Sruti bhedam and swara bhedam? Are they the same?

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RSR
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#1 Sruti bhedam and swara bhedam? Are they the same?

Post by RSR » 27 Mar 2019, 22:09

A few doubts.
1) Taking the krithis of the Trinity as reference, and standard, is there any instance where they have introduced the concept of 'sruthibedam' / 'swarabedam'?

2) Except Dikshithar, have the other two of the Trinity, ever given us a ragamalika?

3) Is it orthodox to sing kritis with srutibedam? I understand that there was very heated discussion decades back that it was not proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bhedam

Thanks for enlightening inputs.
Last edited by RSR on 28 Mar 2019, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
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SrinathK
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#2 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BEDAM AND SWARA BEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by SrinathK » 27 Mar 2019, 22:23

Now I don't know about the difference between the two, but sruthi bhedam is the original technique that gave rise to the 22 shrutis and it was also well known in ancient tamizh music where it was used to transpose panns.

Mathematically, as a result, any graha bhedam works properly only in the 22 shruti system of intervals. However for the sake of alignment with the tambura and given that we all sing only gamaka music now, it still works very well with natural notes.

Dikshitar's father Ramaswami Dikshitar composed rAgamAlikAs and Thyagaraja was also aware of the concept (rAga ratna mAlikachE).
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arasi
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#3 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BEDAM AND SWARA BEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by arasi » 28 Mar 2019, 01:22

Mods,
Could you kindly change the word bedam in the title to bhedam? After all it's a sanskrit word and is the same in other languages too. In tamizh, it can be read as bEdam. Uniformity in spelling helps the coming generations of CM learners as well. English spelling clears it up.
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PRCM
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#4 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BEDAM AND SWARA BEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by PRCM » 28 Mar 2019, 09:14

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RSR
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#5 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BEDAM AND SWARA BEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 10:46

Graha Bedham is an amazing concept in Carnatic Music.
Graha - means home (or) position.
Bedham- means change
Graha Bedham means change in position of the swarasthanams.
=============================================

(this is from quora)
==============
Is it 'gruha' or 'graha'? ( gruha ( house)pravesam'(entering' ,I am sure every one here is familiar with)
('graha means planet) where is graha pravesam here in CM ( PERHAPS MD KRITHIS) ?
------------------------
This transliteration stuff is a big horror story.
sthaanam is meant. ! Note how the quora mentions bedham
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I would just ignore as there is no such tamil word. (bh)..
Best thing will be to give devanaagari letters , even in titles
how does one read 'da' as 'dha' ? future generations will read it as
சுருடி பேடம் மற்றும் ஸ்வர பேடம்
instead of
ஸ்ருதி பேதம் மற்றும் ஸ்வர பேதம் இரண்டிற்கும் உண்டான வேறுபாடு என்ன?
--------------------------
My precise question is about the subtle difference between sruthi bhedam and swara bhedam
as briefly touched upon in the wiki page.
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Last edited by RSR on 28 Mar 2019, 10:58, edited 1 time in total.
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RSR
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#6 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 10:48

@3->Done
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RSR
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#7 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BEDAM AND SWARA BEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 15:46

arasi wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 01:22
Mods,
Could you kindly change the word bedam in the title to bhedam? After all it's a sanskrit word and is the same in other languages too. In tamizh, it can be read as bEdam. Uniformity in spelling helps the coming generations of CM learners as well. English spelling clears it up.
amused!
viewtopic.php?t=633
Graha/Sruthi bedam
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RSR
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#8 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 15:51

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arasi
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#9 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by arasi » 28 Mar 2019, 19:41

RSR,
Wonder why you were amused :) I could have asked you if you could change it, but what if the time to edit had elapsed by the time you saw my post? Or, you had taken it as criticismof your way of writing it? :)

Thanks Mods for listening. However, in caps, it isn't perfect yet! Being a title, we need caps, of course. But now, it can be read as bhE'',and a Dam, a water-barrier! Will keeping just the words bhEdam in small case help the word?
Sorry if I'm being irksome on these matters. It's tough for people who do not know the language of such musical expressions. It's good to stick to the right word--not in the way it's used and is spoken by some--I think I mentioned 'eDam' in another post. Why not call it iDam, I said, as we write it? Tamizh specially has so many colloquial variations on words, and it abounds with elisions.
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RSR
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#10 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 28 Mar 2019, 21:51

Madam, I had cited the title of an earlier thread in this forum itself. ( cause for my amusement). (sruti BEDAM)
In Tamizh we cannot differentiate.. though we can transliterate it as bhedam. The 'dam' problem occurs again!
வெற்றி எட்டுத் திக்கும் எட்ட கொட்டு முரசே
பேதம் இன்றி வாழ்க என்று கொட்டு முரசே
viewtopic.php?t=633 has the topic as Graha/Sruthi bedam
---------------------------------------------------------------
this is from wiki page.
Śruti Bhedam though Śruti Bhedam and Graha Bhedam have some technical differences.[1]

I am not having any software to trnsliterate into English. but readers can easily guess from the context. Much more serious trouble is with graham --- griham( gruiham) kutrialukaram

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yeshprabhu
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#11 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by yeshprabhu » 30 Mar 2019, 11:29

RSR wrote, "Is it orthodox to sing kritis with srutibedam? I understand that there was very heated discussion decades back that it was not proper."

The concept of Shruti Bhedam is not universally accepted. When a reviewer asked Ganakaladhara, Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sri Madurai Mani Iyer(who is most famous for his Shruti Shuddha), why he never indulged in doing Griha Bheda or Shruti Bheda, in any of his concerts, the great vocalist said that every raga has its own raga bhaava and creates its own mood. "When you bring in another raga, which has its own raga bhaava, by doing griha bhedam, it disturbs the mood created by the original raga. When you sing Kalyani, don't bring in Mohana or any other raga to it. If you want to sing Mohana, sing it after you finish the Kalyani raga kriti. Can two wives or two women live happily under one roof? Don't disturb the mood generated by one raga by mixing it with the mood of another raga." Sangeetha Kalanidhis Sri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy, Sri D K Jayaram, Smt D K Pattammal, Sangeetha Kalanidhi Smt Brinda, and Smt M S Subbulaxm, and several others: all traditionalists and purists, never indulged in such gimmicks as doing griha bheda. My sangeetha Acharya Sri T N Bala, who was Sri Madurai Mani Iyer's very senior shishya, never did griha bheda in any of his concerts, either. In fact, he did not even want to teach it to any of his students, even though he himself could do it if he wished. I am convinced that vocalists who indulge in gimmicks such as doing griha bheda are merely trying desperately to impress the rasikas with their "capabilities and musical prowess", and the rasikas, of course, reward them with applause. I have observed that whenever rasikas hear Grihabhedam in a concert, they automatically applaud, regardless of whether it sounded pleasant or not. Shruti bheda, Griha Bheda, and Swara bheda, are terms that can be inter changed, I think; they all mean the same. You can call a monkey by any other name, it will still remain a monkey.
Yesh Prabhu, Mylapore, Chennai
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RSR
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#12 Re: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SRUTI BhEDAM AND SWARA BhEDAM? ARE THEY SAME?

Post by RSR » 30 Mar 2019, 12:09

yeshprabhu wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 11:29
RSR wrote, "Is it orthodox to sing kritis with srutibedam? I understand that there was very heated discussion decades back that it was not proper."

The concept of Shruti Bhedam is not universally accepted. When a reviewer asked Ganakaladhara, Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sri Madurai Mani Iyer(who is most famous for his Shruti Shuddha), why he never indulged in doing Griha Bheda or Shruti Bheda, in any of his concerts, the great vocalist said that every raga has its own raga bhaava and creates its own mood. "When you bring in another raga, which has its own raga bhaava, by doing griha bhedam, it disturbs the mood created by the original raga. When you sing Kalyani, don't bring in Mohana or any other raga to it. If you want to sing Mohana, sing it after you finish the Kalyani raga kriti. Can two wives or two women live happily under one roof? Don't disturb the mood generated by one raga by mixing it with the mood of another raga." Sangeetha Kalanidhis Sri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy, Sri D K Jayaram, Smt D K Pattammal, Sangeetha Kalanidhi Smt Brinda, and Smt M S Subbulaxm, and several others: all traditionalists and purists, never indulged in such gimmicks as doing griha bheda. My sangeetha Acharya Sri T N Bala, who was Sri Madurai Mani Iyer's very senior shishya, never did griha bheda in any of his concerts, either. In fact, he did not even want to teach it to any of his students, even though he himself could do it if he wished. I am convinced that vocalists who indulge in gimmicks such as doing griha bheda are merely trying desperately to impress the rasikas with their "capabilities and musical prowess", and the rasikas, of course, reward them with applause. I have observed that whenever rasikas hear Grihabhedam in a concert, they automatically applaud, regardless of whether it sounded pleasant or not. Shruti bheda, Griha Bheda, and Swara bheda, are terms that can be inter changed, I think; they all mean the same. You can call a monkey by any other name, it will still remain a monkey.
Yesh Prabhu, Mylapore, Chennai
Sir,
Absolutely wonderful and unsparing critique of gimmicks. The names mentioned are and will ever be the guiding stars of true classical music. Thank you.
RaagamAlikas are slightly different in concept. I believe that none of the Trinity , have given us any raagamaalika even ( except Dikshitar).
With lyrics of literary beauty, set to fine tune in suitable ragas, and blended with nice orchestration, and sung by a gifted singer, a rAgamAlikA , can be mind-blowing! That they are more suitable for latter part of a classical concert ( I avoid the name ;thukkada') . and for 'plate' music. does not take away their uniqueness and creativity. Smt.MS, Smt.DKP have given us a dozen enthralling and enchanting examples as 'plate' music.
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