What is your take on this?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Pratyaksham Bala
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#51 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 09 Jul 2018, 19:42

.
Ghalib's Ishrat e Katra -
इश्रत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना ...
Is this in praise of Allah ?
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RSR
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#52 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by RSR » 09 Jul 2018, 20:22

rshankar wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 19:00
Pratyaksham Bala wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 18:14
Which song ? Any link ?
It is one of the songs in her album with songs in 10 languages - B1
As a devotee of Smt.MS Subbulakshmi, I wish to give the correct information about the LP RECORD DEVOTIONAL SONGS IN 11 LANGUAGES. 1) sanskrit 2) tamil ( nenjukku neethi) 3) telugu ( vasudeva) 4) bengali ( pathithodhranai gange_ 5) kannada ( yaduvamsa tilakanae) 6) punjabi ( sikhism prayer) 7) marathi (hari bola ) 8) malayalam 9) gujarathi
10) hindi and 11) urdu . The Urdu song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EbIESRjc2I ( blocked for copyright reasons)
by the famous Urdu poet Mirza Ghalib.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghalib
Ghalib was not particularly a religious person. but philosophical . More like Rubaiyat. Hie poems spoke of finaer emotions and sometimes, more like a school of Hinduism. He loved our land.
In his poem "Chiragh-i-Dair" (Temple lamps) which was composed during his trip to Benares during the spring of 1827, Ghalib mused about the land of Hindustan (the Indian subcontinent) and how Qiyamah (Doomsday) has failed to arrive, in spite of the numerous conflicts plaguing it.[24]
Said I one night to a pristine seer

(Who knew the secrets of whirling Time)
'Sir you well perceive,
That goodness and faith,
Fidelity and love
Have all departed from this sorry land.
Father and son are at each other's throat;
Brother fights brother.
Unity and Federation are undermined.
Despite these ominous signs
Why has not Doomsday come?
Why does not the Last Trumpet sound?
Who holds the reins of the Final Catastrophe?
Last edited by RSR on 09 Jul 2018, 20:45, edited 2 times in total.
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kvchellappa
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#53 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 09 Jul 2018, 20:31

I have heard a song sung by MS on Allah (in an invocation that is on different gods - five, I think).
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#54 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 09 Jul 2018, 20:46

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 19:42
.
Ghalib's Ishrat e Katra -
इश्रत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना ...
Is this in praise of Allah ?
Yes, it is !

Here is a link which works :
https://soundcloud.com/shajar/ishrat-e- ... rdu-ghazal

The lyrics :-

इशरत-ए-क़तरा है दरिया में फ़ना हो जाना
दर्द का हद से गुज़रना है दवा हो जाना

अब ज़फ़ा से भी हैं महरूम हम, अल्लाह-अल्लाह!
इस क़दर दुश्मन-ए-अरबाब-ए-वफ़ा हो जाना

दिल से मिटना तेरी अन्गुश्ते-हिनाई का ख्याल
हो गया गोश्त से नाख़ुन का जुदा हो जाना

है मुझे अब्र-ए-बहारी का बरस कर खुलना
रोते-रोते ग़म-ए-फ़ुरकत में फ़ना हो जाना

बख्शे है जलवा-ए-गुल ज़ौक-ए-तमाशा, गालिब
चश्म[ को चाहिए हर रंग में वा हो जाना
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RSR
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#55 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by RSR » 10 Jul 2018, 07:43

PB @ 54
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No.It is not. It is by no means a devotional poem. but a lovely lyric.
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M.S.Subbulakshmi-Ishrate Qatra-Urdu ....upload by BALA GIRISH
---The ecstasy for every drop, Is to become one with the sea; When pain exceeds all limits, it becomes a remedy.
..My destiny with you, like the combination lock; Was to separate, the instant all elements ticked like a clock...
The heart was consumed in the routine troubles of life. The knot’s ability to untie was lost, in the rubbing and strife. .
.
-------------------------------------
Ab jafa say bhi hain mehroom hum Allah Allah
Iss qadar dushman-e arbaab-e wafa hoo jana


We are now, deprived even of torture -- God Oh! God. The extent to which the once beloved has developed animosity and discord.
----------------------------------------
Weakness set in by weeping, such that, The warmth of the body came to pass; This surely made me comprehend, how water cools when it turns to gas.
Removal from the heart of the thought of your finger, ‘henna-dyed’; Became as if it were the separation, of the nail from the hide.
The clearing of the sky after heavy monsoon precipitation; Is akin to perishing, in endless weeping of separation.
If the scent of the flower is not desirous of your court yard’s ease; Why then does the dust of the path acquire swiftness in the morning breeze...So that you may be acquainted with the miracle of air, pure and clean. See in the monsoon, how, even the mirror turns green.
The beauty of the flower, Ghalib, enhances the aesthetics of the scene. The eye should be able to adapt to every shade, and stay serene.
==========================================
A lovely poem.
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kvchellappa
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#56 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 10 Jul 2018, 08:11

Many of the devotional poems in our bhakti tradition are also beautiful poems. The poem in question is one such.
It was great of MS that she sang on Allah, in keeping with our tradition of accepting all faiths. As I said, she has sung on Allah in another instance also.
Ramakrishna Parmahamsa lived as a devout Muslim and Christian, and affirmed that the experience in all instances was identical. Why do we walk an extra mile to deny what is laudable?
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#57 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 10 Jul 2018, 08:51

RSR wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 20:22
... As a devotee of Smt.MS Subbulakshmi, I wish to give the correct information about the LP RECORD DEVOTIONAL SONGS IN 11 LANGUAGES. 1) sanskrit 2) tamil ( nenjukku neethi) 3) telugu ( vasudeva) 4) bengali ( pathithodhranai gange_ 5) kannada ( yaduvamsa tilakanae) 6) punjabi ( sikhism prayer) 7) marathi (hari bola ) 8) malayalam 9) gujarathi
10) hindi and 11) urdu . The Urdu song ...
10 or 11 ?

The link given by rshankar in post #50 gives details of the songs in the HMV 1975 LP Record. It mentions “Devotional Songs in 10 Languages”.

1. Sanskrit - Bhajare Yadu Natham
2. Hindi - Hari Maitho
3. Gujarati - Narayananu Nama
4. Bengali - Pathithoddharini Gange
5. Malayalam - Kandu Kandu
6. Urdu - Ishrate Katra
7. Marathi - Hari Bola
8. Kannada - Yadu Vamsa
9. Telugu - Vasudeva Vasudeva
10. Tamil - Nenjukku Neethi

There is no mention of “punjabi ( sikhism prayer)”
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vgovindan
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#58 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by vgovindan » 10 Jul 2018, 16:40

deleted
Last edited by vgovindan on 10 Jul 2018, 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
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kvchellappa
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#59 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 10 Jul 2018, 16:43

If not, moderator pl delete.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#60 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 10 Jul 2018, 18:02

vgovindan wrote:
10 Jul 2018, 16:40
...
...
I request you to kindly rescind your post.
The member has edited his post.
But his post, quoted by you, is still there !
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vgovindan
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#61 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by vgovindan » 10 Jul 2018, 18:30

pb,
He has not deleted the post, but modified it - not very positively. If he deletes it, I shall also delete. Sorry, this is not tit-for-tat. There is some minimum decorum. I don't mind my being called names.

PS : I have since deleted my post.
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RSR
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#62 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by RSR » 11 Jul 2018, 15:08

kvchellappa wrote:
10 Jul 2018, 08:11
Many of the devotional poems in our bhakti tradition are also beautiful poems. The poem in question is one such.
It was great of MS that she sang on Allah, in keeping with our tradition of accepting all faiths. As I said, she has sung on Allah in another instance also.
Ramakrishna Parmahamsa lived as a devout Muslim and Christian, and affirmed that the experience in all instances was identical. Why do we walk an extra mile to deny what is laudable?
The Mirza Galib poem is NOT a religious hymn. It is more like a song of despair. That is all I want to say. Just because there is the word Allah there ( more like adak kadavulLe! tamil). it does not become religious poem.
The reference to personal love ( unrequitted) is plainly there.

Kindly go through the home page note of mine in
sites,google.com/site/homage2mssubbulakshmi
--------------------------------------------------------
As for the langauge or 11 language problem, I will double check soon and confirm
Smt.MS has sung 3 songs created by Guru Nanak uploaded by karthee sarma in tube.
If I remember right, the LP record I have in mind was titled songs for National Integration.
-----------------------------------------------------
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vgovindan
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#63 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by vgovindan » 11 Jul 2018, 16:45

RSR,
Mirza Ghalib was not a devout Muslim - as is generally understood by the word 'devout'. He was a man of rigtheous conduct and his poems border on Sufi tradition of ishq - love which transcends ordinary human passions. He belonged to a royal family and was getting a 'purse' from British. He seems to have been addicted to liquor. I have seen the famous serial on him by Gulzar. He lived in Delhi Chandni Chowk area. His poems are more or less melancholic.
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kvchellappa
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#64 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 11 Jul 2018, 17:24

We are stretching a point. MS sang it as a devotional poem. Whatever MS sang was devotional even if it is nejukku neethiyum or a desiya gitam. The word Allah in the poem is not something like tu, hi, kila etc. in samskrtam (I forget the generic term for it). A poem is devotional when addressed to a god and is included deliberately by the singer in devotional poems. There can be no two opinions on it.
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RSR
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#65 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by RSR » 11 Jul 2018, 18:56

vgovindan wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 16:45
RSR,
Mirza Ghalib was not a devout Muslim - as is generally understood by the word 'devout'. He was a man of rigtheous conduct and his poems border on Sufi tradition of ishq - love which transcends ordinary human passions. He belonged to a royal family and was getting a 'purse' from British. He seems to have been addicted to liquor. I have seen the famous serial on him by Gulzar. He lived in Delhi Chandni Chowk area. His poems are more or less melancholic.
Sri.Govindan,
Exactly. We are in perfect sync as regards the poet and this poem.
Thank you Sir.
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RSR
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#66 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by RSR » 11 Jul 2018, 19:05

kvchellappa wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 17:24
We are stretching a point. MS sang it as a devotional poem. Whatever MS sang was devotional even if it is nejukku neethiyum or a desiya gitam. The word Allah in the poem is not something like tu, hi, kila etc. in samskrtam (I forget the generic term for it). A poem is devotional when addressed to a god and is included deliberately by the singer in devotional poems. There can be no two opinions on it.
I am sorry. I cannot agree with you regarding this song. Sri.Govindan has just now given the correct view.
I am no less an admirer of Smt.MS 's religious and patriotic fervour but this song was chosen by her more for one of the best by Ghalib and Urdu.
Is not Ragupathi Ragava rajaram ...Easwara Allah thero naam. enough for her spiritual bent and respect for all religions?
Let us drop the matter there. please.
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kvchellappa
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#67 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 11 Jul 2018, 19:34

Devotion need not show emotion or supplication or plead abjectness. It is addressed to Allah and was chosen for that purpose. We will end on this note.
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harimau
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#68 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by harimau » 13 Jul 2018, 01:47

As expected, people started posting all kinds of rubbish. "Ishvar Allah Tere Naam" and similar sentiments were to be expected from readers (and believers) of The Hindu and was to be had in profusion.

If you welcome Yesudas singing "Swagatham Krishna" and "Harivarasanam", if you accept Uraiyur Khader Batcha singing songs on Murugan, you have got absolutely no grounds to object to T M Krishna singing a song on Allah. Venue, sponsor, etc., are irrelevant.

What is sauce for goose is sauce for gander.

One must be consistent in one's approach. You can't criticize a Vaishnavite for singing about Allah while simultaneously talk about how Yesudas and Kader Batcha are examples of Indian Secularism and the syncretic nature of India's religions (another favorite phrase of The Hindu and the pseudo-secular brigade).

Anyway, this particular topic turned out to be some sort of a Rorschach test.
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kvchellappa
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#69 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by kvchellappa » 13 Jul 2018, 07:35

That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?
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vgovindan
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#70 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by vgovindan » 13 Jul 2018, 16:05

harimau,
....sentiments expected from readers of The Hindu....

I may state there are shades of grey. It is better to avoid such bland statements without actually going into the spirit of such statements. There are believers by belief only, believers by rationalisation and consequent conviction, and non-believers who are just like believers by belief - non-belief.

Isvar allAH terO nAM - as an example - is not a rhetoric, but coming out of conviction born out of true understanding of the core truths as propounded in our upanishads etc - at least in so far as Gandhi is concerned. And, Gandhi represents certain values as cherished by this culture.
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harimau
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#71 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by harimau » 13 Jul 2018, 16:16

kvchellappa wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 07:35
That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?
I am consistent and focused on logic and analysis, no matter where it leads.

When people can't see that or cannot accept the conclusions it inexorably leads to, they accuse me of Islamophobia, sexism, racism, casteism, Brahmin exceptionalism and anything else that they have read about in The Hindu.

It is a sad fact of life that people with IQs in the low 40s are allowed to breed and to post on websites.

PS. I half expected that someone might respond with "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" to #70 but that would require a slightly broader education than cramming for the IIT entrance examination all your life. :lol:
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harimau
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#72 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by harimau » 13 Jul 2018, 19:16

kvchellappa wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 07:35
That is refreshing post from you, Harimau. Have you forgotten your avatara-karana?
I deliberately withheld my personal opinion for several days to see what everybody's take was going to be.

If I had also given my opinion on T M Krishna's actions, that may have skewed some of the responses we got on this board.

As is typical, sureshvv commented about me rather than about the issue on hand, adding of course the mandatory "Aakaashaat pathitham thoyam...." to prove his secular credentials, but which in fact is nothing but craven and abject surrender to followers of "minority religions", as if being in a minority entitles one to special privileges.

He would now have diddly-squat to say. Unless it is something totally inane, which I don't put past him.

As I said, the topic was sort of a Rohrschach test of those who responded. You could see people trying to negotiate a rather tricky path, trying to decide how to support or oppose T M Krishna and how much to support or oppose T M Krishna. Equally, it said something about people who sat out the discussion.

Certainly, T M Krishna had a lot fun jerking people's chains.

Yeah, me too.
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harimau
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#73 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by harimau » 13 Jul 2018, 21:33

sureshvv wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:57
harimau wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 20:28

<snip>

If you have no opinion, or afraid of the likes of sureshvv, say so.

sureshvv is likely to call you "casteist" for bringing in ambattan.

<snip>
Am beginning to wonder who is really afraid here :D

Also ambattan is a profession. As long as one doesn't assume that the ambattan's parent/offspring is also one, he/she cannot be accused of being casteist. Just FYI.
Ok, here is an example of casteism for you.

I was having a conversation with a descendant of a famous nagaswaram vidvan (of the Isai Vellalar caste) and happened to mention the name of a well-known nagaswaram vidvan and the reaction was, "He belongs to the barber caste"!

So there are a whole lot of people who believe that certain occupations such as playing the nagaswaram belongs only to one caste and anybody else playing the nagaswaram is attempting to usurp their (Isai Vellalar's) position in the caste hierarchy.

Casteism is alive and well in Tamil Nadu.

By the way, when martha-Krishna who was railing against casteism mentioned that she is engaged to be married, you didn't ask her if she was marrying within her caste. You wouldn't because you were trying to prove that I am casteist-racist. But the answer is obvious: if she didn't, she would have been killed by her father for bringing dishonor to her family.

You are so bent on proving your adherence to Dravidian Thought that you couldn't question her!

You are the one who is afraid!
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SrinathK
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#74 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by SrinathK » 13 Jul 2018, 21:38

Time to close another thread.
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harimau
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#75 Re: What is your take on this?

Post by harimau » 13 Jul 2018, 21:40

SrinathK wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 21:38
Time to close another thread.
Just when I am beginning to have some fun!

Change your handle to 'killjoy'!
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