Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

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shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

Is this about being a Genius? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzvxclBmqZQ or this tradition?

The word parampara is more apt, as it carries with it the larger sense of transfer of the conscious of the system! It honours mAta, pitA and Guru all in the same vein!

But we use the term genius - oh it is all pre-programmed , we just need to find the right designer encoding, and there is a race for it.

Or even "tradition" - like it is just arbitrary tradition, just a habitual thing, some folky tribal practice without any reason or thought - the anthropoligical reduction!

There we remove, also the sacred!

vgovindan
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Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by vgovindan »

We seem to think that hearing is all about sound waves that hit one's ear drums. Our ancestors had a much better understanding of vibrations that are generic to nature - spanda, sphuraNa, Sabda, nAda, dhvani - these denote more than that is audible in nature. There is a story of Prahlada listening to Narada's words addressed to his (Prahlada's) mother. While she dozed off, Prahlada was listening in the womb. These may sound fantasy to scientifically trained minds, but it is not so. While we should keep at bay fanatical claims simply based on faith, the universe is much more deep than we cognise and feel. When musician and audience shake their heads, we are resonating (to the vibrations) - like the flock of birds in flight.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

There is no faith required to see the efficacy of the hard work that parents have done and teachers do, assuming they are true to their duties. If I cannot see that, I will have to improve my observational, cognitive , perceptive skills!

We have progressed into a society, where parents cannot be trusted. State intervenes! Just read on abuse when finally people live as a family during the lock down! Teachers cannot be either, else why would you have standard tests and ID numbers on exam papers (names removed!) and correction centers. Even that parents trace somehow using influences!

Computers will do it now! No worries. Objective choice questions!

I remember we used to write cricket commentary and rubbish in the Hindi paper (8th Grade!) just to make a devanAgari paragraph and many times the old man, a post retiree panditji who walked in via the back gate just for one class in the auditorium, used to give marks! Now no need!

I hated when physics (of the samaCiR kalvi variety - well it was MGR samacIr not the MK!) used to be essays and not a single problem - so rural students could pass!

Carnatic music! That is why parents are crazy after contests and competitions. They want to be sure the teacher is teaching! They are not sure ;)

As regards ancestors, we do hold SrI tyAgaraja as saintly and all that. But if he were to visit us, hypothetically during lock down when we have all the time to spend with him, would we be able to put up with him? His tanjavoor maDi would drive us crazy! :lol:

His works are still to held sacred though? That has nothing to do with whether his body and it's actions are compatible with us.

You see now inspiring videos, where grand children are playing cello and violin on the patio to locked up grandmas. How many times will you see a grandpa, Grandma going with the teen to Taylor Swift concert in the stadium. Even the father ( from India) bought the ticket for just his kid and Mom to escort, to save the money! He didn't go in. Even if the grand parents want to go in out of curiosity, will that be any fulfilling - lasting?

Now only Grandpas / Grandmas come to Carnatic concert, largely, but children should ideally have no issues coming in! We just have to inculcate the idea of sacredness - and it is not about lyrics speaking virtues of gods!

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 09 Apr 2020, 06:48 I was watching a video lecture by a male dancer - Sri Vaibhav Arekar on 'Male perspective on SRngAra' - the link is here -

https://youtu.be/FfrJ4z7K3hk

He describes his life journey in brief - some of his observations made me sit up and compare with those who want to break traditions - not for art's sake, but for the sake of breaking.
It is a truism that artists who are deeply immersed in their art rarely speak verbally about it and let their art "speak". From my own personal perspective, it takes a tremendous effort to articulate in words the emotions that artful music stirs. But one thing is clear -- we constantly strive (and I think this is universal) to extract more and more satisfaction from whatever our chosen art form is, and invariably that means taking it to the fringes of that art form. Some of us take that last step and step outside (and even come back in) and some of us don't.
vgovindan wrote: 09 Apr 2020, 06:48
I will take two kRtis - ennALLu UrakE' of tyAgarAja - if you can understand the intensity of this kRti, to say that tyAgarAja created sangatis in his kRtis may not be totally true. Did he render this kRti to his ishTa dEvata in a concert style? Yes, not all kRtis are such intense. There are a lot which are more 'artistic' than intense. But rAma was his audience, first. No more comments.
Yes but there is a certain joy in trying to communicate it even if it feels impossible to do so substantially. Once I sang "mOhana rAma" at a tyAgarAja ArAdhanai where I tried to explain before singing the song the nuances of the song -- the way one has to emotionally become tyAgarAja in his relation to rAmA to truly experience the emotion in that song. I opined that the common way of singing the song with breezy and predetermined sangatis robs the song of its depth -- when the organizer abruptly cut in and said "please stop talking and start singing". At first I was in an internal rage about it but later when I calmed down I realized there would have been someone in the audience who appreciated the explanation (in fact, I borrowed heavily from your translation in tyAgarAja vaibhavam). And that thought is enough. That I was able to transmit that strange and indescribable feeling that comes from the art to someone else added something like satisfaction to my euphoria.
vgovindan wrote: 09 Apr 2020, 06:48
What is 'rasa' that we all yearn for when we see an art or hear an artist?
Rasa is indescribable like any profound state of mind -- different for each person. For me it is a combination of acute agony and euphoria and I am sure it is different for you or someone else. But whatever it is, one thing is common -- it draws us all in, albeit in different ways. And its effect is inexplicable -- why a certain pattern of notes called tODi should cause this state of mind in some of us defies explanation. I've long given up trying to explain it. I just take it with gratitude.

-T

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/Es04SHxFae4?t=1656

This rendition of bhajarE rE citta – a memory of old tarangini recording of SrI K.J. Jesudas – for many like me who come from the outside is indeed a case study. I like the appeal it tries to make.

Did Subbarama dikshitar notate the jArus like in jambUpatE in Yamuna kalyANI? :lol: He is being true to the Avarta patterns laid out in here: http://ibiblio.org/guruguha/ssp_7to12.pdf Page 1161.


miSra jAti Eka tALa, almost sung as miSra cAPu with samam. If it were really miSra Ekam, it would almost be in a drupad pace, and could go into yaman. Not quite the historian curative art monger that he wants to be, seeking original sources!

May be we ought to give it to Kanniks KannikEswaran to do a dhrupad ensemble!

Contemporary renditions have progressed to kutcheri style , more compact, but yet still slow paced take in miSra cApu.
There was KVN in 1975 centenary with UKS: https://youtu.be/9ueQRHndUkU

Recently there was Tiruvarur Girish : https://youtu.be/jhA0Uh5wpX0?t=4991 with HKV and Yella /Radhakrishnan support. Something interesting I noted is the take on “aruNAm” as atItam (pre-beat). https://youtu.be/jhA0Uh5wpX0?t=5014

That brings us to the question of Avarta asymmetry issue in this notation: http://ibiblio.org/guruguha/ssp_7to12.pdf - Page 1161 :

aruNAm , nityAm goes for 5 avaRtAs due to lack of atItam until SarvANIm and more time given to some syllables. Odd number of avartas are exceptions like in SrI mAnini manOhara. Not allowed – traditional limits for you – transgressed!

However this neraval opens up additional possibilities. https://youtu.be/9ueQRHndUkU?t=877

Before aruNAm goes for atItam, the previous line daksha caraNAm – the caraNAm can become atItam. daksha is after all, two short syllables with a samyuktAkshara ( 2 consonants) demanding a gripping pause.

With that providing space, in the line starting as arUNAm, all of them, arUNAm , nityAM, kalyANIm along with SarvANIm - all become atIta making a yati maitri across all avartAs and giving the dIrgha extra space to make rAga speak.

There was an instance of Avarta asymmetry solved by SrI Rallapalli Anantakrishna Sarma as mentioned by @keerthi in an old post. At least we owe it to his award of SK or his scholarship to try and change this as well.

That makes the line nijarUpa immensely neraval-able.

||da,,,,, |ksha,,, |, cara, || Nam

In the neraval , or even in sangatis , daksha can be taken ½ akshara atIta to make an effect using the ½ liberty in either direction.

The caraNams all suggest such atItam treatment, with caturvEda, bhakti bIjOdbhava, SarIriNIm, vihAriNIm all atItam. svarUpiNIm is missed here again and needs to be atItam on sva || rU to preserve yati maitritvam.

TMK’s rendition has it’s own sweetness, with rhythm muted. Hey if it was Jesudas for me, let it be TMK for some to get this music.

But he seem want to make his point. The music then was not as nice in some ways to listen to, as it is now ( in kutcheri era) – where oppressive forces have redefined aesthetics! And indeed he is the redeemer!

https://youtu.be/Es04SHxFae4?t=1656

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Today I found time to go through the many points raised by the rasikas on this topic. This certainly is a most interesting topic for discussion.

I for one am a largely impartial listener of music. As a student of music, I considered it imperative that I keep no favourites, and listen and learn from every musician. So, I have heard the "Traditionalist" SSI, "Maverick" BMK and "Modernist" TMK and have enjoyed all their music equally!

The question we must first ask ourselves is "What is tradition?" Is it something set in stone, that can never be altered, or is it in itself fluid, and capable of change? What constitutes tradition? How old can a particular style of doing something be practiced before it becomes a tradition? These are questions that need answering.

As for the concert paddhati that many musicians and rasikas assiduouly adhere to, is it really a success? Consider these points-

1. According to this paddhati, how a musician presents a composition depends on that composition's position in the concert. So, the artiste does not give enough weightage to how the composition has been designed, and its framework, while presenting that composition. Case in point, in a concert by the major architect of this paddhati, ARI that I had teh opportunity to listen to, Rama Ninnu Nammina was sung so slowly just because it was the main piece of the concert, that layam and pace lost all meaning! The song is plaintive, true, but not as plaitive as that!! Another example, Purnachandrika is a ragam that is not taken for elaborate presentation generally, and so we hear Telisi Rama Chintanato sung like there's no tomorrow. The concept of presenting a krithi or varnam considering the 'slot' it has been allotted in a 3 hour recital, makes no sense to me. Why should the position of a krithi in a concert matter more than its ragabhavam and sahityabhavam?

2. The explanation given for why a Varnam is presented first, is that it is an energising piece that invigorates the audience and sets the tone for the rest of the concert, again does not make much sense. Is the audience there to enjoy and take in the music, or run a three hour long race? However, we must admit that singing a varnam first makes the vocalist's job very much easier (A Taana varnam undoubtedly is a fantastic piece for a throat warm-up). Thus, artistes who do sing a varnam can certainly do so. This however should not mean that artistes who don't present a varnam at the beginning are committing sacrilege.

3. Another problem with this paddhati, as mentioned earlier, is how Vinayaka krithis are seldom presented as main pieces, since another has already been sung as an invocatory piece. Again, why? If an artiste chooses to present Karikalabhamukham (Saveri), or Gajaananam Ganapatim (Thodi) as a main piece, it ought not to be an issue. Because what matters is how well it has been presented, how well the Raga Bhavam and Sahitya Bhavam has been brought out. Besides, even for the religiously minded, who feel that Ganesha is prathama poojitha, and other deities also need to be worshipped through CM, I'd like to say- "आकाशात् पतितं तोयं यथा गच्छति सागरम् । सर्वदेवनमस्कारः केशवं प्रति गच्छति ॥"

4. The time bound nature of this paddhati has lead to the loss of many compositional forms, ragams, e.t.c. As art historian V Sriram likes to keep saying, we have, over the last 70 years, witnessed the near-complete extermination of the padam, since there is no time after a main piece to sing a langorous padam, and to present such an erotic piece as a main piece is again sacrilege!! Ragams like Manji, which absolutely cannot be sung fast, are gone (When's the last time we heard a sufficienly long alapanam or neraval to any krithi in Manji?).

According to me, in the long run this kutcheri paddhati was an unmitigated disaster! In the quest to present a variety of pieces, a variety of ragams within a shorter time, we have actually lost more than we gained! If it has stuck till now, its only because so many musicians stubbornly followed it for so long, that we don't notice its flaws any more because we are conditioned to it.

I enjoy listening to concerts by the legends of yore sung it this paddhati, but that does not mean that I shall shy away from observing and pointing out what I feel are flaws in this kutcheri template. TMK does the same. Is he disrespecting the legends of the past? Certainly not. He is, however conscious of these flaws, and is trying to overcome them. Thus, what TMK is doing is essentially what ARI also did! He noticed a flaw in the existing system, and is trying to address it. So, if you consider ARI traditional, then TMK is too!

Now, as to whether this kutcheri padhhati is traditional, I draw your attention to V Bhatkande's notes on his CM study tour of South India written around the same time as the SSP. He describes a kutcheri he attended, and its format was completely different from what is heard today! One point he highlighted was how ragalapanams were presented as standalone pieces! Also, the concert format of every artiste used to be different! There was much more variety then than now, even though it is said that the modern kutcheri format was born out of the necessity to introduce more variety in concerts. Thus, the modern paddhati is not very old either! This paddhati was discussed and adopted by leading musicians in an early academic session of the Music Academy (I forget the date). To me its just a convention, that needn't be followed as if it is some form of divine law.

To me, the only traditions that matter are-

1. Not changing the ragam
2. Not changing the thalam
3. Not changing the sahityam
4. Shruthi Shuddham
5. Laya Shuddam
6. According due importance to the ragabhavam and sahityabhavam while presenting the composition
7. Proper padagarbham (Not very strictly, but to a good extent)


Actual manuscripts like the Natyashastra, Sangita Ratnakara e.t.c (which surely can be considered traditional!) too show how CM was flexible and not bounded by regulations apart from these. Our culture and tradition has always been open to change and innovation, and to curtail it in the name of tradition is not correct!

So, if I was asked unto what extent do the confines of tradition reign, I would say that tradition is not meant to confine the art! Like the art itself, traditions too change and evolve, and the tradition that ultimately reigns over all is the tradition of welcoming change and respecting innovation!

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

It would not be far off the mark to say that the Sabha music phenomenon began around 1930. It would be apt to consider 1930 to 1970 as the first phase and 1970 to 2010 as the second phase. The first phase had about 100 widely admired and respected CM vocalists and instrument players. We can take them as the reference standard. That is what can be termed 'tradition'.
The ARI pattern for sabha concerts was followed by almost all the musicians. They were all experts and most of them had gurukulam training.
The ARI pattern does allow for moderate manodharma music. It gives equal importance to great CM composers not merely for their music but to the theme of their compositions firmly rooted in devotion to Hindu Pantheon. and tradition.
Even the lighter 'dance music romantic' pieces were based on deities.
Leading vocalist of that era eschewed lewd compositions carefully.
Even the 'thukkadas were devotional and rarely about romantic stuff.
All the vocalists swore by Purandaradasa, Badrachalam Ramadasu, Shyama Sastry, Thyagaraja Swami and Muthuswami Dikshitar, Not one among these composers was a-theist .or even agnostic.
T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai said that Devotion to Deity is the foundation for CM. Bakthi yoga is surely against mere rituals, caste or religious discrimination and injustice. It is against 'Nara sthuthi'. It is full of compassion for all living beings .

ARI pattern gives equal importance to all the languages of CM
like Telugu ( primary), Sanskrit , Kannada and Thamizh. and in the 'thukkada' section to Hindi and Marathi as well
Some great musicians like Musiri, MaNi Iyer ,and GNB for instance , are loved and remembered by the lay rasikas more for such thukkadas in plates than their more erudite renditions of kruthis and RTP.,
CM is essentially based on Devotional music. Even prior to the emergence of Sabha culture, legendary vocalists sang only the compositions of the Trinity, their forerunners and near contemporaries.
It is only the zamindari court group , that gave more importance to dance music.
Thus defined, 'tradition' is like Good grammar and style as in Literature following great masters .
Even in the post-1970 decades, most musicians are pious and theists . and true disciples of their senior gurus.
Just one or two vocalists are breaching that 'tradition' in the garb of pseudo social justice and such .Best to ignore them.
------------
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Let Smt.MS's presidential address in Music academy be our guide. ( It is in Thamizh)

https://mssgems.blogspot.com/2019/08/sm ... ademy.html


It is not at all religious bigotry. One can be steeped in deep spiritual values , classicism and humanism and still be a great musician ,as exemplified by Smt.MS
Traditional customs give grace to our common life. Let us learn to discern good things in tradition and preserve them from the onslaught of vandals and philistines. .

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 27 Jan 2021, 23:51
Case in point, in a concert by the major architect of this paddhati, ARI that I had teh opportunity to listen to, Rama Ninnu Nammina was sung so slowly just because it was the main piece of the concert, that layam and pace lost all meaning! The song is plaintive, true, but not as plaitive as that!! Another example, Purnachandrika is a ragam that is not taken for elaborate presentation generally, and so we hear Telisi Rama Chintanato sung like there's no tomorrow. The concept of presenting a krithi or varnam considering the 'slot' it has been allotted in a 3 hour recital, makes no sense to me. Why should the position of a krithi in a concert matter more than its ragabhavam and sahityabhavam?
But what about the musical aspect of being able to hear the same kriti rendered with different kala pramanams? Doesn't that count for anything?
According to me, in the long run this kutcheri paddhati was an unmitigated disaster! In the quest to present a variety of pieces, a variety of ragams within a shorter time, we have actually lost more than we gained! If it has stuck till now, its only because so many musicians stubbornly followed it for so long, that we don't notice its flaws any more because we are conditioned to it.
Think you are discounting what we have gained and being dismissive about a few generations of musicians and rasikas

Ananthakrishna
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Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:38

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

sureshvv wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 12:15
But what about the musical aspect of being able to hear the same kriti rendered with different kala pramanams? Doesn't that count for anything?
Since we are unaware of what kalapramanams the great composers of the past sang their compositions (except Dikshitar who is known to have composed many compositions in Chowka Kalam), we need to choose one that best reflects the bhavam of the composition, and hearing the same krithi at different kalapramanams according to me is unnecessary, since there is no point in stretching a composition, to demonstrate different layams and kalapramanams and sacrificing the bhavam in the composition in that process. Singing Bantureethi or Telisi Rama in breakneck speeds goes to show the artist's virtuosity, but that cannot take precedence over the bhavam of the composition.

Let the kalapramanam chosen depend upon the needs of the composition, is what I say!
sureshvv wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 12:15
Think you are discounting what we have gained and being dismissive about a few generations of musicians and rasikas
If my message has come across like that, I am extremely sorry. I deeply respect the distinguished musicians and rasikas of the past and the present, and also their contributions but however, I feel that the concert paddhati limited many musicians from expressing themselves, and also impacted the way ragams are viewed and presented, adversely.

We have undoubted gained much over the years, but surely we can also studied what we have lost? In my opinion the gains, which have been expressed very well by the knowledgeable rasikas on this forum, do not outweigh the losses.

I had a discussion with a learned friend of mine, who like me is critical of the modern kutcheri format. She spoke of two other problems with it she faces as a practicing musician-

1. The lack of freedom and flexibility- She says that anytime she deviates even a bit from this padhati, the criticism she receives and reviews she got were very demotivating. The way this paddhati became a scaffolding beyond which experimentation is not allowed is something she does not like.

2. The loss of alternate styles and paddhatis- She says that this paddhati has somehow led to the gradual extinction of alternate paddhatis and banis. Due to the time bound slotted nature of the pieces performed, much of the once widepread Veena and Nagaswaram influence have been lost over time, so much so that now Veena and Nagaswaram artistes too have to bend down to this format!

I also maintain, and this I have myself corroborated to the best of my abilities, that the Indian traditions and values have never been maintained like edicts carved on stone. There always was freedom to question, and that's a tradition that we ought not to lose.

shreyas
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shreyas »

It has been a very long time since I checked this topic, and so I've had to read through all the new posts, including those by Ananthakrishna. According to me, he makes some very salient points. I personally believe that Ariyakudi's paddhati was far from an improvement. While I don't mind the Varnam being given at least some place in the tightly-knit concert format, what beats me is why it must be sung hurriedly even if it is at the beginning of a concert.

Just yesterday, I was listening to M D Ramanathan's rendition of the evergreen Vanajakshi Ninnekori; Gopalayyar's varnam in Kalyani. It wasn't a jaded six-minute ballistic rendition like what we hear doled out to this varnam today; it was a consummate twenty-minute presentation with thoughtful pauses, delightful vocalist-violinist interactions and some delectable swarams at the end. The next piece was a solid Kedaram, again with ragam and swaram, and this was followed by a leisurely Darbar alapana preceding Yochana Kamalalochana. While we are accustomed to hearing this krithi presented at jet speed, listening to that rendition made me realise just how much of both the raga bhavam and sahitya bhavam we are losing by doing so. Ariyakudi has rendered Yochana at the common speed (a quick Sangeethapriya search informs me of this), and it is quite possible that he started the tradition himself [citation needed]. The MDR concert continued with an O jagadamba, once again in a regal gait, and a Ragam Thanam Pallavi in Kharaharapriya. At the end of the concert, I put my headphones down feeling satisfied; that I had listened to a concert in all its glory.

On the other hand, listening to Ariyakudi makes me feel the opposite. While I can discern flashes of brilliance throughout the concert, I leave the concert feeling like I have just listened to a strange compilation and not a full concert. Singing 30 krithis in a 3 hour concert ensures that in your quest for 'janaranjakam', so to speak, you are losing out on presenting the krithi the way it is supposed to be sung. While it is technically one's own choice at what kalapramanam to render a krithi, some of them (as @Ananthakrishna put it), just don't work. Singing Enthavedukondu Raghava at MSS' or Yesudas' pace is completely devaluing the sahityam of the song - same with both of their firing brighas in Ninnuvina Namadiyendu. Why must any krithi be reduced to the position of 'filler'? This is purely because of the modern concert format.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

What you are missing is that listening to a Kucheri is not just a musical experience, it is an immersive and emotional experience. The mood is actually created and shared by the performing artistes - not just doled out from a container they inherited from posterity. The Ariyakudi format was wildly successful mainly because it emphasized all these aspects.

So statements like
Let the kalapramanam chosen depend upon the needs of the composition, is what I say!
do not hold much water. These needs are dynamically determined by the performers and audience at the time of the concert. Just listen to MMI and MDR sing the same composition.

sankark
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Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

IMO the ARI paddathi denigrants protesteth too much. MDR didn't aspire (I surmise) to be popular or care two hoots for criticism (believe SSI/establishment was against MDRs music and MDR didn't change) about his style and stuck to his guns? If one wants to make a break and be iconoclast or try things nee, one has to take them on the chin and labor on instead of lamenting/chafe at the tradition/criticism.

MDRs concert above still folowed the ARI paddathi tailored to MDRs manOdharmam/strengths/ideas. Any artiste can choose to do so and trade off their values/priorities.

AVR or NandithaRavi for instance ensure a padam in many a concert. And I think many artists don't want to take up RTP in regular concerts, forget something extempore (even if it were to be short of perfect) - be it RS or Arkay or others but reserve it for special concerts/season in Academy.

Also, if RTPs were that common then they may lose their big status and allure too.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

https://youtu.be/k9JXFHEO2vs

I wish to draw your attention to what eminent musician Saketharaman has said around 12:34 here.

The whole video is actually very interesting and illuminating. The portion from 12:34 is most relevant in the context of this discussion.

There is no doubt that MDR did also use the ARI kutcheri format, and did attempt to tailor it to suit his style, but then, what he ended up presenting, in no way was it the ARI paddhati. The importance ascribed to the bhavam of the composition in MDR's concert template is certainly lacking in ARI's.

My problem in the end is not only that ARI's kutcheri template has in many places forced musicians to tamper with the ragabhavam and sahityabhavam. It is also that it is now being forced on all musicians. They should not face undue criticism just because they want to correct perceived flaws in the existing system.

Also, regarding the 'erotic' and 'lewd' poetry like Padams, Javalis e.t.c, we are all aware of the history of CM before ARI's time, when Bangalore Nagarathnamma, Coimbatore Tayi, Madurai Shanmughavadivu (mother of MS amma) ruled the stage. I am referring to the doyens and legends of the gramophone era. They presented padams and javalis frequently in kutcheris! Also Tyagaraja has composed so many excellent compositions using the Sringara Rasa (Nouka Charitram), which are now lost because this paddhati is entirely Bhakti rasa centric. Bhakti is indeed essential for music, doesn't mean Sringaram is inferior. When Tyagaraja, the epitome of Bhakti, Narada incarnate, composed entire operas in CM on Sringara rasam, surely that too is an integral part of CM as much as Bhakti is. This sadly the ARI paddhati does not recognize.


Some rare recordings of other legends from this time like Muttaiah Bhagavathar, Mysuru Vasudevacharya e.t.c are also available to us. We cannot negate their styles, and only study ARI's kutcheri paddhati and call it the only authoritative tradition.
Last edited by Ananthakrishna on 01 Feb 2021, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-63
-------
1) JaavaLi, Tillaanaa and padhams refer to the pattern of MUSICAL composition. Not about the lyrics and theme.
---
2) When there are over 700 kruthis by Thyagaraja Swami ( 'Thinking loud' blog , lists about 990 kruthis with audio clips for each), people have to cite the Boat series of about 25 songs to prove that Thyagaraja Swami wrote carnal and lewd stuff! Real study of the meaning of Thyagaraja Swamy's lyrics , will surely make one to reject atleast a few of the songs in the boat set. It may be wondered if any of the vocalists of the Golden Era ( 1930-1970) ever sang any of those kruthis in public concerts. They were cultured.
Similarly, there is just one song by Shyama Sastry , ( couched in decent language ) an epistle to Varadharaja by a damsel- among the 75 songs by him available . --of very doubtful authenticity.
--------------------------
If one wants only manodharma music without lyrics, ( Thyagaraja Swami is said to have done an alaapana in a ragam for more than two hours when he visited Manali(?). why not adopt that as trademark and see the result.?
CM in sabhas must not be confused with court-music/ chamber music nor with bajan-mandali music! And note the difference between 'romantic' and 'lewd.' It is about the words and scenes in the song. Not about the tune and beat.
Most kruthis of the Trinity , when sung as is, hardly exceed 2 or 3 minutes!
Vidwans of that mindset of 'pure music', ( no lyrics) can announce beforehand that there wont be any kruthi singing but only ragam elaboration as in any HM concerts and see the response from general public , for themselves.
They may have to sing for themselves.
Moderation is the essence. Neither far-left nor far-right but just right of center in CM ( meaning, that manodharma music is given its due place - where as left-of-center may rule out any manoharmam at all ).

.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 27 Jan 2021, 23:51 Another example, Purnachandrika is a ragam that is not taken for elaborate presentation generally, and so we hear Telisi Rama Chintanato sung like there's no tomorrow.
Is this good enough? youtube.com/watch?v=mHpEiKwfbr8 . Slower than this? And there is alapana too. Another one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3HSjtF0MMY

In mechanical engineering there used to be a joke! A Grad student will publish a paper with a lathe running at certain RPM say 600. Another student then says it is not the same when run at + 200 RPM and will publish another paper. May be that musicians who always sang at a certain speed will have to specially practice singing at a lower speed, as that is a "different" music and cannot be rendered from the practice of faster speed! It is a kind of sheet music with preset metronome speed or what?

Illenna adukellam layam nanna niKKaNumO ennamo?

Ananthakrishna wrote: 27 Jan 2021, 23:51 witnessed the near-complete extermination of the padam
https://youtu.be/GfU2eH93bbE?t=108

Smt T. Brinda lists what is demanded of it. One has to adhere to Sruti and sing kritis for many years and a develop the required saareeram for it. Else it won't stand. And in general to improve one's music, one has to give up other studies!

And I suppose people will have to train in that school and have the devotion to the musical values of such a school.

In current times, we have reduced what is "Carnatic Music" to some rudimentary parameters. Alapana, some kriti, neraval if possible, svarams - if all this happens - it is Carnatic music. It doesn't happen in Bhajan mELas you see. Just an easy differentiator.

Since we have stamped it, we also discuss ARI format like , he sings a vaRNam, he sings on Ganapati, he sings a pURvikalyANI/pantuvarALi, and one pancaratnam and so on. This is how cosmetically we describe the format also.

Both these have allowed a lot of people to ascend the stage and become musicians, with no conviction developed.

All points to lack of patronage at some point! And then when bunch of socialites enter to sponsor concerts, it is like the Short Squeeze in the stock market. A worthless music ( like the stock) is billed up in price, with bunch of insiders ganging up when others have shorted it :lol: !

shreyas
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shreyas »

I agree with the point about moderation. However, as I have discussed before, the ARI format has also led to neraval getting severely shortchanged, as it did the rise of more spurious Dikshithar krithis, perhaps because the genuine gems like Kasi Vishweshwara Ehi and Sri Mangalambike were deemed too 'boring' to be performed in a concert. At some point, there needs to be a reasonable trade-off between what appeals to the audience and what holds water as a Carnatic composition. You can't sing a concert full of film music and '2-3 minute long trinity compositions' just because they are pleasing to the audience, nor can you sing three hours of alapanas and thanams (although I would personally welcome the latter).

On another note, as a converse to the argument put forth in #64 by @RSR, quoting the 25 odd Tyagaraja compositions that might be called lewd only strengthens the argument for shringara to be more widely used. If even someone who was such a poster-child for the bhakthi movement composed krithis in the shringara theme, shouldn't that indicate that there is nothing inherently wrong with it? While Kshetrayya is the consummate 'padam' composer, Annamacharya himself has also written padams. In fact, the padam is said to be one of the oldest forms of Carnatic music. The ARI format has systematically excluded the padam by reducing it to post-main status.

Why can't people sing padams as mains? Why is it considered sacrilegious to do so? Because ARI didn't want people to. This is where it gets problematic. I'm not denying that the ARI format has its plusses (and did lead to greater acceptance by the 'masses') but it isn't the last word on Carnatic music.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

The use of Sringara rasam in Tyagaraja's compositions is not limited to the Nowka Charitram. In fact, it is the opinion of a few learned musicologists that Tyagaraja has also composed the earliest Javali known to us!

A link to an excellent talk on the same topic is given below- (Speaker: V Sriram)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAPUXTsaR3A&t=1s
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The discussion of whether Sringaram is an important aspect of CM is a topic that is, though related to the one under discussion at present, perhaps best debated elsewhere.

But however, I can't help that notice that most of the proponents of this paddhati are selecting one tradition and negating all other ones. Also, CM was heavily influenced by Court music, by the Bhajana Sampradayam, the Zamindari music. We cannot negate these influences and justify it by calling this 'uncultured'. 'Culture' is not unidimensional, and the day we negate influences, ideas and thoughts, by calling them uncultured is the day that we become uncultured ourselves.

Same goes for paddhatis and sampradayams. Sacredness ought not to be mistaken for unbreakable laws. I greatly respect ARI and his contributions, but I should not, atleast for the sake of impartiality and unbiased thinking if not for anything else, willingly turn away from questioning some points, and pointing out what I find to be flaws in the system and experiment to try overcome them. And I should certainly not be reprimanded for doing nothing more than critically study and try to broaden an art form that I hold very dear! Recall the Tarkashastra! Debate, innovation and experimentation was never criticised in the past! Accepting various thoughts and viewpoints was also a tradition!

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 12:02 There is no doubt that MDR did also use the ARI kutcheri format, and did attempt to tailor it to suit his style, but then, what he ended up presenting, in no way was it the ARI paddhati. The importance ascribed to the bhavam of the composition in MDR's concert template is certainly lacking in ARI's.
Seems like your definition of ARI paddhati is all that you don't like about CM as currently practiced :D

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

sureshvv wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 18:30
Seems like your definition of ARI paddhati is all that you don't like about CM as currently practiced :D
I assure you that that's not what I mean by the ARI paddhati at all! I do recognize that there were, and are several good points in favour of the ARI paddhati. These have been raised by other distinguished rasikas on this forum, and I do not dispute them.

For me, the inherent flaws in the ARI paddhati are a secondary concern. I spoke of my concerns with these flaws only to later come to a more important point, which I shall say now.

(Apologies in advance if I seem rude, that is not my intention at all.)

I think the public and musicians insistence on the ARI paddhati is symptomatic of a larger problem, that of not willing to accept change, and avoiding experimentation and innovation and inadvertently reducing the expressions of the artiste (and eventually stagnating the evolution of the art form) in the name of traditions.

Artistic conventions should not be mistaken for traditions and hard-set rules, even if at a given point of time every musician followed them. The essential rules of CM address the ragadevata, layadevata and sahityadevata, and not the format and slots of a concert performance. That should be left to the artiste's discretion, and not needlessly criticised as being irreverant to the legends of the past.

sankark
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 20:58 I think the public and musicians insistence on the ARI paddhati is symptomatic of a larger problem, that of not willing to accept change, and avoiding experimentation and innovation and inadvertently reducing the expressions of the artiste (and eventually stagnating the evolution of the art form) in the name of traditions.
While public's insistence is a problem - in the current COVID fueled more open to online world - which of those artistes that are constrained by ARI's paddhathi have released their non-ARI paddhathi creative concerts/performances online to showcase the alternatives, so the public gets exposed to the new?

They could stick to the paddhathi to get the traditional sabha slots but what prevents them from alternates online? To keep two different tracks - one adhering to the zeitgest and one creating a new?

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

sankark wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 22:21
While public's insistence is a problem - in the current COVID fueled more open to online world - which of those artistes that are constrained by ARI's paddhathi have released their non-ARI paddhathi creative concerts/performances online to showcase the alternatives, so the public gets exposed to the new?

They could stick to the paddhathi to get the traditional sabha slots but what prevents them from alternates online? To keep two different tracks - one adhering to the zeitgest and one creating a new?
Even in the online format, the rasikas listening to the music are the same! Also there is the problem of conditioning. Even the musicians have become conditioned to this style of presenting a concert, and past experiences have taught them not to innovate, else their music loses appreciation.

What you have suggested is a good idea, but again, given that in an online forum, you get 10 times the criticism you'd get for the same "creative concert" in a Sabha because it is more open, to a larger number of rasikas, I doubt it'd work in practice!
I very much hope that artistes implement this idea of yours! @sankark

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

1) Regarding- Boat Song- It is out of sync with 99% of Thyagaraja Swami's kruthis. No eminent vocalist of 1930-1970 decades is known to have sung any of those songs in concert platform
In fact Thyagaraja Swami has rebuked his students if they showed any tendency for such songs. ( Ref: srinivasaraos blog posts on Thyagaraja)
2) I am firm in my conviction that the Trinity never gave any composition , in jaavaLi and padham genre. I have read the translation of all the kruthis of the trinity.
3) The Trinity did not sing in royal courts
In that sense, they extricated Carnatic music from mere virtuosity and entertainment and channeled it into Devotion path.
--------------------
Do's and Dont's of Good culture evolve over many centuries and we are guided by great souls. Certain things are out of bounds for experimentation for just novelty's sake.
------------------------
Sabha music , in contrast to temple music performance, has twin objectives- giving the common public, wholesome and elevating experience through classical music and the more important feature being that it is also partly-financial ., It cannot be free.
There are said to be hundreds of sabhas in Chennai and the experimentation can be done in one of them to assess the acceptance and impact. -many of such sabhas offer free concerts
--Bye.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 02 Feb 2021, 00:23 1) Regarding- Boat Song- It is out of sync with 99% of Thyagaraja Swami's kruthis. No eminent vocalist of 1930-1970 decades is known to have sung any of those songs in concert platform
In fact Thyagaraja Swami has rebuked his students if they showed any tendency for such songs. ( Ref: srinivasaraos blog posts on Thyagaraja)
Tyagaraja's Sringaram compositions are not limited to the Nouka Charitram. Also, several of his disciples set their compositions in the Sringara rasam, such as Veena Kuppayya, Walajpet Venkataramana Bhagavathulu, and even his own close cousin Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbayya. If Tyagaraja was so averse to Sringaram, his disciples would not have used Sringara rasam as prolifically as they have. If musicians of the past have not sung them, its speaks not of Tyagaraja's aversion to Sringaram, but our aversion to render them, and a tendency of looking at things through the lens of victorian morals.
2) I am firm in my conviction that the Trinity never gave any composition , in jaavaLi and padham genre. I have read the translation of all the kruthis of the trinity.
It is well established that Tyagaraja and Shyama Sastri used Sringaram extensively. Musicologists of merit have ascertained that a krithi of Tyagaraja's are almost certainly precursors to the Javalis of today. There is one authentic MD sringaram composition "Rupamu Joochi".
3) The Trinity did not sing in royal courts
In that sense, they extricated Carnatic music from mere virtuosity and entertainment and channeled it into Devotion path.
Tyagaraja and Shyama Sastri learnt music from Court musicians. Tyagaraja's maternal grandfather Veena Kalahastiayya was a composer and poet of merit who used the Sringara rasam extensively. Their disciples were again court musicians. Also, court music wasn't something that was sullying CM, such that CM had to be 'extricated' and 'rescued' from the courts of Tanjore!! The trinity, as is the case with several other composers, channeled their knowledge of CM into their devotion. CM was their means of experiencing divinity. CM has a larger identity, a larger meaning, and bhakthi is only one aspect of it. This aspect the trinity may have highlighted and enlarged, but they did not discount Sringaram and seek to (actively or passively) remove Sringaram from CM.
Do's and Dont's of Good culture evolve over many centuries and we are guided by great souls. Certain things are out of bounds for experimentation for just novelty's sake.
(No offence) This statement reminds me of something Professor Umbridge said (others may quote the classics, I quote Wodehouse and J K Rowling😂)-"Progress for the sake of progress must be discouraged. Let us preserve what must be preserved, perfect what can be perfected and prune practices that ought to be prohibited."

Again, I must state how we cannot let a misinterpreted form of what tradition is and what it means, to stifle innovation. The history if CM show how Sringaram and Bhakti co-existed. And it's only around the time when the anti-Devadasi movement began (later years of British rule), that Sringaram came to be stigmatized. We cannot neglect centuries of history of CM, and focus only on the time after Bangalore Nagaratnamma died, and call a 80+ year old artistic convention as an undying tradition. A tradition stands for much more than "Bhakti good Sringaram bad".
Last edited by Ananthakrishna on 02 Feb 2021, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 20:58

For me, the inherent flaws in the ARI paddhati are a secondary concern. I spoke of my concerns with these flaws only to later come to a more important point, which I shall say now.

<snip>
Rather than citing any specific inherent flaw, you suggest that the primary problem is that it constrains or straight jackets the musician.

One may as well say having to sit cross legged on stage and sing severely restricts the musician and then blame ARI for it

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

I think I have mentioned what I perceive to be flaws in the concert format in posts #56 and #59.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-73
-----
Wrong and vague in everything.
-----
1)
reg-MD- KRUTHI
Roopamu was not composed by MD. but by his father.
viewtopic.php?p=47212#p47212
----------------------------------
2) What are the kruthis of erotic content by the Trinity? There are none. Cite some if you can.
3) Your quote about 'progress' is exactly my stand. sans alliteration.
4) 'Plum' was one among the masters of English prose.
I have read almost all his novels and short story collections.
sites.google.com/site/pgwodehousebooks is my site.
His treatment of romance' is the last word and there is absolutely no trace of vulgarity in any of the portrayals.
Was he Victorian? No. Very much modern -incidentally coinciding with the Golden period- 1920-1970!

shreyas
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shreyas »

RSR wrote: 02 Feb 2021, 16:14
reg-MD- KRUTHI
Roopamu was not composed by MD. but by his father.
viewtopic.php?p=47212#p47212
----------------------------------
Rupamu Juchi is listed under Mudduswami Dikshithulu in Subbarama Dikshithulu's Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini. Again, this is irrelevant to the main focus of the debate; even if Ramaswami composed it, that doesn't make it any more (or less) acceptable. A varnam is a varnam, and just because they have shringaram doesn't mean they should be discounted. Anyway, the discussion was originally not about the position of shringaram in concerts.
RSR wrote: 02 Feb 2021, 16:14
----------------------------------
2) What are the kruthis of erotic content by the Trinity? There are none. Cite some if you can.


There is a varnam called Sami Ni Rammanave of Syama Sastri which seems to go against the grain of his compositions since it is not purely devotional in nature.

Kshetrayya, who came MUCH before the trinity, spent his time composing quite outwardly erotic songs. That does not necessarily indicate that he was a bad person, a bad musician or a bad composer. According to my humble opinion, some of Kshetrayya's padams are the best compositions in their respective ragas (Bala Vinave, for instance, is definitely in my top 3 in Kambhoji - just that Chinnanati is pure bliss). By shunning these fabulous compositions in the name of 'bhakti,' we are eventually doing disservice both to the composer and the art form at large. As @Ananthakrishna said, while bhakthi is an integral part of the Carnatic paradigm, we cannot associate the art only with devotional purport, especially because it actually began with other intentions.
RSR wrote: 02 Feb 2021, 16:14 p-73
-----
Wrong and vague in everything.
-----
Do's and Dont's of Good culture evolve over many centuries and we are guided by great souls. Certain things are out of bounds for experimentation for just novelty's sake.

[/quote]

Actually, Ariyakudi was not a god or a saint to have established the format. To be fair, I don't think he even ever declared it sacrilegious not to follow it. He liked it, he used it in his concerts, and it became popular. It's like a scientific paradigm shift as Kuhn proclaims - one model can and should be able to replace another as long as there are benefits to it. 'For novelty's sake' implies that one is just experimenting for the sake of it. This is never necessarily true. We cannot place ARI on a pedestal and claim his format is 'the' format. We need to be in a position to evaluate it like we would any other thing.

I am sure there were reviews of his concerts that did not appreciate the large number of compositions presented. Why is his paddhati considered ultimate? Sticking to tradition on the grounds of tradition is not a virtue. As @SrinathK said in the early days of this thread, tradition is just a good idea that worked at some point. This does not mean we can stubbornly stand by Aristotelian physics. Or should I say ARI-stotelian physics :lol:

Bad joke apology. 😂

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 27 Jan 2021, 23:51 As for the concert paddhati that many musicians and rasikas assiduouly adhere to, is it really a success? Consider these points-
You seem to be conflating the paddhati and ARI's style of singing which are not the same thing, The eponymous paddhati has been honed and polished many times over since ARI's time.

1. According to this paddhati, how a musician presents a composition depends on that composition's position in the concert. So, the artiste does not give enough weightage to how the composition has been designed, and its framework, while presenting that composition.
Not exactly! Many compositions allow themselves to be interpreted in a range of moods and flavors. That is part of their genius. This has successfully been exploited by many performing artistes,
Case in point, in a concert by the major architect of this paddhati, ARI that I had teh opportunity to listen to, Rama Ninnu Nammina was sung so slowly just because it was the main piece of the concert, that layam and pace lost all meaning! The song is plaintive, true, but not as plaitive as that!! Another example, Purnachandrika is a ragam that is not taken for elaborate presentation generally, and so we hear Telisi Rama Chintanato sung like there's no tomorrow.
I dare say I may agree with your conclusions on these renditions but that has nothing to do with the paddhati,
The concept of presenting a krithi or varnam considering the 'slot' it has been allotted in a 3 hour recital, makes no sense to me. Why should the position of a krithi in a concert matter more than its ragabhavam and sahityabhavam?
A concert is like a story. Or like a play. Or like a movie. Or like life itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end.
2. The explanation given for why a Varnam is presented first, is that it is an energising piece that invigorates the audience and sets the tone for the rest of the concert, again does not make much sense. Is the audience there to enjoy and take in the music, or run a three hour long race?
It helps to invigorate the audience, the accompanists and the artistes themselves. But again depends on the interpretation. Narayanagowlai can calm you too if you just rode your bicycle to the concert arena.
This however should not mean that artistes who don't present a varnam at the beginning are committing sacrilege.
Where did you hear that? Definitely not from ARI or supporters of his paddhati I hope. But there are fanatics everywhere.
3. Another problem with this paddhati, as mentioned earlier, is how Vinayaka krithis are seldom presented as main pieces, since another has already been sung as an invocatory piece. Again, why? If an artiste chooses to present Karikalabhamukham (Saveri), or Gajaananam Ganapatim (Thodi) as a main piece, it ought not to be an issue.
And it is not. These are strawman arguments made by people with some non-musical agenda.
Because what matters is how well it has been presented, how well the Raga Bhavam and Sahitya Bhavam has been brought out. Besides, even for the religiously minded, who feel that Ganesha is prathama poojitha, and other deities also need to be worshipped through CM, I'd like to say- "आकाशात् पतितं तोयं यथा गच्छति सागरम् । सर्वदेवनमस्कारः केशवं प्रति गच्छति ॥"
Of course! I am sure ARI and followers of the paddhati are in whole hearted agreement.
4. The time bound nature of this paddhati has lead to the loss of many compositional forms, ragams, e.t.c. As art historian V Sriram likes to keep saying, we have, over the last 70 years, witnessed the near-complete extermination of the padam,
These are very hard to pull off. That is why you don't find them very commonly. Nothing to do with ARI.
since there is no time after a main piece to sing a langorous padam, and to present such an erotic piece as a main piece is again sacrilege!!
Erotic.. Sherotic.. They are in Telugu mostly. No problem there.
Ragams like Manji, which absolutely cannot be sung fast, are gone (When's the last time we heard a sufficienly long alapanam or neraval to any krithi in Manji?).
They happen more frequently than you suggest.
According to me, in the long run this kutcheri paddhati was an unmitigated disaster! In the quest to present a variety of pieces, a variety of ragams within a shorter time, we have actually lost more than we gained! If it has stuck till now, its only because so many musicians stubbornly followed it for so long, that we don't notice its flaws any more because we are conditioned to it.
What a terrible thing to say! :(

Now, as to whether this kutcheri padhhati is traditional, I draw your attention to V Bhatkande's notes on his CM study tour of South India written around the same time as the SSP. He describes a kutcheri he attended, and its format was completely different from what is heard today!
Yes. V.Bhatkande's notes may be of historic interest and to get the HM view of CM of that period and not very relevant now. People like to drop his name (not implying that you are. See my other post on caste issues in art).
Actual manuscripts like the Natyashastra, Sangita Ratnakara e.t.c (which surely can be considered traditional!) too show how CM was flexible and not bounded by regulations apart from these. Our culture and tradition has always been open to change and innovation, and to curtail it in the name of tradition is not correct!
Frankly one doesn't need manuscripts to see how flexible CM, our culture and traditions are. There are so many flavors of CM being practiced and are evolving. Just go to Youtube :D
So, if I was asked unto what extent do the confines of tradition reign, I would say that tradition is not meant to confine the art! Like the art itself, traditions too change and evolve, and the tradition that ultimately reigns over all is the tradition of welcoming change and respecting innovation!
Reign may be the wrong term. Let us say Govern instead.

rajeshnat
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by rajeshnat »

SureshVV has almost stated what has to be stated . just few points

1. Paddhati or concerts in sabhas were first started by Poochi guru of Ariyakudi , the format was first brought out by Poochi Iyengar then ariyakudi being his disciple sang significant years to establish it

2. The slow or fast krithi that is usually made adjacent , the placement of submain and then after few fillers the main and then a RTP are not stereotypes of paddhati , it is actually a result of 3 main pragmatic situations that has to happen irrespective of era,
2A . Energy level of say vocalist cannot be the same and one cannot pour at one place , so a kind of rotation with adequate spacing is the key
2B. Placement of tani , adequate violin return is also for the same. Please also remember at most times all artists need adequate warmup to raise to more output which roughly comes at half point
2C. We have tukkadas just like deserts after meal as it gives a spread of languages and different genres of composition

3. Musicians as early as SSI have started concerts with a weighty harikambodhi krithi or even a shankarabharanam. SSI adored ARI and he also experimented . TRS mama has sung with a different start and also KVN did a detailed padam . So as such many tried to be different just to experiment with ideas

4. The whole generation is made to believe that only one musician has made a bold claim to change the status quo. IT is hardly his contribution to change . What he does is shuffle and leave it incomplete without dwelling in details by merely posturing that he does offer it away from the usuals with adequate backup of lot of online writing and publishers.

5. Imagination of artists , the energy levels of that day, the moods generally give enough improvisations , for eg i once heard a shrothaswini RTP from suryaprakash @ BVB, once a detailed patadeep RTP from sanjay subrahmanyan @ Mudhra , a sudden neraval in pariyachakama in vanaspathi , one detailed kumudakriya alapana by abhishek post main in besantnagar. I also recollect once Crama wrote brilliant vidushi Amrutha Venkatesh started with a weighty Amba kamakshi swarajathi that i did not attend . All things are happening with a reorder change and traditions are adequately challenged .

What we need to address are two issues , MORE TIME TO be given for each concert to experiment with bold ideas. Artists are mostly caged in time . ALso more importantly not many new faces are replenishing the old time rasikas to motivate more and more challenges to existing tradition by bringing more ideas. Only those have to be addressed , it is just a strawmans argument to blame and state Poochi-ARI paddhati.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-77
@Shreyas
What I have read about Kshethragya.. He went from one temple to another and created his padhams for the temple dancers of each such temple. apparently in praise of the deity.
and Jayadeva sang for the temple dancer of Puri Jaga
nnath temple (padhmavathy?). Smt.MS has sung just the opening song and not any other.
Let us not get confused regarding good tune and theme.
----------------
There are English translations of many of his 'padhams' available free in the web. It is significant that it is funded by an American University. ( A.K.Rmanujam). He has translated some by Annamacharya also.
It may be true that many Javalis and padhams are very sweet to hear. The solution is to leave it to the Instrumentalists.
'Apadhuru' a JavaLi in Kamaj is one such.
Kindly look for the rendering of this by Flute Mali, ChinnaMoula Sahib in Nagaswaram and Nathamuni band. ( 17,18,19)?
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
----------
Have you heard 'maravaenae eNNalLilume' by Smt.MS in Thamizh Meera? Paraj ragam. It is based entirely on a Telugu Javali in TUNE but the lovely thamizh lyrics are by Kalki
https://meera1945.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_85.html
-------
That is the direction to take if we want to retain the TUNES of Kshethragya and other dance music composers ignoring the vulgar and voluptuous words and theme.
-------
SSP is not the last word. ( no mention of Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan an exact and towering genius and contemporary) and hundreds of MD compositions are not mentioned there. Not all of them can be rejected as spurious.
----------------------------------
The Guru is not responsible for the different direction taken by his disciples after he passed away. That too in the second generation.
-----------------
Excuse me for a rather simple analogy. Even in good hotels, the items are served in a particular order.( I am referring to Tambras vegetarian feast). We do not pour Sambaar first and then dump Rice

.
@rajeshnat has mentioned nice points.in just the previous post.
------
Wikipedia on Carnatic music is really good. Have a look

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_ ... t=Carnatic music, known as Karnāṭaka saṃgīta or Karnāṭaka,Telangana, Kerala and Tamil Nadu, and Sri Lanka.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

viewtopic.php?t=2215

@shreyas
This is the original for 'maraveae eNNaLilume' song cited in the preceding post.

https://youtu.be/SKDgSdF_Bv8
JaavaLI in Paraj raagam by Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi
composer-Pattaabiramaiah
upload by Kartheek Sharma
---------------------------
Kindly go through the meaning as translated by
@rshankar
It is just a poignant and compassion-evoking lament by a damsel
(really nice in the last few lines).
Absolutely no improper words.

sankark
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 04 Feb 2021, 12:38
It may be true that many Javalis and padhams are very sweet to hear. The solution is to leave it to the Instrumentalists.
'Apadhuru' a JavaLi in Kamaj is one such.
Kindly look for the rendering of this by Flute Mali, ChinnaMoula Sahib in Nagaswaram and Nathamuni band. ( 17,18,19)?

----------
Have you heard 'maravaenae eNNalLilume' by Smt.MS in Thamizh Meera? P
That was much needed relief - lol moment - at present :D . Why even lyrics even then - be it chelinEntlu or maravEnE. Or rAmA nI samAnamevaru. Or akshaya lingha vibhO.

Believe the Victorian prudes could learn a thing or two from this forum/board to improve on their prudishness.

sankark
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1yhVgmHQ0

Here is an artiste and a concert - first ever time getting to hear this vidushi & so far just 25 mins into the recording. Listen to the 2nd song - thats a padamesque beauty. Not that the nereval for the first is any less because of paddathi/format of the concert.

I seriously am scratching my head so much on the paddhathi complaints that I may furrow a hole deep enough to touch the dura mater.

In my line of business there is this nugget of wisdom: if you can, deliver; else, follow the process. Apply that in the context: if you can, perform; else, adhere to the format. :evil:

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

ref -p-82
Thyagaraja Swami kruthis - a) Sangeetha gnaanamu bhakthi vinaa
2) entha naerchinaa , are the guiding principles.

As for, p-83, it all depends on the lyrics' words.. Would n't you have liked it had it been played in instrument / orchestra?
-----------
So, all the vocalists of the past decades followed the ' paddhathi ' only because they could not deliver?

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote: 02 Feb 2021, 23:03 A concert is like a story. Or like a play. Or like a movie. Or like life itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end.
This analogy needs more elaboration. Here are some more aspects:

1. Just as the plot or script is central to a play or a movie, the song list is the fulcrum for a concert.

2. Just like for a play or a movie, a "willing suspension of disbelief" from the audience goes a long way in making the experience more enriching. So rather than focus on the jewellery/attire or stage mannerisms/"nakhras" of the artiste, one should focus on the immersive experience.

3. The primary purpose of the song list is to take the audience on an emotional, cultural, educational and divine tour.

4. The song list is most carefully and painstakingly designed with a number of criteria tailored for that specific moment in time.

5. ARI was the visionary that saw the potential of the song list and that is why the paddhati thrives.

ramamatya
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by ramamatya »

Well said, for a change.

Wish there were some clapping emoticons !

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: 06 Feb 2021, 15:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1yhVgmHQ0

Not that the nereval for the first is any less because of paddathi/format of the concert.
Not sure exactly what you mean here but that cracker of a neraval at "kamithartha vitarana nipuna charana" starting in the 2nd speed and then downshifting was most original and phenomenal. And all well within the "paddhati".
In my line of business there is this nugget of wisdom: if you can, deliver; else, follow the process. Apply that in the context: if you can, perform; else, adhere to the format. :evil:
Actually she is delivering even while adhering to the format. The format is most certainly not a straight jacket.

sankark
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

sureshvv wrote: 06 Feb 2021, 21:15
sankark wrote: 06 Feb 2021, 15:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1yhVgmHQ0

Not that the nereval for the first is any less because of paddathi/format of the concert.
Not sure exactly what you mean here but that cracker of a neraval at "kamithartha vitarana nipuna charana" starting in the 2nd speed and then downshifting was most original and phenomenal. And all well within the "paddhati".
In my line of business there is this nugget of wisdom: if you can, deliver; else, follow the process. Apply that in the context: if you can, perform; else, adhere to the format. :evil:
Actually she is delivering even while adhering to the format. The format is most certainly not a straight jacket.
The format is most certainly not a straight jacket. - precisely. If I were to agee even more, it has to be in violent agreement :)

It was a cracker of a nereval indeed. And never have I so far heard a nereval in that krithi - don't know if she has planned/practiced it so or was an impromptu take off.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-85
point-3
excelent

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

ramamatya wrote: 06 Feb 2021, 18:14 Well said, for a change.
Well appreciated for a change : :lol:

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Roopamu was not composed by MD. but by his father.
It was indeed composed by Muthuswamy Diksitar. Not only Subbarama Diksitar, but also the descendants of Tanjavur Quartette believe the same.
SSP is not the last word. and hundreds of MD compositions are not mentioned there. Not all of them can be rejected as spurious.
Definitely, it is. It might be difficult to accept it now. We cannot comment on any work without reading it completely and understanding its intricacies. It is applicable to SSP too. No one will find a fault with the way Subbarama Diksitar has put forward his thoughts in that book. He was a great researcher and more importantly, he was much truthful to himself. It is true that he has not given all the kritis. But has he mentioned anywhere that he has given all the kritis of MD? In such a case, how can you even blame him for the kritis that he was not aware of?
People working in a teaching institution can relate to this analogy. When you check the answer sheets, you should always credit for what has been written. Only the written segment is to be evaluated. The evaluators cannot speculate a student's acumen for the segment that was not written :D
( no mention of Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan an exact and towering genius and contemporary)
Have you read the book by U.Ve.Svaminatha Iyer on the musicians of his period? Just read how Muthusvami Diksitar was mentioned. You will get surprised. It is slightly more than a passing reference. Shall we discount his (U.Ve.Sa) genius?
By shunning these fabulous compositions in the name of 'bhakti,' we are eventually doing disservice both to the composer and the art form at large.
They are indeed a form of bhakthi. Just because you wish to promote an art form, you should not separate srungara from bhakthi. We have plenty of such works in our literature - Azvar, Nayanmar, Jayadeva to cite a few. It is up to a listener to take in the form that they like.
What are the kruthis of erotic content by the Trinity? There are none. Cite some if you can.
Can you explain your definitions for eroticism and srungara?

You should not get confused with the themes expressed in a few of the javalis as srungara. On the other hand, if you say expressions like 'when will I kiss you' or 'I am waiting to embrace you' denote eroticism, you are certainly wrong.
Regarding- Boat Song- It is out of sync with 99% of Thyagaraja Swami's kruthis. No eminent vocalist of 1930-1970 decades is known to have sung any of those songs in concert platform
I feel you are not exposed to the slokas, which are a part of "Nauka Caritra". Those slokas display Svamigal as a kavi. They were composed in pure Telugu. It was the place wherein Svamigal makes a mention of his Guru Ramakrishnananda. It was certainly a creation of Svamigal. Valajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar has written a sloka, wherein he mentioned about two operas - Prahlada Caritram and Nauka Caritram. Since you cast doubt on Subbarama Diksitar, you might also have the same opinion on Venkataramana Bhagavatar. You are absolutely free to have your opinion. But, I suggest you go through the transcripts. It is to be experienced.

Do we have all the gramophone records made prior 1930?

The Trinity did not sing in royal courts
Muthuswamy Deeksitar was a court musician in the Court of King Serfoji.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-91
-----
1) It matters very little if well-known kruthis sung by Smt.DKP , Smt.MS and Smt NCV are not listed as creations of MD.
2) There are hundreds of compositions listed as of MD , which do not find mention in SSP.
3) Each of the venerated Trinity, had a main theme. SS had praise of th Mother Goddess ( Kamaakshi). Sathguru had Lord Ramachandra as his main deity. MD had all the gods in Hindu Pantheon.
When the lyrics deviate from these characteristic themes, it is but fair to reject them as 'spurious' and interpolations.
By that yardstick, the operas of Sathguru can be rejected. Even Prahalaadha Bakthi Vijayamu is taking too much liberty with the accepted story of Prahalaadhan in Baagavatham.
Just one kruthi of SS is of an epistle by a woman to Varadaraja.
Jaarring.
Roopamu….'is not by MD.
SSP author is said to have had some issues with Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.
SSP does not mention Annamacharya either.
----------------------
As for coarseness, quite a few can be found in Jayadeva, Kshetragya and Anamacharya. ( English translations are available)

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

@The Lost Melodies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BayuajR5S74

Saw your presentation. Very nice! As you mentioned about SrI rAgam, daivatam is used by Sri dIkshitar in one place and in an important place, I remembered the line : kESava hRt khElinyai of the kRti : SrI varalakshmi where the prayOgam comes - it is indeed a SRngArA line in the kRti!

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

@RSR

Opinions differ. I am not here to comment on your opinions and take them forward. I am here mainly to gain knowledge and to get leads for me to get hold of manuscripts that will be useful for my research.

Whatever I say comes from my research and many of the reference materials are available online. Hence, I suggest you give evidence that supports your thought process. That will be much useful for us to refer to the source and learn more.

I have tried to give a clear picture of SSP and its author Subbarama Diksitar in my recent lecture. I must thank @shankarank for posting it here. He was a researcher to the core and imagine this (the research and the book) happened some 150 years ago! I have tried to highlight that aspect too.

Kindly go through when you find a time and you might consider changing your opinion.

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

@shankarank

Thanks for your feedback. Like Mahalakshmi playing in the heart of Mahavishnu, he has played with the ragam, at an apt place :D

The genius of not only Sri Muthuswamy Diksitar, but of his entire clan can be enjoyed by going through this valuable treatise.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-94
----
My approach to CM is totally guided by the presidential address of Smt.MS in Music academy-- link given in my post p-57
-------
I have read the SSP about the composers' life sketch given there.
------
MD was never attached to any royal court.
------
'Though 'rupamu ' is listed in SSP as that of MD, it should be rejected. If one goes through all the posts in rasikas on MD-KRUTHIS, it has been discussed already.
------
Kindly go through the great blog series on MD by srinivasaraos
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... araos-blog
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Also the Shodhganga paper at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar
------------
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic
gives my uncompromising understanding and approach.

---
I am not interested in CM musicology as such except as a vehicle of high class devotional music .
It excludes music meant for dance.
================================
I have visited your blog.
A suggestion.
Create an index page ( PAGE and not a POST) and give a link to that index page in every post , for quick navigation.
----
All Art is and should be ideological . There can be no 'objective' Art.
Hence Thyagaraja and Shyama Sastry.
-------
Time is scarce.

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 09 Mar 2021, 21:08 p-91
-----
1) It matters very little if well-known kruthis sung by Smt.DKP , Smt.MS and Smt NCV are not listed as creations of MD.
2) There are hundreds of compositions listed as of MD , which do not find mention in SSP.
3) Each of the venerated Trinity, had a main theme. SS had praise of th Mother Goddess ( Kamaakshi). Sathguru had Lord Ramachandra as his main deity. MD had all the gods in Hindu Pantheon.
When the lyrics deviate from these characteristic themes, it is but fair to reject them as 'spurious' and interpolations.
By that yardstick, the operas of Sathguru can be rejected. Even Prahalaadha Bakthi Vijayamu is taking too much liberty with the accepted story of Prahalaadhan in Baagavatham.
Just one kruthi of SS is of an epistle by a woman to Varadaraja.
Jaarring.
Roopamu….'is not by MD.
SSP author is said to have had some issues with Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.
SSP does not mention Annamacharya either.
----------------------
As for coarseness, quite a few can be found in Jayadeva, Kshetragya and Anamacharya. ( English translations are available)
Music is a tree bearing all types of fruits from where all may eat whatever they wish. But one cannot claim the other fruits are bogus. One's opinion or likes and dislikes cannot be used to claim proof of truth, cannot be used to declare what someone else would have thought or done or valued, and certainly it cannot be used to know the limits of the music. This is musical illiteracy.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-87
-----
We are not discussing in this thread , the general theory of music / classical music even.
This is about ARI paddhathi of vocal concert music.
---
Carnatic classical music is definitely based on Bhakthi movement tradition. People who deny that are 'illiterate'.
Pure music is instrumental
But kruthis are meant to be sung and the lyrics and theme assume foremost importance .
There is no place for l'lust' in CM .
a clear case of misuse.
@the lost melodies
MD was never a court musician.
You are insulting his memory.
Perverted interpretation of 'vakshasthala Nivaasineem'

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

MD was never a court musician
.

Indeed he was. That was not my imagination :D . I have evidence that was placed in one of my lectures too.

Certainly, the source for my statement can be accessed online.
You are insulting his memory.
Perverted interpretation of 'vakshasthala Nivaasineem'
I can neither understand nor relate this statement to my comments.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-99
----
No. MD;s father was attached to the court of Amara Singa, uncle of Serfoji-2 .. Serfoji-2 and MD were almost contemporaries. When Serfoji-2 became 'king' ( nominal- the real power was with East India Company) it I was 1799 and by that time ,MD was around 24 years old and the family had already moved to Manali some ten years earlier.
Though MD returned to Thiruvaaroor with his father, he never stayed there long, as his father passed away shortly. It was his younger brother who was the court musician at Ettayapuram zamin. MD came to know of his whereabouts during his pilgrimage in southern towns by chance only. and joined his younger brother for some time. It was the Ettayapuram zamindar who visited his residence to pay respects, not the other way around. SSP does not mention anything about MD being a court poet / musician anywhere.
MD was actually poor. and never sought patronage from anyone. throughout his life. He never indulged in Nara Sthuthi
----

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