Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
thenpaanan
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#26 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by thenpaanan » 01 Mar 2019, 01:07

vgovindan wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 06:31
bhakti is generally understood as 'devotion to a particular deity'. It is true to some extent. The true bhakti arises after - as a result of - AtmAnubhav - Atma sAkshAtkAr. How to, and how not to read Kabir is explained in the video. This is true of all such persons who transcended 'words'.

https://youtu.be/a-kXsjHvmb8
Wonderful post and thoughts! I have made it a point to perform only in full understanding of the words of every composition I sing but not just the literal words but the spirit behind them.

For example, I took Shri gOvindan's translation of mOhana rAma (tyAgarAja) to heart and in the pallavi where the genius bard sings "mukhajita sOma" (whose face is more resplendent than the moon) I struggled for a long time with how to interpret that phrase in my singing. My current interpretation is that tyAgarAja is imagining himself playing peekaboo with a toddler rAma (thus "show me your face"). Of course there is no way to know if that was indeed what he was thinking -- it could well have been a filler phrase to take us from mOhana rAmA (O' enchanting rAmA) to the most important one that follows "muddugA palkuma" (come babble to me cutely). I prefer the former interpretation even if it is somewhat fanciful, because using that helps me get involved in the phrase more than otherwise. I believe tyAgarAja would have wanted us to do that -- to take small liberties if necessary to amplify the larger point of the song and not get necessarily stuck in the literal words, much like the speaker says in this video.

The downside is that most audiences are not interested in such things (in a recent performance at an ArAdhanai I was explaining the words as I understood them and at some point the organizer abruptly asked me if I could stop that and start singing -- which I did). But the great upside is that making the words your own transports you the singer/performer to a different realm of experience. If the audience doesn't get it, such a pity.

-Thenpaanan
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rshankar
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#27 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by rshankar » 01 Mar 2019, 01:23

thenpaanan wrote:
01 Mar 2019, 01:07
(in a recent performance at an ArAdhanai I was explaining the words as I understood them and at some point the organizer abruptly asked me if I could stop that and start singing -- which I did).
A thought that bubbled up unbidden when I read this: "kazhudaikku teriyumA...." :lol:
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RSR
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#28 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by RSR » 01 Mar 2019, 17:51

rshankar wrote:
01 Mar 2019, 01:23
thenpaanan wrote:
01 Mar 2019, 01:07
(in a recent performance at an ArAdhanai I was explaining the words as I understood them and at some point the organizer abruptly asked me if I could stop that and start singing -- which I did).
A thought that bubbled up unbidden when I read this: "kazhudaikku teriyumA...." :lol:
The very concept of classical devotional music, is true only for CM since 1400 ( say), Not applicable to HM during the last six centuries. Lyrics play very little part in classical HM. ( of serious nature). Maximum importance is given to ragam only.
---------------------------------
Happened to go though some posts in some other thread ( Subramanya Bharathi as composer). May I bring to your notice, a famous rendering of Barathy's 'chinnanchiru kiLiye kaNNamma'... by Smt.D.K.PattammaL?
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... -kannam-ma

https://youtu.be/WGk1nkqodf0
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vgovindan
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#29 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by vgovindan » 01 Mar 2019, 21:18

https://youtu.be/LdEyAdZm1PU

Whoever gave bhakti and music a religious colour, may take time to listen to this. India is thriving among these 'rustics'.

Music is not a media for demonstrating one's intellectualism - it is more of conviction.
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shankarank
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#30 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by shankarank » 02 Mar 2019, 04:33

We just getting done with "something is not music" discussion - or are we? That seems never ending :P . Now comes "music is NOT ...." .

Well well... try making them say music is not about rAgAs first! Lets see how far that goes!

Some seniors that I have interacted based on their current academic outlook, used to refer to certain genres as applied music. Like there are disciplines called applied science. So there is pure music which is theoretical and conformant and there are applied music like bhajans and even dance.

So now we have pure bhakti and then applied bhakti like religions and cults? :lol:
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vgovindan
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#31 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by vgovindan » 02 Mar 2019, 06:47

Shankarank,
By 'intellectualism', I did not mean 'rAga', but about the controversy surrounding CM - musicians and of couse rasikas giving it a religious colour. Music - as brought out by Kapil Tiwari in another video posted by me about 'De-colonisation of Indian mind', music belongs to 'madhyamA' (parA, paSyantI, madhyamA, vaikharI) stage - transcending -
rather preceding - word. It is a pure thought unadulterated with words. I do not know whether I have been able to convey what I feel - that's is disadvantage of language. But, then, how to convey thoughts without language? Probably, humans have to unlearn many of their abilities in order to achieve harmony. Again a verbiage?
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shankarank
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#32 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by shankarank » 02 Mar 2019, 08:28

I am not sure how you tie intellectualism in music to giving it a religious color. The former - intellectualism - I always associated with the claim of music aficionados , especially Carnatic music, that it's enjoyment demanded certain knowledge of it - whatever that means. What is this about knowing music is still not clear, as also what is music. They also mention sometimes the thing of growing up with it, but those who have grown up with it, acquired information about it incidentally. Not that, that drives their enjoyment.

So I am not yet into any deeper philosophical level ( all that has been dismissed as mumbo-jumbo!) , but taking cognizance of most common phenomena within Carnatic music as I see it being appreciated, along with my own experience.
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shankarank
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#33 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by shankarank » 02 Mar 2019, 09:17

Well on further thought, if you meant by intellectualism, the separation of "lyrics" - the "lyrical content" to which meaning is ascribed - and hence if it refers to deities it is deemed religious viz-a-viz , the music - as musical notes , i.e. the "right" frequencies of the sound, then that as I see it, is some shallowness, or unquestioning acceptance/consumption of some external narrative.

That is anything but intellectual!!

Even a cursory reading of a kAvya, like from kAlidAsa , where he says you cannot seperate vAk ( sound) , which is also in some form music, from it's meaning aRtha, gives the Indian narrative pretty clearly.

Or from tiruvalluvar who placed an young child's language as more sweeter than music produced from yAzh(vINA) or kuzhal (flute) , gives the metaphysics of language , from Ahem! , another unrelated independent civilization - was it ?,

There is a continuity between the two as well. The first talks of parents (jagatafpitarau), the second a child to say similar things!

A joke is in order : tamizh came from kumari kanDam - which is now in international waters and Sanskrit came from Central Asia - which is now outside Indian geography also! Both are outside languages - just get on with it folks!
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vgovindan
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#34 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by vgovindan » 05 Mar 2019, 09:32

https://youtu.be/9qxd_p1Vk4g

No formal music training, no paraphernalia of typical musical concert - just voice and bhAva. The listener may not understand a word, but he is moved.
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vgovindan
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#35 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by vgovindan » 12 Mar 2019, 23:11

https://youtu.be/QbxlYSg6F1E

Art is about transcending boundaries and structures, to feel free. One who would beg in the train - along with her guru - not for the sake of livelihood, but to understand the depth of music and words (and their purport).

Such a sagacious words at such a young age!
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vgovindan
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#36 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by vgovindan » 28 Mar 2019, 09:38

Music beyond enjoyment - music that could move mountains.

https://youtu.be/dxtgsq5oVy4
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Sivaramakrishnan
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#37 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by Sivaramakrishnan » 28 Mar 2019, 17:04

RSR wrote:
15 Jan 2019, 08:22
Asrtrology says that a person's life is decided by the planetary positions , ( and nothing can be done about it) . It is a sort of tyranny! ...........Though it puts fear in the minds of people ............., there is no place for God either in astrology or in cycle of birth theory. In a sense then, both are a-theist.
Sakalagrahaphala nInE SarasijAksha
The effects of planets could be overcome by the grace of Lord NarAyana? Does the PurandaradAsa kriti explain this?
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RSR
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#38 Re: Bhakti is THE source of Bhaavam

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 18:37

Sivaramakrishnan wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 17:04
RSR wrote:
15 Jan 2019, 08:22
Asrtrology says that a person's life is decided by the planetary positions , ( and nothing can be done about it) . It is a sort of tyranny! ...........Though it puts fear in the minds of people ............., there is no place for God either in astrology or in cycle of birth theory. In a sense then, both are a-theist.
Sakalagrahaphala nInE SarasijAksha
The effects of planets could be overcome by the grace of Lord NarAyana? Does the PurandaradAsa kriti explain this?
Yes, Sir. Exactly!
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