How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

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ganesh_mourthy
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#1 How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

In classical music where we have the drone for support , it is easy for us to find the pitch . And besides the the resting and not gamakam notes like Sa comes to help.

My cousin asked me this question and I have no answer yet. Especially in light music , how what method do you use . Since our light music is also influenced by classical music , we have the resting note of Sa , so I am able to find out , and partly intuitive over the years of listening playing music.
But how could I explain it , and what is the theory behind it . Has anyone given it a thought?

GM

Nick H
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#2 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Nick H »

I'm not sure what you are asking, but here is a three minute demonstration of how our brains know more about pitch than we may think they do: https://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcferri ... e_audience

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#3 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hi Nick

As you know in carnatic music the male singer generally sings in C or C sharp as the base Shadjam. The women singer sings in 5 or 6 kattai G or G# as their base Shadjam. We simply find it out with the drone ., the landing in Shadjam and Pancham helps us easily find the Shruthi or Pitch ( adhaara Shruthi) . How is that done is light music where there is no pitch box or drone instrument.

Let me look at the video...

Ranganayaki
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#4 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

In many songs especially in the last three decades, it can be difficult to determine, and grihabhedam interpretations may come in. Just my feeling, I don’t know much about film songs.

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#5 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Ganesh Mourthy,
Please get and share some music clips. I will try and most probably be able to locate the Fundamental. And I will explain my logic. There are even better listeners here and they will add more value.

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#6 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hello Sachi Sir,

Thank you for trying to help . This is an important question and we rely totally on intuition for an answer but that should not be the case for an organized music piece. This is something that escapes me for a long long time.

1
for example , below is a light devotional song where there is no drone sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aAKw8vEOzI

what is the pitch of SPB here ? theoretically? and how? in the absence of Tambura?

2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNiOQt1FF48

This one is simhendra madhyaman scale as told by many .. but how could we arrive at it theoretically ? How do we find the pitch of the singers.


3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB9hLAXauI8

or this ? How do we determine the pitch when we hear a set of notes as music. Even to categorize it as a major or minor scale we have to get hold of the octave. Here where is that octave?

Ganesh Mourthy

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#7 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 26 Aug 2020, 22:12 Ganesh Mourthy,
Please get and share some music clips. I will try and most probably be able to locate the Fundamental. And I will explain my logic. There are even better listeners here and they will add more value.
Here’s one (from me, if you don’t mind):

https://youtu.be/uMdpWbjG7U0

Thank you, RSachi!
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Aug 2020, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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#8 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music?

Post by Ranganayaki »

for example , below is a light devotional song where there is no drone sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aAKw8vEOzI

what is the pitch of SPB here ? theoretically? and how? in the absence of Tambura?
Waiting for Rsachi, I’ll take a shot at it.. please do correct or refine my answer, RSachi or anyone. In this case, it’s an older song and to me it seems straightforward.

The first stanza goes into musical tension (my way of putting it) which seems to resolve itself and come to rest at a particular note at the end of the stanza at 0:23, on the “lo” of “taaleylo.” That is the tonic (sa) to me, and playing it on the piano, I find it’s the F note. So he’s singing at a high pitch of 4 kattai. The whole song follows this, there is no shift from this.

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#9 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNiOQt1FF48

This one is simhendra madhyaman scale as told by many .. but how could we arrive at it theoretically ? How do we find the pitch of the singers.
This is also easy to figure out, but more difficult to explain.

The song starts with a note that instantly sounds like it might be Sa, because the violin music takes it up two full octaves from there, but sa remains a hypothesis. But the orchestral music does seem to rest a teeny weeny bit at the note two octaves higher, conforming that it could be the sa. Immediately the violins seem to rest at the lowest note exactly two octaves below.. and in the scale that was heard, there is a fifth (pa) in its proper position, a (minor third) (G2) in its proper position, and your hypothesis of what note is sa seems to be confirmed..

The song (Aa-syllable of “ānanda ragam” seems to begin at the Ga, and the first line of the song seems to come to rest at Sa.. The song goes down to the lower sa and repeatedly comes to rest/resolution on the lower sa (0:46- 0:48)

So to me it seems to be an unconscious confirmation process for me.

But I do go with my hypothesis and follow the notes up from the Sa i imagined, hearing them as best as I can, though I do get thrown of by multiple notes occurring at the same time with different instruments, but as soon as I get back to one dominant instrument, I am able to follow the notes as they would be with the sa I had imagined, so the confirmation is also non-elimination of my “hypothesis.”

The shruti seems to be C#, 1.5 kattai - 8.5 for women?
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Aug 2020, 10:05, edited 1 time in total.

ganesh_mourthy
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#10 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes, most of the times or all the times I get it fairly right even without going for theory . The way the notes move and the theory of film music , as far as the pitch and notes are concerned , is relevant to classical music. If a singer with good note control , sings a carnatic song that is new to you , both song and raaga wise 'WITHOUT AN ACCOMPANYING THAMPURA " , you could still make out the pitch and the notes. This is an abstract knowledge we cultivate over the years of listening , singing and playing.

I was watching this video and Sikkil here was talking a lot of interesting aspects comparing ilayaraja's "how to name it " and dessecting them note by note. It was all greek and latin to me.

https://youtu.be/z0hU6tpxwjw

It made me very inconvenient to realize that we (rather I ) do not understand the music enough as we ( sic I ) rely more on learning purely through intuition not giving a care on the structural aspect of it.

Ganesh Mourthy

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#11 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Yes.. I too feel very ignorant when it comes to composers like ilayaraja and ARR. I don’t have an appreciation for the depth of their work, and I just happened to ask a relative-friend of mine to explain the nuances of Raga and bheda in their songs. So I’m looking forward to having my eyes (and ears) opened.

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#12 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Thank you Ranganayaki

Hope there will be lot of useful inputs. It will only grow our understanding of music. We have to understand it as sonic rather than just developing our intuitive senses. That is why I gave a link of vivaldi too. Let us see

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#13 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Sure FOLKS, i will set about showing my way..
I am. still debating how best to communicate the algorithm 😊 Maybe I will make a Audio video track with Audacity and iMovie.

Meanwhile Ranganayaki has nailed it.
The first stanza goes into musical tension (my way of putting it) which seems to resolve itself and come to rest at a particular note at the end of the stanza at 0:23, on the “lo” of “taaleylo.” That is the tonic (sa) to me, and playing it on the piano, I find it’s the F note. So he’s singing at a high pitch of 4 kattai. The whole song follows this, there is no shift from this.
and in the scale that was heard, there is a fifth (pa) in its proper position, a (minor third) (G2) in its proper position, and your hypothesis of what note is sa seems to be confirmed.
That's how it works for me. from the refrain, the repeated resting note, the note around which all the melody hangs, is the aadhaara shadja, I dare say all the music I like and listen to has this foundational, fundamental note and even a phrase around which the entire song hangs. So.

I will work on that Youtube song with KamalHassan....

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#14 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I am still not able to get that . With repeated color and tone listening of several male and female voices , we get a fairly clear idea of a piece of song. This is developing that abstract sense in relation to our carnatic music.

Listen to this below ... just without listening to any resting notes or elongated notes.. there are many in the song

Just a little ha humming and the song.. my intuition says it could be 2 to 2.5 kattai for SPB and Vani stays exactly one octave higher than him . That is just my intuition as I heard only for a few seconds . And theory I have no idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbJbChfNuoc

Let us see what Ranganayaki and Sachi's guess of it.

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#15 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB9hLAXauI8

or this ? How do we determine the pitch when we hear a set of notes as music. Even to categorize it as a major or minor scale we have to get hold of the octave. Here where is that octave?
This was a nice surprise, I was expecting a film song. I had to listen to the whole movement to collect my thoughts.

For me the end of the refrain as it appears the very first time, feels like the tonic. I played it on the piano, and it is E. The whole concerto (set of three movements ) is said to be in E major and this refrain, in its first appearance resolved itself to E, predictably.

But during the course of this movement the refrain appears two more times, . The refrain is shifted down once, and then the music itself shifts back up to C#. I know that because I used the piano to check the tonic I perceived.

When it is in C# (apparently a minor scale) that part of the music is agitated, evoking gathering storms, actual storms and this time the refrain or “thème” returns and the final note, the C#, is played and then the music immediately shifts back up to the E major scale, and everything is happy again, the clouds seem to clear, water seems to drip, birds and animals seem to tentatively come out... and it’s all cheerful again, the effect of the major scale. The movement ends on the E, back to the original scale.

I am not knowledgeable enough to say it better. I think the music gives the overall mood by setting the tempo and the key, E major in this case, but there may be transient moods resolving to different keys before returning to the original?

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#16 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Just a little ha humming and the song.. my intuition says it could be 2 to 2.5 kattai for SPB and Vani stays exactly one octave higher than him . That is just my intuition as I heard only for a few seconds . And theory I have no idea.

This is a much more difficult one. It could be either the “ma” of the word kannamma as sa - so the song would begin as gmpmg-r-s—- (approx) or it could be the much lower “ma” of keLadi Ponnamma. I tended to think it had to be the latter, because that note comes around repeatedly, much more. Here the song would begin as dnsnd-p-m—-(approx)

But I feel I have great proof or at least great confirmation. In this lower option, I discovered that “dinasari” (of dinasari pala raggam - 2nd iteration) occurs as a swaraksharam (dnsr), which has to be intentional, and this would not occur in the swaras of the other option.

This sa is E, and so that makes the shruti 3 kattai. Of course the lady singer sings one octave higher.

Sorry I hadn’t noticed that you’d said you arrived at 2-2.5 intuitively, and I asked how you came to that conclusion (I deleted my question). It seems that you intuitively came to the same conclusion as me (your number was just a bit off).

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#17 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 27 Aug 2020, 10:41
Meanwhile Ranganayaki has nailed it.
Thanks, RSachi!

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#18 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganaayaki ,

When the singers sing "ore Raagangalil" and 'nilaa kaalangaLil" ... the ni was at "kaakali nishadham" for both "orE" and "nilaa" and that makes me guess it is D or 2 kattai . In the absence of shruthi drone or a raagam structure , my intuition says so . So we have a big gap of 1 kattai between your guess and my guess.

Now .... What triggered me to start a thread like this ?!!

It is just this ....

https://youtu.be/8ps2yZwOqg4

I don't understand what she is meaning at 5.30 ...Listen to the whole video however.

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#19 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 27 Aug 2020, 13:52 Ranganaayaki ,

When the singers sing "ore Raagangalil" and 'nilaa kaalangaLil" ... the ni was at "kaakali nishadham" for both "orE" and "nilaa" and that makes me guess it is D or 2 kattai . In the absence of shruthi drone or a raagam structure , my intuition says so . So we have a big gap of 1 kattai between your guess and my guess.

If I understand what you mean there, in fact without your meaning to, your guess coincides with mine exactly. But I feel you seem to be expressing it a bit erroneously.

When you say the La of nila is at ni (the first swaram of La actually - La is sung as ND), you are right. That that swaram is D is also correct. That it is kakali Nishadham is wrong. All the syllables of kaalangalil are at Sa. With respect to that Sa, that Ni is kaishiki nishadham.

No matter, the D is Ni as you say, and the next swara is Sa (the whole word: kaalangalil) which does coincide with E. So if Sa is E in your calculation then your calculation is the same as mine.

I’m not sure why you think the adhara shruti can be ni. You know it should be Sa. So it’s E and we are agreed.

The ni does not get a kattai number ever. The Sa being at E, the shruti is 3 kattai.

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#20 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

You are super right and I agree . Yes I erred in the way I mentioned it. "kaalangalil " is at "E" . Let us keep using more of western C D E to avoid ambiguity and we know what they correspond to in kattai .

Now , also agree that we settled for "kaalangalil " as Sa Sa Sa Sa sheer out of our "abstract knowledge and intuition" and notewise we agree the intervals of notes . . Now ... the doubt I have is that why cannot be "ore raagangalil" be

1
if we take that the octave is D to D it is "ore ------raagangalil" is "D C# --------E E E E" and that is "Sa ni3 --- Ri2 R2 Ri 2 Ri2"

2

Now as we agreed abstractly without any theory and E to E it is .. then "D C# --------E E E E" becomes " ni2d2 ----Sa Sa Sa Sa " ... now both works fine from a logical view and especially that the notes are straight notes sung and that beats me.

With the above system , we could take any pitch and call the notes with its relative distance . I hope I am clear. If the 2nd one is right ... the first one is also right ... right?!

Ganesh Mourthy

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#21 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Ranganayaki's Youtube piece: https://youtu.be/uMdpWbjG7U0

This has a group of kids singing a tune like Mohana. The Sa is pretty easy to spot.
The there are some visceral thumps.

Then the boy and girl gallivant to a new song
That song is in Vasanta. Its Sa is exactly the Pa of the first piece.

Both are easy to spot because of instrumental portions and a recurrent dominant note.

By the way I have heard somewhere that all film and orchestral music is with a pretty standard dominant or fundamental note..
I forget whether it was C or E.

They do change the scale depending on the melody... somewhat like ragas dictating Shruti.

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#22 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Sachi_R wrote: 27 Aug 2020, 10:41 Sure FOLKS, i will set about showing my way..
I am. still debating how best to communicate the algorithm 😊 Maybe I will make a Audio video track with Audacity and iMovie.

Meanwhile Ranganayaki has nailed it.
The first stanza goes into musical tension (my way of putting it) which seems to resolve itself and come to rest at a particular note at the end of the stanza at 0:23, on the “lo” of “taaleylo.” That is the tonic (sa) to me, and playing it on the piano, I find it’s the F note. So he’s singing at a high pitch of 4 kattai. The whole song follows this, there is no shift from this.
and in the scale that was heard, there is a fifth (pa) in its proper position, a (minor third) (G2) in its proper position, and your hypothesis of what note is sa seems to be confirmed.
That's how it works for me. from the refrain, the repeated resting note, the note around which all the melody hangs, is the aadhaara shadja, I dare say all the music I like and listen to has this foundational, fundamental note and even a phrase around which the entire song hangs. So.

I will work on that Youtube song with KamalHassan....
After some attempts with my PC whose mic didn't work and some attempts at running multi apps on my phone without success, I have given up. Meanwhile Ganesh and Ranganayaki have already figured out how to solve the mystery of the missing drone.

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#23 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes , in film singing the male voice is 90 % of the time D or D sharp and rarely E. That gives a kind of vibrant youth feel and correspondingly the female singing is one octave higher and hence that soprana singing and there is no such thing as false voice. It is a different voice practice. It looks it has been set since 1950's .

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#24 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

[/quote]

I have given up. Meanwhile Ganesh and Ranganayaki have already figured out how to solve the mystery of the missing drone.
[/quote]


Not yet. We will figure out soon . There is a friendly "note" dispute for a song. You did not notice it ?

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#25 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Here is a mention about anthi mazhai song

https://www.thehindu.com/features/frida ... 780440.ece


If it is vasantha and "MMMM/GMDMG.." is the opening "andhi mazhai pozhugiradhu " then the kattai is 4 i.e F

Are they singing so fluidly at 4? I struggle at even D . Does it mean that the SJ is keeping her base Sa almost one octave above carnatic female singers singing at 4 or 5 kattai ? Confused again .

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#26 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Great thread. Very informative. I will listen to the recordings later at leisure and see how this process works for me.

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#27 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Let us keep using more of western C D E to avoid ambiguity and we know what they correspond to in kattai .
No, we are talking about Carnatic music, so we have to use terms from both, with the western swara names helping us discuss.
if we take that the octave is D to D it is "ore ------raagangalil" is "D C# --------E E E E" and that is "Sa ni3 --- Ri2 R2 Ri 2 Ri2"
It doesn’t work like that. In a musical piece the foundational note or tonic cannot be a note that occurs fleetingly. You can take this raga and do a grihabhedam on D which you called Ni (remains correct), set that as Sa, but at that point the D has to become a dominant note in the song. You cannot take an occasionally occurring note in the song as it is and claim it is the base note. The Sa is determined as the note where the music settles and the tension resolves itself, in this case it is E. You cannot place the Sa at D and say the octave is D to D. It is not.

Here the octave is E to E.
Now as we agreed abstractly without any theory and E to E it is ..
I’m not sure what you mean by “abstractly and without any theory.” There is a certain reasoning, and it is not purely logic. There is some musical idea there behind it, ignorant as I am and being unable to express it any better. Also, you have ignored this little input of mine supporting my argument:
I discovered that “dinasari” (of dinasari pala raggam - 2nd iteration) occurs as a swaraksharam (dnsr), which has to be intentional,
So I don’t agree that we agreed on an abstraction based on nothing and that you presented two possibilities that are equal.
With the above system , we could take any pitch and call the notes with its relative distance . I hope I am clear. If the 2nd one is right ... the first one is also right ... right?!
If you are talking about grihabhedam then it is right, but then the tonic you set it to (D in this case) has to become a dominant note in the tune. There will be a raga changé. That doesn’t happen here. There is no grihabhedam occurring, no dominant D in the basic version either.

But I can sing the whole song at a lower pitch, making D the Sa. In that case Kaalangalil will still be saasaasasa. And my pitch will be 2 kattai. But that doesn’t seem to be what you are talking about. You are saying that the Sa is at a different point in the song, on “La” of “Nila.” That is not the case.

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#28 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 27 Aug 2020, 17:24

Not yet. We will figure out soon . There is a friendly "note" dispute for a song. You did not notice it ?
We are friendly, certainly, but yours has some erroneous premises. Then even though your logic is good, you are bound to reach a wrong conclusion. And you are ignoring that really cool piece of evidence in my favor, the swaraksharam. 🙂

I’m thrilled to have discovered it 🙂😁😇!!

But I’m enjoying this discussion.. 🙂

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#29 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 27 Aug 2020, 17:14 Ranganayaki's Youtube piece: https://youtu.be/uMdpWbjG7U0

This has a group of kids singing a tune like Mohana. The Sa is pretty easy to spot.
The there are some visceral thumps.
I did hear that when I posted, but I was thinking of the main piece.

Then the boy and girl gallivant to a new song
That song is in Vasanta. Its Sa is exactly the Pa of the first piece.

Both are easy to spot because of instrumental portions and a recurrent dominant note.
I do agree, but with that Sa, the Ma is also a dominant note in the song. If that Ma (anthi mazhai)is taken as Sa, the high akaara tune that KH sings starts at Pa. Then it sounds like Pantuvarali.

It was this relative-friend of mine that drew my attention to it.

In this case i think SPB is not to be considered as singing at 8 kattai or something, but just at Madhyama shruti, the song doesn’t seem to go much higher than Pa. What would you say to that interpretation, @Rsachi , @ganesh_mourthy ? Or anyone? Please do chime in.

But the lead-in chant and the main song being at the same shruti is an important clue I don’t mean to ignore.

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#30 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

OK. As I said, the PA morphing to the Sa when SPB (may he get well soon) and SJ - this conclusion is based on several observations including instrumental portions. Unfortunately a forum chat is not good enough for my communicating it correctly. I did try for a while to put it into a video but failed due to the technical issues on my PC and constraints of my mobile.

Yes, good discussion and relevant to rasikas for sure.

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#31 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »


I do agree, but with that Sa, the Ma is also a dominant note in the song. If that Ma (anthi mazhai)is taken as Sa, the high akaara tune that KH sings starts at Pa. Then it sounds like Pantuvarali.

It was this relative-friend of mine that drew my attention to it.

In this case i think SPB is not to be considered as singing at 8 kattai or something, but just at Madhyama shruti, the song doesn’t seem to go much higher than Pa. What would you say to that interpretation, @Rsachi , @ganesh_mourthy ? Or anyone? Please do chime in.

This is what I meant . In most of the songs there are two or sometimes even three notes where the melody seems to hover around at different places. But the pitch remains the same as there is no noticeable shift of pitch. There are even songs where there are quick succession of notes as akaaram without any elongated notes. ( what my sir calls as farhans ) . I shall find out some.

Let me share an anecdote...
I shared a house with 3 friends while I was in London ( a long time ago ) . This was when I got a little interest in western scale and harmony and until then all my knowledge was restricted to Sa Pa Sa ( I am conforming it now again with the way my limited appreciation goes even now) .
Two guys and one of their visiting friends were quite knowledgeable with music and they would sometimes casually mention a pitch and arrangement of notes for various indian film music and western pieces . ( NO THEY WERE NOT MUSICIANS , BUT ONLY CONNOISSEURS) , It was very intriguing to me then , and I would constantly play a musical piece and ask them to name the pitch , and they always did instantly . This was even more intriguing to me , and to make sure that they are not influencing each other , I would ask them separately for the same piece and they were always consistent. I did this for several several musical pieces , but my understanding was too limited then and even if they had explained I would not have understood. But all that I remember vividly is that their answer came within 4 or 5 seconds ... any part of the music you play . Well... I am not in touch with them and they were another passing clouds of friends though we stayed together for almost a year.

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#32 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

I wrote:
But the lead-in chant and the main song being at the same shruti is an important clue I don’t mean to ignore.
Oops, big mistake here. I didn’t read your sentence with proper attention, it seems, @Rsachi . I thought you said that the sa of the main song was exactly the Sa of the lead-in chant. But that’s not what you said! The Sa of the main song in the Vasantha interpretation
is Pa of the chant - that is actually what you said. I had paid no attention to the chant! But if that is the lead in, then don’t you think it is a clue that the main song should be interpreted that way too, with anthi mazhai at Sa? And the start of the akaaram interlude by SPB at Pa? Then it would all be one coherent setting (though it doesn’t have to be, I agree)

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#33 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

I came across this:
At first blush, film music would hardly seem to be an ideal idiom for the practice of Shrutibhedam. Film songs are, essentially, words set to music. A composer can play on the listener's ambivalence about the tonic note, but that would seem to be extent of it. (For instance, to this day I hear the song Andhi Mazhai Pozhigirathu—from the movie Rajapaarvai, 1981—not in Vasantha, but in Ramani, its tonic-shift equivalent.) However, Ilaiyaraaja, in his typically inventive way, has elevated this ancient and time-honoured tradition to the level of an intellectual game.
I’ve been trying to get some info on raga Ramani, never heard of it before, and there is nothing to be found. I’m surprised that this article gave no details on this raga. But this article (this para at least) seems very apt to our discussion.

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#34 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Image

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#35 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Wonderful! I looked in the same document, but I guess I didn’t look properly. Thank you! Do you happen to have given this any thought reg. the song we started discussing? I just saw your post.. and I’m not sure I can tell for sure.

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#36 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

The raga is not Ramani.

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#37 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes I tried keeping the pa pa pa pa as andhi mazhai for Ramani and tried to omit the dha and stil it does not work when I come down to gandharam. But there are no enough citation for Ramani nor there are any compositions . To strike a resemblance it should be a popular scale.... like in the case of vasantha that came readily to match. Probably it was an error from the writer and might have had something else in mind. It could have been a blog not requiring serious consideration.

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#38 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 29 Aug 2020, 09:52 Yes I tried keeping the pa pa pa pa as andhi mazhai for Ramani and tried to omit the dha and stil it does not work when I come down to gandharam. But there are no enough citation for Ramani nor there are any compositions . To strike a resemblance it should be a popular scale.... like in the case of vasantha that came readily to match. Probably it was an error from the writer and might have had something else in mind. It could have been a blog not requiring serious consideration.
If you are looking at it as Vasantha anthi mazhai is at m-mmm. If it is a pantuvarali-related raga, then anthi mazhai is at s-sss. I think it is not Ramani because there is a definite Ri in the song -while looking at it as Pantuvarali-related. Ramani is ri-varjya.

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#39 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I have looked only at the pallavi and Panthuvarali works too. I have to listen to the whole song. Now let us suppose that it fulfils panthuvarali and vasantha scale equally , then we have to still narrow it to one to find the pitch it was actually set to by IR . As far as film song goes , the scale could be carnatic or hindustani , but the theory they follow is western pitch , scale(minor and major) , chord and harmony system. Let us dig deeper . I am now obsessed by this.

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#40 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

If the ma of the Vasantha (“anthi mazhai” for example) is Sa of Pantuvarali (“anthi mazhai” again, obviously) wherever the Ri occurs in the Pantuvarali (not in that same line), the ri being only a semi-tone above Sa (shuddha rishabham), it will be a semitone above the Ma in the Vasantha. That makes it Pratimadhyama and so the Vasantha interpretation does not work.

(Of course, though I thought of it, actually knowing where it occurs was too difficult/painstaking for me, at a slightly mentally lazy moment, and this was part of my discussion with my relative-friend. But he sang it for me and I get it. Because of the presence of extraneous swaras, it cannot be actually considered as Vasantha.)

But I also feel that all the swaras in the other interpretation fall under the umbrella of Pantuvarali. But there are too many prayogas without the ascending ri, there is a systematic absence of the ascending Ri. But there is no raga in the book that fits that description. Naming it Pantuvarali is the only option, uncomfortable as it is.

🤷🏻‍♂️

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#41 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

If it is Pantuvarali , the song starts in the upper Sa and travels by and large between madhya pancham to upper pancham.
We could go on with our interpretations. In the meanwhile let me watch some videos of Anil Srinivasan , guitar prasanna, and there is one ragamalika series by subshree thanikachalam on film songs which she is doing currently . Let me watch them too as they are more inclined towards filmy music . Let me find some link and see how well we match with their ideas .

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#42 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Ranganayaki, for me the song is based on Vasanta and really there is no more to discuss from my side :0)

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#43 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

In fact , I am looking for a link where a musician mentions that the musicians of yesteryears leaves so much only to guess. So there were always some ambiguity.

But there are some songs that leaves no ambiguity with regards to pitch I feel .

For example the super popular this one ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2vMPKI9sLw

Let me chime in back after Ranganayaki and Rsachi ( and where is VK yet? ) throw in their opinion. For our discussion purposes let us stick to the exact link that we discuss. Some of the digitally mastered of the same songs have a slightly different pitch - a semitone less or more. I checked.





How about this song

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#44 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 30 Aug 2020, 11:51 Ranganayaki, for me the song is based on Vasanta and really there is no more to discuss from my side :0)
Sure.. but the question of the pratimadhyamam remains. How does one account for that, in that interpretation, I wonder.

I’m open to either. I just have questions. That pratimadhyamam doesn’t seem to be addressed anywhere.

Ganesh Mourthy, in the internet, you will find mostly Vasantha related comments.

I think we have to leave it as an unresolved ambiguity. I guess liberties are taken in film music.

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#45 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMN3FUr40U0


yes, Sachi . You can listen to the above video and that says a lot. but there cannot be always and always ambiguity . My friend says there would be ways these people notate it with pitches. The raaaga element does not matter much but the pitch matters. There should be a better way they decide the pitch . Say for instance raaja or msv used to have some 50 tunes handy that they may use if needed. To write a notation and preserve they should be following a proper pitch . Raaga is immaterial here . I was expecting that we will bounce around our ideas with many . we are just three .

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#46 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Sachi_R »

Ganesh,
Thanks. I listened to Vinayakam showing how MSV created gripping tunes beyond ragas by various means including modal shifts. I think that is the versatility of cinema music.

I recall Subbudu saying that whatever Carnatic musicians might have against cinema music, they can't deny that cine music gave a lot of importance to Shruti 😊

A veiled reference to CM singers etc. straying from Shruti.

By the way Ramesh Vinayakam was a favourite of the late Sri. Nageswaran.

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#47 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Sachi_R wrote: 30 Aug 2020, 16:11

I recall Subbudu saying that whatever Carnatic musicians might have against cinema music, they can't deny that cine music gave a lot of importance to Shruti 😊


By the way Ramesh Vinayakam was a favourite of the late Sri. Nageswaran.
There is no denying of it and the the cine songs gave importance to notes to subtle and micro level . That is what makes me also to think that there should be a definite theory there that escapes us .

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#48 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by ganesh_mourthy »


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#49 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 03 Sep 2020, 14:32 And what scale is this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdX_sQr19Yo
Rageshri?

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#50 Re: How would you find the pitch of the drone UN-accompanied music???

Post by Ranganayaki »

That was my first response!

But as I try to play the bare notes (for understanding) on a piano, I discover that there is a G2 also.

Na is at Ma, and Ji of jiya is at G2. But the higher G3 of Rageshri is also definitely présent.

So this seems to be a mix of Rageshri and Bageshri! I don’t know what that would be, if it is just one of those ambiguities or if this has a name!

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