SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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vgovindan
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#1 SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

I came across an iteresting research paper containing the following SlOka from SRngAra prakASa of Bhoja -

Atmasthitam gunavisesamahamkritasya sringaramadhuriha jivitamatmayoneh / Tasyatmasaktirasaniyataya rasatvam yuktasya yena rasikoyamiti pravadah //

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/tr ... 5546c02d48

vgovindan
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#2 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

The explanation of this verse and its amplification as given therein, is in the given link -

"....In a person, says Bhoja, in whose consciousness Ego has become manifest, there is a particular quality of such Ego-consciousness. This is the very life of Eros who takes birth from such a self. This quality of Eros is known as s'rngara. This quality i.e.s'rhgara is tasted in the self by the self. This tasting is rasa sui generis. A person in whom this self-tasting has become manifest or developed is called rasika. Thus,by this verse,Bhoja, explains the meaning of the word ahamkara used in the first karika of his S.IC.A.Y.-422

Let us try to understand the implications of this statement. We take as our basis the samkhya psychology,which Bhoja seems to follow or have in mind and which teaches that the man in the world is a particular correlation of purusa and prakrti. According to its another dogma purusa is merely the subject of knowledge. It is completely unchanging and inactive. Purusa can not be said to do anything, It is consciousness itself and so to say englightens the transformation that takes place in prakrti. In such a relation, therefore, what we ordinarily call mental transformations are to be understood as the transformation of prakrti which is material in nature but which is continuously being illuminated by the caitanya of the purusa. In the evolution of prakrti from its state of equilibrium of sattva, rajas and tamas,the first evolute is known as mahat. This seems to indicate the vastness of reality as such. From this evolves what is known as buddhi which should be understood as cognition as such. This is to say that the vastness of reality first evolves the specific quality of cognition. Buddhi gives birth to ahamkara which we may interpret as Ego or individuality.This evolute of individuality further evolves into what are known as panca tanmatras i.e.the subtle elements which become gross in different kinds of matter and the motor organ and the sensoria organs and in inner organ called antahkarana or manas,which seems to be the active agent between the buddhi and the remaining fifteen elements. We need not go in the study of the further evolutes of prakrti. What we are concerned here with is the & fact of individualised buddhi and Ego which is called ’abhi mahohamkSfcah * by Is'varakrsna (SI.K&.24).It is the self-enjoyment of this Ego which in the opinion of Bhoja. is rasa. taste pfifer excellence. In other words,when such a state of consciousness is reached it is called rasa. Bhoja seems to take this as his basic principle in the discussion of rasa. With this fact he joins up another fact and that is the nature of Eros or kSma as ^jteh. This is supposed to he self- originating (atmayoni; compare Amarakos'a, atmabhuh).

This is the fundamental fact of love or rati, which is usually identified with the sex-passion. Sex- passion is something which joins the two opposites. The relation of purusa and prakrti, in a way, is visualised in a similar union though not identical. Eros seems to become manifest in this way. Because the manifestation of Eros is known by the term s’rngara, Bhoja is tempted to equate the three: abhimsha, ahamkara and s’rngara as indicating the consciousness of taste or enjoyment...."

(There are some typos which I could not correct)

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/tr ... 6e1e0d4902

kvchellappa
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#3 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by kvchellappa »


vgovindan
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#4 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

"......The different connotations of rasa could be viewed to have significance at three different levels physical, psychological and metaphysical.
For instance, when one states that the fruit is full of rasa, it means that it is full of juice. In the psychological sense, it implies flavour or taste where the active participation of psyche plays a definite role, while at the metaphysical level, it describes the experience that one undergoes when aroused by any artistic expression. The perceiver enjoys an experianoe which is exalted from a particular to the universal plane by bringing about complete effacement of the experiencer's ego and its total identification with that artistic creation. It is this supramundane experience described in the Upanishad-s that assumes significance in Indian aesthetics.

Although the rasa-theory had been initially propounded as an essential element of natya (dramatic art), it was later on applied to kavya (poetry) and other fine arts such as alekhya (drawing and painting), sangita expressions of dance), (music), nritya murtishilpa (histrionic (sculpture) vastushilpa or architecture. ....."

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/tr ... cbcc64efff

shankarank
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#5 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

Prof Seshadri who taught pattern recognition once said in class: the Kashmir strife is due to Vaishno dEvi not having a Siva pratiSTha nearby to placate her Sakti.

A recent video I watched points out how, for pAlai (desert) tamizh sangam literature had koTTravai - the feminine as the deity. PAlai - desert is where strife/robbery is prevalent. The video also pointed out the vEdic deity niRRti is a ferocious feminine form - which emerges when Rta is disturbed.

The protesting tribes were taken as a signal by the King as to his rule is not dharmic - the connection between lack of rains (desert) and the king's adharmic rule. Britishers criminalized them. The difference between eastern and western view of native tribes.

So is SrngAra more at the core of reality even before rasa emerges?

vgovindan
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#6 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

"..is SrngAra more at the core of reality even before rasa emerges?"

I don't think so. It is the rasa that is inherent in ultimate reality that gets manifested as SRngAra - by becoming the other - in order to taste that rasa. rasOvai saH (रसोवै सः). It is the story of Siva and Sakti - kRshNa and rAdhA. Sounds absurd from human relations point of view? The story is there in dEvi mahAtmyam - the supreme Reality as 'mahA lakshmi' generating from herself durgA and sarasvati, and self becoming lakshmi, and generating a male component each (maithunam) and then exchanging them. Sounds weird? But some inescapable truths. God only knows what is what.

https://upanishads.org.in/upanishads/7/2/7/1

vgovindan
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#7 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

"Ananda Coomaraswamy says,

“Apart from perception it [rasa] does not exist. It is timeless. It is again, super sensuous, hyperphysical [alaukika], and the only proof of its reality is to be found in experience - [rasavadana]”

https://www.boloji.com/articles/12824/t ... -flowering

rasAnubhava -
"...Ananda Coomaraswamy says in his legendary work “Dance of Shiva” that “He himself is actor and audience”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 3.ece/amp/

vgovindan
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#8 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

".....When you look at beautiful scenery, your eyes shut and you sink into that ocean of beauty. When you smell a fragrant flower, the flower remains outside, the fragrance disappears in a void, and you drop into being. That is beauty. When you hear beautiful music, you become fully immersed in it and you no longer know what is being played. You are lost in the formless divinity within.

Without dispassion, beauty is short lived. Possessiveness turns beauty into a mirage. Devotion and wonderment is simply appreciating beauty without possessiveness. You see a beautiful painting and you want to own it, you want to take it home with you, but then you hang it on your wall and after a while you don't even look at it....."

https://www.artofliving.org/in-en/waves-beauty


"....truth and beauty can be thought of as human values resulting from the participation and cancellation of what is visible with what is intelligible. The status of the resultant meaning, represented by the words "Truth" and "Beauty", written with capital letters, falls under the aegis of the Absolute. All human values can be treated in this way......

In the "Saundarya Lahari", Sankara combines the beauty of Shiva and Parvati so as to give them together the human value of Beauty with a capital letter, by which it attains to an overwhelming absolutist status, as suggested by the title of the work itself. Sankara's aim here is to give to the abstract notion of the Absolute the content of absolute beauty. In doing so he reveals himself as a man of superior poetic genius, by virtue of which the Absolute, otherwise a mere abstraction, comes to have a concrete, real and visible, as well as a truly experienceable, content...."

http://www.advaita-vedanta.co.uk/index. ... ri-verse-1

vgovindan
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#9 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

. "a profound, mysterious sense of the beauty of the universe ... and the sad beauty of human suffering"....

'saundarya' of Adi Sankara in 'saundarya lahari', is that which includes asymmetry within symmetry; which includes ugly within beauty; which includes hoarse within melody; which includes bitter and pungent within sweet; which includes kALi within tripura sundari &c. Any thought of exclusivity does not truly resonate with the model of universe that we cognise.

Unfortunately, over the years 'beauty' has become very exclusive. As brought in the link below, the Japanese aesthetics give more credence to the bud and the decayed flower, than the flower itself, because it reminds you of the transience of nature and the beauty of that (transcience). This, in my opinion, is the true appreciation of 'beauty' in the all-encompassing sense.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aesthetics

thenpaanan
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#10 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 21 Apr 2020, 08:58
Unfortunately, over the years 'beauty' has become very exclusive. As brought in the link below, the Japanese aesthetics give more credence to the bud and the decayed flower, than the flower itself, because it reminds you of the transience of nature and the beauty of that (transcience). This, in my opinion, is the true appreciation of 'beauty' in the all-encompassing sense.
Interesting thought. How would one incorporate this in music, and specifically Carnatic music at that? What would be the equivalent of the bud and the dried flower?

-T

vgovindan
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#11 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

thenpaanan,
SRngAra is a very controversial topic, particularly, in the context of rAga bhakti or anurAga, where SRngara is used as a tool for approaching and merging with parabrahmam - be it as kRshNa (rAdhA kRshNa) or Siva (and Sakti). Even Adi Sankara has composed 'saundarya lahari', which has SRngAra rasa. It is the eternal brahmacAri, Suka who has composed rAsa lIla, the same being reflected by jayadEva. All these are most venerable people, who would not have ventured into this without a purpose.

When juxtaposed this - SRngAra of saundarya lahari, rAsa lIla and gIta gOvinda - with padams and jAvalis which are expression of mundane love, sometimes bordering on lewdness, it becomes very difficult to grasp - for spiritual aspirants - as to why this rasa - SRngAra - is employed at all by devotees, when there is an easy way out - bhakti - be it rAga bhakti of tyAgarAja or SAnta bhakti of MD. (Even tyAgarAja has composed some kRtis with theme bordering SRngAra). There must be a profound reason. You just cannot keep padams/javalis along with gIta gOvinda and say they are in same SRngAra rasa; no, they are antipodes.

In order to understand SRngAra of rAdhA-kRshNa, I feel we should first grasp the meaning of 'saundarya'. The famous 'satyaM-SivaM-sundaraM' which is same as 'sat-cit-Ananda' - the triple aspect of Supreme reality, needs to be fully understood so that we can distinguish between the divine nature of gIta gOvinda and mundane nature of padams and javalis, though both employ SRngAra as a tool. Where there is SRngAra, there is saundarya, though saundarya is a superset of SRngAra, IMHO.

As brought out in my earlier post, saundarya is not same as 'beauty' which is the routine translation. While the Western - read modern - notion of beauty refers only - or mostly - to physicality, from Indian perspective - and Japanese perspective, as brought out - it is 'inclusive' in nature and not exclusive. Unless this is fully comprehended, it will not be possible to see the truth behind SRngAra as bhakti tool. I am still groping in darkness.

As for application of transcience in Music, my post was not in the context of Music alone - SRngAra is not a demonstrable aspect of Music - it is a part of nATya SAstra - Drama which comprises of dance and music.

As for 'rasa' is concerned, it is my view that 'saundarya' is the rasa that is inherent in the Supreme Reality. That is the meaning, IMHO, of 'Ananda' in sat-cit-Ananda.

Hope the purpose will be understood by other viewers and they would respond, so that the true nature of SRngAra can be appreciated and understood contextually.

thenpaanan
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#12 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 21 Apr 2020, 21:05
When juxtaposed this - SRngAra of saundarya lahari, rAsa lIla and gIta gOvinda - with padams and jAvalis which are expression of mundane love, sometimes bordering on lewdness, it becomes very difficult to grasp - for spiritual aspirants - as to why this rasa - SRngAra - is employed at all by devotees, when there is an easy way out - bhakti - be it rAga bhakti of tyAgarAja or SAnta bhakti of MD. (Even tyAgarAja has composed some kRtis with theme bordering SRngAra). There must be a profound reason. You just cannot keep padams/javalis along with gIta gOvinda and say they are in same SRngAra rasa; no, they are antipodes.
But this is not the only such example. Bhakti, which can be loosely translated to "attachment to the Divine", has been emphatically likened to hunger ("pasi" in tamizh) by our saints. It is commonplace to call the longing of rAdhA "thirst" (she is the eternal 'pyAsi"). This is a mundane physical bring-down-to-earth of a lofty concept and we don't take objection to that. We happily consume both the abstract and the physical descriptions of the concept. I think that is because the loftier the concept the harder it is to describe, appreciate, and/or communicate to others. So we resort to adjacent feelings like hunger and thirst to describe them. Then why do we object to this particular adjacency between spiritual love and physical love? Does it have to do with societal conditioning more than any other reason?

As a complete aside, I have to concede that physical, or more accurately (for this context) "carnal", love has been treated as being in a separate category from our other urges for ever in our history. Even the Buddha could not countenance it, even though it is just as natural and physical as the other forms of experience. We have long had a fascination with celibacy that other cultures have not shared.

-T

vgovindan
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#13 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

As you agree, other urges are of different kind, leaving SRngAra as unique. Furthermore, there is no reciprocity in other urges. If you are hungry, your hunger is satiated; if you are thirsty, your thirst is quenched. Simple. But when it comes to SRngAra, there is an element of reciprocity. How can that happen? Meera held kRshNa as her husband. She was given rAma mantra in upadESa. But, she could go about behaving as if kRshNa was indeed her husband. When she goes to bRndAvan to meet Goswamiji, she even states to him that there is only one male in bRndAvan - kRshNa; all others are rAdha only.

But, in case of a male, till he retains the ego as a man, he can approach the Supreme Reality only as mother, nothing else is possible. On the otherhand, if he conceives himself as a woman and aspires for Him as a consort (rati bhAva), his desire - it is not a carnal desire - is fulfilled (sAyuja). But, there is a catch - how the Lord yearns for rAdhA when she is angry and upset? What kind of logic is this?

In SrIvidya paddhati, though we follow dakshiNAcAra, there is the concept of 'maithuna' - I have not yet grasped the purpose of panca makAra at all.

In dEvi bhAgavatam, it is described how mahAlaksmi, as the Supreme Reality, generates from Herself the Trinity. There, mention of maithuna is found.

sRngAra as a route to divine union is beset with a lot of complications and confusions. Things cannot be swept under the carpet as inconvenient truths. We have to face them squarely.

vgovindan
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#14 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Consciousness - myriad forms it takes -

"...
archer, from Tibet,

Pulling back the arrow in the bow is perception.
Aiming the arrow is matching the perception with memory.
Releasing the arrow is consciousness (a response - the word, like the arrow, escapes you).
Observing where the arrow strikes is awareness (because it is a surprise whether it misses or hits the target)..."

http://www.this-magic-sea.com/CONSCDIS.HTM

vgovindan
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#15 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

".....Bharata of Natya Sastra fame, considers SRngAra as the divine basic sentiment (Adi-rasa). It is the primitive creative urge (kAma or desire), by the help of which indeterminate brahman (nirguNa brahman) appears as the determinate one (saguNa brahman). The eternal undivided One manifests as the manifold appearance: sa tapo(a)tapyata, EkOham bahusyAm prajAyEya. The Vaishnava philosophers and the Alamkarikas also consider SRngAra as the best possible means to enjoy the celestial love dalliance of Radha and Krishna. The mystic poet Jayadeva (12th century A.D) describes Radha as the embodiment of SRngAra : 'SRngAraH sakhi mUrtimAniva madhau mugdhO hariH krIDati' (I.48). If we analyse the gItagOvinda of Jayadeva, we find that no single statement shows the poet's desire to have union with Krishna, as Radha had, and he sings only in praise of love dalliance of Radha and Krishna. The same attitude is found in Chandidasa, Vidyapati and other Vaishnava mystic poets and savants.

According to the Philosophical-cum-theological works of Bengal Vaishnavism, Radha is nothing but transfiguration of infinte potency of love contained in the very nature of Krishna. In fact "the divine love between Radha and Krishna has been conceived anthropomorphically, through the analogies of human love" says Dr. Sasibhushan Dasgupta. Further he has said : "Human love has been analysed psychologically into all its varieties and niceties to the minutest details, and it has been found on analysis that divine love can be expressed only through the analogy of the most intense and most romantic and unconventional love that exists between a man and a woman, who became bound together by the ideal of love for love's sake." This love or divine love is the expression of the basic sentiment SRngAra or creative urge. The stone figures of naTas and naTis (male and female dancers), depicted on the walls of the temples of Orissa, represent the expression of the SRngAra rasa. These nude figures may appear ordinarily obscene and objectionable to the common observers, but they appear divine from the artistic and aesthetic viewpoints.........The psychological aspect of music is conerned with these aesthetic and contemplative things, which makes the music dynamic and divine."

The Historical Study of Indian Music (pp 370 - 372) - Swami Prajnananda

vgovindan
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#16 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Please read the post -

http://www.indian-heritage.org/music/mmr3.html

This post prompted me to consider a test case of tyAgarAja kRti 'ennALLu UrakE' - Subha pantuvarALi - lyrics -

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

The rendition by Sanjay -

https://youtu.be/3b1OcX-hIRw

I consider this kRti of tyAgarAja to be 'inspired'.
Let me indulge in imagination as to the circumstances under which this kRti was born. It is a deep yearning - to alleviate distress, albeit self-imposed, because he did not want to follow worldly methods to secure his livelihood. He had a shelter. He had a family, but he had rejected the notion of praising humans.

It is early in the morning. He has finished his morning ablusions and goes to pooja room to be beside his music. His wife comes to the door and peeps at him. The message is obvious. It was a rainy day and no unchavRtti. There is not a grain in the house. The previous night, even the child had gone hungry. tyAgarAja notices his wife's presence at the door, and he looks back - a blank look. An implied conversation takes place - a sense of resignation.

He takes up veena and casually plays. The mood is pathetic - how long? The musical phrase that comes to his mind in that mood makes him to sit up. He has found the seed of what he wants to say to his Lord. 'ennALLu' - how long? How long you are going to allow this pitiable condition to persist? The rest is the flow.

Did the rAga come first? Did the musical phrase come first or did the word come first. IMHO, it is the state of mind that prompted the phrase, the rAga, the circumstances prompted the wording of the query 'how long'.

Therefore, it is the state of mind of the composer that is to be understood. Did tyAgarAja compose it so that it could be replayed by others? An emphatic 'no'. His disciples took hurried notes and gave it to the future. To say tyAgarAja composed this kRti, in the sense it is commonly understood, is totally misplaced. I am not implying that all kRtis of tyAgarAja are inspirational. But it is a fact, excepting for a few - (panca ratna kRtis may have both aspects - inspiration followed by subsequent elaboration), the most popular kRtis which are simple in language and direct are inspired.

There is a similar kRti of MD 'tyAgarAjE kRtyAkrtyaM arpayAmi, vidEha kaivalyaM yAmi'. This is a once in a life time kRti - not meant to be re-enacted. If at all done so, the background needs to be kept in mind.

It is not the understanding of the audience - there is bound to be a mix of people who have differing musical appreciation. What matters is whether the artist can get into the mould. The rasAnubhava that happens in appreciation of rAga and rAga lakshaNa per se, lasts only till the concert itself. Only those enunciations which are laden with bhAva emanating from underlying state of mind of the composer, leave a deep and lasting impression on the minds of audience, creating a craving.

What each one wants, is up to each one of us. But the role of artist is not co-terminus with audience. It is nAdAnubhava at the core which touches that rasa - the essence of life - 'rasO vai saH' - even if one is an atheist.

Proper re-enunciation of this kRti by 'artists' is possible only when the state of mind of the 'composer'? is properly appreciated.

saMgIta originally meant dance, drama and music where the totality of rasAnubhava was possible. But circumstances have separated music from saMgIta.

PS - This post has nothing to do with SRngAra as such, but all the same, it - SRngAra - comes under 'rasa'.

Ranganayaki
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#17 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by Ranganayaki »

Very beautiful and sensitive imagining of the scene.. you bring out the pathos of the scene you imagine, that old-world communication through silence between husband and wife, and a heart-rending context that is so sadly plausible.

There is, however, much I don’t understand of your comments, and if I didn’t really like this post so much, I wouldn’t bother to mention it. It’s happened before, but I often found it easy to give up.

You use the passive voice a lot and it makes your writing much harder to comprehend. I have to struggle to answer the simple question, “Who did what?” This becomes more complex when it is what ought to have been done? (“By whom“ is not mentioned in your passive voice)I would appreciate your trying a little to stick to the active voice, so that much of the content is not lost on me.

I hope you don’t mind my friendly suggestion - made for my own ease. Thank you!

So were you saying that that this song is not “composed?” That this is a torrent, an outpouring of pathos? Were you also saying that artists need to develop the sensitivity to catch a glimpse of the mood of a composition? Please let me know, I want to know if I got it right. I understood it like that, with some thrashing about.

But the scene really touched me.

vgovindan
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#18 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

The context of my post is to elaborate on the comments made by Munirao in response to a query of TMK. Recently Aruna Sairam posted a video - I think I reposted it here - about an Abhang street singer. A few years back, there was a video of an elderly couple in the streets of Mumbai singing film songs and earning for their next meal - they were in the playback artists troupe of a famous music director. When I was in US, visiting my daughter, I used to see a tall elderly black man sitting on a bench in front of a shopping mall at Reston with a blank look. Who said you need words to communicate? The eyes are the best means of communication, if one has the inclination to look a liitle deep. These scenes would not leave me when I describe situations which are only in the imagination of people. A living reality is better understood by one who is not a witness - like the snapshot takers - when someone is in distress. It is an entertainment value for the snapshot taker, not so for the victim.

Did you say that I use a lot of passive voice? I re-read my post, and I really could not comprehend what you wanted to convey by that observation. Sometimes, probably, people who have got their minimal education by trodding a thorny path and could never follow the sophistication of convent education, would be writing in such mundane way. Let's leave it at that. You said that you understood the scene imagined - that's all matters. Probably, you have answered your query yourself in the penultimate para.

The problem in my writing about music is that I do not have a formal training - after 70, I ventured into Veena lessons for three years, and then aborted. Therefore, I have to write with a lot of reservation about the type of comments I make. I neither attend concerts because they don't interest me.

I hope I have not confused you more. My writing is indeed a monologue-dialogue with myself. It is too late to change writing styles.

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#19 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

I may add a little more to illustrate my intent -

In this Corona distress, there are many who are out to help people by distributing food packets. You might have also seen many such philanthropists posing for a snap with food packet in hand, with the unfortunate receiver. Art is exactly same. When the artist places the art before (himself - gets merged with it - rasAnubhava)- then the art flourishes, but if he places himself before the art, then it is not the art that flourishes. No wonder, then that a hundred years could not produce another tyAgarAja - probably that's why attempts are made to devalue and denigrate him.

Also, I don't attach any significance to the kutcheri format, wherein in one moment, the artist depicts an abhisarika nayika and in the next moment switches over to tyAgarAja or some other like him - calling whom 'artists' - in the modern sense - is a slap on their face.

I am not denigrating abhisarika nayika as portrayed in HM ghazal etc. Such a woman, most of the time are victims of circumstances, with a baby crying in the next room for milk, in the lap of a pimp. Far from it - the women have been exploited, but then women, instead of recovering from that, many have made virtue out of it. That's an aside.

The true kutcheri would be where the artist dictates - not consciously and literally - but as a matter of practice - the contents of his presentation, and the audience enter the hall with a blank mind in a receptive mood. HM concerts are more successful in this regard.

Ranganayaki
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#20 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thank you for confirming what I’d asked about.

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#21 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Unification of aesthetics and spirituality -

Concept of rasa

"....The Indian theory of language (specially that of Bhartrhari and Abhinavagupta), as well as the Indian aesthetic theory (the Rasa theory of Bharata and Abhinavagupta) has a definite metaphysical background. Interestingly, the metaphysical background of the linguistic theory is the same as that of the aesthetic theory. More amazingly, the process of reaching the metaphysical position too is almost the same.

The philosopher starts with the analysis of the existential situation and logically and consistently moves to discover the metaphysical ground. For example, the linguist begins with finding out what is the actual origin of the spoken word (vaikhari-vak) and comes to the finding that the speech (Vak) which seems to come from the vocal chord, really first originates in the mind in the form of the ideation (madhyama vak). This too logically presupposes the will to speak the word (pasyanti vak). Through this search process it becomes evident that language or speech is an activity and that it is not a physical activity but an ideational one — a deliberate activity of consciousness. This finding clears the ground for accepting a metaphysical entity in which this entire process of language is going on.

After all the language activity, the philosopher thinks, would not take place in air; there must be a sentient reality — the consciousness (Citi or Samvit) in which the linguistic process originates and is also sustained. The scientific limitation of the western philosopher of language may not allow him to go beyond the boundaries of empirical experience, but there is no difficulty on the part of the Indian philosopher in accepting consciousness as an ontological entity, as the Indian tradition provides the clue for accepting a deeper or higher mode of experience, acquired by the seers and the yogins, through which they are believed to have had the actual cognition of the Reality or Consciousness.It can be said that the Indian philosopher of language was moving in search of language, and as a pleasant surprise he caught hold of the reality called Consciousness or the Self. In the context the adage goes — 'One was searching for 'Cowries (pennies), and luckily one tumbled upon 'Cintamani, the wish-fulfilling gem ('Varatikaman-Visyamanah cintamanim labdhavan).

The same process of discovery is to be found in the case of the aesthetic experience too. If we analyze the situation of beauty, it becomes evident that beauty is not a physical thing but a matter of experience -- the aesthetic experience. Moreover the joy of beauty (the aesthetic enjoyment) spontaneously comes from within the self or consciousness, although the stimulus may come from the external world. It will not be very difficult to discover that the joy which seems to be derived from the external object, does not really belong to that object but springs forth from within the self or consciousness of the enjoyer. So, aesthetic enjoyment (the Rasa) too presupposes the Self or Consciousness which is the natural matrix of Rasa and the Self is not a mere presupposition but is also confirmed in the experience of the seers.

The Upanisadic and Tantric seers have experienced the Self as made of 'Rasa' as it were (raso vai sah).It is, therefore, quite natural for Abhinavagupta to base his aesthetic theory, as also his theory of language, on the metaphysics of consciousness or the Self. The link between aesthetics and the metaphysics of the Self, suggests similarity between aesthetic experience and the spiritual experience called Self-realization or Brahma-realization or the experience of Moksa. Abhinavagupta, as also other Indian aesthetic philosophers, regards the aesthetic joy as the 'sibling' (sahodara) of the spiritual joy (’Brahmananda sahodara')....."

Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinava Gupta - by Dr. Kailash Pati Misra (Introduction - Chapter 1)

http://www.gianfrancobertagni.it/materi ... mishra.pdf

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#22 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

brahmAnanda sahOdara - explained

https://narthaki.com/info/articles/art206.html

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#23 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

Words, words, words! SrI Munirao needs to answer only one question. All this day , those of us like me who know not a word of Telugu or even Sanskrit that deeply, to make real sense of those kritIs, so we are fools?

Tanjore Marathi Grundig tape collector once shared this with me this. "Musicians continue to sing padams and jAvaLis only because there is wealth of rAgA bhAva in it" Basically saying otherwise the words are no longer meaningful anyways. As if tyAgarAja's words are meaningful to him and me - I know he didn't know telugu either and may recognize the meaning very cursorily by sheer association with music for so long. There is a call to "rAmA" in there and that sounds sacred to us.

If I were to make sense of this , only thing I would say is the sounds, including the sounds of words, become sacred to us. That includes padams, jAvaLis.

If you want SrngAra , it is in language construction itself : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi - you see only mostly Indian languages there! sandhi is not required for any semantic function. Many times it is an obstruction, and meaning can be obfuscated!

sandhi is a celebrated metaphor in SIksha valli - which deals with how vEdic instruction should happen. But the latter is more than just a instructional manual. It embodies the philosophy of letters, sounds and views them cosmically.

Language long ceased to be a vehicle of communication, more a thing of beauty and grandeur. Does any poetry communicate that much? People enjoy it's beauty!
Last edited by shankarank on 25 May 2020, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.

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#24 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Concept of rasa - SAnta is not a rasa (it is beyond any experience of rasa) -

"......What exactly is Rasa? It is a stage of consciousness free from all inhibitions and impediments, a state of pure naught - Ananda. Other attributes like Alankaras etc, give shape to this state of awareness - that is Rasa. In this contemplation of beauty, it is found possible to attain that pleasure-full elevation or excitement of the inner being which we experience as poetic sentiment (Kavyanubhoothi). This is the province of POEM......" (Part 1)

".....Rasa is the intrinsic pleasure or making up of the mind-set which transforms itself in to pure state of pleasure (Ananda). Ananda is the ultimate aim of spiritual pursuits which the Yogis attain through Sadhana. Rasa is the inner most experience closely akin to it. Ananda is complete and continuous transformation and flows like Thailadhara unintermittently. Rasa is short lived and exists till the infrastructure offered by Vibhavas etc exists....." (Part 2)

"....Santha Rasa
It has been stated earlier that the rasas are eight. But towards the end of his detailed narration, Bharatha has added Santha Rasa as the ninth one. It has been commented upon by later critics that Santha cannot be imitated on the stage as its essence is spirituality.
According to Bharatha, Sama is the Sthayee Bhava of Santha Rasa. Philosophical knowledge, abstinence, purity of heart etc. are the Vibhavas. Observance of Yama, Niyama etc, are the Anubhavas. Mental detachment, pensive attitude, firmness, neatness, are its Vyabhichari aspects.

Sthayee Bhavas are the emotional contents. According to Bharatha, the subtle essence of all emotions is Santha. Emotions are projected from Prakrithi to merge finally in it. All the other eight Rasas exist on the strength of the supporting materials. When the latter ceases to exist, the Rasa subsides. Then what remains is Santha. This is the philosophical consummation of the treatise...." (Part 2)

".....Normally the Vibhava should precede the rasa, whereas the Vibhava for Santha, say penance and contemplation occur after expression of Rasa in the case of Santha or Sama. These Vibhavas cannot therefore be considered as cause (karana) for Santha. Absence of Kama cannot be admitted as Anubhava, because for Veera also, Kama is absent.

Santha rasa cannot be represented through Abhinaya. It is a state of inaction. Abhinaya is not possible without movements. An idle person is inactive. He would not engage himself in philosophical pursuits (vibhava) which lead to Sama. Further it is also seen that a Gnani is not prone to remain idle. He would get himself involved in the welfare of others. In such circumstances it has to be concluded that there is no rasa as Santha...." (Part 7)

Bharatheeya Kavyasastra
- V S Bhaskara Panicker

https://narthaki.com/info/articles/bk.html

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#25 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

Post #23.....
"Tanjore Marathi Grundig tape collector once shared this with me this ......"

Pray tell me who is this in reference to please.

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#26 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

Tanjore the place of music - lots of music!
Marathi - not one of it's languages - not until Abhangs on stage
Grundig - the tapes that beat the sabha rasika (of 60s and 70s) - you can be in 10 places at once :D
And he would even beat those in Mylapore who claim - tcho, tcho - I have been listening to Carnatic for 40 years!
Collector - that he just was not - he did listen to most of it and packed his shelves with converted Cassettes _ I have seen :)

So in essence the very opposite of SrI V Govindan in every sense , including especially the concerts! :lol:

I think that should provide enough - nah! name does not add that much!
Last edited by shankarank on 27 May 2020, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

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#27 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

In continuation of post #21.

Concept of naTarAja - origins of nATya
(link given in the post)

"......There is no determinism or necessity on the part of Siva to create. He does it perfectly out of his freedom (svatantrya) as sport or play (krlya or Ilia). This activity of Siva is what is called Spanda (spontaneity) or Vimarsa (effulgence). Creation is a free sportive activity of the Siva- consciousness, it is symbolically called the dance of the Nataraja (the dancing Siva)......"

".... the Absolute Reality is pure unity, and its manifestation into the form of difference or unity-in-difference is its freedom. Siva does not manifest in order to attain freedom or get ananda, but it does so out of freedom and ananda. This is done in the state of freedom and ananda is already there, and it freely overflows in the form of the cosmic dance......"

Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinavagupata - by Dr. Kailash Pati Misra (pp 65,66)

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#28 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Post #26,
I remember a person fitting your description - he was a member of this forum, more than 10 years ago. I am not privileged to reveal his name, because he left the forum for whatever reason. I don't know whether you mean him. Sorry for creating a suspense.

But, since you brought my name into it, I shall clarify my position. If art - I mean CM - is to survive, thrive and evolve, curtailing over-indulgence in audio and video recordings is a must. Otherwise, we are bound to keep complaining for all times that there is no repeat of a tyAgarAja or MD. The artist has to realise his and the art's fullest potential and the ultimate goal - if one believes in it - of nAdOpAsana as a route to self-realization. Otherwise, we can only see diversification - into Rock etc - and duplication and not originality and substance.

PS : The practice of notating kRtis may serve the purpose of initial introduction to the kRti. But, if it is going to be ultimate solution for reproducing a kRti, then it will ultimately kill it by making the reproduction a robotic process. It is a fact that an artist cannot - substantially - repeat a performance. The emotional content can never remain same. Notation can give only contour.

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#29 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

".........Bharatanatyam  is no less a spiritual search than the Sanyasi’s way of renunciation. Yoga and Bharatanatyam  are both a means by which “with body, mind and soul we may pray to the Divine.” These great arts help us to divinize ourselves, to develop spiritual qualities of loyalty, fidelity, a sense of Dharma, discipline, awareness, sensitivity, strength, courage, skill, cooperation, diligence, health, happiness and well being, serenity and peacefulness of mind.

May the artistic community of this great nation of Bharat strive to keep the purity of its great cultural heritage intact, inspiring people in all times to follow the advice of the great Rishi Veda Vyasa, who exclaimed at the end of his great epic, the Mahabharatha:

“Oh man know this! Do your Dharma (Ordained virtuous duty)! Then Artha (wealth) and Kama (fulfillment of desire) shall automatically come to you. Having fulfilled yourself in Artha and Kama, you will then seek and obtain Moksha! Hence I say, “Do your Dharma and all else shall come automatically to you.”

BHARATANATYAM AND YOGA - By
Yogacharya Dr ANANDA BALAYOGI BHAVANANI and
Yogacharini Smt DEVASENA BHAVANANI

http://www.dhdi.free.fr/recherches/hori ... amyoga.htm

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#30 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

In continuation of post #27 -

Dramatist and spectator - (link given in post #21)

".......The rasas are expressed by the means of different types of acting so they are known as bhavas by the dramatists. As the different food items collectively are known as meal so the bhavas with acting are known as rasas. Neither rasas are devoid of bhavas nor the bhavas are devoid of rasas. As in the meal, the grains with association of other elements give taste so the bhavas and rasas pervade each other and become the object of aesthetic tasted Rasas and bhavas are related to each other like the seed of a tree and its fruit. As the seed lies in the root of the tree so the rasas lie in the root of the poetry or drama. The root is ultimately the consciousness of the poet which is of the nature of rasa (ananda). From there the poetry is expressed being generalized which pervades the heart of the spectator. The rasa lies in the consciousness of the spectator which is experienced through the knowledge (apoddhära buddhi) of vibhâva etc...."

बीजं यथा वृक्षमूलत्वेन स्थितं तथा रसाः ।

Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinavagupata - by Dr. Kailash Pati Misra (pp 90,91)

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#31 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 27 May 2020, 09:48 Post #26,
I remember a person fitting your description - he was a member of this forum, more than 10 years ago.
I don't think he was a member here! But I cannot be 100% sure, if he posted here with a handle not connected to his name! I know that he is no more since last 9 years.
vgovindan wrote: 27 May 2020, 09:48 curtailing over-indulgence in audio and video recordings is a must
Well whatever disrupted the original settings of villages etc, same "progress" gave us recordings. If for everything else we adapted, delivery of music alone cannot confine itself to the same ways. But to the credit of music community they have organized and brought musicians world over, wherever they went. "rasa" may be an unheard of word and all of them knew the "SAstra"/"sampradaya" aspect of it and wanted to preserve it and teach it to their children. Kutcheri format , now a sampradaya, was continued based on the reality that, that's how the rasikas know the music and that's what they expect. So it is not all recorded music as you think!

It is a different matter that we have devalued the word "sampradaya" ( so much for knowing meanings huh!) - edO sampradayattuku seyvadu or edO oru SAstrattuku panratu - etc.
vgovindan wrote: 27 May 2020, 09:48 of nAdOpAsana as a route to self-realization
Well, you talked about pathos in certain composition. Doing that today, would be like us projecting tyAgarAja's self imposed poverty to the world, making it a spectacle - as Satyajit Ray did with the poverty of Calcutta. Things like this make me hate the word "art".

SrI tyAgarAja lived a full life and took to sanyAs as per known/heard life history and his life and kritIs need to be celebrated! There is pathos naturally in the rAga as an indicator. But overdoing it in a musical performance is not ideal. To make it genuine a vidvAn will have to really work hard - that may be possible in specific cases, in specific settings where audience is up to it. Rest of them who have built their performance in a certain style , would tend to stick to their mode and that should be accepted.

There is adRSHTa phala (unseen benefits) in music as opposed to dance. Dr N Ramanathan in his articles on nATya Sastra says this implies some allusion to spirituality, but this could also be enjoyment of artistic subtleties and intellectual constructions in the minds of a rasika.

The abhinaya / bhava realm has been hijacked by mass media/movies and now made into virasa. Hence audience over time have lost sensitivity to appreciate them in today's existence and mindset. There is revival in last decade or so even in the commercial setting, as more parents get to see dance performances of touring artistes led by their children learning it.

But what is saving music is the robust SAstra and evolved styles of golden era. With more females learning than males, it is imperative that female musicians absorb the majesty, which is not actually a male only attribute, by becoming more expressive on stage. Absorb the explicit / implicit laya forcefulness. Make it more like concert and develop interaction with accompanists.

It is not just in India, but also in West, it is observed that the culture does not countenance a female speaker or presenter to show a bit of forcefulness or aggression.

Luckily that perception and acceptance is changing! And we are seeing young female artistes now excelling in this area. For sometime it was a toTTukkO toDaccukkO (lack lustre) or kaDanEnnu pADuvatu ( sing because one has to) performance by female artistes.
vgovindan wrote: 27 May 2020, 09:48 PS : The practice of notating kRtis ...
I think that may be due to pockets of mediocrity being promoted. If you cannot relate to any one of the accredited musician that has received good reviews here in this forum, you have a listening problem. You are looking for something else, that is not available in carnatic music platform. Whoever persons from other domains that you are quoting, should create a sampradaya of their own and develop an audience circuit of their own, instead of commenting adversely in general of existing sampradayas.

Most accomplished musicians even if they follow the pAThAntaram to honor the tradition, have embellishments. Many have added sangatIs. Now with all the ruckus that has been created, nobody is ever going to complain that pAThAntarams are being deviated from, in stage. They belong primarily in a classroom.

But with SrI dIkshitar kritis, pAThAntarams are being restored, in some cases for good. svAminatha paripAlaya is a recent example.

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#32 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

"....would be like us projecting tyAgarAja's self imposed poverty to the world..."

Mood is not same as 'situation'. As brought out in 'Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinavagupata' - (see the link given in post #21), a person enacting the role of rAma is not rAma himself. He creates the environment and not the person. Understanding the mood, helps in emoting. Those who understand the mood and sAhitya - like the example of MDR given in a parallel thread - will not disregard sAhitya (sangIta sAhitya stana-dvayA - MD). That sAhitya is not understood by many spectators, cannot be taken as applicable to artists too.

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#33 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

In continuation of post #30 -

Santa - nature of consciousness -

"......during the course of aesthetic experience the knots of T or egoity is temporarily removed, the knower gets rest in its own self, that is its universal state and the object of experience also appears in its universal form. In the universal state there is complete unity between the subject and object. Therefore in this state, the consciousness, temporarily experiences itself. Thus the Rasa, or the aesthetic experience is nothing other than the experience of the consciousness itself. Since consciousness in its universal state is one so rasa also can be only one. And Santa (perfection) is the nature of consciousness so there is only Santa rasa. Since consciousness is bliss, so the rasa is also bliss, in other words, it is pleasant, not of the nature of pain or suffering. And finally, Abhinavagupta rejects the objective status of Rasa. He says that when it is said that a particular rasa is experienced, it is only aupacarika (formal). Rasa is not experienced as object but it is the subject itself which is experienced......."

Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinavagupata - by Dr. Kailash Pati Misra (pp 115, 116) (link given in post #21)

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#34 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

SAnta and upaSAnta

What is described as SAnta in post #33, is also called 'upaSAnta'. In tirumUlar's tirumandiram, a whole chapter (verses - 2506 to 2511) is dedicated to upaSAnta. Link for tirumandiram is given below -

Verse 2506 -
முத்திக்கு வித்து முதலவன்தன் ஞானமே
பத்திக்கு வித்துப் பணிந்துற்றுப் பற்றலே
சித்திக்கு வித்துச் சிவபரந் தானாதல்
சத்திக்கு வித்துத் தனதுப சாந்தமே

Seed of mukti is knowledge of Primal One.
Seed of bhakti is intense adoration meek.
Seed of siddhi is Self, Siva-para becoming.
Seed of Sakti is state of upaSAnta.

(Translation by Dr. B Natarajan - Tirumantiram - Sri Ramakrisna Math, Mylapore publication)

https://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/Tiruman ... ishAll.pdf

tyAgarAja, in his kRti 'SAntamu lEka' (see link below) refers to 'upaSAnta - please see the ending word of last caraNa 'tanakupa' where 'upa' is to be joined to pallavi as 'upaSAnta'. (The caraNa is not to be terminated as 'tanakupa' but ended as 'tanaku' and 'upa' joined to pallavi as 'upaSAnta' - as a single word).

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

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#35 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

rasa is one only -

".......Abhinavagupta holds that aesthetic experience (rasa) is nothing other than the relish of samvit (consciousness) which is of the nature of bliss as it is perfect, non-dual and of universal nature. Since it is non-dual or one its relish (rasa) is also one. Therefore he propounds that Rasa as such is one. It is like Brahman or sphota. The different names of the rasa, like Srngàra, vïra etc, which are called the different kinds of Rasa, are ultimately only the modifications of one Rasa. He says that this is the reason that Bharata has used singular number in dealing with Rasa.

The different kinds of names given to rasa are according to its different evoking conditions. Rasa is ultimately one and so Bharata has used singular number. According to Kashmir Saiva Tantrism the nature of consciousness, in its original state, i.e., the state of perfection is spanda or Aham vimarsa, which is characterized as activity in stillness or in other words, as quietistic. Therefore from the view point of aesthetic experience, the relish or experience of this state is called Santa rasa (the quietistic).

Abhinavagupta considered Santa rasa as the one fundamental Rasa of which the other rasas are modifications. He called Santa the Maha rasa, the greatest rasa, as it is related to the highest goal of life, purusartha, which is Moksa. He says that the taste of all the rasas is of the nature of Santa because the rasa itself is non- worldly (alaukika) and being so it is devoid of mundane elements of desire, yearning etc., hence it is of the form of Santa. The sthayibhava, according to Abhinavagupta is the Atman itself.

In the process of creation the Atman identifies itself with citta and thus its functions are called cittavrttis. In this way Atman is the substratum of all the citta-vrttis which from the point of view of aesthetic experience are the different sthayibhavas or bhavas which turn into different forms of rasa, like srhgara, vira etc. Thus Santa is the prakrti of which rati, hasa etc. are the vikrtis (modifications).2 In favour of his thesis, Abhinavagupta says that in the older manuscripts of Natya sastra, the santa rasa was discussed as the first rasa, prior the discussion of other rasas.3 At least two verses of Natya sastra also favour this thesis....." (pp 154, 155)

SRngAra - etymology

"....The name, Srngara is given to this rasa on the basis of vyavahâra (worldly practice), âpta vâkya (old person's statement) and the tradition of the scholars of Nàtya sâstra. It is related to the young nature of higher man and woman. In the world the persons who wear clear and glamorous dresses and decorate themselves and are found involved in tasting rati (delight), are called Srngârl. Therefore the nâtyâcâryas have named the taste of rati as Srngara rasa......" (page 160)

(NB - சிங்காரம் - singAram - tatsama of SRngAra)

Aesthetic Philosophy of Abhinavagupata - by Dr. Kailash Pati Misra

http://www.gianfrancobertagni.it/materi ... mishra.pdf

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#36 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 28 May 2020, 20:41 (sangIta sAhitya stana-dvayA - MD). That sAhitya is not understood by many spectators, cannot be taken as applicable to artists too.
But we have to accept that musicians like MDR functioned amidst the larger setting of many artistes who captivated audience with their styled renditions. Only thing that was a lost opportunity was that, with all the claims about the requisite knowledge of the art, in those times, the core Audience of Mylapore and elsewhere should have engaged themselves more with many musicians than just the popular stars. That would have set a grander bar of a listening culture.

sAhitya and sangIta first should achieve parity in terms of sound and music. In lieu today's technical focus among musicians, this should be a priority. Musicians should be able to learn the sound correctly without knowing the language , since all languages are sanskritic languages.

MD's statement can as well be interpreted as sAhitya is music as well. This has solved many a critical conundrums like for example "kAma mOha dAsulai SrI rAmuni" being musically an ideal line for neraval - a query raised by TMK - we have discussed this before. SrI rAmuni can be replaced with teliyalEni, because both have yati (almost) and prAsa maitri(friendliness or affinity) - purely musical attributes. And that may not complete the meaning - but it resolves the conundrum. And other examples we have discussed in many threads.

Lyrics : definition is "words" set to "music". That quite doesn't fit here! There is already music in there. It is a conjoinment of two musical elements.

Lets first treat the sangIta (and the attendant SAstra/sampradAya) by itself as a complete system of knowledge and give the respect it deserves. Everything will fall in place and you will get a musician that will appeal to you.

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#37 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

नर्तक आत्मा - nartaka AtmA - Self is the dancer
रङ्गोन्तरात्मा - rangOntarAtmA - The stage is inner Self
प्रेक्षकानि इन्द्रियानि - prEkshakAni indriyAni - Audience are the sense organs.

Siva sUtra - explained

http://metaphysicalmusing.com/articles/ ... -09-12.htm

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#38 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

Gamaka in Indian music is itself SrngAra. It acts like the sakhi in the bhakti tradition (Guru in spiritual practice) that connects two svaras. It is like in the physical universe interaction between two particles is mediated by a third particle.

The word gamaka may be etymologically based on two svaras being connected - (as examples ga-ma).

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#39 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by RSR »

@thenpaanan
As a complete aside, I have to concede that physical, or more accurately (for this context) "carnal", love has been treated as being in a separate category from our other urges for ever in our history. Even the Buddha could not countenance it, even though it is just as natural and physical as the other forms of experience.
We have long had a fascination with celibacy that other cultures have not shared.
Celibacy and conquest of carnal desires is not unique to Hindu, Buddhist and Jain cultures alone.
It is an essential feature in Catholic Christianity.
The new Testament , the core of which is 'The Gospel according to St.Mathew' , does not have a single word about carnality. The very birth of Jesus is divine. Not out of carnal bond. 'Immaculate conception'. ( Nor does Bagavath Gita)
Just as Indian religious thought prescribes celibacy only for
monks , Catholic religion also prescribes it for Churchmen only.
The idea is to throw off all notions of 'mine' ( family , friends and such) and dedicate oneself to service of 'God' ( Dharidhra Naraayan' ) common people who need succour.

shankarank
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#40 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

sanyAsAshrama for monks is post vyAsa according to tradition and well known from SrI BhagavatpAda. But celibacy is a deeper concept. At the end of Mahabharata war, when SrI Krishna asks to revive the life of parIkshit in the Womb killed by asvattAma, he makes it conditional on the truth about his own naiShTika bramhacaryam. So he is a brahmacAri in his earthly appearance.

So it is not only for renowned monks! To pursue deeper philosophical inquiries, physical celibacy became necessary later on!

But in general, I don't see any obsession with celibacy in Bramhana traditions, and sanyAsa is NOT granted out indiscriminately.

vgovindan
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#41 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

Our ancient Rshis were not sannyAsis - they were our progenitors, which we recall as gOtra. brahmacarya is not about celibacy (the notion of celibacy - being unmarried - if that is what it means etymologically). It is about pursuit of the path of 'self realisation' - brahma - carya. And sanyAsa is not about any physicality - the robe. Even when one is a householder, he can be a sannyAsi. Neither taking alms is any prescribed sign of sannyAsa. Unfortunately, these terms 'brahmacarya' and 'sannyAsa' have got totally corrupted. kRshNa being a naishTika brahmacAri is not in conflict with his having 60000 wives - it's what one hankers about that matters and not that of those who hanker about one.

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#42 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by vgovindan »

About gamakas -
In Tamil, there are two words - இழைவு, குழைவு. I am at loss to translate these into English. It is about the tonality - which brings out the underlying bhAva. In the film Sankarabharanam, Sankara Iyer explains this to the teacher who mangles the rendition of the kRti 'brOcEvArevarurA' of Mysore Vasadevachar. If one takes cue from that, gamaka is not about what is defined. It is about spontaneity arising from the need to communicate - be it love, anger, disgust. If the artist understands the underlying pathos or emotion of every syllable of the word, phrase and sentence, a gamaka is born. This strict definition of gamakas may have value for learners, but, if an evolved artist is going to be constrained by these definitions, then music is just a zombie rendition. Unlike art form like 'painting' etc which are frozen in time, music is ever-evolving art which can never be frozen in time - like Youtube and audio recordings.

gamaka is the micro aspect of nAda transcending svaras. It is the இழைவு and குழைவு which defines the quality of music rendering - not about intellectual expeditions.

Ranganayaki
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#43 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by Ranganayaki »

Re. Loving all and celibacy:

https://youtu.be/T150XDxbhZM

shankarank
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#44 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 30 Jun 2020, 06:43 It is the இழைவு and குழைவு which defines the quality of music rendering - not about intellectual expeditions.
Well in the post golden era, even that was used as an appeal item by some musicians and became a trend! What would you say of that?

There is Karma and Gnana. Bhakti is an attribute that should be present through out?

An aspirant cannot aim to bring out bhakti or bhava. It has to come naturally, but that requires a half life of effort. During that phase, they have to be karmic about presentation of music, following sampradaya and lakshana.

Why Intellectual aspect be shunned? It has to be continuous with traditional thoughts of the same and evolve it in the direction of beauty - which again is defined by culture.

It is always understood that rAgA should lean towards bhAvA, and laya towards intellect, without compromising the jIvan of the svara. Neither should be done artificially! If one is not a nija-sAdhaka and indulges in laya, it will be like rote regurgitation. Oppikkira mAdhiri irukkum. Each musician chooses the mix based on their siksha and sAdhakam.

Otherwise if musicians bring some ordinary entertainment tricks to the table, we created that circumstance - they are not to be blamed. We have not adequately provided minimum viable support to the core of music and left them to fend for themselves!

If the music students tend to do reverse engineering thinking of a particular outcome, that is like doing science to get a Nobel prize! In this age when every bit of knowledge is commoditized ( that is the right term, not commercial), it is easy to even take emotional appeal in the same direction.

Emotion and intellect, are manifestations of the same creation, one from hormones, another from neural wiring! Don't think we need to privilege one of it as better.

The current generation is emotionally aloof! The cultural environment that fosters sensitivity no longer exists! The intellectual aspect of tradition comes to the rescue! They have to be engaged to begin with before the dialogue can be enlarged!

A visiting faculty of kalashEtra - a vINa vidvAn part of a fusion troop spilled the beans about MDR's music. "Those are all old sentiments and they are gone as technology has taken over people's minds!"

We have culturally local terminology, bhAvA and buddhi-chintana. Both should be fostered!

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#45 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 03 Jun 2020, 23:28 नर्तक आत्मा - nartaka AtmA - Self is the dancer
रङ्गोन्तरात्मा - rangOntarAtmA - The stage is inner Self
प्रेक्षकानि इन्द्रियानि - prEkshakAni indriyAni - Audience are the sense organs.

Siva sUtra - explained

http://metaphysicalmusing.com/articles/ ... -09-12.htm
Some where in this discourse - SrI Kanchi Mahaperiyavar explains the "folk" art of poikkAl kuthirai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poikkaal_Kuthirai_Aattam) quoting from Sri Rudram, aSvEbhyO ( Horse) aSvapatibhyO (Horse rider/operator) namah. paramAtma daRShana is in grAmeeya kala as well.

If by calling it "folk" art we privilege classical , lets not do that!

https://youtu.be/XCFGyHdUoYI

Will get timeline after scanning through once more.

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#46 Re: SRngAra - rasa - rasika

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 22 Apr 2020, 06:58 When she goes to bRndAvan to meet Goswamiji, she even states to him that there is only one male in bRndAvan - kRshNa; all others are rAdha only.
Now there is a biological parallel to this - as all foetuses are feminine to begin with and differentiation occurs later. And males have that imprint of that in their upper body also!

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