Perceived unmusicality of Carnatic kampita gamaka, hindustani meenD and Hindustani Gamak

[bhargavramks]

We have heard some saying that the Carnatic kampita gamaka sounds jarring for musically uninitiated and Hindustani musicians/Rasikas alike, especially in isolation without its context in a raga. However, I would like to say the same regarding some executions of meend in Hindustani khayal. One example I can remember is the meandering dhaivat of darbari raga, which sounds like it is off key. While I think that sruti alignment of dhrupad singers is near perfect during the unmetered alap, the hindustani gamak in the jhala part and during composition renditions sounds off key for me, like in this record here, http://www.parrikar.org/music/des/dagar_jaijaivanti.mp3 .

So what I wanted to ask is, how much of this perceived unmusicality is subjective and how much of it is objective? Is this musicality of gamaka or meend or gamak to be objectively analyzed only after immersing deeply in the respective musical form, say carnatic or khayal or dhrupad?

[shankarank]

You have to objectively factor in intention , before you subject it to test of musicality. There are fleeting occasions in quite a few songs where Dr BMK talks , instead of singing - like here:

https://youtu.be/Tvg8rxGdQx4?t=140

sakala SAstra - the ending "tra"!

But then the question of what is music has been objectively asked by experts who were published by MIT Press:

https://books.google.com/books?id=vYQEa ... &q&f=false

and they cited this, what they called as "extreme post modern example" in their opening paragraphs - John Cage's 4'33":

https://www.npr.org/2000/05/08/1073885/4-33

Also present are some vacationing members of the New York Philharmonic, looking to keep up with the antics of the new music renegades, and composer John Cage, who's premiering two new works. For the first, which would later become known as "Water Music," pianist David Tudor, a lifelong Cage collaborator, plays prepared piano, a duck call and a transistor radio. For the second, the provisionally entitled "Four Pieces," Tudor starts a stopwatch, sits down in front of the piano, closes the lid and begins a performance in which he never plays a note.

After 30 seconds of silence, Tudor resets the stopwatch and times another two minutes, 23 seconds of silence, then another one minute, 40 seconds of silence. But is it silence?

[shankarank]

Also here is a quote from T.V.G - I don't have the link to primary source - but I have read it and I searched and got this hit.

viewtopic.php?t=18622#p216463

Now in the context of south indian classical music - as it is known - Sri TVG got another opportunity to elaborate on it:

https://youtu.be/7_x8FeOmg_o?t=6722

Not plain notes - but pure notes! I guess that is clearly in the context of southern music!

[SrinathK]

So what I wanted to ask is, how much of this perceived unmusicality is subjective and how much of it is objective? Is this musicality of gamaka or meend or gamak to be objectively analyzed only after immersing deeply in the respective musical form, say carnatic or khayal or dhrupad?

Well, the answer to that is - listen to it for some time till things get into memory. If it stops sounding strange and then you can start appreciating the nuances of it, then it's a deal.

[shankarank]

Dr BMK talks , instead of singing - like here:
https://youtu.be/Tvg8rxGdQx4?t=140

By doing the high talk on the high note, he established the authority of SAstras and such without donning the angavastram!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Oh my Shankarank, !!!

That " thra " of BMK .. you have super sophisticated ear. Do you even listen to music anymore , any genre ?

[shankarank]

its a cold hard winter
water is still
ducks are not quaking
wind is still one day
and breezing hard the other
birds headed south
no music for souls
caged in homes
hearing John Cage's music
not just four minutes
not thirty three seconds
hours and hours on
sensitive to talking music
no talk about music
posting away in rasikas

[RSR]

@7 -> Really Good.