purandharadasa krithis ( mainly Kannada) , Karnataka ,...... For Annamacharya krithis, Thiruppathy and hence Rayalaseema and Vishalandhra, (Telugu krithis,) For Badrachalam Ramadasr krithis, ..Telengana,.... Shyama Sastry's telugu krithis will be better appreciated by native Telugu speakers and finally Dikshithar krithis in Sanskrit are most likely to be understood and appreciated by Keralites( it is significant that Sri.Narayana Guru, incorporated Sanskrit learning as an essential part of his great reform movement in the first few decades of last century. )
The major chunks of caste wise demographic groups in Tamilnad, are predominantly, of peasant communities who are primarily if not exclusively KaLi worshippers and some village-god worshippers. They do not know any other language except their mother tongue Tamizh and for job opportunities..English . Only a few communities along the western ghats sections in tamil country know Telugu/Kannada . and absolutely no sanskrit.
What is the way out? If we want to preserve the 'musical' ( not the 'lytrics part') of the trinity, we must entirely switch over to Instrumental rendering or like Papanasam Siavn tried, create easy to understand Tamizh lyrical compositions patterned exactly on the trinity kritis.
suja music blog on Bangalore music season follows

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 08 May 2018, 15:14

https://sujamusic.wordpress.com/2018/05/06/carnatic-music-season-in-bangalore/
========================================================================
Here are some passages which I liked .
"This year was a resounding success, keeping up with the trend that we have been seeing over the last 5 years. Crowds are getting bigger, younger people are coming to concerts, and, heartwarmingly, people are willing to buy tickets to kutcheris. It has been truly a lovely festival of music over the last month and a half.....There are half a dozen sabhas which conduct concerts daily for a month or so. The grand old daddy of them all is the Ramaseva Mandali at Fort High School. This is the 80th year the Mandali concerts are being held – from humble beginnings on the footpath of a side street to a massive pandal now at the Fort High School Grounds in Chamarajpet. Virtually every musician of note in both Carnatic and Hindustani music has performed here over the years and it is now the largest classical music event in India....

Traffic police had to be deployed for the most popular kutcheris. Wow! It is heartening to see the growing interest in classical music here. Not even in Chennai do we see such crowds...
The music was mostly wonderful. Kumaresh kicked off the season in more than one Sabha, with his wife Jayanthi in one and with his brother Ganesh in another. There were many violin concerts – Ganesh/Kumaresh, L Subramaniam, Kanyakumari & Embar Kannan, Nagaraj & Manjunath, Krishnan & Vijayalakshmi reflecting the fact that talent in violin is probably at its peak now...
Regulars included Yesudas, Trichur Brothers, Kadri Gopalnath, Ranjani & Gayathri, Priya Sisters, U Rajesh, Shashank, Malladi Brothers, TM Krishna, Soumya, et all. Hindustani music stalwarts Ronu Majumdar, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt and Pravin Godkhindi were also here. This is largely a Carnatic music festival, but there is also a smattering of Hindustani music.
Thankfully the very obscure ragas were hardly to be heard, reversing a trend from the last few years where we have heard ragas with unpronounceable names.
The Ragam Thanam Pallavi continued to rule, Freed from the shackles of a time bound 2.5 hour concert in Chennai, artistes let loose with elaborate RTPs, often starting at 9.00 PM !
The other was a majestic concert by Ranjani & Gayathri at Fort High School. The 3000 capacity pandal was full and people were standing in the aisles – such is their popularity here. And they delivered an absolutely divine RTP in Nalinakanthi. A complicated Pallavi and a thala structure, beautifully supported by the accompanying artistes was easily a classic for the ages. There were 1000 people at Mangalam time at 10.00 PM; I have never seen anything like this in any kutcheri ever.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 May 2018, 19:47

Pls. don't hijack this thread with irrelevant material.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 09 May 2018, 15:31

@5-> pl dont pontificate. Every line in my post is a well-pondered ( not pandered) reaction to the original interview by the Israeli linguist. I read the rather lengthy interview closely . The usual hype of westerners . i just cannot believe that any western audience can be moved emotionally by any music to which they have no exposure. It is outdated too.
The next link to the blog item , in contrast, is the latest , in a neighboring state.
And I am wondering at the deafening silence of the leading forumites stationed at that city ( Bangalore) about such a great cultural event which has been going on for six weeks!
Or perhaps, I missed a review?
We will not bring back nautch music and 'cranks' ( your language) bakthi music. and keep on singing krithis which only not even one pecent of the population cares for, in a language not known to them. No apologies to the ideas expressed... Demise is nearing.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 May 2018, 16:40

From the reading of the interview, I came to the conclusion that David Schulman, though not belonging to this culture, has a much more sober understanding of this culture and his views are very moderate and empathetic - as compared to the views of the interviewer - an Indian - who seems not to have even that much of rooting in our culture as the foreigner had. His provocative questions like 'sexism' and 'casteism' in tyAgarAja's Kritis, without understanding the context - Atma gharhaNa - Self deprecation which is the theme of the kRtis, is an example. I hang my head in shame that we need endorsement of our cultural values from a foreigner and the sad part is, the foreigner betters.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 May 2018, 17:15

vgovindan wrote: ↑09 May 2018, 16:40 I hang my head in shame that we need endorsement of our cultural values from a foreigner and the sad part is, the foreigner betters.

We have all become World citizens now and this parochial outlook may be anachronistic. Let us listen to the truth from wherever it comes.

@RSR:

1. Please do not copy long passages from other blogs on the internet to this forum. Just providing a link should be fine.

2. Create another thread if you have to but please do not contaminate existing threads on other topics with your now stereotypical conclusions and admonitions.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 May 2018, 17:32

Suresh,
I have appreciated the foreigner for his views, notwithstanding the leading questions by the interviewer about his own culture - which he should know better. If in spite of this, it is parochialism, well, I surely deserve that epithet.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 May 2018, 18:43

The interview is a gem. Shulman knows what he is talking about. He and his wife understand music much better than many who carry deep prejudices. Suresh is right that we should keep to the topic and music in the main. He has understood the setting of CM very dispassionately. One should read more about him and some of his books like Tamil A Biography. His deep research and insight is amazing. We can find few books of that caliber by Indian authors. If that is foreign moham, I love that.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 09 May 2018, 18:52

What a wasted interview, he could have asked so many other questions digging deeper into,

They have a raga-like system, what they call the dastgah.

They often sing delightful verses from Hafez, Saadi, Rumi…

But no, in that respect I agree with what Govindar sir says.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 09 May 2018, 21:59

RSR wrote: ↑09 May 2018, 15:31 a well-pondered ( not pandered) reaction

i just cannot believe that any western audience can be moved emotionally by any music to which they have no exposure.

Demise is nearing.

It is all in the eyes of the beholder - pondered well or pandered

Why "western" audience. That applies to anyone with no exposure?

Or if you are specific about Western, I would like to do this thought experiment where a Indian origin, and for a good measure say of a CM vocalist and nAdaswaram player parentage, child was spirited away at birth to north Sweden or north Norway, nearer arctic circle, was brought up there with no contact whatsoever to India or its culture till the age of 20 and is blithely unaware of anything other than ABBA (or whatever is latest fad in western music circle), feasts on salmon and cod, downs vodka by liter. And then one fine day he is dropped in MA 1:45 pm slot to listen to a 18 something damsel singing theruvil vArAno. So he will just get it with exposure, right?

So what? Say CM is no more in 2050 - it is dead and done for. Whats the big deal?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 May 2018, 23:02

I hang my head in shame that we need endorsement of our cultural values from a foreigner and the sad part is, the foreigner betters.

No need to hang your head in shame. The interviewer has taken special effort to communicate with David Shulman, met him and engaged well with him. We can be proud of him.

vgovindan wrote: ↑09 May 2018, 17:32 I have appreciated the foreigner for his views, notwithstanding the leading questions by the interviewer about his own culture - which he should know better.

It is just not valid or fair to expect that "he should know better". Youngsters are outward looking and so he may not have studied his own culture to the needed depth.

If in spite of this, it is parochialism, well, I surely deserve that epithet.

You have repeated called him a "foreigner". As someone with first hand experience, let me inform you that it is a parochial epithet.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 10 May 2018, 07:25

kvchellappa - thanks for the link to an interesting article.

I think I am as much of a foreigner as Shulman, so I found it quite relevant to read. Shulman seems to have spent a fair amount of time absorbing the art and a lot of things around it, including the languages and culture that are intertwined with it. Certainly he has more exposure than me. For example, I have been curious about the Andhra style of singing, in particular the Vijayanagaram College of Music and all that, and found some reference to it.

RSR's initial response was on a different track altogether - i.e. not anything to do with the interview. Later it was mentioned that RSR thought that the views were hyped and outdated. Well, ok, that's one point of view.

I could not see anything to hang one's head in shame about anything. Since I do not know the last word on any matter, I thought it was a reasonably open conversation.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 May 2018, 08:19

Narayan,
What a breath of fresh air to hear from you (we don't, that often)! Thanks for posting.
Sometimes, we arrive at a point when it's all a uruTTuk kAi viLaiyATTu. Is it still being played? You arrange carom coins on the board on your side in a row, ready for them to roll--so does the other player, who sits opposite to you. You both try to pocket as many coins as you can by tilting the board. We see that trending here at times.
Rasikas.org once in a while resembles the tower of Babel too. So many bright minds, so much knowledge to go around, some going waste. Lingering too much over other matters doesn't help either

An open mind helps, and can take care of most of the ills!
Meanwhile, a lot of wonderful things are brought here constantly. No denying that. It's business as usual, so much to learn and enjoy...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 10:55

But your minds should not be swayed by conventional views that you hear in the public space. It’s very important to go back to the first sources and read them in their original language, if you possibly can. It’s a real challenge, and also a gift to be able to take that up as part of your own life.

I have not read the Ramayana, neither Mahabharata. I watched the serials. Even I don't remember anything from them. The only ones I have memory of is what I heard from an authentic traditional scholar, may be he read the original, but he was given expositions by a Guru alongside.

The former above may be a scholarship requirement. But what is the use of it.

The immediate predecessors , the contemporary traditional scholars and their sense is important. And there is no use to ponder how Ramayana was understood lets say 100 years back. The University Industry - shall we call it commercial circus like how our competitions were referred to - needs its own way of producing knowledge - but that is all for philately.

It is used by colonial aggressors to understand ( what they need to understand) and break apart a culture/nation. It could be used by multinationals to employ techniques in Human resourcing and control. Or to understand ( in their lens of controlling) to setup operations, like how pfizer distributes medicine to tribals in South America before setting up a factory.

In today’s cultural climate in India, controversies like the one over A.K. Ramanujan’s “Three Hundred Ramayanas” essay in Delhi University show that the right-wing, conservative factions of Indian society really are not comfortable with this cultural diversity.

We can have 300 Ramayanas each held as sacred by the specific communities that disseminate them. And it is not about the Ramayana stupid. The communities how they view it , also in that process express a sense of values that are in co-existence (not necessarily competitive) with others. Their individual dharmas are put to test as well. How sustainable are their values which are encoded into their narratives? - is a debate they are engaged in.

Now Rothschild's children ( yeah the financial giants) are having sustainability conferences. All this after neo-liberalism and economic laissez faire.

But when a nitwit professor collects all of them and does a subversive comparative study, the Hindutva bigots have every right to disrupt him. His motives are explicitly clear.

If we were not comfortable with cultural diversity , there would not have been 300 Ramayanas in the first place. But we have to wary of the University system which is based on Anthropological methods and lens, trying to dissect , playing sepoy to the west and cause trouble.

The interviewer is much like the one here : https://thewire.in/culture/t-m-krishna- ... -art-music

As I had noted (Comments no longer in the site) : Nitwitism is not the sole preserve of 20 somethings and their ivy league professors.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 May 2018, 11:04

shankarank
Is this post related to the interview? It maybe, I am at a loss to understand. Kindly do not take me amiss. I simply admire your range and depth of knowledge in general and music in particular (whether GNB landed properly, etc.). I wish I could catch up with it.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:05

These padams are erotic padams, but either she, or her father, or her teacher—somebody—will get up and say, “Well, these look as if they were about eroticism and sexuality and stuff like that, but really it’s just a way of talking about God.” They’ll always go into this apologetic, which is a savage attack on the sensibility that produced these works.

Because the dads have been put in a hapless position of defending against mischief mongers. The Dravidian movement started by Caldwell and the Left have subverted the discourse. You the professor, are still exploiting the residual slave mentality of Indians. And we have to use the word: God!

First take off your abrahamic lens, and set aside your moral lessons, will you?

Leave it to us , on how we negotiate to live under the barbaric constitution , drawn from the French republic. We don't need your analysis.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:11

Even in Sanskrit, it’s a misconception, I think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and inequality. There’s an aspect of that,

So English is not - or pulavar tamizh was not? Why does your friend claim , that he is articulate , speaking in English and hence privileged then? Is he a Sanskrit or Vedic scholar or something?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:22

I came from a very conservative background, and I had no idea Telugu people could even come up with these songs!

No you did not MR interviewer, you came up in a background geared to educate yourself and compete in the new world order. Otherwise if you had been in villages, as a conservative back-grounder you would mind your business and the erotics will go about theirs - get it? Stupid!!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:31

Krishna brings up the example of a composition for which the singer Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar would perform neraval [improvisation] on part of a line whose full meaning was something like “Rama is the destroyer of lust, anger, etc.” But, the way in which he performed neraval led to him repeating the first half of the line, which by itself meant something like “Rama is a slave of lust”. So, that became unacceptable in the concert sphere, and Iyengar was forced to perform neraval on the entire line, which had more syllables and was thus more complicated

From

kAma mOha dAsulai SrI rAmuni
kaTTu teliya lEni vAr(i)lalO(nEmi)

kAma mOha dAsulai teliya lEni

That should do it. Those who don't know! He didn't have to join the next whole line. And this will not add too many syllables. It only needs a bit of analysis. As to why the line is changed from how it is composed, did tyAgarAja intend for neraval to be done ?

. But if you do it, then you are moving his syllables anyways - so moving words is not a big deal !!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:38

If you’re asking “Is Carnatic music filled with content that you could call religious content?” It is; of course it is. An overwhelming number of the compositions are temple-based, or based on the gods in the temples. If it’s Tyagaraja, it’s Rama. So, that’s a kind of given.

யோவ்! கோவிலே எங்க மந்திரம் சொல்லித்தான் உருவாக்கப்படுது. எங்க கோவிலுக்கும் உங்க ம்யூசியத்துக்கும் வித்யாசம் தெரியாம பேசினுருக்க !

Hey! The temples are installed with chants. The stapatis - their Sastras are disseminated in the SlOka form as well. First learn the difference between a temple and a museum , before talking!

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 10 May 2018, 11:49

shankarank wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 11:38
If you’re asking “Is Carnatic music filled with content that you could call religious content?” It is; of course it is. An overwhelming number of the compositions are temple-based, or based on the gods in the temples. If it’s Tyagaraja, it’s Rama. So, that’s a kind of given.
யோவ்! கோவிலே எங்க மந்திரம் சொல்லித்தான் உருவாக்கப்படுது. எங்க கோவிலுக்கும் உங்க ம்யூசியத்துக்கும் வித்யாசம் தெரியாம பேசினுருக்க !

Hey! The temples are installed with chants. The stapatis - their Sastras are disseminated in the SlOka form as well. First learn the difference between a temple and a museum , before talking!

What's the relevance of your statement to the quoted text?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:52

The relevance is the gods themselves get their sanctity from my singing - and it is not correct that my song is based on the gods! get it?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 May 2018, 11:53

kvchellappa wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 11:04 shankarank
Is this post related to the interview? It maybe, I am at a loss to understand. Kindly do not take me amiss. I simply admire your range and depth of knowledge in general and music in particular (whether GNB landed properly, etc.). I wish I could catch up with it.

If this guy studies us, why cannot we study him?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 10 May 2018, 15:59

shankarank wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 11:31
Krishna brings up the example of a composition for which the singer Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar would perform neraval [improvisation] on part of a line whose full meaning was something like “Rama is the destroyer of lust, anger, etc.” But, the way in which he performed neraval led to him repeating the first half of the line, which by itself meant something like “Rama is a slave of lust”. So, that became unacceptable in the concert sphere, and Iyengar was forced to perform neraval on the entire line, which had more syllables and was thus more complicated
From
kAma mOha dAsulai SrI rAmuni
kaTTu teliya lEni vAr(i)lalO(nEmi)

kAma mOha dAsulai teliya lEni

That should do it. Those who don't know! He didn't have to join the next whole line. And this will not add too many syllables. It only needs a bit of analysis. As to why the line is changed from how it is composed, did tyAgarAja intend for neraval to be done ? . But if you do it, then you are moving his syllables anyways - so moving words is not a big deal !!

Shankarank,
(My apologies if this does not belong to this thread). A beautiful proposition as to how the place for neraval (and sangatis too) should be chosen. Since I am not qualified in Music, I was stymied in making a suitable suggestion. If only artists could spare some time and go back to the basics of their paddhati and make suitable changes - which does not affect the meaning - and at the same time enhances the presentation! I have also heard Madurai Somu adding words like 'rAmA' (addressing form) at some places which makes the rendering more attractive. What difference will it make if the word is not present in the kRti, if the context and meaning is kept intact?

I would make one little modification - kAma mOha dAsulai kaTTu teliya lEni (to complete the meaning). In fact TS Balakrishna Sastrigal would stop at 'kaTTu' and explain the word in such a way that the import of the whole kRti sinks in. Though we may not expect the artist to explain, then I ask myself, 'why not'? I can anticipate the response - go to pravachana. hmmmm

Thanks.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 10 May 2018, 22:25

sureshvv wrote: ↑09 May 2018, 17:15 @RSR:
1. Please do not copy long passages from other blogs on the internet to this forum. Just providing a link should be fine.
2. Create another thread if you have to but please do not contaminate existing threads on other topics with your now stereotypical conclusions and admonitions.

------------------
1) Specifically, I am experimenting on giving links to valuable blog posts . Actually, I am against giving links as the main post as the OP has done. in the current thread. .. When I give a link to an opinion piece , I should sort of give a brief note on the links in my own words ( as to what is acceptable and what is not). I erred there ( for want of time...will adopt that practice hereafter).
I think, I should copy the entire blog to my own page, highlight the points and give link to my page only.
That is what I generally do, (ex) sites.google.com/site .......homage2mssubbulakshmi, dkpattammalsongs, ncvasanthakokilam, hindusthaniragams ,carnaticgems and many more literary and political sites which I maintain. and they are better noticed! Rest assured!
The rather long but to the point quotes about the recent Bangalore Music festival should have been an eye-opener to people like you. Did it not shock you out of your slumber ? Then my purpose is served. When was the last time that your Mecca of Carnatic music had an audience of 3000 plus for a CM concert in a 'pandal'
Why such CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE about the six week long festival there in Bangalore ?

2) Unlike your half-baked hippie style Internationalism, I happen to be deeply rooted to my native culture without compromising on the world outlook. I need no lessons from you either on culture or history or even music. if you note the time of initiating the thread on 'non-film, secular CM songs, you will notice that it was meant as my reaction to the OP. ( this thread). indirectly as a possible solution..
I have a comprehensive theory and program to push through, clearly formulated in so many posts again and again.( what you call stereotyped admonitions).
see @14 in viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31197#p335009
Do you or your cohorts have any solution? Hardly. Music is not business to me. Followed?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 May 2018, 22:41

shankarank wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 10:55 I have not read the Ramayana, neither Mahabharata. I watched the serials. Even I don't remember anything from them. The only ones I have memory of is what I heard from an authentic traditional scholar, may be he read the original, but he was given expositions by a Guru alongside.

Amar Chithra Katha? C.Rajagopalachari's version? Problem could not have been non-availability.
May be if you had, it may have mitigated the level of your periodic righteous indigation.

It is used by colonial aggressors to understand ( what they need to understand) and break apart a culture/nation.

No taking responsibility for our part in this "breaking apart"? We just helplessly watched?

It could be used by multinationals to employ techniques in Human resourcing and control.

I believe our upper castes had techniques much more effective and sophisticated.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 10 May 2018, 23:00

narayan wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 07:25 RSR's initial response was on a different track altogether - i.e. not anything to do with the interview. Later it was mentioned that RSR thought that the views were hyped and outdated. Well, ok, that's one point of view.
(...)

Respected Prof.Sir, Did it not strike you as odd that my post at 3 circumvented many issues in the OP?
post3 is actually my reaction to the OP. I avoided even mentioning that because 1) I detest the premises of the interviewing blogger. ( Sri.V.Govindan has brought it out clearly) 2) Unlike Sri.Govindan, I have no admiration for the linguist ( he may be a great linguist and all that but it hardly makes a difference). His answers mostly are just platitudes. Just because it comes from a westerner, it does not bring any new insight. 3) More than all these, I am just irritated beyond words on posts and single line links to the eccentric showman and his obnoxious gimmicry and self-promtion. .. and the linguist's hype on him. as if this specimen is the sole 'progressive' rep of CM!.. what made the OP to repost the stuff digging from the past? I detest the thread opening itself. It would have been better to have a separate thread on the linguist ( on his linguistic research only).
What is the linguist trying to say? Bring back the nautch music? The British Govt did a great favour to CM by banning such things.
Does it really need a westerner to figure out that 95 % of CM is Bakthi-oriented?
Will CM die, if we retain the 'musical ' composition and leave out the lyrics? No.
That is the point that I have mentioned in seemingly irrelevant post!

Now read post 3 again, and see if the language issue and caste-issue does not relate to the interview. and my execrpts from another blog should clinch the issue.
see 14 at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31197#p335009
for further elaboration.
Thanks and Regards.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 11 May 2018, 09:53

sureshvv wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 22:41 No taking responsibility for our part in this "breaking apart"? We just helplessly watched?

First we need to understand what is still happening, Many Independence leaders understood, but the country was too big and technology too primitive for it's size and under the control of colonial power for them to have made a bigger impact.

sureshvv wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 22:41 I believe our upper castes had techniques much more effective and sophisticated.

You keep saying upper castes as though they are somebody else. They were/are the people devoted to economy of the nation even as selfish people. They will spend the money in your country. Somebody needs to exercise control, they better be your own! If you have problems with that sort it out.

And also whoever raises the caste issue, enlightened or those claiming to be the casteless, better become another caste in the caste framework. They will be better off!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 11 May 2018, 10:11

vgovindan wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 15:59 I would make one little modification - kAma mOha dAsulai kaTTu teliya lEni (to complete the meaning). In fact TS Balakrishna Sastrigal would stop at 'kaTTu' and explain the word in such a way that the import of the whole kRti sinks in. Though we may not expect the artist to explain, then I ask myself, 'why not'? I can anticipate the response - go to pravachana. hmmmm

Well lets give the musicians their due : spacing to create music. The first priority is to avoid a catastrophic meaning - not in a specific concert experience actually - but as the same line lingers on and gets tongues wagging about the insensitivity of all musicians as a whole. So the question of what and where can be left out. It is the 'who' that is a problem here.

Second teliyalEni in my opinion may be complete , in the sense of : there is only one thing to be known. So the"what" can be left out in a neraval after all, when we are able to get out of a predicament as this, in return. teliyalEni , keeps the Avartas to reTTapaDai ( even) , though TMK would not care much about such concepts of purity! kATTu can added by reducing the kARvai after landing in 'dAsulai' occasionally in the lower kAla neraval in the expressive rounds. The man is complaining about his art and these extra syllables - lets give him his due!

But once done with expression you should allow music to proceed.

Secondly when words are split into letters in the higher kAla - the bemoan is : the music takes precedence and lyrics don't matter. That is not true. The language gave you a balanced syllable formation in the form of hard and soft consonants and long and short vowels ( there is more that I will write in one another kriti in the GNB vAggEyakara thread). The letters and their beauty are being savored using music! That should be the narrative!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 May 2018, 12:06

shankarank wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 09:53 You keep saying upper castes as though they are somebody else.

Along what lines are you drawing the "self vs. somebody else" distinction? Seems like nationalistic lines.
Meaningless, because India was not a single political entity.

They were/are the people devoted to economy of the nation even as selfish people.

There is no such thing as "economy of the nation". There are always winners and losers. For someone so astute in other topics, you are sounding gullible and naive.

They will spend the money in your country.

Nope. The mainly hoarded it.

Somebody needs to exercise control, they better be your own! If you have problems with that sort it out.

Who do you mean by "your own"? At various times, a sizable portion of the elite felt that the British were the lesser evil.

And also whoever raises the caste issue, enlightened or those claiming to be the casteless, better become another caste in the caste framework. They will be better off!

The problem lies in that no one gets to pick their caste.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 May 2018, 17:57

Sureshvv said: the problem lies in that no one gets to pick their caste.
Exactly...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 11 May 2018, 18:03

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06 Along what lines are you drawing the "self vs. somebody else" distinction? Seems like nationalistic lines.
Meaningless, because India was not a single political entity.

It seems marxists are saying India's history is in the spice/lentil rack. i.e. they at least accept that it was one economic entity. Even today we are divided politically and the constitution works only nominally. Nationalists are only adding it was one culturally. You should also say Caste was not there, it was created by Lord Risely in his census and hierarchy definitions! Before then it was jatis based on their svadharma.

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06 There is no such thing as "economy of the nation". There are always winners and losers. For someone so astute in other topics, you are sounding gullible and naive.

There is no such thing as economy of the nation to the unaffiliated! It seems the buzz is : to get the best life style and outcomes you live in unaffiliated places. Like Singapore , Hong Kong, Dubai, Brunei, Cayman etc. No nationalism or sub-altern protests. Life goes on like a machine. Even the communist and capitalist {:cough:] meet there. Tax cheats of nationalities take cover (citizenship) there. Pelf from government contracts of nations is hoarded there.

The metros are basically like that but in India the sub-altern [:cough:] entered the civic bodies and allowed even judges and bureaucrats to build on lakes. They are all winners aren't they. They all lose one day. Unlike those real unaffiliated places, they could not regulate the under class also to come and build on river banks. The winner/ loser you talk about is how Marxism begins it's discourse. It starts with hatred at the core!

Me sounding gullible and naive. You are fast joining the ranks of the 20 something nitwits adorning the college campuses!

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06
shankarank wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 09:53 They will spend the money in your country.
Nope. The mainly hoarded it.

Heard of savings rate? That releases spending in critical life events and allows for a sustained demand to take place. It has been pointed out, the banks in America lend because the housewives save in Asia and their sovereign funds trust the Dollar and keep the treasury bills of the U.S.

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06
shankarank wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 09:53 Somebody needs to exercise control, they better be your own! If you have problems with that sort it out.
Who do you mean by "your own"? At various times, a sizable portion of the elite felt that the British were the lesser evil.

You cannot expect entire population to be self aware. A good significant minority resisted the British. And don't mix economics and politics. If you do, then you have to consider that the so called elite also continued spend locally - so even poor could get something, whereas the British successfully destroyed the local economy. People will allow powers to fester sometimes, if it provides stability against other aggressors.

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06
shankarank wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 09:53 And also whoever raises the caste issue, enlightened or those claiming to be the casteless, better become another caste in the caste framework. They will be better off!
The problem lies in that no one gets to pick their caste.

Most castes do well. See : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB9L9nj6vyo . They don't even take loans from banks - as pointed out in Tiruppur they cannot fulfill export orders with banks lending them - with all the delays and paper work.

The lowest ones were created to solve a different problem : That after some point the Women [:cough:] could not venture outside! You should be able to guess {:cough:] when that would have happened. Avadum peNNAle..

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 11 May 2018, 18:10

sureshvv wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:06The problem lies in that no one gets to pick their caste.

Yup, yup, yup. That is indeed the problem of all problems.

The concept of social mobility, even in a so-called "egalitarian" society like USA circa 2018, is tenuous. Just ask ordinary black folks, not Google Pichai.

What can be said when it is verboten as a matter of principle... Karna shall forever be derided (not that anyone anywhere anytime should be or have been derided for anything, least of all for who he/she was born as), except when crocodile tears are shed when he's killed in battle, as "sUtputra", even though he could "feel it in his bones" all his life that he was kshatriya, and was even recognized as such by Duryodhana.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 11 May 2018, 18:32

..,..India was not a political entity.....
Indeed, that's why Hanuman could go to Ravana's assembly and preach rAja dharma to Ravana; so did vibhIshaNa to Ravana as to how to treat an emissary. (I can hear the heckles about a monkey). That there was cultural integration (transcending political diversity), in what is now called India and Pakistan and beyond, was the irrefutable fact. That people from far South would go to Kashi by foot and Adi Sankara roamed all the four corners of the land and spread his teachings and established Peethas North, West, East and South. This cultural integration is looked at by Europeans with envy and that's why they set out to destroy it by (re)defining Indian culture - which has been swallowed by the Macaulayan Brahmins hook, line and sinker. And they are the ones who wrote Indian Constitution stratifying caste and religious barriers which, given the Mahatma Gandhi factor, would have become dissolved in a few years. And it is the misfortune that a madcap undertook upon himself to destroy that one ray of hope and thus paving way for a permanently stratified society which gets reflected here as you and me and never as 'us'. A profound misfortune, indeed!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 May 2018, 18:38

What is described is a cultural entity or political entity? Rama was the king of Ayodhya, not of entire India. Even Krishna was a regional chieftain. There were umpteen rulers at one and the same time. All that conceding that it is indeed history. Was there an India as a political entity the way it is today? Guptas and Mauryas also did not rule the entire India. Even under the British there were princely states separately. Where was India as a political entity? Or, is the expression 'political entity' wrongly used by the one bringing it in?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 May 2018, 18:40

Are we still on Shulman?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 11 May 2018, 18:51

kvc,
If you are referring to my reference to Hanuman, let me clarify. How can rAja dharma be same for all diverse political entities unless there is a dhArmic integration beyond poltics? That's what I have referred as 'cultural integration'. And that dhArmic integration is in shambles today.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 May 2018, 19:22

I was only trying to understand 'political entity'. I have not really been following the thread as much of it is beyond me.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 May 2018, 20:50

How are all these exchanges relevant to the OP? .. Who is 'CONTAMINATING' a thread with irrelevant obserevations? May be a good idea to move the thread to the 'lounge' ( 'verandah').
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Written history begins with MEGASTHANES , Greek ambassador to Chandragupta Maurya. ( around 350 BC). contemporaneous with world-famous book on state craft and political economy...Chanakya's Artha Sasthra.
Ever heard of the extent of Asokan Empire?

Right from Gandhaaram ( Afganisthan) to Kanchiporam . Only the far-far south was spared.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 11 May 2018, 21:10

Many of the observations of shankarank and RSR are way beyond me, for different reasons, so I will accept their statements for now, till I am able to absorb them. Like many others here, I assume, I have benefitted immensely from the translations of Tyagaraja songs that vgovindan has recorded for us. I accept his comments also in good faith. Looks like all these people did not find anything worthwhile in the Shulman article. Well, a less well-read person like me got something out of the interview and the experiences related by Shulman, and perhaps because of the article and the 'discussion' following it, will look into the points raised by others, so it can't be a totally worthless exercise, can it?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 12 May 2018, 10:35

Quoting again from the article:

And the same applies to Carnatic music; there is a text, after all. One of the things that distinguishes Carnatic music from Hindustani music is the dominance, or primacy, of the text. After all, Carnatic music is a music of compositions, unlike much of Hindustani music, in which there are compositions but the dominant thing is the exposition and improvisation of the raga.

This to me is silly the way differences are brought out. The word "Text" itself is a colonial view point or a colonial term. We have to understand that first. The differences between Carnatic and Hindustani can be expressed in musical terms - even when "music" is considered - lets say according to the Western view - made of only notes. Carnatic music and Hindustani music are both rAga based systems. rAga itself cannot be translated to anything in the West. Calling it permutation / combination of notes is highly incomplete. The Western view fails at the door step.

It only gets worse, in terms of differences in perspective I mean, after that.

Carnatic music has more emphasis for syllables and time intervals and their subtleties. Hindustani music is not devoid of that, but there are differences between the two that I can feel. I don't have enough language to describe the difference. As I don't have that much insight into what they sing in HM. I can see some similarities with their rhythm and Bhajan rhythms. In their expositions , there is odd permutation combinations , 3s , 5s and tumbling down to "sam" as they seem to call it. Beyond that I have to leave it at that. Somebody can show otherwise and claim there is no difference. I am interested and open.

Now the above will be the "musical" differences between the two. To skip this and make a statement that Carnatic music has primacy to "Text" is to ignore the musical aspect of sAhitya - which has several layers from vaRNa to mAtras to chandas , tALa kriyas, tALa angas, and then to svara. The former comes from deep colonial obsession to figure out the "other". Compiling a dictionary and delving into translations of the text etc.

And this is not just David Shulman - TMK is doing the work of these outsiders. To parse the text for socio-political issues, Casteism, Sexism, bias etc.

The entire grammar and linguistics and philology is a colonial enterprise. If we don't see it as "other", then we are blind to their intent of "othering". Without which we cannot really understand what they are trying to say.

A child does not learn grammar before learning Mother tongue and in Indian tradition, language has other metaphysical qualities both in how it is handed over from aksharAbhyAsam onward to the oral and recitation tradition. That perspective is the internal / insider perspective. A child recites lot of things and it is beautiful to hear. Can we ever claim the child understood the meaning and the import of it - the way we adults would view it? To say that that is an incomplete musical experience is being a traitor to the Indian tradition. And after all the child may or may not know what just the "rama" or "sarasvati " means yet.

So the professor talking about compositions and meaning and themes is really missing a lot of things before that.

And as regards the way neravals are blindly done - here tyAgarAja svAmi and other composers are Mozartified. I.e , they are composers. Their other aspects like philosophy, espousal of musical values, their deep awareness of traditions and cultures all be damned! So a line taken up for neraval cannot be re-arranged. We have to take their permission, says a forumite Bhaktim dEhi.

We are interested only in the Mozart part - that too in a half baked sense. Do we really know how Mozart is received , imbibed , cherished and improvised in the West? Not that I know, but I feel there is definitely some unquestioned assumptions that Indians have made.

And we go all out to view them as creative people - as the current educational narrative places high premium on creativity for social and academic recognition. The rookie M.A Secretary calls tyAgaraja svAmi as somebody like Srinvasa Ramanujam, the mathematician, not withstanding the own testimony of Sri Ramanujam himself on how he was inspired.

There are all colonial view points from the West! I am not judging that to be wrong. I am only pointing out that that is different.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 May 2018, 12:33

He misses nothing, you read too much into it, and grab the chance to say what you will. He makes the point in a context where it is apposite. He is certainly not setting down the differences between the two forms of music, of both of which he has fair grasp, nor emphasizing the textual part (nothing colonial about it apart from the whole language), as the clincher.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 12 May 2018, 21:02

I think you have not read it carefully.

the dominance, or primacy, of the text

is quite emphatic.

From there on :

So, these Carnatic compositions—there are some on what you could call secular topics, no doubt—but I think with Dikshitar, or Shyama Shastri, or Tyagaraja, they are usually somehow connected to that religious world.

The progression to these characterizations is quite drastic and swift! With no attention paid to the music in the text. And our musicologists in the universities of post Macaulay-an world, also repeat it. Even though, for reasons of paying lip service to tradition, they do study some aspects of the compositions. When our musicologists say "Mridangam is not music" that should say something. Well I suppose that is being read like people read "Text"!

And I don't know why this is being pointed out specifically. This type of a thing can happen only in today's world. The word "religion" itself is inaccurate. I want to know how many music teachers teaching tyAgarAja today ask the kids to stand up , swear and take a pledge of allegiance to Rama! All of these "standing up" etc. are all alien to our traditions, even in it's formative appearance!

I am inspired however to make more such distinctions. There is so much chest beating on kaRnATaka music and Carnatic music. We should make that distinction clear I suppose.

Carnatic music has rAgAs like karaharapriya and compositions of SrI tyAgarAja svami in it. How many people would be motivated to tune a SrI purandaradAsa kirtana or SrI annamacArya kirtana in that rAga? How many kIrtanas have been tuned in bhairavi or bEGaDA?

Carnatic music inherited ragas from kaRnATaka music, the puRva prasiddha rAgas, and added a lot, including the kaNakku vazhakku of pudukOTTai school, mridangam flow style , Palghat MaNi Iyers work etc. This is even without placing the trinity's works, their new rAgAs, SrI muttusvAmi dIkshitar's view of rAgAs in one or the other.

The MDR lecture on SrI muttusvAmi dIkshitar , tries to make a point about the improvements to sAhitya made in comparison to SrI jayadEva and ( by implication) Sriman nArAyaNa tirtha. Definitely that cannot be made on the basis of rAgAs can it? We don't know the rAgAs of the earlier composers.

So authentic traditional scholars recognize the "Text" for more than what it is.

if "Text" were so lofty and pristine for the human intellect, the reading of which enunciates absolute truth, then there should be no rhetoric, no political speech, no management speak ( 20% content , 80% tone). As Chomsky asked, what is the need to indulge in so much campaign. All the candidates need to do is to state their promises and manifesto and leave it at that! Naive isn't he?

And even legalese which is a separate language altogether - convoluted and contorted. Somebody called for a Plain English amendment to the constitution - and that was in America by the way. "Text" as a means of knowledge and truth fails in their own world.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 12 May 2018, 23:34

shankarank wrote: ↑12 May 2018, 10:35This to me is silly the way differences are brought out.

No, not silly at all. A simple observation of how Hindustani music and Carnatic music concerts are reported, discussed and analyzed shows that David Shulman is basically right. Every review of every Carnatic concert that I have read (and occasionally written) is about the composition first, then the rAga. The "song list" is the defining element of a katcheri. In sharp contrast, every review of every Hindustanic concert that I have ever read, is always about the "raags"; the particular bandishes or gats (sometimes even two or three in different taals) are never recalled or only mentioned in passing.

Carnatic music CAN be raga-based if it wished, being so vast and versatile, and I daresay it used to be before the famous Ariyakudi katcheri paddhati. I am personally more attracted to ragas, neraval, swaraprasthara than individual kritis. But for the vast majority of rasikas it's always about song lists, song lists, song lists. Rasikas (and musicians) carefully examine song lists as if to assess the quality of a katcheri. "Wow, very impressive song list' or "that's a light song list" is a comment I have heard often from rasikas and musicians. Such discussions about/after Hindustani concerts is unimaginable.

I was once obliged to write a review of a Sriram Parthasarathy concert, never heard of him before that. It was very impressive, profound even, but an examination of the "song list" would not have indicated that. And there are rasikas to whom the whole concert would have bombed because it was not the A-list of songs. Pshaw. Here's what I wrote:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 373989.ece

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 May 2018, 00:28

For every 10 musicians that build on song lists, there are at least 2 ( that is > 0) that build on rAgA expositions and in many cases the latter are the ones that are strong on laya as well - where the compositions are also embellished in a different dimension.

The system has a way to develop the tastes of rasikas from ground up. But those that have developed their tastes should have some compassion on those that are developing.

Whither inclusiveness? That too not on the same concert venue - could be somewhere else - where you have the choice to keep away.

Call out artistes - like I did for Smt. Aruna Sairam - who should do better with compositions that they claim to have grown up on.

The art has not deteriorated because artistes up coming and popular, dwell on compositions. That is even in your realm of what you might mean as art!!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 May 2018, 01:41

uday_shankar wrote: ↑12 May 2018, 23:34 Carnatic music CAN be raga-based if it wished, being so vast and versatile, and I daresay it used to be before the famous Ariyakudi katcheri paddhati

And the music of ARI's immediate successors , MMI, SSI, GNB , DKP , MLV and further down KVN, MDR, Ramnad CANNOT be said to be composition based, irrespective of concert list and compositions that are their stamp.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 13 May 2018, 16:08

shankarank wrote: ↑13 May 2018, 01:41And the music of ARI's immediate successors , MMI, SSI, GNB , DKP , MLV and further down KVN, MDR, Ramnad CANNOT be said to be composition based, irrespective of concert list and compositions that are their stamp.

Agree completely. Many of those mentioned were exceptionally original and creative and did not at all follow ARI's "formulaic" manodharma and songlist-cornucopia approach to music.

Ramnad Krishnan, awesome musician, raised the hackles of many a sahityanazi with his bad pronunciation and slurring of words. In today's world, he would have been swallowed whole by the roaming hordes of textual predators waiting to pounce on any little transgression in the world of text. We need a me-too movement to reclaim the music from the text

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 May 2018, 17:32

uday_shankar wrote: ↑13 May 2018, 16:08 We need a me-too movement to reclaim the music from the text

There is plenty of room for all of us. Can't we all just simply get along?