The very first time rAgAs were heard - asampURNa sampURNam

[shankarank]

Inductive reasoning leads us to the generalization that, asampURNa rAgAs form better progenitors of the concept of rAgA than the sampURNa mELAs.

AsampURna and sampURNA debate is stuck in religiosity of the two schools , what with SrI Musiri subrahmanya Iyer ( was uploaded to sangIta priyA) declaring in his first Lec Dem, where he spends much of the prefacing remarks on the dangers of having a Lec Dem, before opening up, that tyAgarAjarin matam vERu(his religion is different) and dIkshitarin matam vERu( the latter's religion is different) when it comes to rAgA system.

It need not be so.

A progenitor is not enough to be a container, but should provide a key as well. It is not enough to have raw material (hardware), but the specification or software as well.

SrI tyAgarAja's religion is sampURNa system - and that is why he chose quite an array of asampURNa and vakra sampURNA for his pancaratnams?


A note about why they may have been called ghana rAgAs : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32105&p=347993

The 61 rAgA mAlika of RamasvAmi dIkshitar starts with nATa rAgam - or so I am hearing.

The reason I think the asampURNa mELAs are better progenitors - not just as head of clan of rAgAs - but the concept of a rAga itself: they show how real rAgAs can be derived by showing a skip of a note here and there! They induct this concept, and by induction rAgAs can be born! Not that some parent rAgA captures the essence of it's children.

That is the software part!

[shankarank]

From: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32587&p=347752&hil ... ka#p347753

nAsAmaNi is the name of the rAga in the Dikshitar school (asampoorNa mElakarta) and it also uses phrases like S R3 S M2 P D2 N2 S also.

Discussed in the context of nAsikAbhUshaNi of tyAgarAjA, the mAravairi ramaNi begins from ma - ma-pa-ma-ga or something and vairi is taken as sa-R3-sa by traditional adherents ( may not be true of 20th/21st century popsters!). vivAdi is handled as asampURNa (wisely!) in tyAgarAja school as well - vAgadISvari included.

Must have just so happened dIkshitar wanted to begin down from sa and ascend up - SrI ramA sarasvati - SrI is sa-R3 a gamakAkshara! - he also does a sa-R3-sa-ma with a svarAkshara at "ma".

[shankarank]

As regards the so called sampURNA rAgAs that are the major rAgAs, there were never viewed as sequences, rather as cycles of 4ths or 5ths - you cannot get more asampURNA with jumps of several notes each step.

naTabhairavi is one such cycle R2 with fourths (each note goes a Madyamam up!) or D1 with fifths (pancamam). Except that if viewed in that mode, it can no longer sound distinct from bhairavi - QED. And somewhere at the tail of the fifths cycle D2 lurks just one step away.

There is something to rAgAms with RShabam with a matching daivatam in upper tetra-chord that is logistically suitable for a CM like treatment. May be the way phrases tend to develop.

All of the above, is probably why for naTAbhairavi , Prof TRS sings sa-ri-ga-ma-pa-da-ni-sa pADuvOM! - I guess

The cyclical argument is made to establish the status of kalyANi as a rAgam suitable for tAyA and Alapa by sakshat Prof SRJ - refuting any references to any old lakshaNas that might have it against this. Especially with Sa as the start of the cycle of fifths. So not too far fetched

That was in his Lec Dem at P.S Swamy Sabha ( I remember from introductory speech from the recording) which was either in sangItapriya or another public domain. I cannot get the link.

[shankarank]

This lecture by Dr. Hemalatha which pulled up in youtube ( I have not disabled tracking! and that has helped) discusses this issue in detail!

RAgalakshanamu of Sahaji.

Timeline:
https://youtu.be/o8Tld4G-BOU?t=3468

KalyANI - the good for nothing rAgA was actually mOhana kalyANI - only varjya svaras are specified - not aROhaNA and avarOhaNA - and the former can occur if need be in some fashion.

All of them are dESi rAgAs - tODi, kalyANI, kEdAra gauLa - meaning they came from North , even Persia.

[shankarank]

Sri RKSK on asampuRNA vs. sampURNa systems:

https://youtu.be/P7rVydY7Xqo?t=4492

rItigauLa of dikshitar where the reference to naTa bhairavi (nata bhairavE) demonstrates SrI dIkshitar's awareness of the other system.

But tyAgaraja has demonstrated more than just the awareness of the "other" system!

karaharapriyA and harikAmbOdhi - one of them , the former is a cycle that remains stable under jantA, dATTU prayOgams.

The second one had to be handled "taLukka" - carefully. About 10000 times in Mecca and surroundings - estimate , about 100-1000 times in Shamukananda hall - guess and in the initial years at least - couple of times actually in Waetjen hall and surroundings - one by SrI Nedunuri ( Sani tODi) and another by SrI R.K SrikanTan where RKSK played the violin. Both pazhutta vidvans!

The rAga is still a core-rasika affair! And unstable under too much transformation.

[shankarank]

That kalyANI that we heard : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32661&start=25#p348832

https://archive.org/details/VasudevayaniKalyani

employs lot more of asampURNam when compared to the popular version which only has few cursory ones like veDalina.

vArikuni is rgs, even the opening one vAsudEvayani (correct me if I misheard!) sounds like ni --> dropping to ni -G3 or ni-ma. naTanamu is gdpm etc. instead of mpdp in popular version.

SrI tyAgarAjA starts his nidhicAlA with a note of asampURNam as gdp!