What is your take on this?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 07 Jul 2018, 00:01

கோவிந்தா என்போம் கோபாலா என்போம்
ராம் ராம் என்போம் சாய் ராம் என்போம்

அல்லா கௌதம புத்தா என்போம்
சௌராஷ்டிரா மகாவீர இயேசு பிதா என்போம்

மதமென்னவானாலும் மனிதரும் ஒன்றே
பெயறேன்னவானாலும் அறம் பொருள் ஒன்றே

நம் தந்தை இறைவன் நாம் அவர் பிள்ளை
அவர் புகழ் பாடி பெரும் இன்பம் கோடி

I rest my case

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jul 2018, 02:23

The word is nAvidar. And, do we call the woman who runs the beauty parlor nAvidai? The word um...baTTar (n) sounds so old world

VKR,
Way to go! Sometimes on the forum, one feels this way: old is not that old and young isn't as young either, the way we think about society in these modern times. Depends on which of the traditions we keep and which we ignore. This is where sabkO sanmati dE bhagwAn comes in as a reminder: idaya vAyil tiRandirukkaTTum, manamennum vAyilukku avvappOdu oru pUTTu thEvai--let the door to the heart be open always, but the one to the mind be locked now and then...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Jul 2018, 09:07

harimau wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 04:07 T M Krishna then asked, "You can't applaud because the song is about Allah?"

TMK's intent is couple of things. Sociology exercise to poke into people and record responses of interest for his future drivels with the drive by media ( Rush lingo!)

.

Make a point about how "religion" does not matter in the delivery of something as human as music

.

Sundara Rajan wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 09:48 The word Allah does not refer to any Islamic God like Hindu Gods Rama, Krishna etc. Allah in Arabic language simply means GOD, not necessarily a Muslim God, just as BhagavAn in Sanskrit or KadavuL in Tamil mean God.

There is a Chinamaya swamiji who said he switched to use the word bhagavan instead of God , so that children know the difference

. But what is this word God mean? Is it some kind of a central paNiNi translation engine term that needs to sit between all words in different languages? Bhagavan and kaDavuL have some underlying etymologies actually.

sureshvv wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 09:43 Aakashaat patitam toyam...

River and rain as metaphor may not make sense to the deserters! As I had always maintained there was/is a Muslim caste in India that we need to work on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnbfnK3TESA . Even if we suppose that Allah is some generic term, there are edicts that they cannot bow to anybody other than Allah in that direction - i.e. there are some specifics!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3r1JhjBfKI

Somehow music does some wonders.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 07 Jul 2018, 16:06

shankarank wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 09:07Is it some kind of a central paNiNi translation engine term that needs to sit between all words

Yes, panini is a kind of sandwich.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 07 Jul 2018, 16:34

uday_shankar wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 16:06
shankarank wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 09:07Is it some kind of a central paNiNi translation engine term that needs to sit between all words
Yes, panini is a kind of sandwich.

Yes.

And Paganini is the enemy (paga) of panini.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 07 Jul 2018, 16:59

For once, I am in agreement with Harimau so far as his original post is concerned. The issue is about the person, occasion and the intention of the gimmick on that occasion.
Gandhiji's Ramdhun was sung in prayer meeting in Delhi in 1947 during the partition tragedy when literally crores of innocent people irrespective of their accident of birth lost everything and were living in refugee camps in perpetual fear of violence any time. There were known attempts on the life of Gandhiji himself earlier.
. It is an inexcusable parody to equate the present occasion and such meetings.
There are good and bad people in all religions and sects. Dr.APJ Kalaam exemplifies the true spirit of 'sarva dharma samabava'.and dedication to science and technology. They can co-exist.
Leaving out the atheists nihilists and 'secularists, even theism need not be based on 'nirguna but more often is based on 'sarguna' brahmam. Common people have always had their 'personal' God to redress their problems.
Srimad Bagavatham has plenty of nice stories and the 'gopika' stuff is only a tiny part of ' Jagadhoddharana.'
wonderment .and it must be understood in a higher plane. as in the story of ANdAl and Meera Bai.and should not be vulgarized.
A little knowledge scoffs at the mystery of creation. Great scientists are still marveling at it. Ignorance indeed is bliss. Arrogant bookish knowledge cannot give even a tiny second of blissful oneness which countless unlettered believers experience though totally ignorant. TS Eliot Waste Land says it all.? And great 'seers' like Paramahamsa, Shirdi Baba and Ramana were not Research scientists.
"Aakashath Pathitham Thoyam Yatha Gachathi Sagaram
Sarvadeva Namaskaram Keshavam Prathi Gachathi"
This being a forum for music, permit me to remind us all of a great but almost forgotten prayer by Smt.MS
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... va-rajaram
( NOTE THE HEART-MELTING CONCLUDING LINES OF HER RENDITION)
'

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jul 2018, 17:38

There is a feeling in certain parts that Indian society is now in retrograde mode, coinciding with the rise of various senas in different parts of the country at the cost of individual liberty. Your take on this may correlate with your take on that.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Jul 2018, 18:04

Suresh,
Kindly do not emphasise 'individual liberty' too much. The bane of today's chaos in the World Order is based on this so called 'individual liberty' at the cost of individual dharma. Though this is a different subject altogether, if everyone starts asserting his individual liberty, there will be only 'jungle rAj' - exactly what is obtained today.

You may or may not agree - Our land has always considered 'dharma' - not free will - as THE prime principle on which the universe operates, and man - so puny in comparison - is no exception. But the point on which this society has decapacitated itself is that the privileged lot had made it a point to exploit the humble.

Yesterday, Pratyaksham Bala made a post about 'ambattan' - the original word 'ambashTa' (Sanskrit word) which means 'medicine man'. How this word (ambattan) has become an abusive language is an example of the environment we are all living in. (This post has been deleted by the author).

Some senior musicians seem to have made it a point to poke offense - God alone knows why they do so. But such people are rubbing salt over the wounds our society is suffering from. We need 'real' medicine men - medicine of sobriety and wisdom.

May we pray for emergence of sane voices - not hoarse parochial voices.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 07 Jul 2018, 18:59

RSR wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 16:59
For once, I am in agreement with Harimau so far as his original post is concerned.....

I don't think I said anything about my position on T M Krishna's behavior. Because at least some of the people will comment on me based on their perception of me, as they indeed did.

I am waiting to see what y'all think!

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 07 Jul 2018, 21:24

shankarank wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 09:07
harimau wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 04:07 T M Krishna then asked, "You can't applaud because the song is about Allah?"
---------------etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnbfnK3TESA .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3r1JhjBfKI

Somehow music does some wonders.

shankarank
Thank you very much for the two videos that you have shared.
It demolishes, the lies of pseudo-progressives. .
I wish that you had added the topic of the videos as well.
Anyway, Great work.
It however is not music that gave us that harmony. but true understanding of religions and spirituality.
You know about the Sufi tradition.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jul 2018, 02:44

MS sang on Allah and KVN on Jesus. There is nothing novel in this. Chinmaya mission is about Vedanta - advaita which negates distinctions. Nothing sacrilegious by singing on Allah there.
The difference is the intention. The singer knows that he attracts a sizable audience by his music and that he can peddle in his insults with the least opposition.
The mistake we make is swallowing his baits. We affirm thereby that he can manipulate us. It is as though he is the pied piper and we the infatuated rats, even if led by someone under tiger skin.
What bold views when the person calling for it is less than bold by remaining under a false name! And when it is discussed in a forum that the singer spurns! What purpose?
I again object to this discussion in General Discussions, which is clearly for music related topics, not musician related. That such things happened cannot justify it.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jul 2018, 04:29

Well-said. One doesn't have to respond to TMK's every action like conditioned reflex. Pity, we rasikas tend to bite every time he throws his line--the antithesis of gOpikAs thronging to their Krishna's flute? Yes, he can endear us still with his well-presented music, of course. We better stay away from the rest.
As for hiding under the hide of jungle beasts, it's one's karmA...

You sound lion-hearted in your post,KVC

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jul 2018, 16:28

I am reminded of a film song (Hindi film 'Dhool ka Phool') - khudanE hamE bhakshA Ek dharti - aur humnE banAya kahin Hind aur Iran'. (God bestowed us one Earth, but we made (divided) into many countries (Hindustan, Iran)).

Music is a similar endowment common for humanity. How much sectarian have we become - nothing to do with India only but, the World as such!

I am posting here under a link on Hindustani Music by 'Nikhil' - I do not know whether this has already been posted and discussed or whether this is the correct forum. The Mods may decide suitably.

https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2016/06 ... sic-today/

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Jul 2018, 18:31

vgovindan wrote: ↑07 Jul 2018, 18:04 Suresh,
Kindly do not emphasise 'individual liberty' too much. The bane of today's chaos in the World Order is based on this so called 'individual liberty' at the cost of individual dharma. Though this is a different subject altogether, if everyone starts asserting his individual liberty, there will be only 'jungle rAj' - exactly what is obtained today.

You may or may not agree - Our land has always considered 'dharma' - not free will - as THE prime principle on which the universe operates, and man - so puny in comparison - is no exception. But the point on which this society has decapacitated itself is that the privileged lot had made it a point to exploit the humble.

Sir.. I find the concept of "individual liberty" much more basic, easy to understand and explain than the concept of "dharma". Both slogans have been abused by many in the past and present but that does not take away their validity.

Individual liberty does not mean that you can encroach on another person's liberty either. So I don't see how your prediction of "Jungle Raj" follows. In fact the denial of individual liberty is a textbook case of Jungle Raj. So I think your concern is misplaced. You will grant me that "dharma" itself has been used to cause untold miseries to large numbers of people - so I don't see how that is so much superior either.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Jul 2018, 18:41

kvchellappa wrote: ↑08 Jul 2018, 02:44 MS sang on Allah and KVN on Jesus. There is nothing novel in this. Chinmaya mission is about Vedanta - advaita which negates distinctions. Nothing sacrilegious by singing on Allah there.

Agree 100%

The difference is the intention. The singer knows that he attracts a sizable audience by his music and that he can peddle in his insults with the least opposition.

I don't see how any insult was peddled here.

The mistake we make is swallowing his baits. We affirm thereby that he can manipulate us. It is as though he is the pied piper and we the infatuated rats, even if led by someone under tiger skin.

Why should we besmirch his intentions? Why can't we see this as someone expressing his individual belief. As rasikas, we can definitely learn to do that.

What bold views when the person calling for it is less than bold by remaining under a fal]se name! And when it is discussed in a forum that the singer spurns! What purpose?

A pen name is not a false name. Most people know who harimau is. And he knows that too, That he continues to post (after a brief hiatus) tells me that he is ready to own up to his views, even when they are sometimes bigoted.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jul 2018, 18:53

Suresh,
I happened to watch two videos recently - one by Tarek Fatah (a Pakistani - now settled in Canada) a Baluchistan activist. He says that 'human rights is same for a billionaire and a pauper'. Is it really?
The second video is about Lalit Modi - he says 'he is born with a diamond spoon in his mouth'.
The third is about Vijaya Mallayya - you can see him always surrounded by his lawyers.

I also happened to watch a video with Jaggi Vasudev by a Western lady (I think belonging to UNO) discussing about poverty alleviation. Jaggi Vasudev said that, if the standard of living in US is taken as a yardstick, then we will need four and a half planets to provide for the whole humanity (hope this is true).

The question is - Is there anything called 'equity'? Can those who are surrounded by a battery of lawyers (who charge 3.15 crores for 5 hearings - Ram Jethmalani) be considered as equivalent to a beggar in the street, in terms of human rights? If not, then what is the meaning of 'individual liberty'? What kind of peversity is this? It seems more like an 'elitist' argument (sorry, if I sound offensive).

Thank God that there are beggars - at least those who would not venture to thievery to fill their stomach. These beggars are real adherers of dharma - who would not stoop. I bow my head for such adherents.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jul 2018, 19:25

Suresh,
I may also add that 'dharma' cannot be pitted against 'individual liberty'. The universe is one organic whole . If we consider the human race as a tree (belonging to the vana of Universe), then we, individuals are just like individual leaves of the tree. If individual leaf starts having its own free will (to do whatever one feels like), then the tree will perish. The animal kingdom (particularly ants) is replete with examples of social cohesion. Only man seems to think that he is all by himself.

Dharma is not something which is specific for humans. The very fact that the Sun is glowing for the past 4 odd billion years, is the testament of dharma - an inviolable law of the universe. (Sun is the progenitor of life on earth). How can human beings exclude themselves from the operation of such a law? Just because we are endowed with self-awareness, can we behave anyway we feel like? In order to bring equity - which is there in all species except humans - we have to redefine dharma - bereft of all the dross that has accumulated over a period of time (due to exploitative nature of humans against those who are vulnerable). Let us not denigrate dharma as such.

btw, free will is about making deliberate choice in a situation having contradictory options. Much like the words 'freedom' as against its translation - 'svatantra' (self regulation), these two are not same. One is binding (svatantra) and the other is licence (freedom).

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 08 Jul 2018, 19:38

vgovindan wrote: ↑08 Jul 2018, 18:53 I also happened to watch a video with Jaggi Vasudev by a Western lady (I think belonging to UNO) discussing about poverty alleviation. Jaggi Vasudev said that, if the standard of living in US is taken as a yardstick, then we will need four and a half planets to provide for the whole humanity (hope this is true).

The average US household consumes over 12000 units of electricity a year. What was your house's EB bill last year?

Countries located in extreme climates consume way more energy. The average household in Iceland consumes over 50000 units of electricity a year.

China consumes over 1/4th of the world's entire energy budget now - almost equal to the US and European Union combined. These 3 account for half the world's energy consumption.

India consumes 5% of the world's power.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jul 2018, 19:52

Srinath,
I belong to half-privileged class (as that of US) - consuming about 6000 units a year.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 09 Jul 2018, 10:27

sureshvv wrote: ↑08 Jul 2018, 18:31 I find the concept of "individual liberty" much more basic, easy to understand and explain than the concept of "dharma".

While setting forth individual rights which guarentee individual liberty, the constitution strangely recognized some group rights. Especially of those people who have not been wronged in the past.

In fact the story goes that when leaders went to plead for independence , the British asked them first to reconcile with Jinnah. So even after partition , the constitution looks like not by the people, for the people , of the people, but an agreement between 3 groups: Muslims, Christians and others. Why should the constitution take cognizance of any book for that matter?

When eminent intellectuals including TMK went to submit their uniform civil code draft , they took care to tom-tom the removal of Hindu Undivided Family - yeah we did Tinker with Hindus as well you see!. But should we ask them to reconcile with Imams first, just like how the India was setup and then the constitution was setup?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Jul 2018, 16:18

shankarank,
Talking about Independence and Partition, you will be surprised to know, the only democratic body - if you can call it so - at that time (1947) present and functioning was the 'Constituent Assembly' presided over by Rajendra Prasad. But, neither Independence nor Partition was ever discussed in that forum - not even once. All the decisions were taken by political leaders - headed by Nehru. Even Mahatma Gandhi was ignored. In fact, Gandhi did never participate in the deliberations of Constituent Assembly, he was not present in the Formal Transfer of Power ceremonly held in the Central Hall of Parliament building. Partition was a tripartite agreement between Nehru, Jinnnah and British. It is was a coterie decision.

The country's Independence Decision, Partition Decision were a sham.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jul 2018, 17:03

Gandhi shunned power suitably for Nehru, and went to Bengal which was bleeding. Partition had the blessings of Gandhi. Godse was incensed by that and went rabid.

kvjayan · Post by **kvjayan** » 09 Jul 2018, 17:40

"MS sang on Allah". May be for a recording company or during the Friday prayer meeting in Gandhi Mantapam (Guindy) and not in TT Devasthanam or Ramanavami Utsavam (eg. Asthika Samajam, Venus Colony).

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 09 Jul 2018, 18:14

kvchellappa wrote: ↑08 Jul 2018, 02:44 MS sang on Allah ...

Which song ? Any link ?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Jul 2018, 19:00

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 18:14Which song ? Any link ?

It is one of the songs in her album with songs in 10 languages - B1

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 09 Jul 2018, 19:42

.
Ghalib's Ishrat e Katra -
इश्रत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना ...
Is this in praise of Allah ?

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 09 Jul 2018, 20:22

rshankar wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:00
Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 18:14Which song ? Any link ?
It is one of the songs in her album with songs in 10 languages - B1

As a devotee of Smt.MS Subbulakshmi, I wish to give the correct information about the LP RECORD DEVOTIONAL SONGS IN 11 LANGUAGES. 1) sanskrit 2) tamil ( nenjukku neethi) 3) telugu ( vasudeva) 4) bengali ( pathithodhranai gange_ 5) kannada ( yaduvamsa tilakanae) 6) punjabi ( sikhism prayer) 7) marathi (hari bola ) 8) malayalam 9) gujarathi
10) hindi and 11) urdu . The Urdu song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EbIESRjc2I ( blocked for copyright reasons)
by the famous Urdu poet Mirza Ghalib.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghalib
Ghalib was not particularly a religious person. but philosophical . More like Rubaiyat. Hie poems spoke of finaer emotions and sometimes, more like a school of Hinduism. He loved our land.
In his poem "Chiragh-i-Dair" (Temple lamps) which was composed during his trip to Benares during the spring of 1827, Ghalib mused about the land of Hindustan (the Indian subcontinent) and how Qiyamah (Doomsday) has failed to arrive, in spite of the numerous conflicts plaguing it.[24]
“ Said I one night to a pristine seer

(Who knew the secrets of whirling Time)
'Sir you well perceive,
That goodness and faith,
Fidelity and love
Have all departed from this sorry land.
Father and son are at each other's throat;
Brother fights brother.
Unity and Federation are undermined.
Despite these ominous signs
Why has not Doomsday come?
Why does not the Last Trumpet sound?
Who holds the reins of the Final Catastrophe?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jul 2018, 20:31

I have heard a song sung by MS on Allah (in an invocation that is on different gods - five, I think).

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 09 Jul 2018, 20:46

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:42 .
Ghalib's Ishrat e Katra -
इश्रत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना ...
Is this in praise of Allah ?

Yes, it is !

Here is a link which works :
https://soundcloud.com/shajar/ishrat-e- ... rdu-ghazal

The lyrics :-

इशरत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना
दर्द का हद से गुज़रना है दवा हो जाना
…
अब ज़फ़ा से भी हैं महरूम हम, अल्लाह-अल्लाह!
इस क़दर दुश्मन-ए-अरबाब-ए-वफ़ा हो जाना
…
दिल से मिटना तेरी अन्गुश्ते-हिनाई का ख्याल
हो गया गोश्त से नाख़ुन का जुदा हो जाना

है मुझे अब्र-ए-बहारी का बरस कर खुलना
रोते-रोते ग़म-ए-फ़ुरकत में फ़ना हो जाना
…
बख्शे है जलवा-ए-गुल ज़ौक-ए-तमाशा, गालिब
चश्म[ को चाहिए हर रंग में वा हो जाना

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 10 Jul 2018, 07:43

PB @ 54
---------
No.It is not. It is by no means a devotional poem. but a lovely lyric.
--------
M.S.Subbulakshmi-Ishrate Qatra-Urdu ....upload by BALA GIRISH
---The ecstasy for every drop, Is to become one with the sea; When pain exceeds all limits, it becomes a remedy.
..My destiny with you, like the combination lock; Was to separate, the instant all elements ticked like a clock...
The heart was consumed in the routine troubles of life. The knot’s ability to untie was lost, in the rubbing and strife. ..
-------------------------------------
Ab jafa say bhi hain mehroom hum Allah Allah
Iss qadar dushman-e arbaab-e wafa hoo jana

We are now, deprived even of torture -- God Oh! God. The extent to which the once beloved has developed animosity and discord.
----------------------------------------
Weakness set in by weeping, such that, The warmth of the body came to pass; This surely made me comprehend, how water cools when it turns to gas.
Removal from the heart of the thought of your finger, ‘henna-dyed’; Became as if it were the separation, of the nail from the hide.
The clearing of the sky after heavy monsoon precipitation; Is akin to perishing, in endless weeping of separation.
If the scent of the flower is not desirous of your court yard’s ease; Why then does the dust of the path acquire swiftness in the morning breeze...So that you may be acquainted with the miracle of air, pure and clean. See in the monsoon, how, even the mirror turns green.
The beauty of the flower, Ghalib, enhances the aesthetics of the scene. The eye should be able to adapt to every shade, and stay serene.
==========================================
A lovely poem.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jul 2018, 08:11

Many of the devotional poems in our bhakti tradition are also beautiful poems. The poem in question is one such.
It was great of MS that she sang on Allah, in keeping with our tradition of accepting all faiths. As I said, she has sung on Allah in another instance also.
Ramakrishna Parmahamsa lived as a devout Muslim and Christian, and affirmed that the experience in all instances was identical. Why do we walk an extra mile to deny what is laudable?

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 10 Jul 2018, 08:51

RSR wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 20:22... As a devotee of Smt.MS Subbulakshmi, I wish to give the correct information about the LP RECORD DEVOTIONAL SONGS IN 11 LANGUAGES. 1) sanskrit 2) tamil ( nenjukku neethi) 3) telugu ( vasudeva) 4) bengali ( pathithodhranai gange_ 5) kannada ( yaduvamsa tilakanae) 6) punjabi ( sikhism prayer) 7) marathi (hari bola ) 8) malayalam 9) gujarathi
10) hindi and 11) urdu . The Urdu song ...

10 or 11 ?

The link given by rshankar in post #50 gives details of the songs in the HMV 1975 LP Record. It mentions “Devotional Songs in 10 Languages”.

1. Sanskrit - Bhajare Yadu Natham
2. Hindi - Hari Maitho
3. Gujarati - Narayananu Nama
4. Bengali - Pathithoddharini Gange
5. Malayalam - Kandu Kandu
6. Urdu - Ishrate Katra
7. Marathi - Hari Bola
8. Kannada - Yadu Vamsa
9. Telugu - Vasudeva Vasudeva
10. Tamil - Nenjukku Neethi

There is no mention of “punjabi ( sikhism prayer)”

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 10 Jul 2018, 16:40

deleted

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jul 2018, 16:43

If not, moderator pl delete.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 10 Jul 2018, 18:02

vgovindan wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 16:40...
...
I request you to kindly rescind your post.

The member has edited his post.
But his post, quoted by you, is still there !

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 10 Jul 2018, 18:30

pb,
He has not deleted the post, but modified it - not very positively. If he deletes it, I shall also delete. Sorry, this is not tit-for-tat. There is some minimum decorum. I don't mind my being called names.

PS : I have since deleted my post.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 Jul 2018, 15:08

kvchellappa wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 08:11 Many of the devotional poems in our bhakti tradition are also beautiful poems. The poem in question is one such.
It was great of MS that she sang on Allah, in keeping with our tradition of accepting all faiths. As I said, she has sung on Allah in another instance also.
Ramakrishna Parmahamsa lived as a devout Muslim and Christian, and affirmed that the experience in all instances was identical. Why do we walk an extra mile to deny what is laudable?

The Mirza Galib poem is NOT a religious hymn. It is more like a song of despair. That is all I want to say. Just because there is the word Allah there ( more like adak kadavulLe! tamil). it does not become religious poem.
The reference to personal love ( unrequitted) is plainly there.

Kindly go through the home page note of mine in
sites,google.com/site/homage2mssubbulakshmi
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As for the langauge or 11 language problem, I will double check soon and confirm
Smt.MS has sung 3 songs created by Guru Nanak uploaded by karthee sarma in tube.
If I remember right, the LP record I have in mind was titled songs for National Integration.
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vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 11 Jul 2018, 16:45

RSR,
Mirza Ghalib was not a devout Muslim - as is generally understood by the word 'devout'. He was a man of rigtheous conduct and his poems border on Sufi tradition of ishq - love which transcends ordinary human passions. He belonged to a royal family and was getting a 'purse' from British. He seems to have been addicted to liquor. I have seen the famous serial on him by Gulzar. He lived in Delhi Chandni Chowk area. His poems are more or less melancholic.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Jul 2018, 17:24

We are stretching a point. MS sang it as a devotional poem. Whatever MS sang was devotional even if it is nejukku neethiyum or a desiya gitam. The word Allah in the poem is not something like tu, hi, kila etc. in samskrtam (I forget the generic term for it). A poem is devotional when addressed to a god and is included deliberately by the singer in devotional poems. There can be no two opinions on it.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 Jul 2018, 18:56

vgovindan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2018, 16:45 RSR,
Mirza Ghalib was not a devout Muslim - as is generally understood by the word 'devout'. He was a man of rigtheous conduct and his poems border on Sufi tradition of ishq - love which transcends ordinary human passions. He belonged to a royal family and was getting a 'purse' from British. He seems to have been addicted to liquor. I have seen the famous serial on him by Gulzar. He lived in Delhi Chandni Chowk area. His poems are more or less melancholic.

Sri.Govindan,
Exactly. We are in perfect sync as regards the poet and this poem.
Thank you Sir.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 Jul 2018, 19:05

kvchellappa wrote: ↑11 Jul 2018, 17:24 We are stretching a point. MS sang it as a devotional poem. Whatever MS sang was devotional even if it is nejukku neethiyum or a desiya gitam. The word Allah in the poem is not something like tu, hi, kila etc. in samskrtam (I forget the generic term for it). A poem is devotional when addressed to a god and is included deliberately by the singer in devotional poems. There can be no two opinions on it.

I am sorry. I cannot agree with you regarding this song. Sri.Govindan has just now given the correct view.
I am no less an admirer of Smt.MS 's religious and patriotic fervour but this song was chosen by her more for one of the best by Ghalib and Urdu.
Is not Ragupathi Ragava rajaram ...Easwara Allah thero naam. enough for her spiritual bent and respect for all religions?
Let us drop the matter there. please.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Jul 2018, 19:34

Devotion need not show emotion or supplication or plead abjectness. It is addressed to Allah and was chosen for that purpose. We will end on this note.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Jul 2018, 01:47

As expected, people started posting all kinds of rubbish. "Ishvar Allah Tere Naam" and similar sentiments were to be expected from readers (and believers) of The Hindu and was to be had in profusion.

If you welcome Yesudas singing "Swagatham Krishna" and "Harivarasanam", if you accept Uraiyur Khader Batcha singing songs on Murugan, you have got absolutely no grounds to object to T M Krishna singing a song on Allah. Venue, sponsor, etc., are irrelevant.

What is sauce for goose is sauce for gander.

One must be consistent in one's approach. You can't criticize a Vaishnavite for singing about Allah while simultaneously talk about how Yesudas and Kader Batcha are examples of Indian Secularism and the syncretic nature of India's religions (another favorite phrase of The Hindu and the pseudo-secular brigade).

Anyway, this particular topic turned out to be some sort of a Rorschach test.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Jul 2018, 07:35

That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 13 Jul 2018, 16:05

harimau,
....sentiments expected from readers of The Hindu....

I may state there are shades of grey. It is better to avoid such bland statements without actually going into the spirit of such statements. There are believers by belief only, believers by rationalisation and consequent conviction, and non-believers who are just like believers by belief - non-belief.

Isvar allAH terO nAM - as an example - is not a rhetoric, but coming out of conviction born out of true understanding of the core truths as propounded in our upanishads etc - at least in so far as Gandhi is concerned. And, Gandhi represents certain values as cherished by this culture.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Jul 2018, 16:16

kvchellappa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2018, 07:35 That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?

I am consistent and focused on logic and analysis, no matter where it leads.

When people can't see that or cannot accept the conclusions it inexorably leads to, they accuse me of Islamophobia, sexism, racism, casteism, Brahmin exceptionalism and anything else that they have read about in The Hindu.

It is a sad fact of life that people with IQs in the low 40s are allowed to breed and to post on websites.

PS. I half expected that someone might respond with "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" to #70 but that would require a slightly broader education than cramming for the IIT entrance examination all your life.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Jul 2018, 19:16

kvchellappa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2018, 07:35 That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?

I deliberately withheld my personal opinion for several days to see what everybody's take was going to be.

If I had also given my opinion on T M Krishna's actions, that may have skewed some of the responses we got on this board.

As is typical, sureshvv commented about me rather than about the issue on hand, adding of course the mandatory "Aakaashaat pathitham thoyam...." to prove his secular credentials, but which in fact is nothing but craven and abject surrender to followers of "minority religions", as if being in a minority entitles one to special privileges.

He would now have diddly-squat to say. Unless it is something totally inane, which I don't put past him.

As I said, the topic was sort of a Rohrschach test of those who responded. You could see people trying to negotiate a rather tricky path, trying to decide how to support or oppose T M Krishna and how much to support or oppose T M Krishna. Equally, it said something about people who sat out the discussion.

Certainly, T M Krishna had a lot fun jerking people's chains.

Yeah, me too.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Jul 2018, 21:33

sureshvv wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 21:57
harimau wrote: ↑06 Jul 2018, 20:28
<snip>

If you have no opinion, or afraid of the likes of sureshvv, say so.

sureshvv is likely to call you "casteist" for bringing in ambattan.

<snip>

Am beginning to wonder who is really afraid here

Also ambattan is a profession. As long as one doesn't assume that the ambattan's parent/offspring is also one, he/she cannot be accused of being casteist. Just FYI.

Ok, here is an example of casteism for you.

I was having a conversation with a descendant of a famous nagaswaram vidvan (of the Isai Vellalar caste) and happened to mention the name of a well-known nagaswaram vidvan and the reaction was, "He belongs to the barber caste"!

So there are a whole lot of people who believe that certain occupations such as playing the nagaswaram belongs only to one caste and anybody else playing the nagaswaram is attempting to usurp their (Isai Vellalar's) position in the caste hierarchy.

Casteism is alive and well in Tamil Nadu.

By the way, when martha-Krishna who was railing against casteism mentioned that she is engaged to be married, you didn't ask her if she was marrying within her caste. You wouldn't because you were trying to prove that I am casteist-racist. But the answer is obvious: if she didn't, she would have been killed by her father for bringing dishonor to her family.

You are so bent on proving your adherence to Dravidian Thought that you couldn't question her!

You are the one who is afraid!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Jul 2018, 21:38

Time to close another thread.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Jul 2018, 21:40

SrinathK wrote: ↑13 Jul 2018, 21:38 Time to close another thread.

Just when I am beginning to have some fun!

Change your handle to 'killjoy'!