Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

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jodha
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Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

TkM we all know is a living legend;contemporary of PMI.
A equally talented artist at par with PMI as the saying goes.but normally people don't talk of him nor I find any one sharing his recordings with admiration.
Why is he ignored ?

HarishankarK
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by HarishankarK »

Generally percussionists are not celebrated as much vocalists or melody instrumentalists

talalaya
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by talalaya »

HarishankarK wrote: 28 May 2018, 13:45 Generally percussionists are not celebrated as much vocalists or melody instrumentalists
But someone of Murthy Mama's stature should be so, IMHO!!
jodha wrote: 28 May 2018, 10:45 TkM we all know is a living legend;contemporary of PMI. A equally talented artist at par with PMI as the saying goes.but normally people don't talk of him nor I find any one sharing his recordings with admiration. Why is he ignored ?
You may end up getting only "Politically correct" statements for such a delicate question. It is akin to asking how come so many great musicians never got Sangeetha Kalanidhi, which we are done and dusted with. So does it really matter? Anyways, my two cents, from an absolutely neutral perspective.

- TKM's available recordings somehow personally for me doesn't invoke the "Goosebump" factor like the ones of PMI/ PSP/ Sivaraman/ Sankaran does. (I dont mind being called an Ignoramus for this, but this is what i felt so far, honestly, having heard all of them live and also plenty of their recordings).
- From what I heard, his diplomacy/ PR or the lack of it rather, is something that might have gone against him.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by hnbhagavan »

TK Murthy is a Sangitakalanidhi and honored by Music Academy.

sureshvv
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by sureshvv »

Yep! Think OP may have meant Guruvayur Durai.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

Mostly because , people are atuned to the tonal superiority of many of the other mridangists. TKM himself , based on people who have interacted with him, has expressed his frustrations on that regard.

Most people cannot hear music without harmonic sounds. Ghatam got celebrated only abroad and Khanjira in some obscure fusions. You might have noticed that morsing has more appeal, even if it provides less scope for rhythmic complexity. The latter aspect, only the musicians know , and sometimes they have to have an appealing sound voice for morsing to be effective.

Some of TKM's best expressions I have heard are with Dr S. Ramanathan ( a concert that starts with tyagarAja pAlayAsumam - gauLa will be a good example) , the 1970s TVS concert tour - there is a SrI mAtRuBhUtam there, and of course with TNS ( a most recent one I posted in V&V forum) . With his accompaniment to MSS , her music and voice appeal would overshadow anybody.

Also his accompaniment to MSS, resulted in a bias against him, ( a person who accompanied a female artiste!) to a large extent.

I don't particularly recall a great concert of his with SSI, I may have to rehear some of the recordings. Anyways I would think, SSI's flow is unsuited for his style which is a robust style while it flows and shows subtleties mostly at the edges and SSI in particular is not very consciously affording any such opportunities in that regard.

talalaya
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by talalaya »

shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16 Mostly because , people are atuned to the tonal superiority of many of the other mridangists. TKM himself , based on people who have interacted with him, has expressed his frustrations on that regard.
Very Simple then, A Vidwan of his stature and Caliber could have easily switched over to a Mridangam giving a better Tonal Quality (Could have been Kappi or Kuchi). Mridangam is basically a nadha instrument and definitely it is more attractive when a Laya Vidwan has a Naadha oriented Style than one heavy on Mathematics.
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16 SSI's flow is unsuited for his style which is a robust style while it flows and shows subtleties mostly at the edges and SSI in particular is not very consciously affording any such opportunities in that regard.
An accompanist (Violin or Mridangam) is expected to modify his or her's style to suit the Vocalist, else the compatibility problem will always be a talking point. The Styles of Almost all the great Mridangists, with the exception of Umayalpuram Sivaraman maybe, never got along well with atleast couple of vocalists, or to rephrase, there havent been much concerts with certain vocalist-Mridangist combo.

jodha
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

hnbhagavan wrote: 28 May 2018, 20:03 TK Murthy is a Sangitakalanidhi and honored by Music Academy.
Honour is different from celebration.And SK has been awarded to persons who have not carved a niche for themselves as artists like for e.g T.Viswanathan.
I listened to a few old recordings of TKM and find then elegant.That is why I opened the topic.

MaheshS
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by MaheshS »

shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16 I don't particularly recall a great concert of his with SSI, I may have to rehear some of the recordings. Anyways I would think, SSI's flow is unsuited for his style which is a robust style while it flows and shows subtleties mostly at the edges and SSI in particular is not very consciously affording any such opportunities in that regard.
SSI-VVS-TKM - Music Academy, 1958. An outstanding concert.

01 - jAnaki_ramaNa - shuddhasImantini
02 - mAkElarA_vicAramu - ravicandrikA
03 - manavajanma - poorvi kalyani
04 - mArubalka_kuna_vEmira - shrIranjani
05 - cEtaha_shrI_bAlakrSNam - dvijAvanti
06 - rAvE_himagiri_kumAri - tODi
07 - harihara_putram_shAstAram - vasantA
08 - vinarAda_nA_manavi_vinarda - dEvagAndhAri
09 - rAgam_tAnam_pallavi - shankarAbharaNam
10 - rAgam_tAnam_pallavi - shankarAbharaNam
11 - rAgam_tAnam_pallavi - shankarAbharaNam
12 - parulanna_mATa - kApi
13 - ennavidham
14 - nAdhru_dhImdhIm - shankarAbharaNam
15 - sapasyakausalya - mangalam

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by hnbhagavan »

It is not only TK Murthy.Please let me know whether any Music Festival is dedicated to MD Ramanathan.?
Even Kaakshetr does not celebrate MDR in a big way.There is a day dedicated to MDR in Tripunitura every year in Feb/Mar conducted by one admirer Krishna Murthy.
Like wise no Music festival planned to honor Lalgudi and MSG,Flute Ramani.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

talalaya wrote: 29 May 2018, 12:39
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16 Mostly because , people are atuned to the tonal superiority of many of the other mridangists. TKM himself , based on people who have interacted with him, has expressed his frustrations on that regard.
Very Simple then, A Vidwan of his stature and Caliber could have easily switched over to a Mridangam giving a better Tonal Quality (Could have been Kappi or Kuchi). Mridangam is basically a nadha instrument and definitely it is more attractive when a Laya Vidwan has a Naadha oriented Style than one heavy on Mathematics.
naadha orientation is not born out of style. It is the result of skin vs. skin. Sometimes a great percussionist may be created without that gift. It is not that his naadham is not there 100%.. many times it is not picked up well by our Mayikkus.

As regards heavy mathematics, most informed musicians consider him a saukyam filled Mridangist only. It has a robust tension/tightness , the way he reckons intervals. Math comes from occasional tiRmanams he gives on the concluding sangatis of many majestic compositions.

Mahesh S, thanks for locating that concert.

talalaya
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by talalaya »

shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 17:50 It is not that his naadham is not there 100%.. many times it is not picked up well by our Mayikkus.
Sorry, dont agree completely. We do have brilliant recordings of Sivaraman/ Sankaran/ Ramabhadran during the mikeless/ the-one-kondai-mike-for the vocalist alone era, where the right side and the Thoppi sounds have been magnificent. In fact, the single Kondai Mike picked up the sound better than the current one-mike-for-each side of the Mridangam scenario.
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 17:50As regards heavy mathematics, most informed musicians consider him a saukyam filled Mridangist only.
Pretty much my point. A purely mathematical style may not be appealing to everyone, only to the pundits. If the art form or the artiste wishes to be popular, the playing should cut across various groups of listeners. At the end of the day it is The Artist's prerogative too.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by hnbhagavan »

Generally celebration of eminent artists depend on the students and admirers.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

hnbhagavan wrote: 29 May 2018, 20:01 Generally celebration of eminent artists depend on the students and admirers.
.. self, family members, social groups ...

Nick H
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 17:50 naadha orientation is not born out of style.
Mridangam naadam is entirely down to training and technique --- or choice. Those who do not learn it or choose not to use it will not choose instruments that have it. Those that do will not accept instruments that are not suited.

Even I could probably still play a ringing dhin or chapu. of course, that's all I could do :oops:.

Whilst I used to be rather hard-line about this, thinking that mridangists who do not play with naadam might as well be playing some other instrument, I still prefer a good sound, but know that there are other ways in mridangam may be played.

T K Murthy is a miracle. He is not much seen, but is certainly given a great deal of respect when he is seen. He is over 90 (93?) and when he plays he actually plays. To be able to move the fingers at his age is incredible, to be able to move the mind is even more so.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

talalaya wrote: 29 May 2018, 18:34
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 17:50 It is not that his naadham is not there 100%.. many times it is not picked up well by our Mayikkus.
....where the right side and the Thoppi sounds have been magnificent.
You didn't read my comment carefully. Even the doyens with vibrant nAdham have faced poor acoustics ( after all the effort they take in making the instrument!). I did state at the outset that TKM's is not a vibrant variety.
talalaya wrote: 29 May 2018, 18:34
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 17:50As regards heavy mathematics, most informed musicians consider him a saukyam filled Mridangist only.
Pretty much my point. A purely mathematical style may not be appealing to everyone, only to the pundits. If the art form or the artiste wishes to be popular, the playing should cut across various groups of listeners. At the end of the day it is The Artist's prerogative too.
The characterization: "Purely Mathematical style" is patently wrong. An acute awareness of tALa kriyas and the sAhityam flow is not mathematical. Many times a cross beat is not mathematical , it is many times flowy - or flowing smooth , if you can get what I mean. viSranti-aware is the right term, and that is a cross cutting attribute of all the first order and second order Mridangists.

The only really Mathematical Mridangist is Sri Palghat Raghu and he is also that, in specific contexts. Otherwise every Mridangist is mathematical, like every vocalist is melodious , if only they can adhere to Sruti.

Did all vocalists cut across various groups of listeners? Vocalists who cut across various groups of listeners - what about them? Their vidvat was questioned , some even called out for not following sampradhAya etc!!

There are many naysayers for every Mridangist that you mentioned. For e.g. regarding UKS who is the most acknowledged, a young vocalist from Karnataka, not a professional , but almost professional grade , in the U.S , told me once: "look how he breaks the song into pieces" - referring to his accompaniment to many an youngster budding artiste of the time ( this was around 2006/2007).

And for the saukyam filled Trichy Sankaran - I have to repeat for the umpteenth time, there was a mass exodus in MA, the second evening session in 2002 while he waited to begin his tani. The rookie MA Secretary wrote in his Sangeetham.com blog, how they did not venture to do the same the following year because they were scared of ( his waiting and shaming them!) what happened the previous year.

So many times we misrepresent things in a way that is highly misleading!

jodha
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

This two anecdotes will explain TKM's effect on the main artists.
NSG once removed his golden ring and wore it to him on the stage in saluting his accompaniment.
Madurai GSM told that as an youngster he was at awe with TKM playing esp.his podi cholloos (intrinsic minute sangathis) and dreamt of pairing with him which was realised after some years.
TKM talks frankly.may be that is another reason why he is not celebrated.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 30 May 2018, 00:23 And for the saukyam filled Trichy Sankaran - I have to repeat for the umpteenth time, there was a mass exodus in MA, the second evening session in 2002 while he waited to begin his tani. The rookie MA Secretary wrote in his Sangeetham.com blog, how they did not venture to do the same the following year because they were scared of ( his waiting and shaming them!) what happened the previous year.
Such mass exodus signaled only one thing. It is not about knowledge of layam or familiarity, or anything seminal to CM as a whole. The then current state of the art enjoyment was conditioned by song listening akin to chitrahaar and oLiyum-oliyum. ellam ozhindatu! (disappeared). Some of these artists became celebrities - where accompanists were props - like they view SPB/Lata mangeshkar in a spot light. Some half baked pop culture even in that sense!

We are talking about a concert of one of the leading manodharmic / traditional artiste performing in the sadas of all sadas, sabha of all sabhas.

Real connoisseurs of Ilayaraja/Rahman would have given an ear.

This crowd does not belong to any era or genre. They would be as much misfit in a sampradaya bhajan or in an abhang concert. Sampradaya Bhajan/ Abhang concert is a musical experience by itself.

How do you expect them to have sensitivity or give an ear to folk art or villu pATTu? To call these people "elite" is even an insult to the word "elite". To call these people folkish is an insult to folk art.

May be David Shulman's "CM is text oriented" belongs to this scenario only. These people won't belong in an ARI concert also. So I say ARI music is not text based.

Only thing they can be compared to is the Industrial waste that runs in cooum river!

I consider it a low point in the art history of India.

rupavathi
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by rupavathi »

shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16I don't particularly recall a great concert of his with SSI, I may have to rehear some of the recordings. Anyways I would think, SSI's flow is unsuited for his style which is a robust style while it flows and shows subtleties mostly at the edges and SSI in particular is not very consciously affording any such opportunities in that regard.
The best example of TKM's accompaniment to SSI is the concert starting with the Anandabhairavi ata tala varnam and having Kambhoji RTP as centrepiece. MInd-blowingly brilliant concert, with SSI in great form, especially that Kambhoji alapana. This concert is wrongly labeled in many collections as SSi-LGJ-UKS, but it is actually Murthy mama. Raghu Sir is said to have remarked how TKM's playing for that varnam is a golden benchmark.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by hnbhagavan »

Rasikas can fund for a TK Murthy celebration.Is it only our prerogative to keep writing at Rasikas?.
Each year Rasikas can poll and select a leading Vidwan not commonly remembered.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

rupavathi wrote: 31 May 2018, 12:22
shankarank wrote: 29 May 2018, 11:16I don't particularly recall a great concert of his with SSI, I may have to rehear some of the recordings. Anyways I would think, SSI's flow is unsuited for his style which is a robust style while it flows and shows subtleties mostly at the edges and SSI in particular is not very consciously affording any such opportunities in that regard.
The best example of TKM's accompaniment to SSI is the concert starting with the Anandabhairavi ata tala varnam and having Kambhoji RTP as centrepiece. MInd-blowingly brilliant concert, with SSI in great form, especially that Kambhoji alapana. This concert is wrongly labeled in many collections as SSi-LGJ-UKS, but it is actually Murthy mama. Raghu Sir is said to have remarked how TKM's playing for that varnam is a golden benchmark.
Yet to hear all of it. SSI's appreciation of his interludes in rAvE himagiri is remarkable, where the signature tone of kappi mridangam is picked up well. In many of his concerts, this does not happen to that level. Many times I would think the mic. setting is to blame. In the context of the microphone, Mridangam does need special equalization. But in this concert I would say he is not that trademark TKM. He is flowing with SSI.

shankarank
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by shankarank »

hnbhagavan wrote: 31 May 2018, 16:40 Rasikas can fund for a TK Murthy celebration.Is it only our prerogative to keep writing at Rasikas?.
Each year Rasikas can poll and select a leading Vidwan not commonly remembered.
I think by celebration if you mean literally, he was in the context of MSS centenary celebrated well. In addition KRM conferred his Guru Surajananda award recently.

In figurative terms his disciples are celebrating his legacy - JV, Purshottaman, KVG , Anirudh - all of them.

advaitin
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by advaitin »

One of his senior disciples, pretty much a mirror image in the style of playing would be Kodunthirapally Parameswaran, from Palghat. A few videos are available on Youtube of his playing and also along side Murthy Sir.

jodha
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

K.V.Prasad is defenitely one of his worthy disciples.
who turned 60 recently and retired from AIR.
Also B.Sivaraman.
Last edited by jodha on 31 May 2018, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

ram1999
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by ram1999 »

jodha wrote: 28 May 2018, 10:45 TkM we all know is a living legend;contemporary of PMI.
A equally talented artist at par with PMI as the saying goes.but normally people don't talk of him nor I find any one sharing his recordings with admiration.
Why is he ignored ?
One of the most absurd discussion topics started in this forum that can lead to pages of discussions which can be ever more absurd.

1. What makes you think TKM is not a celebrated artist.
2. What is your definition of an artist being or not being celebrated?
3. What is the need for an artist to be celebrated and what is achieved from that ??

TKM is a very senior artist and has accompanied almost all the stalwarts old / young / past and present artists. He has been a regular accompanist for MSS for many years. Many of his disciples are noteworthy artists of today. Do you think all this will be possible if he not an artist of repute ??

Nick H
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by Nick H »

ha ha... it is a good point!

jodha
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

ravan 1999,
If you don't see any merit in the topic , you could have simply ignored.by reacting to it you too have become part of this absurdity.is it not ?welcome on board.you seem to be the fittest person😊

ram1999
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by ram1999 »

jodha wrote: 01 Jun 2018, 11:15 ravan 1999,
If you don't see any merit in the topic , you could have simply ignored.by reacting to it you too have become part of this absurdity.is it not ?welcome on board.you seem to be the fittest person😊
It is ram1999 and not ravan1999. You may learn to address in a proper manner and it isnt too difficuult or complicated to read my handle !!! :D :D And by the way i like both the characters ram and ravan !!

And as u have started an absurd topic i wanted to put a stop to the absurdity rather than discuss and belittle a great artist !! you have sadly mistaken that i jumped into the absurd discussion :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

jodha
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by jodha »

Hi, I made changes to your name because of your GREAT musical knowledge as we all know how great a musical personolity ravan is.
I never knew that discussing about an artist is to belittle him.Should I call you shakespeare also ?😆
So that is going to make it long but don't mind typing
ravanshakespeare 1999.
Happy ?☺😊😀😁😂😃😄😅😆😇😈😉😯😐

Nick H
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by Nick H »

What is this? Smiley war?

Rama1992 ( ;))... I see your point that TKM is indeed as well celebrated and recognised as any other living senior mridangist, and I even agree with it. But given that he is a giant in all but height, I don't think it is absurd to ask why not more? .

But what is to be done? He could be asked to play more concerts; he could be invited to be on the VIP list for more functions; he could be showered with yet more awards, shawls and garlands. I don't know him personally at all: he seems very able to take on all of these things several times a year, but perhaps he might not welcome yet more.

Let's not war. Are we not mostly agreed on our respect for him?

hnbhagavan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by hnbhagavan »

The most important aspect is whether such senior Vidwans like TKM are well off and can take care of any health concerns at old age as they may not be earning as much as younger days.All the senior musicians infact all performing musicians should have good health cover.I have heard musicians like MDR
suffered in old age due to monetary problems.It was reported even Vellore Ramabhadran had some issues towards end of his life.

thenpaanan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by thenpaanan »

rupavathi wrote: 31 May 2018, 12:22 The best example of TKM's accompaniment to SSI is the concert starting with the Anandabhairavi ata tala varnam and having Kambhoji RTP as centrepiece. MInd-blowingly brilliant concert, with SSI in great form, especially that Kambhoji alapana. This concert is wrongly labeled in many collections as SSi-LGJ-UKS, but it is actually Murthy mama. Raghu Sir is said to have remarked how TKM's playing for that varnam is a golden benchmark.
Could some kind soul point me to a recording of this concert? I do not believe I have listened to it (I may have listened to pieces of it without realizing).

Thakns,
Thenpaanan


Aditto
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by Aditto »

because we are not celebrating !

arasi
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by arasi »

Yes, in a way, we are celebrating him--by asking the question and bringing to the thread clips, thus focusing on his skills!

thenpaanan
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by thenpaanan »

Thanks! As with many concerts of SSI all the songs (in the inimitable SSI version) are familiar to me but somehow the particular combination isn't.

-Thenpaanan

talalaya
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Re: Why TKMoorthy is not celebrated ?!

Post by talalaya »

Thanks for the pointer. Pretty rare concert, in the sense, SSI starting with a Varnam, that too an Ata Thala varnam and of all Anandha Bhairavi Ata Thala Varnam.

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