Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

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thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 08 Nov 2019, 09:53 Just the awareness of syllables, and putting them to effect is not virtuosity or vyavahAram. Virtuosity to me is Jugals where UKS and Zakir duke it out. Otherwise any Carnatic singer is virtuosity filled for a Bhajan singer.
Again, I am not sure I understand all of your post. Let me put it this way. (Most of) Our kritis are essentially poems set to music, not random fragments of linguistic expression used to serve as a vehicle for the music (khayals give me that impression). Neravals should similarly be some melding of poetry and music -- there needs to be something from the words of the neraval line that adds to its musicality, whether it is the syllables, the semantic meaning, the context of the line etc.

I guess we are all making the point that the traditional Carnatic music of practice that we have received as our legacy does not emphasize that kind of neraval. Tradition certainly does not _prevent us_ from doing so, as evidenced by a few stalwarts like MDR, BMK, Lokanatha Sarma, etc who took it even further than the rest. But it is _not_ demanded either - even the great Ariyakudi seemed to use the neraval as a poor man's pallavi.

I agree with you that if we want neraval to stand out as a distinct musical construct beyond serving merely as a stopping point on the way to the much-awaited kalpanaswaram, we have to look at the younger generation -- TMK, RaGa, Ramakrishnan Murthy etc who are re-examining our established practices and our assumptions about what our audiences will tolerate.

-T

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

Your two assertions:

1. Neraval in carnatic idiom overlaps functionally with alapana
2. Alapana with meaningless syllables

reminded me of how we arrived at the TMK discourse.

Common narrative among musicians : rAgA is pradhanam in music

Musicologist serving as faculty of Univ. Of Madras: "The vAggEyakArAs created the uruppaDis(compositions) only to show case the rAga svarUpa (form of the rAgA)".

After all they learn composition after composition only to understand the rAgA is't it - so they can deliver a great Alapana one day!!

Instrumentalists of YACM era: Lyrics were used because there were no recording technology then, now that we can record, we really don't need them.

And most musicians believe internally ( I believe :lol: ) : "We are performing the uruppaDis (compositions) to take the rAgA svarUpam to the audience. Otherwise it is too darn difficult."

They throw in pAmara - panDita ranjakatvam in there. They forgot panDita may have roots in the old tamizh : panDu means old/archaic - they are protector of old knowledge - their duty is emphasized and not who they are.

Like the vAggEyakkaras if they were notationally literate would have preferred to notate the rAgA Alapanas?? Instead of making all these compositions? After all "music" was their "intent" wasn't it. They were like Indus Valleyers who had to put figurines in seals to stamp something as they were illiterate! The latters intent was not drawing. Or if they were technologically advanced they could have recorded it!

And for the rasikas , Alapana is too abstract, too complex for these simple minds so we have to sing these kritis!

This is what Anthropology has taught us!! All of these are condescending to our forbears as well as rasikas.

Now with your statements - we have come full circle - deja vu. You have attacked Alapana and taken us back to lyrics full of meaning. So are you proposing this out of concern for what would appeal to the trending rasikas - or something else fundamental to the musical system? If former, you are also condescending and you have not considered the musical system as a whole gamut.

When are we going to get back to considering all of these as sacred heritage , all in one whole?

Do we still continue to view the vaggEyakkArAs in their pigeon holes after they have passed? Don't we have a larger narrative of our own to view them?

And we then arrive at TMK discourse:
"Why can't they just treat this like a piece of art like how a painting is viewed?"

So there goes the painting of all paintings: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/arts ... wding.html :lol: . They are worried about the lack of viewership to the rest of the art collection and people leave miserable! :lol:

Then his own take on compositions went through several rehearsals , finally : Carnatic music is interplay of text, melody and rhythm.

He himself is muddled through this discourse and we are taking him as a serious questioner in this matter!

I don't think TMK is popular because he has made musical alterations. He is popular like many cine-singers were popular, as something else provided them a platform! They would be some unknown people otherwise.

As regards your mentions of Hindustani forms, sorry I cannot understand anything and I don't want to. Each musical system must be understood within it's own epistemology and pramANAs. We have no need to resort to alien concepts.

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

Shankarank

I have scrambled your order of points to address them better.
shankarank wrote: 10 Nov 2019, 20:43 Now with your statements - we have come full circle - deja vu. You have attacked Alapana and taken us back to lyrics full of meaning. So are you proposing this out of concern for what would appeal to the trending rasikas - or something else fundamental to the musical system? If former, you are also condescending and you have not considered the musical system as a whole gamut.
It is fair criticism that by merely suggesting it I might be agreeing with it. But my concern is not intended as condescension towards the rasikas or the art form, but merely that our kutcheri system seems to be such -- both performers and their audiences are in this together and so we cannot get out of it without some strong centrifugal forces such as TMK. As I have noted before, what appears on stage is not always representative of what happens in homes and jam sessions where I have heard plenty of elaborate and unhurried neravals.

Perhaps the real issue is that in order to appreciate the kind of music that TMK is providing or MDR provided (where, in Sriram Parashuram's words, you make the kriti your own and present it that way, rather than merely as a recitation of received pATAntaram) you need close attention/connection between singer and listener. That kind of music needs silence and equipoise to appreciate. Now that we have good studio recordings and more intimate sabha settings this kind of music will find its rightful place again.

(Just as a complete aside, just because I can, I want to give an example of that kind of attention to detail -- in the commemoration speeches on Veena S Balachandar, movie maker Mani Ratnam reminisced that when he and SB's son would come home from a late movie, they would take extreme care to open the rusty iron gate without making a sound. Why? not because they were afraid of getting caught, but because in that still midnight air, one could hear the "exhilarating" sound of SB practicing veena!).
shankarank wrote: 10 Nov 2019, 20:43 Your two assertions:

1. Neraval in carnatic idiom overlaps functionally with alapana
2. Alapana with meaningless syllables

reminded me of how we arrived at the TMK discourse.

Common narrative among musicians : rAgA is pradhanam in music

Musicologist serving as faculty of Univ. Of Madras: "The vAggEyakArAs created the uruppaDis(compositions) only to show case the rAga svarUpa (form of the rAgA)".

After all they learn composition after composition only to understand the rAgA is't it - so they can deliver a great Alapana one day!!

Instrumentalists of YACM era: Lyrics were used because there were no recording technology then, now that we can record, we really don't need them.

And most musicians believe internally ( I believe :lol: ) : "We are performing the uruppaDis (compositions) to take the rAgA svarUpam to the audience. Otherwise it is too darn difficult."
Carnatic music evolves because its practitioners and appreciators evolve. The tug of war between people who want to keep to a certain way of doing things because "that is how it was done" and those who question these and ask "why not something else" is what makes the art form alive. Years ago, even I thought along the lines you have traced above. Now I think differently.
shankarank wrote: 10 Nov 2019, 20:43 And for the rasikas , Alapana is too abstract, too complex for these simple minds so we have to sing these kritis!
It pains me to admit that what you say is, in fact, an opinion held by many musicians. But the feelings are mutual. Much as some musicians look down on some listeners, listeners are also found to despise some musicians.
shankarank wrote: 10 Nov 2019, 20:43 Then [TMK's] own take on compositions went through several rehearsals , finally : Carnatic music is interplay of text, melody and rhythm.

He himself is muddled through this discourse and we are taking him as a serious questioner in this matter!
I would be quite happy to listen to someone who does a better job on this front. TMK's the one who is aggressively fronting the style, so you could say he is the torch bearer. Whether he is good or not is a separate question. I do hope there are others who are trying/doing the same or similar things. I have not come across too many.
shankarank wrote: 10 Nov 2019, 20:43 I don't think TMK is popular because he has made musical alterations. He is popular like many cine-singers were popular, as something else provided them a platform! They would be some unknown people otherwise.
I guess we will have to disagree on this point.

-T

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Thenpaanan wrote:
''Carnatic music evolves because its practitioners and appreciators evolve.''

Evolution in classical arts must be refinement (not innovation or experimentation). Study the music of D K Pattammal.

ajaysimha
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by ajaysimha »

after singing the complete krithi
if one exhibits manodharmam aspects like (nerval-kalpanaswaram-sarvalaghu swaras-ragamalika swaras) will not spoil the mood of the song.
else will make a listener very much disconnected with the bhavam of krithi

rshankar
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by rshankar »

ajaysimha wrote: 13 Nov 2019, 20:19 after singing the complete krithi
if one exhibits manodharmam aspects like (nerval-kalpanaswaram-sarvalaghu swaras-ragamalika swaras) will not spoil the mood of the song.
else will make a listener very much disconnected with the bhavam of krithi
I think this is a very personal space: I for one do not agree with your assessment - for me, when the nereval and ks flow through the song, it seems organic and integral to the composition - look at how Sri SSI and Smt. MSS handled this aspect in so many fantastic renditions. I did not feel the bhAva of the composition was compromised in any way when they did that. OTOH, when some artists finish a kRti and then start the neveral or ks, it gives me a "oops, I forgot something, let me catch up" feeling.

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

ajaysimha wrote: 13 Nov 2019, 20:19 after singing the complete krithi
if one exhibits manodharmam aspects like (nerval-kalpanaswaram-sarvalaghu swaras-ragamalika swaras) will not spoil the mood of the song.
else will make a listener very much disconnected with the bhavam of krithi
Indeed, some prominent vidwAns held this very view. For example, vidwAn B Rajam Iyer told me very strongly that when rendering a kriti, one must adhere strictly to the pATAntaram and not invent new sangatis. He would say one's own creativity should be exclusively reserved for the manOdharma parts -- AlApanA, neraval, and kalpanAswaram. Even though I was quite in his thrall at the time, I remember wondering if any other vidwAn follows this rule strictly. Perhaps the performers who depended strongly on their pinpAttu (backup singers, typically students) or who were duos had to follow this rule to avoid losing synchronization. Even so, there were some musicians of yore who did not have this constraint and yet of whom it could be said that no matter which concert you picked in their career, the same song will be sung identically every time (MSS was one such). And there were others whose no two renderings of the same song would be identical. Whichever philosophy one leans towards, the mere diversity of opinion/practice is good in my mind.

As for bhAvam of kritis, I personally don't think bhAvam (as contained in the words of the kriti) was a big deal with most traditional performers. The way many kritis were rendered in recordings and are rendered today (and considered "classical rendition") are evidence of this. This hankering after meaning of the words in the kriti is a relatively new fashion, which I happen to like.

-t

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 13 Nov 2019, 18:46 Thenpaanan wrote:
''Carnatic music evolves because its practitioners and appreciators evolve.''

Evolution in classical arts must be refinement (not innovation or experimentation). Study the music of D K Pattammal.
But DKP represents one thread in this vast tapestry we call Carnatic Music. Without innovation where will tyAgarAja have gone?

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

The standard format followed by doyens like Smt.DKP and Smt.MS , was ( in that order) , a well-known varnam , one kriti with aalaapanai, built in niraval of some lines of the kriti, , and swarams ( if chittaswaram- better), a few more kritis- including some Tamil kritis especially of Neelakanta Sivan and Papanasam Sivan, an RTP ( preferably using one ragam only ) , sometimes a swarajati' , a kriti with improvised swarams , some lighter songs with emphasis on bakthi bhaavam (in other languages like Tamil, often preceded with viruttham) , a good ragamalikaa in Tamil, some jaavaLi/ tillaanaa with good lyrics, some bajans in hindi, marathi and finally, a 'mangalam, in the traditional ragams like madhyamaavathi,/ surutti, / sowraashtram. '. Most often, giving importance to Kritis and Keertams of the saintly composers, and in well-known ragams . Inroducing just one or two deserving and rarely heard creation in a rare ragam , from not-so-well-known composers , if deserving such inclusion- not just for novelty but to make it known to discerning rasikas. The best of specialities of the style of Maharajapuram, Musiri, Mani Iyer and Semmangudi . What is wanting in this pattern, to need modification and 'improvement' ? Nothing,

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

thenpaanan wrote: 14 Nov 2019, 11:05 But DKP represents one thread in this vast tapestry we call Carnatic Music. Without innovation where will tyAgarAja have gone?
'Tyagaraja and Innovation' could be an interesting topic for deliberation, that's all.

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

RSR wrote: 14 Nov 2019, 11:28 The standard format followed by doyens like Smt.DKP and Smt.MS , was ( in that order) , a well-known varnam , one kriti with aalaapanai, built in niraval of some lines of the kriti, , and swarams ( if chittaswaram- better), a few more kritis- including some Tamil kritis especially of Neelakanta Sivan and Papanasam Sivan, an RTP ( preferably using one ragam only ) , sometimes a swarajati' , a kriti with improvised swarams , some lighter songs with emphasis on bakthi bhaavam (in other languages like Tamil, often preceded with viruttham) , a good ragamalikaa in Tamil, some jaavaLi/ tillaanaa with good lyrics, some bajans in hindi, marathi and finally, a 'mangalam, in the traditional ragams like madhyamaavathi,/ surutti, / sowraashtram. '. Most often, giving importance to Kritis and Keertams of the saintly composers, and in well-known ragams . Inroducing just one or two deserving and rarely heard creation in a rare ragam , from not-so-well-known composers , if deserving such inclusion- not just for novelty but to make it known to discerning rasikas. The best of specialities of the style of Maharajapuram, Musiri, Mani Iyer and Semmangudi .
Isn't this list itself a result of evolution over some decades of experimentation by many artists? It is not like this list was created in one shot by ARI and dropped on us. Why should the experimenting stop now?
RSR wrote: 14 Nov 2019, 11:28 What is wanting in this pattern, to need modification and 'improvement' ? Nothing,
Many things have changed since then -- technology, time span of concerts, exposure, the exclusivity of the art to certain communities of interest, etc. But most importantly audiences have changed. First, they have lot more choices now for music and entertainment than ever before. Second, I think the question that is more pertinent is what can we take out of these old templates. It is simultaneously too much and too little for the modern attention deficit ridden listeners. Finally, even this list above came about because audiences of the 1920s-30s were no longer willing to listen to the old pallavi-heavy concerts that ran for four hours but had only a few ragas. So if it was ok for ARI to create the modern kutcheri format for those generations, why not extend the same privilege/courtesy/collaboration to modern listeners? After all, art is a two-way compact between the artist and the rasika.

-T

Nick H
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Nick H »

Innovation yesterday is fine; innovation the day before yesterday is even better, Innovation today is an unacceptable breach of tradition. Until tomorrow, when it will be fine.

rajeshnat
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by rajeshnat »

Nick H wrote: 14 Nov 2019, 19:44 Innovation yesterday is fine; innovation the day before yesterday is even better, Innovation today is an unacceptable breach of tradition. Until tomorrow, when it will be fine.
Moresing vidwan London Shri Nick Hayssen you are rocking .

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

True that the audience has changed from what it was in the decades of the likes of Patnam Subramanya Iyer / Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan and his brother and Subbarama Dikshitar. ( 1850-1900) The Sivans sang for zamindars, pontiffs, rich mercantile class patrons and yet also incidentally for not so-rich but culturally well-equipped middle-class people. and even in free temple concerts. The change occurred from around 1920. and became more oriented towards middle-class .
It is nearly a century now. Technology has advanced much. and enables the gems of the past to be preserved and shared widely at zero cost . After all, CM of the Tanjore delta is only 400 years old.
I can do no better than to quote a wonderful portion of Smt.MS presidential address in Music academy .
கோவிலில் பூஜை செய்யும் அர்ச்சகர் ,உண்மையான பக்தியோடு செய்தால் விசேஷம். அவர் பக்தியில்லாமல் பூஜை செய்தாலும், ஆலயத்துக்கு வருகின்றவர்கள் ஆண்டவனை பக்தியுடன் வணங்கி போவார்கள். ... அர்ச்சகருக்கு பக்தி இருந்தால், சேவார்த்திகளிடமும் அது பாய்ந்து பிரதிபலிக்கும். ரசிகர்கள் தாமாகவே பக்தியுடன் வந்தாலும் , பாடகர் பக்தியில் ஊறினால், ஸதஸும் ,பக்தியில் மேலும் ஈடுபடும். பாடுபவர் மனம் பரமனிடம் ஒன்றினால் ,கேட்போர் மனமும் தானே ஒன்றும்". It is about our perception of the aims of CM. According to her address, our tradition is NOT to use CM as just another art form but as a means of self-realization, , an easy path which according to the Sage of Kanchi whom she quotes, available for both the singer and the listener.
https://mssgems.blogspot.com/2019/08/sm ... ademy.html
----------
It is no longer necessary to be physically present in a concert. Live steaming and recording are available. Technological advance and change in the spiritual and cultural level of the audience should not be used to kill the finest heritage but for sharing it most widely.
A westerner speaks his mind here.
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... -westerner
In what way are we going to 'improve'? Are we really equipped? Do we have a clear goal and are we really convinced that we are contributing to taking our cultural heritage forward? The only way is to share through the web. Do we not regret the lack of response for Nagaswaram , just because it is not so very suitable to concert platform but more for temple-processions?
Unless we reconsider our hasty changes in CM concert format, I am afraid that within a decade or two, CM itself will die.

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 12 Nov 2019, 02:19 As I have noted before, what appears on stage is not always representative of what happens in homes and jam sessions where I have heard plenty of elaborate and unhurried neravals.
Well there is a difference between freewheeling conversation on a tea table and a formal speech. Or posts in this forum vs. a book. One has to respect sadas. Not like this: https://youtu.be/-_6zvmxD1b4?t=570 - it sounds like he forgot gItArthamu ;) . He sits in many curated stages, but so hard to "curate" the verses?
thenpaanan wrote: 12 Nov 2019, 02:19 That kind of music needs silence and equipoise to appreciate. Now that we have good studio recordings and more intimate sabha settings this kind of music will find its rightful place again.
Yup we have more curated settings to experience not so curated music ! :lol: . From the golden era we had people like Musiri who rendered bhava sangItam. SSI for all his rakaLai in presentation, was later considered bhava musician. May be successors lacked the stage opportunities - the word goes SSI was so fond of singing, that even if he wanted to refuse , offers came at him :lol:
thenpaanan wrote: 12 Nov 2019, 02:19 The tug of war between people who want to keep to a certain way of doing things because "that is how it was done" and those who question these and ask "why not something else" is what makes the art form alive. Years ago, even I thought along the lines you have traced above. Now I think differently.
The current anxiety to keep things the same is nothing to do with sampradaya debate internally within the Carnatic music community. Now there is a different larger reason for keeping things the same way. But "the same way" here is a more macroscopic than some nitty gritty details. The whole spirit of the system is being questioned. So much of discussion above is about the format of a kutcheri. I don't think that is the essence of it. A new format has to emerge from conviction and sadhakam, more organically, than a Frankfurt leftist style of critical questioning.

The "same way" you refer to is actually the sowkya sangeetham of Semmangudi variety that has been dominant for many decades now all across Carnatic music. Which is also what you are defending? I don't understand what is new. T M Krishna has lung power , so he can stretch, otherwise it is the same thing. And you are equating his slowness with MDR slowness. Let me tell you SSI school cannot produce an MDR - not anything close. And I did note - his Sishya Vignesh Easwar has more Shuddha in his syllable / intonation combo. TMK rambles there a bit. His Akara Shuddha in the context of sAhitya sangeetham is questionable. That was TMK 1.0 - now some of it may still be seen in TMK 2.0 , but TMK 2.0 has stretched itself into an "art" presentation, so people outside of CM can zoom in and see what was so not clear with madyamakAla sowkya sangeetham. Those issues became moot. That's it.

Now we have reduced svarams to this superficial view:
Sachi_R wrote: 06 Feb 2019, 20:57 And swaras have the crowd appeal of mathematical forms, percussion, the dialogue between voice and instrument, the tapering off into a crescendo, and the resultant BIG applause.
We have forgotten people like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNLDQ2ofl7w And I am not complaining about why this particular vidvan never became popular. But this type of music really never took off in the early days of YACM. Araikal / Veesam (Grand ma mesaures for 1/8th and 1/16th) vidvan that he is , he emotes in the 1/8th and 1/16th space - that is a compliment in nindanai form if you will. He is a blend of I guess SSI and more of TNS style. But such things worked only for the original vidvan and not afterwards.

There was even a rumble in TNS school with a vidvan going through trials and tribulations ( some of us know!) and he had to forget all what he learned it seems and build it again. Except that it was an intra-ghetto conversation ( Uhum!) with a TV Channel interview at best. It didn't bubble up the media scale and lacked the political sauce of TMK!

In fact it is a miracle that we have a successor to some major vidvans. KVN to ARI ( if we can call him that!) and TVS to MMI ( again if we can call him that). My mentor in rasikatvam once mentioned TVS lacked that "control" of MMI. But many others don't have good succession. Chembai did not have any. KJY was not exactly that, and Jayan / Vijayan brothers - the younger one , IIRC once gave a recital in a small town Ohio, the organizers couldn't even provide a violin to accompany, and worse the Mridangist finished on the first drTam and the artist showed him palm up for the second. GNB bhANi is touted as a wide influence, but there have been one unsuccessful successor and other one declared "no good" right in this forum.

Story short : sowkya sangitham is safe. There is now no , and there has never been, a threat to it.

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

At the end , even the sowkya sangeetham became no good. The aficionados took a dim view of rasikas , lamenting that the post main tukkaDas were drawing more appreciation.

If you say music was suffering because people rendered pAThAntarams and stuck to format, it seems rasikas were suffering through the music to listen to tail end items. It is like they were jobless Indian test cricket watchers of Gavaskar kaTTai (defense) , who occasionally get a Vishy shot in the form Mathematical sequences in a drawn match.

So the tail end items were touching the soul and this exercise of saukyam music stretched, is an attempt to touch the soul huh?

TMK's last visit through the NA Sabhadom, included it seems some admonition on clapping and then explicit statements on how he will not sing any tukkaDa. He just wanted to give it to the rasikas :lol:

The members of the musical citadel it seems have a prescriptive view of how the music should be appreciated as well ;)

Only now the music should not be prescribed !

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 11:19
Story short : sowkya sangitham is safe. There is now no , and there has never been, a threat to it.
Agreed. Saying "sowkya sangeetham" is under threat is like saying _good eating_ is under threat. It is not possible. Generations before us have had their notion of good eating and generations after us will have notions of good eating (social circumstances permitting). The content may change and esthetics will change for sure but every generation has its own notion of good eating or sowkya sangeetham. I am sure the music that our forebears enjoyed in the 15th century Southern India bears only a passing resemblance to what we are enjoying today but each has its own place in its own context. Nothing is absolute. I see each generation as a bridge that passes on its experience and insights of Carnatic music to the next generation in the hope, but not the guarantee, that newcomers may appreciate and profit by it.

-T

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 11:19
The current anxiety to keep things the same is nothing to do with sampradaya debate internally within the Carnatic music community. Now there is a different larger reason for keeping things the same way. But "the same way" here is a more macroscopic than some nitty gritty details. The whole spirit of the system is being questioned. So much of discussion above is about the format of a kutcheri. I don't think that is the essence of it. A new format has to emerge from conviction and sadhakam, more organically, than a Frankfurt leftist style of critical questioning.
But the spirit of the system does get questioned from time to time in various forms. At some point the prevalent "formal" (as distinct from "classical" which typically refers to a historical period) music of Southern India was taken over by the largely Marathi-inspired paradigm with its jaunty beats and exuberant singing that we call Carnatic music today. I am sure there were people then who wrung their hands over the takeover of the musical system by these upstarts. The pace of change might have been slower and the conversations might have been elitist then as now, but we cannot deny that the music went through a deep transformation (much of it adding new things, but I am sure some old things were lost in the process too). That transformation changed the musical paradigm profoundly, and perhaps brought it from an esoteric form (obscure ragas in complex talams) to relatively easy-to-grasp form that captured the essence of the previous musical insights (simple devotional keertanas in vernacular languages set in common ragas with a simple beat that anyone could learn). I don't really know this, it is just my guess. If you permit me to speculate some more, I suspect there were people then who thought the music was going through some "vulgarization" even then, what with everyone humming classical tunes on the streets of Tiruvarur! A second transformation happened in the 20th century in the format of presentation that completed that transformation so more and more lay audiences (who came to sabhas or sat outside, like the rickshaw puller who was a Madurai Mani fan) could appreciate it. Again, the music as practiced changed to suite the needs of the new presentation format. And, of course, there were people who bemoaned the loss of the "pure" music to these mass appeal "sabha kutcheris". We are perhaps witnessing yet another transformation in the making that is broadening the reach to even more people, beyond religious and philosophical boundaries (who knows, perhaps even linguistic). And we are bemoaning the loss of old values. :D But who are we to question the conviction or saadhakam of these new presenters? We can dislike what they have to offer or put up a competing presentation, but to challenge their conviction or motive is to cast aspersion without reason on their artistic integrity, which is not right. They are not being critics merely for the sake of it. They are actually doing things.
shankarank wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 11:19 T M Krishna has lung power , so he can stretch, otherwise it is the same thing. And you are equating his slowness with MDR slowness. Let me tell you SSI school cannot produce an MDR - not anything close. And I did note - his Sishya Vignesh Easwar has more Shuddha in his syllable / intonation combo. TMK rambles there a bit. His Akara Shuddha in the context of sAhitya sangeetham is questionable. That was TMK 1.0 - now some of it may still be seen in TMK 2.0 , but TMK 2.0 has stretched itself into an "art" presentation, so people outside of CM can zoom in and see what was so not clear with madyamakAla sowkya sangeetham. Those issues became moot. That's it.
I do not recall equating anything. Just noticing the similarity of pace and the attention to splitting of words. MDR was a unique outlier in that regard, and I noticed that TMK in the current generation is paying more attention than most. But that is not to say that he is all perfect. For whatever reason, I am seeing more and more young singers enunciating the words more clearly than previous generations, which is a good trend in my mind. I never understood vidwans of yore who would seemingly mumble and mangle words for no apparent reason except theatrical effect.
shankarank wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 11:19 We have forgotten people like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNLDQ2ofl7w
That is some fine singing. I was not aware of this vidwan until now. Thanks for posting.
shankarank wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 11:19 In fact it is a miracle that we have a successor to some major vidvans. KVN to ARI ( if we can call him that!) and TVS to MMI ( again if we can call him that). My mentor in rasikatvam once mentioned TVS lacked that "control" of MMI. But many others don't have good succession. Chembai did not have any. KJY was not exactly that, and Jayan / Vijayan brothers - the younger one , IIRC once gave a recital in a small town Ohio, the organizers couldn't even provide a violin to accompany, and worse the Mridangist finished on the first drTam and the artist showed him palm up for the second. GNB bhANi is touted as a wide influence, but there have been one unsuccessful successor and other one declared "no good" right in this forum.
I don't think this "succession" really ever worked. The Carnatic idiom does not work for mere imitators. All this pedigree business simply exists for discussions and criticisms, in reality no one sings exactly like their guru.

-T

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 20 Nov 2019, 01:17 That transformation changed the musical paradigm profoundly, and perhaps brought it from an esoteric form (obscure ragas in complex talams) to relatively easy-to-grasp form that captured the essence of the previous musical insights (simple devotional keertanas in vernacular languages set in common ragas with a simple beat that anyone could learn).
This is where we under estimate the soundness of the later tALA system. Their concern shifted from investing too much technical energy into rhythmic forms to making it second nature, not easy, so music can shift to a different dimension. If you read the thread "Kriyas Angas vs lyrical structure" here : viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17780&start=50, I discussed how a certain tALA fits the sAhitya better. There, the canda tALAm invests too much focus on keeping the sequence of candas employed, whereas an appropriate tALam from the modern system allows for an MDR-ish drunken man's walk about and around the kriyas and melodic extensions around the same in the process. And your favorite tone emission! :)

But canda tALAm has been learnt by ordinary women learning under Late Sri Thirupugazh maNi Raghavan - I listened to recently in a village. It is not a question of which is easier to learn. A student can labor through it and master either one. It is a question of which will allow master pieces like tiruppugazh to come on stage in No 3 spot, more often, and create effect for a "professional" concert musician, who should not be burdened with unusual technicalities. Most musicians adhere to tradition and render them in canda tALA, which relegates tiruppugazh to later part of the concert, removing itself from heavy laya to heavy rhythm. And they cannot add manOdharma to the sAhitya rendering.

A thematic presentation, or a person specializing in that aspect, can occasionally do a simhanandana tALam or a complex canda tALam - no issues. I want an accommodation for a garden variety concert also to handle such items.
thenpaanan wrote: 20 Nov 2019, 01:17 If you permit me to speculate some more, I suspect there were people then who thought the music was going through some "vulgarization" even then, what with everyone humming classical tunes on the streets of Tiruvarur!
I don't know how we came to ascribe such motives to people in the remote past. Even if true, their intent was to preserve the good. Similarly now we cite, the Mylapore women gurus who persevere to preserve their pATantarams as the issue! If you ask them, nobody has followed their ideal, in the concert circuit, even in the last 10 decades. But they also misunderstand their importance a bit. The "pAtantaram" they preserve is for that guru - Sishya conversation and people must learn through that right?

But in our enlightened archaeological zeal we try to look for written manuscripts and that "original" tune from the composers, short circuiting , people in the "now" who have devoted their life to music.

But that is where the philosophical view of the past raises us "now" in the present to a higher ethic. "All said and done they regarded music as sacred" - that stand takes us forward. It is evident that a music that wants to build on the past should view the past with a philosophical eye, neither positive (blindly adoring) nor negative ( looking for problems to justify whatever now) and nor neutral (passive).

Secondly it is natural that a music that inherently seeks to provide continuity of tradition, examines the past first through immediate preceptors , and not digging around as to how Sri tyAgarAja might have originally sung this or that.
thenpaanan wrote: 20 Nov 2019, 01:17 For whatever reason, I am seeing more and more young singers enunciating the words more clearly than previous generations, which is a good trend in my mind. I never understood vidwans of yore who would seemingly mumble and mangle words for no apparent reason except theatrical effect.
This is a reductionist view. What you refer to theatrical effect is music. You seem to bring in some remote notion of what is music. Secondly even today, while the youngsters may have a clearer presentation, but as a formal language grammar goes, they pronounce a ga or a da or a pa or a Sa wrong especially if they are tamizh. Similarly for vidvans with mother tongue other than tamizh while rendering tamizh.

Perfecting pronunciation , or even other aspects of musical technicalities, is the vidvan's burden to resolve in private with their Guru or saha vidvans. But on stage when they sing a sAhitya, sAhitya is music as well, and it's language is NOT a personal property of somebody whose Mother tongue it is! It is the property of the sangIta sampradAya merged as one.

I guess we never got to hear the clarity of vidvans of yore that much, in their young age when they had all dexterity in their palate and tooth intact and not chewing Betel leaves. They all came to perform music after they were 40-ish?? Life after 40 is changed - philosophical :lol:
thenpaanan wrote: 20 Nov 2019, 01:17 And, of course, there were people who bemoaned the loss of the "pure" music to these mass appeal "sabha kutcheris". We are perhaps witnessing yet another transformation in the making that is broadening the reach to even more people, beyond religious and philosophical boundaries (who knows, perhaps even linguistic). And we are bemoaning the loss of old values.
Well philosophy is not the preserve of some isolated set of people, it is everywhere. Your justice system quotes it regularly , in India though from Greek and Latin ;). Your laws are based on it. Any musical system how much ever it purports to be a renegade challenger to established practice, has to seek an higher ethic. This is especially true of a system that by (unwritten, but understood) charter wants to be continuing a tradition. Tradition cannot mean sticking to dogmas. There is no religion here. There is no transformation. It is rather continuation.

Now as regards the old values, old values went through their own confusion. It seems MMI would not sing grahabalamEmi, because he believed in graha balam. But that is a question, SrI tyAgarAja goes through in his ruminations. Why it should be brought into mix with one's own practice? SrI tyAgarAja is not the first one, SrI PurandaradAsa says the same, and Appar in his kOLARu patigam says the same. People recite the last one to get over the same.

Same goes for nidhi cAla sukhamA? The literacy drive, had literally read all of it, from TSP's book and argues. It is like many of us, learning from kONAr notes for our tamizh. Our teacher used to get incensed :lol:

The sAhitya is sacred. Whatever it means. I'd rather would not delve into meaning so much, even if it is my language , as we seem to miss the point. So a musician mis-pronouncing it, is not an issue also :D

People should not put themselves as arbiters of truth. People here have handled contradictions more easily than this. Gandhian confusion I suppose.
Last edited by shankarank on 24 Nov 2019, 09:51, edited 2 times in total.

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@thenpaanan
1) We are not talking about Music in general. but only about Carnatic music. in this thread, I presume.

2) Within our own country, we have three systems of classical music.
a) Hindusthani music
b) Carnatic music
c) pre- 1000 AD , Tamil music.

3) Carnatic music as exemplified by Saint poets Purandaradasa (1500 AS ) to the Trinity ( 1800....), and a number of composers in between, like son of Annamacharya ( a contemporary of Purandara dasa), Badrachalam Ramadasa, Naraayana Theertha, , Oothukkadu Venkata kavi, Sadasiva Brammendram, Tamil Moovar, Gopalakrishna Barathy, Swathi ThiryunaaL, . , on closer examination of their lyrics in composition, are definitely creating their keertans and kritis in Bakthi tradition.
This is the main stream of Carnatic classical music.
All of them were well-versed in theories of music. and other orthodox tradions as well as puraNaas.
The dance music tradition, of Srungara baavam may be a curse of
big and small royal courts and meant for cheap titillation of the patrons. This might have been a sub-stream even in ancient days as in Silappathikaaram. While Ilango adikal, talks about the details of dance and music of those days, it is equally worth noting that Madhavi was a courtesan. This vulgarization of music continued even in the days of Nayak and Maratta rulers of Tanjore. SSP records about Kshethragya visit and performance in Maratta court.
Compare the pristine purity of temple music of Nagaswaram, and VeeNa, just a century bacjk, with the 'record dance ' in country side of Tamilnad. today.
If an artiste is all that keen about avoiding the Devotional tradition of Carnatic music, he/she would better switch over to Hindusthani classical music but it is not all that easy as singing some ditties like 'chalamelara,' and . . HM needs great voice culture and I wonder if it can be learned by the 'skype', generation. The Gharana system in HM is very demanding and even more of gurukula tradition over a minimum of ten years.
And why not try to learn Western Classical music? Even more demanding form of 'pure music'.
For the hippie generation, CM is easiest to corrupt and play for the gallery not here, not even in Europe, but in the lands of M$ ( do not read it as MS).
Some of the great Film music directors like CRamachandra ( compare his Hamsadhvani 'woh chand jahaan' in Sarada, with the stereotyped Vathaapi Ganapathim. or Smt MS rendition of 'aruL purivaay karunaikkadale' in the same ragam lyrics by Suddhananda Barathi. ), Sachin Dev Burman, Madan Mohan , Roshan and even Shankar-Jaikishan, gave us at least 100 great songs sung by Lata Mangeshkar's heavenly voice, all the tunes being based on classical HM ragas.
That is 'innovation' for improvement. for the 'change for change' crowd.
==========================================
For a really scholarly blog on the roots of Thyagaraja Swami's music,
read
https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/02/22/s ... iii-music/
----------------------------
Give close attention to the part Nama Siddhanta
25-3 to 28.
----------------------------------------

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

There you go! That post above is perfect example of everything that has gone wrong! The bhakti in the compositions are cited. It is hard to get an idea of for example: what tyAgarajA's Bhakti means. Unless we live like him, the same way. OK lets look into the "lyrics". The upama kaLidAsasya he is : he compared it to a samrajya. Now for us it may be easy to find out what samrajya means. Actually that is tough too, but the former is too tough.

Apart from that , whatever else stated in the above post is the worst the colonial education and his reading list have done. I am fortunate that I have not read all of that and not thinking like he does.
RSR wrote: 24 Nov 2019, 09:34 For the hippie generation, CM is easiest to corrupt and play for the gallery not here, not even in Europe, but in the lands of M$ ( do not read it as MS).
Except for some 4 major centers, most others could at one time pay just about the same or even less than the Plane ticket that got them to the venue. No Sir, we did not shower them with much, even what their non-demanding music training deserved. If some decent compensation is being provided, it may be very recent in the last 5 years or so after social media explosion, that too not with ticket sales. The music associations look for donors and commercial sponsors to make up for deficit. Even the lesser compensation allowed many of them to re-floor or whitewash their house at best.

There are no mainstream Carnatic singers within U.S that can command any decent audience in a professional setting, in spite of all the skype and hype. They perform in a temple or small informal venues. Very few that are professional operate from Chennai actually. And it is not easy to become one contrary to what you say. Serious pursuants do go and stay in Chennai with the Gurus or near there during Summer.

Many musicians from India and accompanists included make their money by teaching or helping with ArangETrams. For a recent Mridangam ArangETram, a reputed musician got 5 figures for singing, about 10 times what a Junior musician might get for a concert in a mid-tier city.

The gallery you mention gets filled for a very few brand names, who also have made it to the top not so easily!

The musicians may be making better income in India and their U.S tours may be due to a continuing memory from some earlier times, when things were not good in India.

And finally don't tell me that Hindustani music ( or even Western classical) is non-devotional. You have no right to. Your Hinduism is not my Hinduism or your English is not mine!

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

RSR wrote: 24 Nov 2019, 09:34 @thenpaanan
1) We are not talking about Music in general. but only about Carnatic music. in this thread, I presume.

2) Within our own country, we have three systems of classical music.
a) Hindusthani music
b) Carnatic music
c) pre- 1000 AD , Tamil music.

3) Carnatic music as exemplified by Saint poets Purandaradasa (1500 AS ) to the Trinity ( 1800....), and a number of composers in between, like son of Annamacharya ( a contemporary of Purandara dasa), Badrachalam Ramadasa, Naraayana Theertha, , Oothukkadu Venkata kavi, Sadasiva Brammendram, Tamil Moovar, Gopalakrishna Barathy, Swathi ThiryunaaL, . , on closer examination of their lyrics in composition, are definitely creating their keertans and kritis in Bakthi tradition.
This is the main stream of Carnatic classical music.
All of them were well-versed in theories of music. and other orthodox tradions as well as puraNaas.
Indeed, we are talking about Carnatic music and we are talking about the mainstream Carnatic music (I am aware of only one particularly strong tradition that is allied to Carnatic but separate from it which is the bhajana sampradAya. Are there others?).

I had not thought of this earlier but your post raised this question in my mind -- is Carnatic music in the service of bhakti or does it have its own standing? I see your answer above to this question as an emphatic yes to the former. You seem to be saying that the predominant (if not exclusive) purpose of mainstream Carnatic music is to support or to provide a vehicle of expression for bhakti. In my experience a lot many Carnatic rasikas hold this view but there are many more who are ambivalent about it. Is it possible that for at least some of the composers we revere today, this was merely the best "game in town". That is to say, they were musicians first and foremost, and merely chose to express within the idiom of the day, which happened to this bhakti-laden worship-focused musical idiom that had evolved from the prabandhas of yore.

As an aside, the acceptance of "secular" compositions such as padams and jAvaLis as well as the occasional (and extremely rare) composition that is purely philosophical, as mainstream (meaning singable in concerts) somewhat undercuts this position. You may argue that this is only a "sub-stream" (via "vulgarization" as you say later in the post), nevertheless its presence cannot be ignored. Only over time will we know whether the addition of secular themes is a huge positive or merely a sidenote in the history of our music. As an example, when the bhakti movement pioneers (e.g. Gyaaneshwar) in what is now Maharashtra sought to use the vernacular Marathi instead of Sanskrit in their heartfelt devotional outpourings, there was a lot of complaint from the existing mainstream purveyors of the religion of "vulgarization" of the noble worship practice . Pretty soon after that the Marathi bhakti movement exploded in its expressive power in not only in language but also in music, and left its opponents far behind. We Carnatic musicians are musical descendants of those pioneers. My point is simply that what we consider mainstream today was once avant garde and so by the same token what we consider outliers today may end up defining the music in the future.

-T

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

RSR wrote: 24 Nov 2019, 09:34 @thenpaanan

If an artiste is all that keen about avoiding the Devotional tradition of Carnatic music, he/she would better switch over to Hindusthani classical music but it is not all that easy as singing some ditties like 'chalamelara,' and....
This is not done. Whatever one can say about liking or disliking specific trends in music, it is in bad taste and even inappropriate to say that someone should take up something else instead simply because we don't like what they are doing. We can stand our ground and defend the tradition but telling them to take their talent elsewhere is out of bounds.

-T

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@73
@thenpaanan
Not at all. It is an insult to the great CM composers to say that they chose carnatic music, simply as a 'popular medium of their times'. Not so. Kindly see my website at
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic.
Show me a single CM composer, who did not compose in the Devotional spirit.

Thyagaraja Swami himself reprimanded his disciples, if any of them sang pieces like padams, jaavaLis and Tillanaas.( even if the 'pretended' theme was 'bakthi' !)

'Bakthi' theme becomes explicit, only in vocal music. but not in instrumental CM. We have ample scope in CM for things like Raga Alaapanai, swarams, etc and RTP . Let the anti-bakthi-CM vocalists then avoid singing any such kritis. In that case, they may have to set to music perumaL-murugas', songs ( read it as 'modern variants' of Vishnu and subramanya!), by themselves and go round the world as 'revolutionary' vocalists, disowning their tradition.

I am specifically having in mind TNR Pillai's 'jaanaki ramaNaa' . Actually, it was through that rendering in Nagaswaram, I came to know of the song and later through MaNi Iyer and Smt.DKP.

However, the catch is that unless I had heard those vocal renderings, I would not be able to sing that delectable song in my mind. Not that I know much about the theme or lyrical excellence(?)


I have consistently held the view in my posts, that CM is not necessarily tied to the lyrics/ theme at all, but nevertheless, without a lyric and its vocal rendition, it cannot remain in our mind.

And if lyrics are essential, let them be of such nature which cleanses our mind from base thoughts.


May be the reason why Annamayya's major part of the compositions, being of rather 'libidinous' nature, were frowned at and perhaps knowingly locked up in a cellar.!


I am sure that before 2040, CM as it is practiced today will totally vanish along with their 'kutchery' pattern and cine music as in hindi films will take over.

For, if a vocalist, so much disowns the root of CM compositions, he must have the Intellectual integrity to totally avoid singing any kriti even remotely based on Bakthi sampradhayam. What else remains then of CM, except the vulgarity of Court music , whatever be the language. Kutcherys then will have cine music of romantic theme only. and even filmy dances!

Dont we see madonnas and pop music culture in Western World almost totally eclipsing the Western Classical music,with all that glorious tradition of giants, ( mostly contemporaries of the Trinity). ?

The same fate awaits CM unless, we speak against the false prophets in no uncertain terms.

False prophets came with the slogan of Equality and against idol worship. There is absolutely nothing in the message of lippies ( left-posing-hippies) that has not been taught by the Dasa saahithyams.

It was to counter that our saints and com,posers wanted to open the eyes of the people to our Upanishadic tradition but common people did not know sanskrit. That is how the vernacular languages
became the medium of their message.

Great Exponents ( vocal) of HM , like BadeGulam Alikhan ,so much worshipped by CM musicians of the past like GNB , ...concentrated on Ragam exposition only. and even if they sang on romantic themes, they had tremendous poetic excellence.

May be, going back to Ritualism, Tantric cult and Sanskrit is a throwback.

To each, his taste.
Bye!

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

All the categories used in the above post #74 - typical of colonial scholarship, exactly how the colonials saw native societies. So much is talked about objectification of the female gender, by feminists. This is objectification of an entire culture, civilization.

This is what goes on in the form of connoisseur-ing of "arts".

I will turn the gaze now:

In this new "process" of viewing the "arts" , the viewer is like a colonial aggressor viewing the native society as a thing of art for his personal "secular" pleasure! The male aspect is separated and is crass and raw! And there is no masculinity even in it, it is worse than anything you can find in a living experience. We cannot even cite animals in this comparison, that would an insult to them. This is a corpse!

And now the "arts" become the objectified reality or illusion whatever they might want to refer to it. We heard it is an illusion (Ahem!) , I guess what is reality then? Some hard stone?

Whereas the philosophical view engenders the presence of gambhIram/naLinam both at the same time in the sangItam.

Lets take janaki ramaNa , how rakta naLina daLa is rendered. When it is rendered matter of fact with 3 offset, the saukyam and naLinam in it expresses the feminine grace. When it is rendered with odukkam it expresses the majesty of a king or queen - you might call it masculine expression. So both are expressed in equal measure. Any rasanubhava that deepens the devotion happens in this setting of creativity. And presence of both is managala kara and auspicious and sacred!

Now do we know how SrI tyAgaraja sang this? Actually does that matter? His work is based on the same philosophy with which the sampradaya develops it. After their passing it is the property of the sampradAyam!

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic/ - such composers ( like Kshetragnya) do not fall within the main stream Carnatic music .
We know about SrI tyAgarAja and the like by people in the tradition who transmitted the glory to us. One such person is Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar ( knows as RRI in the forum). Those fond of reading should read his preface to the kriti maNi mAlai. "karpagamenatagum" ( like kalpaka vriksha) is how he holds all the compositions and he specifically enjoins students to learn kshEtragna padams.

If there is no value to the words of our preceptors , there is no value to anything and there is no sampradAya. If such things are so bad, would people like him talk in such terms. The evidence of RRI's greatness is starring in front of us as we flip through pages, heck we don't even need to read it. My teacher advised, there is no point, you cannot sing from it!


Not that we need to agree with him 100%. But we should argue based on the right standing and pramaNAs , not with Marxist notions ( the libraries only brain!) and colonial historical methods. The man did not even travel anywhere , only went to the nearest library all life and exchanged letters with few intellects in Europe! Does it matter which century SrI tyAgaraja lived? Or how he actually sang Janaki RamaNa.

I bet you, if may be Rajarattinam Pillai did not do that odukkam, the vocalists would not know that it can be done! Now get over all this instrumental/vocal business!

Reading, literary criticism, scholarship - yuck! pATTA patti paDikkirangaLAME :P :lol:

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@75
------
Totally irrelevant , prejudiced and confused and rambling barrage of verbosity , lacking focus.
---------------------------------
( where is Marxism in 4Carnaticmusic site?....except to jaundiced 'neo-colonial', eyes?) . Sri.RangaRamanuja Iengar, would have rebuked for he loved and taught English Literature too.
--------------------------------------------
I have already read his daughter's ( a vaiNika herself), reminiscences and tribute to her father in the following links.
( I am giving the links for the benefit of rasikas here, who might be following this thread.)
THE RANGARAMANUJA AYYANGAR SAGA - PART 1
- By Padma Varadan

http://carnatica.net/tribute/rra1.htm
introductory article.. Must read.

http://carnatica.net/tribute/rra2.htm
The role of Vina Dhanammal in Rangaramanuja Ayyangar's life
-----------------------------------------------------
http://carnatica.net/tribute/rra3.htm
The Publishing Career begins
----------------------------------------------------
http://carnatica.net/tribute/rra4.htm
The American Odyssey
---------------------------------------------------
http://carnatica.net/tribute/rra5.htm
The Parent
and details of his publications in chronological order.
=====================================
Landmarks in RRA's publishing career

1934 - Papanasam Sivan's Keertanamalai, Part 1: 100 songs notated in detail with notes on Raga lakshana as rendered by Sivan himself.

1941 - Purandaramanimalai, Part 1: 100 Purandaradasa's padams notated and published for the first time on behalf of the redoubted duo Lalitangi and her daugther, M L Vasantakumari.

1947 - Kritimanimalai, Part 1: Launched at a function in Madras with 100 kritis of Tyagaraja with detailed notation, biography and annotations to coincide with Tyagaraja's birth centenary.

1948-1950 - Kritimanimalai, Parts 2 and 3: Released in similar format to include more compositions of Tyagaraja and in addition, Part 4 with select compositions of Muthuswami Dikshitar, Syama Sastri and Kshetragna padams.

1952-1954 - Kritimanimalai, Parts 5 and 6: Published to include more of Muthuswami Dikshitar's kritis and Syama Sastri and other post-Tyagaraja period composers including some Tamil Padams, Tillanas and Javalis respectively.

1962: Composing tunes for, editing and publishing Harikeertans of Swami Suddhananda Bharati.

1962 - Kritimanimalai, Parts 1 to 4, Tamil, over 3000pp, hardback: Magnum opus revised, enlarged and regrouped into four huge volumes comprising 1500 compositions in all of the Trinity and miscellaneous composers.

For further details about the publications, contact: Vipanchi Cultural Trust, 20, Kasturi Buildings, J Tata Road, Churchgate, Mumbai 400 020. Telephone: 022 283 3041

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

" The Man did not travel".... I suppose, Marx is being referred to. To answer such 'benighted' lines, will turn this discussion , inevitably into political theory and history. Not in this forum for CM.
=========================================
Shyama Sastry never felt comfortable to leave his temple.
"
""40.1. Sri Tyagaraja was born in Thiruvarur, a small town in Tanjavuru District. While he was still a very young boy, his family moved into a house on the Tirumanjana Street, at Thiruvaiyaru (about 50 KMs away) that was gifted by the King of Tanjavuru. Sri Tyagaraja lived the rest of his life in that house.
Thiruvaiyaru is just about 13 KMs from Tanjavuru. He moved about, all his life, in the Thiruvaiyaru-Tanjavuru region. He did not travel outside of that limited area until he was about seventy-two years of age.
How his first and the only travel outside that region came about is rather interesting.
Thyagaraja Swami did not travel much outside his district even.
He was invited by his 'manasa guru', at Kanchipuram. which he could not ignore. For more details, read
https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/02/22/s ... nchipuram/
Last edited by RSR on 03 Dec 2019, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

Sharing a fine article from Dr.Pasupathy's blog
https://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2019/10/1373-204.html
( in tamil)

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 02 Dec 2019, 13:17 where is Marxism in 4Carnaticmusic site?....except to jaundiced 'neo-colonial', eyes?
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic/ However, mere lyrics cannot mean Music. Classical music is essentially a matter of Ragam . Secondly of Layam or TaLam. and only finally on theme and Lyrics.
When somebody else like you say "Classical music is essentially a matter of rAgam", I cannot but read a bit of "religion is opiate of the masses", it is the rAgam that appeals to emotion after all - so what appeals to masses is the correct description. You see Marxism is religion and got a lot of believers - and the term "mass" along with "masses", it stole it from somewhere religious :lol: . Well Marxism is game OK in this forum as that is in secular bucket, but beyond that it is not - Uhum! elsewhere!

When Carnatic scholars study/discuss , they often complain about the predominance of compositions , even amidst the real history of carnatic music as we know it from it's inception with Ariyakudi, began with compositions, i.e. compositions have always been part of it from the very beginning!

From their stern belief that it is rAgam that after all creates emotional appeal and should appeal universally, they were shocked to find listeners nodding their heads to lot of other things , including gait and flow. Their beliefs challenged, they sought to now classify according to their whims as to what is entertainment/commercial/pays tickets and what is substantive music.

All of this flows from how the intellect developed in the colonial/post colonial era, and Marxist thought is an undercurrent that cannot be missed.

They are unable to fathom that humans can have experiences in other dimensions, that are equally valid and have well defined pramANAs, specifications (grammar) and transcendence.

"Mere lyrics cannot mean Music" - that is in English or some other language that does not have candas in it's basic construction. An English composition has to be contrived!

Secondly when you say tALA, for rAgam you should say arOha-avarOha. Equivalent of rAgam is layam. Equivalent of Sruti is kAlA pramANam.

Lets just admit it - we go by how we judge others. We refuse to make all aspects ( beyond rAga) first class citizens of the music when the evidence is staring at us.
thenpaanan wrote: 28 Nov 2019, 00:49 is Carnatic music in the service of bhakti or does it have its own standing?
Hello! When a vidvan/vidushi trained in Guru parampara visits your city, you are the one to come and honor them with Bhakti - not personally to them - but to the system that created them. Who are they to service your bhakti! AvAlavatu onakku bhakti uNDakkaradAvadu.

Anda mariyAdai irundAl taan enda jAtikkaranum sangItam kETTuralAmE! adu illennAlatAn kETka muDiyala?
(if only people learnt that respect, they could simply listen to this damn music irrespective of Caste and creed! They lost it and hence they cannot listen - do they need to know a damn thing about it?).

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@79
And Ranga Ramanuja Iyengar , was also a teacher of History besides English Literature....
Did you read the tamil article from Dr.Pasupathy's blog, cited above? Please do. It answers many of your pet themes.
To make my convictions absolutely clear, here they are.being reiterated.
1) Whether CM or HM, ragam is the primary element in classical music. That explains, how prior to 1900, a really talented musician was judged by his mettle in raga elaboration.
2) Where is the question of Layam in Allapanai? it is definitely secondary. Pure viruttham singing by Smt.MS also is not at all dependent on layam. Layam occurs only in lyrical compositions.
and RTP.
3) From my personal experience and as I understand from that of hundreds of CM practitioners and 'rasikas', it is not for Lyrical content that the music of trinity is liked and worshiped. Most of the vocalists and 'rasikas' know very little Telugu and less of Sanskrit. How can they, then appreciate the lyrics? Their reverence is for the musical composition. Sometimes, it is better not to understand the language of the lyrics. When we understand the language, the meaning of the lyrics and any absence of literary excellence , may even make us detest the musical excellence. As the singer does not know much about the language, it is only very likely that words are butchered, as is the common complaint of native Telugu speakers about the rendering by musicians of Tamilnadu. In a way, their complaint is valid but it loses meaning when the same kriti is rendered as Instrumental music.
4) For reasons already mentioned by me, CM is heavily lyric oriented. Unfortunately, though all the three of the Trinity knew Tamil, for reasons best known to them, they chose to use Telugu and Sanskrit. If only, they had used their scholarship, in creating all the songs in Tamil( after all they lived in the heart of Tamilnad), it would have been most natural .
5) Any way, since Lyrics are essential for the message they wanted to convey, the meaning and social import of those lyrics assume great importance.
The message of all the CM composers is this. Assume that a foreigner is reading the translation of the lyrics of all the cm composers, what would strike him as evident is the unified theme of devotion to deity and surrender to the devotional way of life.
Nothing can be farther from their intent as using it for dance.
almost invariably, based on Srungaara theme.
Most of our composers were saints and sanyasins.
I need not know, the meaning of 'jaanaki ramaNaa' kriti. to love its musical beauty .
No harm however in learning the meaning. But life is short and there are so many other things nice to learn in life.. I suppose, no one feels dejected for not knowing Greek and Latin. We are not and cannot be a William Jones. A decent use of English Language, in communicating our ideas, clearly and to the point, without using silly smileys and horrible colloquial tamil transliteration , is expected in a forum like this.
---------------
As I should not misuse this forum for any posts except on CM and related topics, I am just giving a link to a page which will give you an idea of what Marx, Marxism and its impact means.
https://sites.google.com/site/rsrpages/

Take your time to read all the material in that page.
I stoutly refuse to engage in any discussion with you on this theme.
---------------------------------------------------
I suggest that you open a personal blog to give vent to your venom.
I will then reply to you in that blog.
Not here.

Nick H
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 10:20 When somebody else like you say "Classical music is essentially a matter of rAgam", I cannot but read a bit of "religion is opiate of the masses ... ... ...
These words don't belong on the same page, let alone the same sentence.

How many times have we discussed here, under various heads, how to make carnatic music more popular, ie, get bigger, younger audiences and greater support?

How many times has it been said that classical music is not and never will be a pursuit of masses. Serious arts of all kinds in all cultures are not mass-appeal stuff, they are elite, minority interests. Whether that is intrinsic or engineered by said elites is debatable, perhaps.

By the way, in England at least, you won't find masses in the masses any longer. The masses have gone off that opiate.

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 13:43 Serious arts of all kinds in all cultures are not mass-appeal stuff, they are elite, minority interests.
There seems to be a mass appeal stuff going on even amidst the serious stuff! Masses need not be all people out there , it seems. A representative sample is enough! - which exists in popular CM concerts going by the view of many inside CM'ers.

It could have an elite connection because of patronage required, since serious stuff requires serious effort - I am talking even in the old ages - not the sabha/ticket patronage of 1920(s) and later. But musicians themselves have lived in Penury somehow and pursued the art!
Nick H wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 13:43 Whether that is intrinsic or engineered by said elites is debatable, perhaps.
A newspaper from England is certainly pushing the argument!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tus-symbol
The thinking is that homeless people in doorways disperse if you play Vivaldi loud enough
The philosopher and composer Theodor Adorno wrote: “Art keeps itself alive through its social force of resistance; unless it reifies itself, it becomes a commodity.”
Yup art needs to be in the hands of reality that is JNU protests - rather than catering to elite interests of all things!

Some Philosophy there yeah? ;)

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@39
@arasi
I was listening to Papanasam Sivan's richly descriptive taNigai vaLar SaravaNabhavA yesterday, and how the neraval pleased! tuLLi viLaiyADi varum tOgai mayil mIdERi.
( it should be 'mele' instead of midRi)
துள்ளி விளையாடிவரும்
தோகை மயில் மேலே
வள்ளியுடன் பெய்வளை
தெய்வானை இரு பாலே

அள்ளி இரு கண் பருகும்
அன்பர் புகழ் வேளே
வெள்ளிமலை நாதன் தரு
வேல் கொள் பெருமானே

This is a classic rendering by Smt.D,.K.PattmmAaL ( A six-minute 78 rpm record from my collection- a treasure).
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... abava-todi
( full lyrics given there - thanks to Dr.Pasupathy..Though in Tamil,none too easy to understand!)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=en9FZrBmjgk
If youtube does not play, we can download the song from the mp4 there.

Nick H
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 04 Dec 2019, 08:25
Nick H wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 13:43 Serious arts of all kinds in all cultures are not mass-appeal stuff, they are elite, minority interests.
There seems to be a mass appeal stuff going on even amidst the serious stuff! Masses need not be all people out there , it seems. A representative sample is enough! - which exists in popular CM concerts going by the view of many inside CM'ers.
Well, yes, there will always be populist shows in this and other forms of serious art in the world. Maybe they are as much for those elitists of which we speak to pretend they are not elitists! I'm an art/music elitist! In carnatic music, I tend towards the Harimau camp. I tend to avoid his "sheeple" concerts: I love the music, not the "sociological research."

But there will be fusion; there will be the "light classical;" There will be the inclusion of drum machines and keyboards in an attempt to persuade the young that the music might have something to offer them (and those performances won't all be be bad either! And they may succeed in actually creating a desire for more in those who didn't previously realise their latent elitism!

What is the relevance of this "sociology," which intrudes into a rasikas thread from time to time? Just... I bet those nods to the masses will have kalpanaswaras, because they are more "entertaining." And less neraval, because it isn't.
It could have an elite connection because of patronage required, since serious stuff requires serious effort - I am talking even in the old ages - not the sabha/ticket patronage of 1920(s) and later. But musicians themselves have lived in Penury somehow and pursued the art!
I lived next door to a busker, for a while, in London. No, he wasn't scruffy, homeless, etc: he had his own house, wife and son. Playing classical violin on the street paid his mortgage!
Nick H wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 13:43 Whether that is intrinsic or engineered by said elites is debatable, perhaps.
The thinking is that homeless people in doorways disperse if you play Vivaldi loud enough
Play anything loud enough and they would go away. But there is so much that is horrible in the whole idea, and so little that surprises me re how my mother country creates poverty and treats those poor. My recent experience: more beggars on the streets of London than the streets of Chennai.

But coming back to the world of rasikas and the musical, rather than political, aspects of this discussion...

I don't see people twiddling their thumbs or paying more attention to their mobiles during the neravals in a never mind, kalpanaswara will come soon way. Nor do I attend many concerts in which neraval is absent, and I certainly do attend those in which it is sung for more than one or two songs. Whilst one or more extensive neravals per concert may be limited to specialists, its demise, if that is suggested, is exaggerated.

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 04 Dec 2019, 20:05 What is the relevance of this "sociology," which intrudes into a rasikas thread from time to time?
Sociology entered when definitive statements about "why CM wastes time with meaningless syllables in svaras?" followed by "music has nothing to do with lyrics" kind of observations were made. These are straight out of sociology / literature taught in universities or if you will the William Jones philology of the orientals. The very theory of language needs challenged!

Some times meaning arises from svara prastAra - dA-sa-ri ramaNavibho kalayAmi ( Dr BMK) - nI-nagumOmu another one!

Very recently ShivarAtri akhanDam : sa-dA-nI -pAda-bhaktiyil karai kaNDavan by Bharat Sundar. The neraval there was good too!

And there are svara sAhityas too! All of this possible, because down to single letters carry meaning in Sanskrit also. Underlying import is that letters are considered divine embodiments! In two distinct cultures that is. Tamizh has it's own representation!
Nick H wrote: 04 Dec 2019, 20:05 There will be the inclusion of drum machines and keyboards
That is quite a keyboard : https://youtu.be/ovC28Fn-8LM?t=391 and https://youtu.be/ovC28Fn-8LM?t=674 that is quite a drum! Reminds me of some old Mandolin Srinivas with Upendran sir that I might have caught in Doordarshan in late 80s or so. The Mridangist is also reviving a rare style - remember him as Sri Kalidas student? rite?

I have heard a tavil on pad accompanying a local Sax vidvan in Tulsa, Oklahama as well. All possible!

Nick H
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by Nick H »

The Mridangist is also reviving a rare style - remember him as Sri Kalidas student? rite?
Taking a very quick look, without even tuning on sound system... I don't remember his face but the fingering looks like it might well come from Kalidas school.

I think that young keyboard boy's father used to be a member here, but at that time, it was not considered ok to "advertise," so he left. Now it is perfectly fine to post concerts by self, siblings, spouse or whatever. And why not.

I have some prejudice to overcome before going to a keyboard concert, but one day I will get over it.

Recently I did attend a mridangam/violin/percussion/nadaswaram/keyboard "ensemble." My personal preference is for the "traditional" format, but I went because I knew the musicians involved would not do anything ugly, and indeed they didn't.

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@85
rite?
what 'rites'? ritualistic? is this right?
is this English?

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

I kept telling language and communication have long separated in the chat era - you dint listen - :D

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@88
trite

thenpaanan
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 10:20
thenpaanan wrote: 28 Nov 2019, 00:49 is Carnatic music in the service of bhakti or does it have its own standing?
Hello! When a vidvan/vidushi trained in Guru parampara visits your city, you are the one to come and honor them with Bhakti - not personally to them - but to the system that created them. Who are they to service your bhakti! AvAlavatu onakku bhakti uNDakkaradAvadu.

Anda mariyAdai irundAl taan enda jAtikkaranum sangItam kETTuralAmE! adu illennAlatAn kETka muDiyala?
(if only people learnt that respect, they could simply listen to this damn music irrespective of Caste and creed! They lost it and hence they cannot listen - do they need to know a damn thing about it?).
I guess I did not communicate well. What I was asking was whether the art of Carnatic music is solely meant as a audio representation or vehicle for expression of bhakti (in the Hindu religious sense, i.e. bhakti towards God/ishTadevatA/Creator etc) or can it be used to express other aspects of the human experience as well. I was not asking about an individual's approach to Carnatic music itself, which can also be called a kind of bhakti (which is a different but valid interpretation).

-T

shankarank
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by shankarank »

Yes, if they are common/genuine/deeply felt experiences within a culture. I am not sure it should serve and promote the victim-hood feelings of people helping the counter politics.

And I don't agree that Carnatic tradition has restricted itself to the list of things you mention or to the sole purpose as a vehicle of Bhakti.

Also according to this Wiki-page would Carnatic also qualify as folk?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_musi ... folk_music

Or are we saying the authenticity of our music ( henceforth to be classified as art/classical) rests on some lakshna grantha manuscripts and notation manuscripts , we have from past, even as we don't know exactly from when?

If by Carnatic music , you mean it's lakshana sampradaya, then a good deal of it, here and there has been borrowed into popular music already. In fact it has gotten so meaningless, that I heard a famous music director invites an unknown Mridangist, asks him to play everything he knows, showers him with money and then goes to cut and paste any part of it into his creation. Mridangist wouldn't even know where and what, his work went into.

Coming back to your question, to create such works over various subjects , a culture has to get to work with it with conviction. We don't see enough conviction to preserve what we got, or have a solid listening culture outside of thronging to the most popular artists.

That conviction is required, if you are asking for genuinely Carnatic Genre evolution.

I suppose we could have compositions on issues facing Carnatic music, complaining about the lack of listener patronage, even as sponsor patronage has improved. We have enough here to wail about if you will. But listeners listening, may not like to be blamed :)

How the western world has evolved it's music, cannot be a comparative measure. West was funded by it's colonies and you could vividly see the synchronous phenomenon of growth there and decline here as the samasthanams became destitute!

The only thing that has held it up, is because the themes you mention, naturally lend themselves to preserving and cherishing and the community interested in the musical tradition, also related to these themes.

The music itself, the lakshana and it's structure, has metaphysics that represents uniqueness of our culture, especially the worship of feminine as divine. These are things we didn't know it as such - but come to surface when we are challenged to identify who we are.

We are not preserving Carnatic music, some other invisible force is doing it!

RasikasModerator2
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

What are you all talking here that has anything to do with music? No ideological advocacy on the forum please.

shankarank, would you please stop side tracking everything to the irrelevant and for once write something not an incoherent rant, actually on topic that doesn't have Marx in it and which can actually be understood in some way? And RSR, this goes for you too - in the name of being objective, of late you seem to be pushing a holier than thou agenda to discard anything not your taste.

Either shift the socio political stuff to the lounge / delete them or we shall.

RSR
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RSR »

@98
No. Here are my posts in this thread.
59,,64,70,74,76,77,78,80,83,85,90,93
@91 nick had the grace .
I have a definite position on the various aspects of CM. as well as on historical,social, political and philosophical questions. I am fairly well-read in many areas not related to CM. and have a catholicity of views as a follower of Jawaharlal Nehru. I maintain a large number of websites and a few blogs in tamizh and English. I am an activist.
Almost every-day, I spend about 30 minutes in going through the posts by esteemed forum members on composers and musicians. and then in general sections.
I have restrained myself from posting things not related to CM except when some people stray away and use improper words and insinuations. I have to reply lest it is taken as admission of such things. and submission to insinuations.
I am happy to note that many great scholars in this forum hold similar opinion on CM topics. I have never written anything in sections on topics like dance, layam, concert reviews, and such. I NEVER use smileys. Never call others 'names'. Never make personal remarks. Very often I just mention the post number.
Heavens wont fall if my posts are deleted.

RasikasModerator2
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Re: Predominance of Kalpanaswaram in kutcheris

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

The thread began to detail after around 65-70 posts. Now it's all between RSR's activism and shankarank's rants. It probably peaked when Nick talked of innovation.

We think this thread is beyond repair now. So it's going to be Locked up. If you want to talk neraval vs kalpanaswaram, open a new thread and stick to topic. Specially advised to shankarank.

And our personal suggestion, please hear us out. Kindly try to get the music to do some of the talking too. That's proof of the pudding. That's what we tried to do in the early days of this forum and it didn't work because we didn't have anything but rapidshare and some members themselves threatening copyrights on us.

These days, music is aplenty, but anecdotes, useful info and recordings have taken a backseat to rants, ideologies, diatribes, detours and closed threads. We get feedback privately that the only time the forum talks something on music is when they write reviews. With many of our original members gone or not posting anymore, we have lost a lot of musical discussion. We are told that some of you ranters are responsible for driving away our better members off the forum by said members when we ask them why they stopped. The grim reaper took away the rest.

We kicked out the incorrigible worst, but that's not helping anything on the positive side of contribution.

We have a lot of members, and add like 50 of them every other day, but as one post some time back once pointed out, 99% of them haven't made a post ever. So no fresh blood on the horizon right now.

There are plenty of younger members and students of music who are not allowed to sign up
or write here (mostly by their gurus) and are actively discouraged from reading here because we are getting musically irrelevant. And the attitude of some people here and the generation gap won't encourage the next gen either. This is what we get to hear, and people do not know who we are, so this is unfiltered. None of us are getting younger either and we wonder about the future of this place without us.

If there wasn't some activity in ragas or musicians or reviews or requests, we would probably say bye bye to music altogether and rename ourselves rants.org

The good news is that our FB page is far more active than anything here, we have 30000 members there, but that's kind of day to say use and throw fast food stuff. No one writes anything deep there like they do here, you can't search or categorize anything for future accessibility like here.

But a tremendous amount of music, pics, videos and event info is shared on FB and almost everyone is a real person whom we can find out there. Some of those better links could be shared here too. Some good stuff here could be shared there where more people will read it.

Of late we feel we're part time class teachers. And when we're not that, we're always on lockdown duty.

High time we get honest here about how we feel, after yet another thread locked up. More music, more sharing, and less noise please.

Locked