David Shulman on Carnatic Music

[SrinathK]

Actually to a great extent, we Indians too have adopted this mindset - when we say bhakti bhava now, we only imply reverential devotion. Fundamentally bhakti is about approaching realization through emotion - therefore sakhya, vatsalya, and SringAra have all been used in the past. The abrahamic or puritanical conceptions of God however cannot fathom anything beyond reverence and obedience.

Pure emotion does not fit into any moralistic structure (hence the need to herd our emotions in real life). To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique. Without rasa there is no bhakti.

India is the only place in the world that not only accepted these aspects of our human psyche, but found a way to sublimate them into art and then into an expression of spirituality (every other place in the world at the most managed to reach entertainment, but not enlightenment) -- instead of taking it out in real life where the consequences of unrestrained emotion are destructive.

[sureshvv]

To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique.

Not sure I agree entirely. I agree that "jiva and paramatma" is an attempt to inject a morally acceptable frame and is a form of rationalization. But why do you feel it is impersonal or that the rasa has been taken out of the equation?

[SrinathK]

To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique.

Not sure I agree entirely. I agree that "jiva and paramatma" is an attempt to inject a morally acceptable frame and is a form of rationalization. But why do you feel it is impersonal or that the rasa has been taken out of the equation?

Because in practice I see it used in an attempt to defend, rationalize or downplay the importance of the emotional colour, a means of distilling the impersonal from the personal -- but the concept itself is not wrong from a spiritual angle.

It is just to what extent certain emotional flavors are acceptable.

The nature and power of human emotion is the very reason why certain limiters are imposed on it. A mature awareness of this is better than just plain morality and embarrassment.

[kvchellappa]

Post 75: I cannot understand your vyakhyanam.

[RSR]

............

:

SringAra have all been used in the past."

..Yes. It was a blunder. and that is why we are gradually moving away from padams and javalis, however beautiful their music is. The solution is simple. Throw away their lyrivcs and make it instrumental only.
..I do not know about Islam if it has a concept of women devotees. But the Christian religion does revere women as saints. In Kerala, I have known great many respectable families dedicating their angelic daughters to Church service as nuns. We have the examples of Saradhamani of Ramakrishna mission. Even Nehru used to attend the spiritual sessions of Anandamayi Ma, in his later years. She was ever blissful! Which of our modern mystics like Paramahamsa , Shirdi Baba, Ramana Maharishi , Narayana Guru were householders? Actually, celibacy and conquering Lust , is so fundamental to Jainism and Buddhism and Hinduism which predate Christ by many centuries.
The puritanical conception about carnal love is , on a bit of reflection, absolutely correct. Gita lists kaamam, krodham, lobam and even moham (lust, hatred, avarice and attachment) as the four evils which make a person , falter from the righteous path.
We cannot change our gender or caste but we can dwell in the realm of divine bliss by constant thinking of the Almighty with awe, affection and adoration, by dedicating all our work for the welfare of society ( the manifestation of God) with devotion.
Sankara approached the issue from philosophical angle. Ramanuja, differentiated the self and paramathma but the best was given by Madhvacharya, who it is said, was very much influenced by the New Testament. That is why Purandaradasa sahithyams do not ask anything from the deity. . What is their to ask except make us steadfast in the path of justice and not swerve from the path of surrender / merger with the Supreme?
Smt MSS songs are worth chanting, singing everyday... 'dasanamadiko enne', 'jagathoddharana, kaliyugadali . nanege badavanu
Sush prayer with such music, ..What else do we want? எனக்குன்னிரு பதம் நினைக்க வரம் அருள்வாய். ஸ்ரீ ராமச்சந்திரா ! sang Arunachala KaviRayar.
What a far far cry from the music for music school, music for dance and music for fame and money!

[SrinathK]

............

:

SringAra have all been used in the past."

..Yes. It was a blunder. and that is why we are gradually moving away from padams and javalis, however beautiful their music is. The solution is simple. Throw away their lyrivcs and make it instrumental only.
..I do not know about Islam if it has a concept of women devotees. But the Christian religion does revere women as saints. In Kerala, I have known great many respectable families dedicating their angelic daughters to Church service as nuns. We have the examples of Saradhamani of Ramakrishna mission. Even Nehru used to attend the spiritual sessions of Anandamayi Ma, in his later years. She was ever blissful! Which of our modern mystics like Paramahamsa , Shirdi Baba, Ramana Maharishi , Narayana Guru were householders? Actually, celibacy and conquering Lust , is so fundamental to Jainism and Buddhism and Hinduism which predate Christ by many centuries.
The puritanical conception about carnal love is , on a bit of reflection, absolutely correct. Gita lists kaamam, krodham, lobam and even moham (lust, hatred, avarice and attachment) as the four evils which make a person , falter from the righteous path.
We cannot change our gender or caste but we can dwell in the realm of divine bliss by constant thinking of the Almighty with awe, affection and adoration, by dedicating all our work for the welfare of society ( the manifestation of God) with devotion.
Sankara approached the issue from philosophical angle. Ramanuja, differentiated the self and paramathma but the best was given by Madhvacharya, who it is said, was very much influenced by the New Testament. That is why Purandaradasa sahithyams do not ask anything from the deity. . What is their to ask except make us steadfast in the path of justice and not swerve from the path of surrender / merger with the Supreme?
Smt MSS songs are worth chanting, singing everyday... 'dasanamadiko enne', 'jagathoddharana, kaliyugadali . nanege badavanu
Sush prayer with such music, ..What else do we want? எனக்குன்னிரு பதம் நினைக்க வரம் அருள்வாய். ஸ்ரீ ராமச்சந்திரா ! sang Arunachala KaviRayar.
What a far far cry from the music for music school, music for dance and music for fame and money!

Your acceptance of Vaishnavaism then is very selective...

[RSR]

@81-> Yes. We are all selective in our preferences in any field. but my being selective does not exclude other paths if they are in tune with my perception. ( I prefer Periyaazhvaar to NammaLvar). ( vaathsalyam vs 'love')

[shankarank]

About the anthropologists , history centrists calling out lack of history in India, and the new myth makers.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2009/11 ... ndu-myths/

Ashoka "converted" to Buddhism goes the history! That itself is the Abrahamic view.

[shankarank]

@81-> Yes. We are all selective in our preferences in any field. but my being selective does not exclude other paths if they are in tune with my perception.

Everybody is in the universal truth business. Even Shaivism is not an exception. The professor claims he has explained Shaivism without Shiva and Shakti. So no faith or belief. Scientific!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuNUZp-0hfI

I like however , in one of those instances , he shows how King Rama was following Shaivism!

[shankarank]

I was once obliged to write a review of a Sriram Parthasarathy concert, never heard of him before that. It was very impressive, profound even, but an examination of the "song list" would not have indicated that. And there are rasikas to whom the whole concert would have bombed because it was not the A-list of songs. Pshaw. Here's what I wrote:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 373989.ece

So is it because of choice of rAgam Mohanam? On the one side we had people crazy about Maharajapuram Santhanam singing Mohanam. After his passing (1992), in 1993 , may be in remembrance or so, on Mysore Vasudevachariar day at MA mini hall , TNS gave a scintillating recital of rA-rA-rAjiva lochana. The hall was full, and overflowing into the entrance lobby. We were all outside, there was a lone chair next to a pillar and I got to sit for a while. Then Sri NSG showed up. He couldn't get in and I offered my seat. Scintillating Brighas for yEra - and he kept pouring sangatis on that line.

I know Sri VV Ravi was on violin ( based on the Hindu announcement) as also he was replying to every kaNakku being dished out.

So people should not be fooled by song list when it comes to some artistes.

The famed Thyagaraja Vidvath samajam concert of KVN with UKS ( evarUra) should be a reminder for people on how Mohanam becomes weighty.

[kvchellappa]

Is anyone supreme in this forum and his choice crucial for others? Is there any final word on which 'ism' is supreme?

[RSR]

@84-> I read the article cited by you. ..pure poison. Myths are more important than the so called 'historical reality'.
There seems to be vast difference between Buddha and buddhists of later years. ( not all) Similarly Jain and jains ( again, not all)..The OP should read the article. and the book cited by him.

[kvchellappa]

The post is on CM.

[RSR]

The post is on CM.

Apparently so. Actually, the link was an invitation to the trolls to flog a dead horse. I suggest that posts avoid giving just a link . The forum is obsessed with so and so.
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According to the stories, Ravana was born to a brahmin and was a devout siva baktha.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Parashurama (6th avatar of Vishnu) was a devout Shiva bhakta !
And, Parashurama built 108 Shiva temples in Kerala !

[Pratyaksham Bala]

What a drift !

[arasi]

Trolls, bores, sore at heart-s galore--
The door is ajar, who's to ask?
Kill a thread, a new one is born
Our not minding our manners a bit

All the philosophy spouted oft by
'Mightier than thou'. minds here--
Does it make them pause to think--
Culture comes with a heart first?

Ever stop growing flowers?
Tending not and relishing them
But wasting all the time instead
On soil analysis and fact finding?

A scavenger is a scavenger, yet, poor mods
The debris we leave for them to collect!

[kvchellappa]

The drift started in posts 3 and 4, pointed out by a knowledgeable rasika. 5 other rasikas seconded that observation. Another knowledgeable rasika also pointed out the irrelevance of such posts.
I am posting separately under 'Extraneous points in a thread' in Members's Lounge my views on the extraneous issues, as I did under Rasalila about Azhwars and gopikas that reared its head in an unrelated column.
I request that this thread be for discussing Shulman's views on CM. His point on CM and religion was in reply to a question. He is right that the kritis in CM (CM lays emphasis on kritis, though perhaps it need not) are in a religious context. No substantial point was made against this observation by the other digressor. Shulman hs not said whether it is good or bad. I enjoyed it that way, but I have no right to decide for others based on my experience.

[shankarank]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first. Then we also need to know what we mean by CM, its traditions and practice. With neither of this clarified, then the whole point of discussing his views on CM is just saying "yes" , "yes" - without even being clear whether we are agreeing with him even.

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

[kvchellappa]

To understand your views, I must understand you first. How do I do that? By some imputations?

[sureshvv]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first.

Wrong! We need to learn to discuss views rather than discussing people.

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

Just because you know something, that should not stop you from learning from anyone - even someone who knows less than you.

[shankarank]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first.

Wrong! We need to learn to discuss views rather than discussing people.

Because he speaks in English? Someone speaks English, then it is to be respected as a view expressed to be discussed as a view bereft of the viewer ( his perspective, background , his other works are irrelevant!). When he says , as kvc outs it, that kritis have a religious connotation whose view he is discussing. He is discussing people - us!

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

Just because you know something, that should not stop you from learning from anyone - even someone who knows less than you.

It is not that he knows less. He knows a lot, but he knows it differently and plain wrong from my view.

[kvchellappa]

I guess no one understands him as you interpret and I do not get the sort of message you put out. Of course, I am dumb.
He is to the point in his replies and passes no judgment on us. He can be wrong and his views may be debatable, but that cannot be said based on things he has not said or his personality that is not established.
Going by your stand, I can never know the worth of your views as your personality is not known to me beyond the comments I choose to read.

[sureshvv]

Because he speaks in English? Someone speaks English, then it is to be respected as a view expressed to be discussed as a view bereft of the viewer

WTF? Aren't we all speaking in English? Or are you yelling at the screen in Tamil and Google is translating for you? That actually may explain a few things

It is not that he knows less. He knows a lot, but he knows it differently and plain wrong from my view.

You have not been able to verbalize what is "plain wrong" in a plain way. May be if you stopped attacking him and his tribe and focused on the view, you may have better luck.

He says "CM is composition centric and HM is not as much". If any local had said this, you would have let it go in a breeze. Just because his name happens to be David Shulman which happens to be Abrahamic, you are jumping up and down. Zero credibilty!

[RSR]

In my posts at 3 and 4, I have given my stand . My foremost concern is how to take CM to the lakhs of rural chidren in Tamilnad. and in due course, many of them will develop in mature years as very good musicians. . This can be done only by adding classical music as compulsory subject right from elementary school. The further point is that such songs should be in mother tongue. ,in Tamilnad , it should be in tamil. In Andhra and Telengana, it should be Telugu. In Karnataka, it should be kannada. and perhaps in Kerala, it can be malayalam / sanskrit songs.
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If we want to train our rural children in CM, from very young age, it should not be done in a language unknown to the children. So, no point in singing Dikshithar krithis to socially and culturally deprived people.
You could not have missed my appreciation of the method and work done by SPIC-MACOY and Vijay Siva.
Doing voluntary work is one aspect but the more effective method is by formal education from elementary school.
TN Govt is moving in the right direction.
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I have also pointed out many times, that CM is basically krithi oriented and right from the days of Purandaradasa( 1500), these krithis in kannada, telugu and sanskrit have been about vaishanavam. It is a statement of fact. As an exercise, one can go to the forum's vageyakar section and note the nearly 100 lyricists. and study the meaning of the songs. Mostly they will be about vaishanavam. or Devi.
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So, unless the children have a reverential attitude towards the common stories like Ramayanam, Mahabaratham and partly of Bagavathm, and also of Thevaram, Thiruvasakam, they cannot sing with bhaavam.
That is why I said, the preference is primarily vaishanavam and inclusive of other songs on Murugan, Vinayagar , Sakthi and finally Natarajar.
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There are some people who object to introducing religious themes into CM. But what are we to do with the thousands of CM krithis created over the last five centuries beginning from Purandaradasa?
So, my suggestion is switch over to INSTRUMENTAL music rather than vocal music.
It solves two problems, 1) wrong pronunciation and singing 2) avoiding erotic content.
For example, Kshethragaya Padams.( even there, it is about the God Krishna) Instead of condoning such singing as the author does, I am for discarding all the lyrics with such explicit vulgar themes. but adopt the music for instrumental rendering especially in violin, orchestration and nagaswaram.
post 4 is for appreciating the fact that many of the concerts in the BANGALORE festival were solo violin concerts!
and attended and appreciated by nearly 4000 in the audience.[/color]
(As an aside, I have total revulsion to so-called barathanatyam. with all that gaudy make up and gilt-edged jewels). No grace. I have seen how Gujarathi ladies perform group dance .( jothra) . 50% of all ANNAAMACHARYA krithiS are said to be on man-woman relation.
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I initiated another thread to place all the secular and non-film songs in tamil but I find that I have almost exhausted. though they were light classical tunes only. This is a pointer that 'secular' songs are very hard to come by in Tamil music outside the film world.
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The OP should read the article by his favorite author that Sri.Sankarank has given link to.
Perhaps he will change his perception.
Bye.

[shankarank]

Because he speaks in English? Someone speaks English, then it is to be respected as a view expressed to be discussed as a view bereft of the viewer

WTF? Aren't we all speaking in English? Or are you yelling at the screen in Tamil and Google is translating for you? That actually may explain a few things

Locals understand only English nowadays - I may have better luck!

He says "CM is composition centric and HM is not as much". If any local had said this, you would have let it go in a breeze. Just because his name happens to be David Shulman which happens to be Abrahamic, you are jumping up and down. Zero credibilty!

Locals are in awe of the gentleman. So I have better luck Arguing with him than with locals.

Actually locals were not saying CM is composition centric. Locals were also defensive about that only. But all they could say was our notes oscillate more in comparison with HM. Unfortunately they used English words "Composition" and "Composer" - means verbatim what is composed - except that even dIkshitar's works were written down 2 generations down only.

They called pApanAsam sivan as tamizh tyagarAja, because he used some similar tunes, but really could not understand why PS's compositions have a chance on the stage - while subrahmaNya bharathy's didn't? TMK at least has some clues - that the latter is not amenable to his musical abstraction it seems!

So locals never said to my knowledge that we are composition centric. They only said we are all dunces and vAggEyakkAras gave compositions only to explain the rAgA. They are all lakshana gItams or lakshana vaRNams or lakshana kritis.

But they left out an important part that syllabic intervals and relative stresses are also music and syllabic overlay over tALA produces music as well!

The Audience also clueless, including a sabha secretary from nanganallUR , who sat in KGS for TMK's concert accompanied by Nagai Muralidharan, TS and Srisundarkumar was saying - why there is need for uppapakkavAdyams when a senior Mridangist is there. Seconded by another oldie next to him!

Such were the dunces of the clueless civilization!

[kvchellappa]

I like your free rein of the mind delving into some subtleties and wherever it would flow like the torrential rain water which does not respect the shores of a stream.
To my mind, many locals emphasise that CM is kriti-centric, and of course those who understand music as you do will also agree with you meaningfully on the other aspects you mention. If it was only about kriti, manodharma would have not been there as I see it. So, no new point appears to have been made.
By the way, I am reminded of the Principal of Loyola College address us as 'You Indians'. He was very much one though converted.
That reminds me of a charge you made in another post about SBI, Madurai. I asked for details in a private mail. Could you please give so that I can cross-check? My enquiries did not corroborate what you wrote.
I followed the adage, 'If you can't beat them, join them' in digressing.

[shankarank]

I found your email - replied to it with names and years - I saw it only recently after a big gap of time when searching through history - I did not reply since it was too old a posting. You tenure in SBI Madurai I believe precedes that incident by 10 years or so.

[kvchellappa]

Thanks

[shankarank]

Here is somebody that Gautam Tejas could influence to sing his music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCeEXqca-Bc

Something I happened to receive in whatsapp - I am no means a purveyor of such things. Would this be considered text centric? And is the substance only with the nature of the voice - any bit of manOdharma in there?