Is music sacred?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Sachi_R
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#1 Is music sacred?

Post by Sachi_R »

These thoughts were floating in my mind this morning.

Why do we say any music is sacred?

At one level, if a Dhrupad singer says his music is sacred, or as rasikas here we say Carnatic music is sacred, we are having in mind its evolution, its ethos, the personalities who shaped it, its themes, and its place in our lives.

I have heard great musicians (who don't profess religious beliefs) repeatedly say that music is sacred to them, and that's the only meaning they see in life.

In a very fundamental sense, all creation speaks to us of life. That's sacred. As a theist, for me everything speaks of God. That's sacred.

Every creative pursuit draws upon deep resources of something good and beautiful intrinsically. That's sacred.

From the cowshed to the tilled land to the kitchen to the school room to the concert stage to the temple, we Hindus see the presence of God. That's sacred.

Every tradesman worships his tools. Every bullok cart driver worships his cart. That's sacred.

Music gives me a high like nothing else. I see something sacred in that experience. I begin to see musicians as special people, invoking sacred vibrations.

And most importantly, music is never in isolation. Anyone who makes music makes it to be heard. There is always the other, either one or many who experience the music that is made. This connect with the audience is sacred.

All this comes to my mind when I hear anybody argue that India is a free country, he or she can sing anything and get away with it. The moment we sense the sacred in music, it is difficult to make it an instrument of protest, or political or social activism or worst, economic opportunism. Perhaps we should leave any form of music with its own dimensions of the sacred untarnished by our political or social leanings.

But that is hard when we feel we are fighting against or for some cause other than music. That's when music gets muddled....

shankarank
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#2 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

It depends on whether you prefer a top down spirituality or a bottom up one! God concept is a top down one. I have seen people quoting Morarji Desai saying Hindusim does not talk about God to start with! I have not cross checked!

Sachi_R
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#3 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Sachi_R »

I have heard people quoting someone more ancient,Vyasa
😀
Purusha Suktam

shankarank
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#4 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

Purusha is part of creation itself isn't it?

Sachi_R
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#5 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Sachi_R »

Not really, Shankarank.
In one theory, Parabrahman has two aspects, Purusha and Prakriti. Prakriti is under the control of Purusha, the Creator or God. Purusha becomes therefore the creator aspect of Parabrahman. Nothing else can create Purusha.

In another theory, which I subscribe to, Cosmic Essence or Intelligence is called Ishwara. It has two aspects: Consciousness and Creation, or Purusha and Prakriti.

In the Padma Purana, there is a very important shloka describing the idea of God that comes closest to my idea. RKSK in his Purandara presentation sang this shloka at the beginning. :

Saccidānanda-rūpāya Viśvōtpatyādihētavē |
Tāpatrayavināśāya Śrīkṛṣṇāya vayaṃ numaḥ ||

This same idea is emphatically stated repeatedly in the Bhagavadgita.

vgovindan
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#6 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by vgovindan »

I think it was the year 1979 when the consecration of mUrti of Lord Venkateswara in Balaji Temple in Sector III Rk Puram, New Delhi was carried out. The day before the consecration, the devotees were allowed to go around the mUrti - pending nEtrOnmIlanam. We could circumambulate the mUrti and even touch it. The next day nEtrOnmIlanam was done and no one, other than the appointed persons, could enter the garbha graha after that. Sacredness is what we invest.

Of course the Peepul tree is sacred; the bull is sacred, the cow is sacred, the bilva tree is sacred, the snake is sacred, the mouse is sacred, the crow is sacred - all in their place and time (dESa, kAla, vartamAna). Some better knowledgeable people will assert God - the idea and the idol - have origins in the minds of man. Animals and plants do not need a God - yet God has not failed to protect them on equal basis.

Similarly music is also sacred - and yet not. When tyAgarAja sings his mind out 'nA jIvAdhArA', it is the sacred music flowing - nAdOpAsana. But when MLV sings 'கையில் காசில்லாதவன் கடவுளானாலும் கதவைச் சாத்தடி', it is not sacred and yet her music of Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai will continue to sound in every Siva temple at 4 AM everyday in Margazhi month - it is sacred.

An advocate once asked a husband, standing trial for the offence of beating his wife - 'Have you stopped beating your wife'? What will he answer?

VK RAMAN
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#7 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Music becomes sacred when it touches and heart and soul of singer and listener.

shankarank
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#8 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

I reference 3 posts starting with this one from Concert review section:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31679#p339752

shankarank
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#9 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 19 Aug 2018, 17:37 But when MLV sings 'கையில் காசில்லாதவன் கடவுளானாலும் கதவைச் சாத்தடி', it is not sacred !
Will you teach this to children? or will you teach this to an adolescent who is matured enough to handle padam/jAvaLi as they say? You can only teach this to a college nitwit who is doing liberal arts devoid of all sense of heritage for few years until he marries and settles down, and gets a child may be!

Hence it's sacredness is questionable!

Don't have to make sense of the text ourselves, but put it to the transmittability test by itself!

sureshvv
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#10 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 19 Aug 2018, 17:37 But when MLV sings 'கையில் காசில்லாதவன் கடவுளானாலும் கதவைச் சாத்தடி', it is not sacred !
It is the other side of "human existence" - a bitter truth that we don't like to admit to ourselves.

So sure it is sacred :D

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#11 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

ooooh so compassionate! Europe is figuring out , how to deal with the refugees. Reason Europe is entertaining is may be payoffs in some other energy deals or other geopolitics to the detriment of its own people.

Article 35A has shut the door for settlement to any Indian outside of Kashmir. When Kashmir pandits were evicted , we still shut the door on them not hearing their voice.

But Rohingyas are welcome , we didn't shut the door to them! If we later do, there is uproar!

What is the abstract human existence you are talking about? Something they teach in College or you read in post modern English honors! The world of nitwits!

You claimed Dharma favors some privileged sections (in the lounge!) The Dharma test is the one that is applied when transmission happens to next generation.

Ranganayaki
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#12 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Ranganayaki »

Post 11 is somehow about music being sacred?

We hold everything sacred. Even our cars and professional tools. Everything that brings us livelihood. All our food sources, all our sources and symbols of knowledge. That doesn’t mean we can’t sit in our cars or our tractors with shoes on. We use our sacred things appropriately. Let’s be reasonable and not destroy each other over the sacredness Of music. Music is probably more sacred to Nithyashree, tmk and others, than to us, for whom it is mere entertainment, and sometimes spiritual succor. So again, let’s not think too much of ourselves and look down our noses upon others.

shankarank
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#13 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

Oh so I became so understood suddenly! Like the childish attempt at moderation. Must read more carefully however! Already the thread went to sacredness of verses based on meaning, away from music being sacred. And why bring musicians when I have said nothing about them as regards their relation to their music. If you read me carefully I absolved the musicians themselves of any responsibility. I even respectfully tried to parse TMK's words. If any I countered the public pronouncements of TMK as regards what he regards classical music as, nothing to do with his personal disposition towards music.

If they could not have been diligent ( lets give it to them, they have to engage with world at large), our feedback is a valuable addition to the discourse.

As I made it clear the debate is about the specific "other" people in that Hindu news coverage.

And who are you to claim how they or anybody here regard music at a personal level. We are discussing conceptual ideas.

Coming back to that, the concept of sacredness of things is what is exactly derided as idolatry in Christianity and Islam. There is Rajiv's video about difference between holy and sacred. A mosque is a holy place, but not a sacred place.

As regards sacredness of various things, we do rituals to them , for e.g for a new car, but that should be taken as to the aspect of the car, not the metal itself. Car is not like a mURti which has daily pUja. So don't confuse.

uday_shankar
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#14 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 07:17but that should be taken as to the aspect of the car
Why car ? Everything in Indian culture is sacred only symbolically.

You can represent the "Sacred Complex" as :P:

Sacred = (Real)Sacred + j*(Imag)Sacred

The imaginary part, (Imag)Sacred is worshipped with great care and reverence.

The real part is abused, neglected, polluted, contaminated, killed, mutilated, etc...

Thus:

1) RIVERS, WATER BODIES !

We worship Ganga (all rivers) as the goddess and then pollute them in all manner possible: individual, collective, religious, secular, industrial, etc.. I suspect the manager of Mettur Chemicals or any of the other myriad polluting industries in Mettur offers daily prayers to the Kaveri in full Brahmin regalia, then changes to office clothes and orders the release of untreated pollutants into the river, since the inspector has been "gavunichu"fied for the next financial year. I am sure currently there is widespread rejoicing among the industries that dot the surrounding the Mettur Dam because for the next several weeks, perhaps months, untreated effluents can be released into the flood waters without easy detection by inimical forces.

2) SNAKES !

(Imag)Snake must be worshiped everywhere with prayers, offerings, etc... but (Real)Snake must be feared, detested, must be presumed to be an incredibly poisonous, devious, evil minded, slinky, slimy creature which must absolutely be killed on sight. This sentiment towards real snake is a point of unity between the "Abrahamic" and "Indic" cultures ! Except when it comes to tribals, who are not part of Indic culture anyway. A visit to a pristine tribal village on the edge of a forest is a refreshing experience. There is no fear of snakes, the women carry themselves with self-confidence, the whole place is spic and span, ....

3) BHOOMI !

The goddess Sita herself ! This one's the most abused... should we even start enumerating...

4) NADA !

Everything stems from Nada Brahmam, the supreme nada of the vedas, from whence flowed all music...The Thrimurthy sAmagAna NadopAsana Sabha is happy to announce a three day seminar on the theory and origin of nAdabrahmam, capped by a grand keyboard concert accompanied on the rhythm pad.

5) We can go on forever with this list, it gets really sad...

So maybe Indic notion of sacredness isn't that attractive to some ? A modern, liberal, eco friendly, spiritual, secular rethink takes care of the real parts much better... snakes are neither worshipped nor killed but treated with understanding and knowledge, women are neither worshipped nor raped but treated with respect as equal partners in the human enterprise, rivers are neither worshiped nor polluted but treated with respect and left unpolluted for posterity, there is constant introspection about waste, trash, plastic, etc... so the Bhoomi is treated with respect... musicians work with craftsmen for decades to eke out a better nAda from their instruments instead electronifying them.... etc etc etc

SrinathK
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#15 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by SrinathK »

It is the schisma of exporting all the sacredness of life to heaven that causes us to look down on the earth. We have exported everything we find good in human experience to heaven and god (human form, human relationships, human experiences, human personalities, human pets, human superheroes and what not have become 'divine' elsewhere) and then come up with religions that consolidates the illusion that the ultimate sacredness is to be found somewhere else in the far future.

In fact our gods share all our human fallibility to a great extent as well despite this, behaving essentially as mentally approved 'purified' extensions of ourselves beyond our perceived limitations. This is not to deny an aspect of spiritual experience, but when the mind tries to grab that it creates a concept and then builds fortifications of ignorance around that.

The oldest spiritual traditions always dealt with the rivers and the trees directly - it is only through the creation that one infers that there must be a creator. It was only later that the whole concept of anthropomorphic worship started. The reason for this is that as humans, we try to relate to that the way a human would do. In a way this may have started out as a realization that we necessary have to kill other creatures and use natural resources for our living, but it very quickly became something else.

One more reason for this are the widespread cultural influences of the religions and their followers that dismissed all concept of life here and now as 'pagan', instead creating a 'dvaita' between the Holy Creator up in the heavens and His 'unholy' creation, and try to create their concept of heaven on earth instead. In reality that itself is another kind of idolatory in its own right. It is said that God is greater than the universe, but sometimes greater still is the ignorance of his followers! :lol:

Every attempt at trying to create a utopia that ignores the reality of life, will fail for this reason.

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#16 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 00:47 ooooh so compassionate!
Being Sarcastic?
Europe is figuring out , how to deal with the refugees. Reason Europe is entertaining is may be payoffs in some other energy deals or other geopolitics to the detriment of its own people.

Article 35A has shut the door for settlement to any Indian outside of Kashmir. When Kashmir pandits were evicted , we still shut the door on them not hearing their voice.

But Rohingyas are welcome , we didn't shut the door to them! If we later do, there is uproar!
All seem to uphold the lyric that MLV sang.
What is the abstract human existence you are talking about?
The one I am going thru'. Nothing "abstract" about it. Incidentally, I don't remember mentioning the word.
Something they teach in College or you read in post modern English honors! The world of nitwits!
Neither of the above. Let us not wallow in that world.
You claimed Dharma favors some privileged sections (in the lounge!)
I may have. I may have claimed the opposite also. But only you can do both on the same post :D
Please provide full context and I will try to explain what I meant if not readily apparent.
The Dharma test is the one that is applied when transmission happens to next generation.
Huh?

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#17 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 13:34
1) RIVERS, WATER BODIES !

We worship Ganga (all rivers) as the goddess and then pollute them in all manner possible: individual, collective, religious, secular, industrial, etc.. I suspect the manager of Mettur Chemicals or any of the other myriad polluting industries in Mettur offers daily prayers to the Kaveri in full Brahmin regalia, then changes to office clothes and orders the release of untreated pollutants into the river, since the inspector has been "gavunichu"fied for the next financial year. I am sure currently there is widespread rejoicing among the industries that dot the surrounding the Mettur Dam because for the next several weeks, perhaps months, untreated effluents can be released into the flood waters without easy detection by inimical forces.
This video explains this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WofgUBKu1Q The colonizers taught us what is called humaneness! And all the soft skills. The result we lost all the fighting spirit - kshatriyata. We cannot blame them as well! At least we should have some sense that 'they taught this!' to awaken ourselves.

70 years of secular rule did not have the courage to challenge people disposing unburnt bodies into Ganga, because it made Hindu a religion!

It is left to NGO(s) and you know where that leads - naxalism and what not.

Rivers have been polluted, like in Hudson as well - by corporations who won their rights from courts. The fighting spirit of American protestantism took it up and made GE and others dredge and clean.

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#18 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 17:46 The colonizers taught us what is called humaneness! And all the soft skills. The result we lost all the fighting spirit - kshatriyata.
Not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek. Can't tell from here.

But it sure seems like you are grasping at straws!

shankarank
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#19 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

It is not tongue in cheek. They taught the humaneness with an intent to dhimmify us, so we meekly accept their authority! They needed that to be shown to them first!

And those who were raising the issue of polluted Ganga in the 80s in my locality were Hindu Munnani volunteers - albeit dialectically. Even that guy's sister was afraid the way they spoke!

She use to come to the Math tution class and converse with the teacher ( ayuyyO (OMG!) - see what all they are talking!)

All the religious people went about their lives!

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#20 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 17:46American protestantism took it up and made GE and others dredge and clean.
Bullshit. Pete Seeger, the driving force behind the Hudson clean up, along with his half- Japanese wife, Toshi, did not have any religious affiliation, and was hounded during the McCarthy era for un-American activities. Go read some Hudson valley history instead of creating a false narrative based on wishful thinking.

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#21 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 17:46It is left to NGO(s) and you know where that leads - naxalism and what not.
Huh ! That's a big jump... you must have crazed worldview and narrative for sure ! I don't know of any NGO that's involved with Naxalism, even remotely. Only the NGO's are doing anything on the ground, trying to bring awareness to people and helping solve real problems.

shankarank
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#22 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 18:33
shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 17:46American protestantism took it up and made GE and others dredge and clean.
Bullshit. Pete Seeger, the driving force behind the Hudson clean up, along with his half- Japanese wife, Toshi, did not have any religious affiliation, and was hounded during the McCarthy era for un-American activities. Go read some Hudson valley history instead of creating a false narrative based on wishful thinking.
SO you think the one driving force is enough? How will he get support? The protestents were simply religious? To study the cultural impact of American history, with only an affiliation to Church is another fallacy!

Mccarthyism had valid reasons by the way. It may have its excesses , but it was justified.

People ( not you!) justifying Dravidian counter veiling force should at least acknowledge that.
Last edited by shankarank on 21 Aug 2018, 19:37, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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#23 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 18:52
shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 17:46It is left to NGO(s) and you know where that leads - naxalism and what not.
Huh ! That's a big jump... you must have crazed worldview and narrative for sure ! I don't know of any NGO that's involved with Naxalism, even remotely. Only the NGO's are doing anything on the ground, trying to bring awareness to people and helping solve real problems.
You won't know it for sure. There is enough sophistry on the surface!

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#24 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 18:27 They taught the humaneness with an intent to dhimmify us, so we meekly accept their authority!
Amazed at how you make up stuff. We didn't rebel against them because it was to our advantage. They made much more sense and were more predictable than the majority of the rulers we had at that time.

uday_shankar
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#25 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

[
shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 19:00SO you think the one driving force is enough? How will he get support? The protestents were simply religious? To study the cultural impact of American history, with only an affiliation to Church is another fallacy!
I agree with that. I certainly don't think a driving force is enough. American people historically, have been very politically aware and were never mute spectators of their destiny the way Indians have been reduced to. And yes, America's driving force was largely protestant in the 19th and the first half of the 20th century, although Catholics have also managed to gain centerstage since the Kennedys and sundry supreme court justices and politicians since then.

However, the founding fathers themselves - certainly Washington, Franklin (also a Quaker), Jefferson, Madison, Tom Paine and others - were neither protestants nor Catholics. They were deists. Deism is a nice non-denominational faith, very transcendental and universal, with very "eastern" feel, for want of a better word. Certainly the founding fathers struggled with the moral dichotomies of slavery... although Washington dealt with it better than Jefferson, they certainly had a much more expansive worldview than the subsequent generation of "belief driven" Anglicans (Episcopelians), Calvinists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists and others who formed the backbone of 19th century and first half of 20th century American enterprise.

The so-called Unitarian Universalist Church, which is really not a "church" in the Christian sense, but a place where a free form spiritual enquiry is practiced, traces its lineage back to the deist beliefs of the founding fathers of America.

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#26 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 23:12 The so-called Unitarian Universalist Church, which is really not a "church" in the Christian sense, but a place where a free form spiritual enquiry is practiced, traces its lineage back to the deist beliefs of the founding fathers of America.
Yes. I see that. May be my terminology was wrong or misplaced. We hold our concerts in one such Church! Art of living workshops are given space there as well.
sureshvv wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 20:17 Amazed at how you make up stuff. We didn't rebel against them because it was to our advantage. They made much more sense and were more predictable than the majority of the rulers we had at that time.
In a different reading of history, you will see that the Maharajas were the ones who made the choice and forced to make the choice. And in an act of deception they were kept around to fool people as to who the real rulers were.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkCMHaLXgAU88jz.jpg:large - this was early 1800s in education.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkCNLXBXoAkMm8r.jpg:large

Your history reading is based on the wrong perception created by the second statistic! The second statistic is the creation of Caste inequality. And that is incidental. Other than the mylaporeans who remembers Alladi Krishnaswamy and VSS Sastri. No one! They had their role and even their English is an anathema today. They rose from very humble beginnings as children of priests , just like any other Indian.

That they rose as an incidental effect of British requiring to run their Admin, cannot be projected to mean Indian people accepted British rule as a better choice. That may be true in the case of Tipu Sultan! Oh he was a freedom fighter wasn't he? He didn't even rule long enough to know what vision of India he would have made. But we keep claiming he fought on our behalf.

If you read history with true Indian perspective, you will see that there was continuous resistance till 1857. There is a story that Muslims then implicated Brahmins as the cause of that mutiny and there was a backlash against them through all of Eastern India.

Even in a disarmed state in only 40 years, you had svAmi vivEkananda who started his resistance to recover the spiritual soul of India. Sri Aurobindo started his and that inspired many freedom fighters.

You know vAnchi maniyachi station?

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#27 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 19:00
Mccarthyism (...) was justified.
😳😳😶 WHAT is this foolishness??

SrinathK
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#28 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by SrinathK »

Ranganayaki wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 07:12
shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 19:00
Mccarthyism (...) was justified.
😳😳😶 WHAT is this foolishness??
Don't worry. None of us have ever understood either. Too many threads have become 'shankaranked' :)

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#29 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

Ranganayaki wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 07:12😳😳😶 WHAT is this foolishness??
:lol: :lol: :lol:

shankarank
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#30 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

Of late threads are also getting "Udhaychufied" before anything else further happens to them :P

Whats so shocking? Why do we need reductionism in rights? If they don't accept other core principles of a Republic , like right to liberty and property why do they need to be given free speech? They must be shut down!

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#31 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Anusha »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 13:34
You can represent the "Sacred Complex" as :P:

Sacred = (Real)Sacred + j*(Imag)Sacred
Uday,
I loved reading your post on the Sacred Complex. Such an elegant anchor line!
While your post is not really complex (you have clearly proved that the Real part = 0), I must admit that it gives me a real complex :).
Your 'rational' analysis coneys that - 'Irrational' are the ways of the human race, on the 'whole'.

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#32 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sankark »

Anusha wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 11:39
uday_shankar wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 13:34
You can represent the "Sacred Complex" as :P:

Sacred = (Real)Sacred + j*(Imag)Sacred
Uday,
I loved reading your post on the Sacred Complex. Such an elegant anchor line!
While your post is not really complex (you have clearly proved that the Real part = 0), I must admit that it gives me a real complex :).
Your 'rational' analysis coneys that - 'Irrational' are the ways of the human race, on the 'whole'.
Eventually all the things that are held sacred become scared of, and scarred by, those that hold them sacred :evil: :evil:

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#33 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

Anusha wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 11:39I must admit that it gives me a real complex :).
Your 'rational' analysis coneys that - 'Irrational' are the ways of the human race, on the 'whole'.
Lol.

I use the symbol j for sqrt(-1) after a lifetime spent doing EE... but really humor and truth lie in the symbol i that mathematicians and physicists use.

1) Wolfgang Pauli, brilliant Nobel prize winning physicist, and equally brilliant jokester, was a contemporary of a lesser known German experimental physicist (albeit a Nobel prize winner too, for designing the ion trap) Wolfgang Paul. Being the eternal jokester, Pauli was known to refer to Paul as "his real part".


2) What we think of as 'i' is always imaginary... it is the false ego which disappears the moment we try to pin it down. And you can do that only through self-realization :P

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#34 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by HarishankarK »

No. Not all music is sacred. Definitely songs like 'choli ke peeche kya hai' or kolaveri are also music but never ever are they sacred.
Carnatic music, bhajans etc are sacred. It totally depends on the purpose of the music.

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#35 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by Anusha »

uday_shankar wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 12:17
I use the symbol j for sqrt(-1) after a lifetime spent doing EE... but really humor and truth lie in the symbol i that mathematicians and physicists use.
Thanks for the explanation. I had assumed that j was a typo.

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#36 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

What he described there is the 2 dimensional cakra of samsara. We know that these things are sacred and must act in a way we transcend this cyclicality. But we act as if we want to remain here!

That is Real + j(imagined)! A two dimensional surface that has rotation as a phenomenon.

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#37 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 23:59May be my terminology was wrong or misplaced.
Keep in mind, it's not a matter of terminology. It is a deep seated misunderstanding to confuse the Unitarian "Church" and deism with protestant Christianity. To further draw conclusions based on equating it to "American protestantism" completes the nonsense (not accusing you or anyone of doing it). In the eyes of Protestants and Catholics alike, Unitarianism is a contemptible mishmash of pagan non-Christian ideas.
shankarank wrote: 21 Aug 2018, 23:59What he described there is the 2 dimensional cakra of samsara. We know that these things are sacred and must act in a way we transcend this cyclicality. But we act as if we want to remain here!
This kind of interpretation wasn't my intention, just to clarify. My intention was the straightforward one described by Anusha above... we neglect the real part completely while making a fetish out of the imaginary part.

The imaginary part is irrelevant. DhArmic action will automatically result if we focus on the real part.

DhArmic action doesn't need the guidance of Smrithis or Shrutis or the burden of a Rajiv Malhotra polemic or narrative.

It is not easy, but it's possible to open one's eyes and heart, look for the True and go get a dhArmic life...

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#38 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 10:35 All this comes to my mind when I hear anybody argue that India is a free country, he or she can sing anything and get away with it. The moment we sense the sacred in music, it is difficult to make it an instrument of protest, or political or social activism or worst, economic opportunism.
Do whatever the heck the street freedom given to you by the nitwitsm that goes for college education! And get lost! But just shut up about real people ( and their conflicts) who preserve and carry on sampradaya through many challenges!

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#39 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 09:35 My intention was the straightforward one described by Anusha above... we neglect the real part completely while making a fetish out of the imaginary part.
Yes the secular Sierra club will run a mill out of environmentalism and keep California spic and span. But across the Ocean you dump plastics and get a dump back and then dump it back into Ocean. So the pursuit of Secular thought has not gotten us anywhere!

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#40 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 09:42Yes the secular Sierra club
In your deserted and limited world view, Sierra Club represents the height of environmental action. You should go out and meet real people, away from the public eye, sometimes in it, who work deeply with such questions at all levels and walk the talk, without talking the walk.

And just to put it all into perspective:

McCarthyism - "justified" in some ways.

Bale bale.

Sierra Club - evil secular all bad

Bale bale.

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#41 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

uday_shankar wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 09:46 And just to put it into perspective:
McCarthyism - good in some ways
Sierra Club - evil secular all bad
There is something quintessentially Indian here. We always try very hard to find the silver-lining in the dark cloud and the smudge in the fresh clean linens.

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#42 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

Yup like the marxist , who flew to germany with a mac ( lined with silver - I mean only the color) to present how technology has caused all these issues!

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#43 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

You forgot the links :D

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#44 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 09:46 You should go out and meet real people, away from the public eye, sometimes in it, who work deeply with such questions at all levels and walk the talk, without talking the walk.
This is all knowledge and sense they learnt from natives who have been relegated to run Casinos. Whilst China agreed to become the dump yard after Maoist cultural revolution!

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#45 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 10:23 You forgot the links :D
He is home grown looks like: https://twitter.com/Karl_Maarx/status/9 ... 1191439362

However there is a another view that says Tech. And Automation will help their cause:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 04706.html

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#46 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by humdinger »

Well, this is what late Zahiruddin Khan Dagar seems to have written (source here):
"Dhrupad is a gift of Samaveda. This music emerges from sacred mantras of that holy scripture....you can not sepearate hindustani classical music from the worship of god."

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#47 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

They worship music truly as divine, the way they fall in love with the sound! If the term "God" helps express that I am fine! There is no other framework under which such beauty will pass on to the next Gen! Certain things have to be accepted as given and sacred and by experience one will get a sense why they are so.

That which stays is sampradaya - assuming people operated within certain principles of Dharma!

From a Darwinian perspective, all that happens is for Good is a circular statement. But in the realm of consciousness that only affirms the cyclical nature of reality.

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#48 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by HarishankarK »

humdinger wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 19:06 Well, this is what late Zahiruddin Khan Dagar seems to have written (source here):
"Dhrupad is a gift of Samaveda. This music emerges from sacred mantras of that holy scripture....you can not sepearate hindustani classical music from the worship of god."
Well said

We should all feel the same way about carnatic music also. Then only we can protect its divinity and sanctity.

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#49 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by shankarank »

humdinger wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 19:06 "Dhrupad is a gift of Samaveda. This music emerges from sacred mantras of that holy scripture....you can not sepearate hindustani classical music from the worship of god."
While the current dialectic demands that we trace the origin of something to something in order to prove continuity, authenticity, and a presumed ownership, it is not required to be so. This demand reflects the history centrism of the Western knowledge systems and their anthropology of connecting historical traits with one another.

If we link dhrupad to sAmavEda what do we link this one to: https://youtu.be/-tuWsN5yWG0?t=2116

If you think closely that is the discipline! Written notation again is today's demand ( or mid - SSI era demand shall we say!). The Siksha! And the mAtra Shuddham. Improvisation is left to Palghat MaNi IyervAl!

That concert is a must listen for anyone who wants to examine themselves to see if they appreciate true values of Carnatic Music.

We only know MSS, MMI and Dr BMK for their respective Srutis and voice tones and sometimes we are moved by their voice expression. Divinity goes with voice - Divine voice. We forget to notice how much mAtra Suddham goes with their rendition that adds to the experience of beauty as well!

When vEda is proclaimed to be apauruShEya ( authorless!) and anAdi (beginning less) , then tracing the origins of later developments to vEda is unvEdic in spirit! RSHi mUlam and nadi mUlam need not be enquired into. Such a requirement does not exist in the vEdic sphere of thought!

These are parallel or concomitant systems of values. If one is traceable to the other or where something is picked up is immaterial and suffice it to say even if they had independent beginnings each exemplifies the spirit of the other.

if a new system like what pANiNi devised ( based on what existed) with a rule generation , but respecting and not purging the old, then that is also vEdic.

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#50 Re: Is music sacred?

Post by sureshvv »

HarishankarK wrote: 24 Aug 2018, 04:47
humdinger wrote: 23 Aug 2018, 19:06 Well, this is what late Zahiruddin Khan Dagar seems to have written (source here):
"Dhrupad is a gift of Samaveda. This music emerges from sacred mantras of that holy scripture....you can not sepearate hindustani classical music from the worship of god."
Well said

We should all feel the same way about carnatic music also. Then only we can protect its divinity and sanctity.
Hope you noticed the fact that they carefully avoided mentioning a specific "God".

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