Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

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RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-1
@MaheshS
Thanks for sharing. It was informative.
A few points.
1) It was a revelation that there are so many degress of 'gamakam'.
2) There is no mention about Govindacharya , who devised the 72 MeLakartha ragas scheme of SampoorNa variety. It is the scheme that SS and Thyagaraja Swami followed. In fact there is scarce informatin about Govindacharya.
3) The writer correctly mentions about 1300 AD being the dividing line. but fails to correlate it with the Bahmani Kingdom in upper deccan. ( History of South India by Kallidaikkurichi A. Neelakanta Sastry- a text book in Madras University ,may help.)
4) How about Mahendra Pallavan of Kanchi ( 600 AD) who is reputed to be a great musician and musicologist? The early pallavas are said to be Iranian generals from Mauryan era ( 300 BC)
5) The Thamizh Bhakthi movement especially of Siva worship asserted itself in the era of Mahendra Pallavan. and his reign extended even upto North Western districts of Pandyan kingdom of that period. ( Naarthamalai, KudumiyanMalai In Puthukkottai district, Thiruppatthoor, PiLLaiyar patti, Kundrakkudi in the same area not to mention Soumya NaarayaNa temple in Thirukkoshtiyoor from where Saint Ramanuja was said to have preached aginst the evil of untouchability as early as 1100 AD. ) Farther south, just near Madurai, the Aazhvar movement gave us Periyaazhvaar, AandaaL , Nammaazhvar and Mathurakavi AAzhvar. That should have been around 700 AD. coinciding with Pallava regime in Kanch.
Surely, the Bhakthi movement of those centuries must have definitely given us classical music as well and quite probable that the Trinity and musicologists of Naik rule ( 1600 AD) and subsequent Maratta rUlers of Tanjore made use of the existing pans

6) The writer is dismissive of the area in Rayaaseema ( where Thiruppathi temple is situated) but if true, Annamayya waa poet, and musician composer who lived there around 1200 AD as a follower of Ramanuja.
7 ) This is the first time that I come across the information that Mahratta rulers were ruling from Bangalore! Really? what was the name of Bangalore then?

8) Why even Krushnadeva Raya wrote his literary work on Kothai AAndaaL in Telugu? When exactly, Telugu and Kannada got different identity?

9) As the famed musicologists and composers of Tanjore Naik and Mahratta period ( 1550- 1850) , lived in Thamizh country though they wrote in Sanskrit and Telugu, CM is better called South Indian classical music.
10) Bangalore area is just adjoining present day Thamizh state and so does Mysore almost a part of Thamizh areas. The Dasa poets were centered more in the northern districts of present day Karnataka state with large Marathi connections.
------
.

Sachi_R
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Sachi_R »

It is a well written article. Thank you.

For anyone who wants to know about Govinda Dikshita, Here is info in SSP:
Image

PDF link: https://mega.nz/file/txpmkSrS#u-X8SVpMj ... YZQBgar1v0

Govinda Dikshita was from Mysore=Kannada region.

Kanchi Mahaperiyavaa has mentioned somewhere that his mother tongue was Kannada and his ancestors included Venkatamakhin and Govinda Dikshita.

Epigraphists have found Kannada inscriptions from before 10c CE (you can see one in Prince of Wales Museum Mumbai) and Kannada literature dates back at least 1400 years as per history. This is dissimilar to Telugu.

sankark
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sankark »

Will have to take this article with a pinch, or even a teaspoonful, of salt. There was another derivation of karnAtaka sangItam as karu nAdu aga sangItham - the sangItham that was in vogue in the interior land of dark skinned (not vouching for that either), guess it meant from the land south of Vindhyas where the population was comparatively dark skinned.

As for mahAperiyava: Apparently siruvAchUr madhurakALi is HH's pUrvAshrama kula deivam. It is interesting then that for someone whose lineage traces to kannada speaking region, the kula deivam is in the center of tamil speaking land! An interesting thesis could be written on how/when kuladeivam's shift too along with a populace, perhaps.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

kaar Naadu = " land of rains'. perfectly true even today. Arsikere , Shimoga line.
-----
There is a reference to one Govinda Dheekshithar in SSP in the biographical note about MD's father while he was staying at Manali.
To quote
=======
" During that time, Mudaliy¯ar also appreciated and took care of G¯ovinda D¯ıks .ita, who came there saying that he was the great-grandson of V¯ e˙nkat .amakhin, and expressed his desire to see Caturdan .d .¯ı prak¯ a´sik¯ a, and other texts. G¯ovinda D¯ıks .ita answered that he would give him the books only if he could figure-out the name of the r¯aga from the m¯urcchana that he gives him. R¯amasv¯ami D¯ıks .ita took the m¯urcchana given by him and composed a padam, “nannu par¯ıks .i˜ncan¯ela” (why do you have to test me?), as if written by Mudaliy¯ar himself and in the end he included the m¯urcchana given by G¯ovinda D¯ıks .ita and made both Cinnasv¯ami and B¯alasv¯ami D¯ıks .ita sing it. Afterhearingthatsong,G¯ovindaD¯ıks .ita praisedthemsayingthat“thisisthesamem¯urcchana asIhave given; he (Mudaliy¯ar) too is our V¯

Not clear if he is Govindacharya
===========================
It was not uncommon for brahmin migrants from Northern regions to marry from the local families. The migration to far south trough the Vindhya ranges took place right from 500 BC. and Nasik region ( Godavari) was early settlement. ( from History of South India)
-------------------------------------------------

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

Just to add some clarity here:

Govinda Dikshita is not same as Govindacharya.

Govinda Dikshita was the minister of Tanjavur nayakas (3 of them - Chevvappa Nayaka, Achyutappa Nayaka and Raghunatha Nayaka) and certainlt precedes Govindacharya by at least a century. He was known as "Ayyan" and many tanks, villages have been built in his name in the Tajnavur area ( I have heard this, no first hand info to me)

Regarding Govindacharya - there is even a controversy if such a person existed, but surely a work called Sangraha Chudamani exists and it was probably written just before Tyagaraja's time ( although some scholars belive that this was a post Tyagarjaa creation).

Also the 72 mELa names given in Sangraha Chudamani, were taken from anothe work of Akalanka. So Govindacharya is neither the person who came up with sampurna mELa system nor the one who gave the currently well known names. He of course, composed lakshna gIte for all the mELas and many janya rAgas that are famous today.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-6
@ramakriya

<quote>
Also the 72 mELa names given in Sangraha Chudamani, were taken from anothe work of Akalanka. So Govindacharya is neither the person who came up with sampurna mELa system nor the one who gave the currently well known names. He of course, composed lakshna gIte for all the mELas and many janya rAgas that are famous today
</quote>

Good point.
======
( nothing found in SSP)

Some information about Govindacharya of 'Sangraha Chudaamani'
As Shyama Sastry also follows the SampoorNa MK system, it must have been in vogue much earlier..
From srinivasaraos blog
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... indacharya

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

https://archive.org/details/SangrahaChu ... 9/mode/2up For those interested, the book Sangraha Chudamani is available on archive.

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 17:29 kaar Naadu = " land of rains'. perfectly true even today. Arsikere , Shimoga line.
-----
There is no indication for the entire regio being kArnADu ever. That is not to be taken as a possible etymology,
There is a village by that name however.

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 10:15
A few points.

4) How about Mahendra Pallavan of Kanchi ( 600 AD) who is reputed to be a great musician and musicologist? The early pallavas are said to be Iranian generals from Mauryan era ( 300 BC)
5) The Thamizh Bhakthi movement especially of Siva worship asserted itself in the era of Mahendra Pallavan. and his reign extended even upto North Western districts of Pandyan kingdom of that period. ( Naarthamalai, KudumiyanMalai In Puthukkottai district, Thiruppatthoor, PiLLaiyar patti, Kundrakkudi in the same area not to mention Soumya NaarayaNa temple in Thirukkoshtiyoor from where Saint Ramanuja was said to have preached aginst the evil of untouchability as early as 1100 AD. ) Farther south, just near Madurai, the Aazhvar movement gave us Periyaazhvaar, AandaaL , Nammaazhvar and Mathurakavi AAzhvar. That should have been around 700 AD. coinciding with Pallava regime in Kanch.
Surely, the Bhakthi movement of those centuries must have definitely given us classical music as well and quite probable that the Trinity and musicologists of Naik rule ( 1600 AD) and subsequent Maratta rUlers of Tanjore made use of the existing pans
It is not the intention of the article to discuss the entire evolution of Sangeeta all the way from Natyashastra. Surely, it can be done. But that was not within the scope of the article. Bhakti movements being ancilliary to the evolution of music is a pan India phenomenon not just restricted to one region or the other. Arguably so, because music is one of the ways to reach more people. Music has been in existence since time immemorial - including references in Ramayana and such too. That is why we generally say music is derived from Sama Veda (which we consider apaurusheya anyway)
RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 10:15 6) The writer is dismissive of the area in Rayaaseema ( where Thiruppathi temple is situated) but if true, Annamayya waa poet, and musician composer who lived there around 1200 AD as a follower of Ramanuja.
Remember the time the name was given , as clearly shown in the article - It was not during the time of Ramanuja or Annamayya, but much later.

RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 10:15 7 ) This is the first time that I come across the information that Mahratta rulers were ruling from Bangalore! Really? what was the name of Bangalore then?
There was a short period when Shahaji & Ekoji were in *Bengaluru*. The name of *Bengaluru* has been so for at least 1300 hundred years. Could have been more, we do not know.

RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 10:15 8) Why even Krushnadeva Raya wrote his literary work on Kothai AAndaaL in Telugu? When exactly, Telugu and Kannada got different identity?
That is totally outside the scope of the article. There was nothing to prevent multilingualism - In fact if that had continued, many of the misunderstandings about various terminology would not hapened. A Tuluva/Kannada Krishnadevaraya wrote about Andal (who was clearley Tamizh speaking) in Telugu. A Marathi speaking Shahaji wrote in Telugu. Plenty of kings from South India wrote works in Samskrta.

Telugu and Kannada have been seperated for long - it is not a historically traceble date. We can only say Telugu literature as we know came up later than Kannada.
RSR wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 10:15 9) As the famed musicologists and composers of Tanjore Naik and Mahratta period ( 1550- 1850) , lived in Thamizh country though they wrote in Sanskrit and Telugu, CM is better called South Indian classical music.
10) Bangalore area is just adjoining present day Thamizh state and so does Mysore almost a part of Thamizh areas. The Dasa poets were centered more in the northern districts of present day Karnataka state with large Marathi connections.
------
The present boundaries are no indication of the past, Hoyasla rule went up to Tiruccirappalli, and Chola rule up to Talakadu. That does not mean all the people upto those borders were speaking the very same languages. The historical Dharmapuri area was actually primarily Kannada+Telugu bilngual will a smaller portion of Tamizh people. But anyway these points are not really relavent to the article in discussion.

Sreeni Rajarao
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

Just to make it clear for rasikas who might not be aware of this....

ramakriya on Rasikas.org is the author of the article in discussion (Ramaprasad K.V. aka Hamsanandi) - he was very active in our forum until a few years ago.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-11
Thank you for the information.
----

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

Felt just curious.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-simi ... nd-Kannada
=====================
Spent some time last night in trying to read the introduction for the book (pdf mentioned by you.) The introductory passages analyze the music structure of Sama Vedha in detail. Too heavy for me. Am trying to convert into plain text from image, for easier reading and sharing.
I am still at a loss, why CM is so tightly bound with Telegu,
right from the establishment of Naik rule in TN , through the Tanjore Nahratta rule, Company rule and even British Govt rule . CM has become synonymous with Telugu. Any possible explanation?

sureshvv
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 03 Apr 2021, 10:48
I am still at a loss, why CM is so tightly bound with Telegu,
right from the establishment of Naik rule in TN , through the Tanjore Nahratta rule, Company rule and even British Govt rule . CM has become synonymous with Telugu. Any possible explanation?
I would attribute it to Telugu being the language of the elite (ruling political class) of the time.

sureshvv
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 15:29 Will have to take this article with a pinch, or even a teaspoonful, of salt.
I found the content of the article entirely plausible.

Did not find it particularly dogmatic (or rigorous for that matter ;) )

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-14
@sureshvv

May be 1857 was a watershed. due to establishment of Madras University. and education in Law and legal profession. I am able to trace back upto that. And since 1850's almost all the famous people were Tamil brahmins and did not know and speak Telugu. If anything, they studied Sanskrit .and English only besides their mother-tongue. Were they not 'elite'?
I think, the musicians in the Mahratta court of Tanjore were all Andhra people. Possibly due to some unfathomed reason, even Krishnadeva raya's court poets were all Telugu scholars. And it may be that the brahmins who were brought to Tanjore by Govinda Dikshithar (1650) were all telugus and not Kanndigas. The subsequent patronage by the Tanjore kings would have attracted a lot of musicians and scholars from today's Andhra and Telungana regions.
SS and Sathguru had gurus - court musicians- and I think they were all Telugus. All the CM compositions were in Telugu.
Where is Karnataka in CM. then? Leaving aside the re-tuned compositions, the language is mostly Telugu , Sanskrit and Thamizh.
CM since 1800 has meant Telugu mostly.
This may not be because it was connected with elite people.
Even the Tanjore area just prior to SS and Sathguru reverberated with Sanskrit mostly. Sanskrit though not spoken, was the language of the elite in intellectual circles. Only zamins were telugu ruled.
Were there many Kannada composers and singers all these years?
Last edited by RSR on 03 Apr 2021, 22:23, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by shankarank »

MaheshS wrote: 01 Apr 2021, 20:31 Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music? by Hamsanandhi

The meaning of the word suḷādi is not completely understood – there are conflicting views about the names among scholars. While some suggest that it comes from the Kannada phrase “suḷuhu hādi”, or “sūḷ hādi” (“a good path”)
https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%9a%e0% ... 3%e0%af%81 suluvu is easy in tamizh. hadi is from padi, pAdai -> path as attested by pAl(u) to hAlu.

and sulabha is also a cognate here with v -> b transition.

Sachi_R
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Sachi_R »

@ramakriya
Congrats on a good article!

Dr. Srikantam Nagendra Shastry is a very good scholar and belongs to Thyagaraja parampara (Walajapet - Mysore Sadasiva Rao...) He showed me extensive references in Brihaddeshi and Sangeeta Ratnakara while talking about the strong roots of CM in Karnataka.

Most of the basic technical terms in CM are derived from Kannada and Sanskrit.
Understandable since Purandara Dasa defined many of these terms. His famous Jagadoddharana was composed in Malur Aprameya temple on the Bangalore Mysore highway. Similarly Krishna Nee Begane Baro was composed in Udupi by Saint Vyasaraya. Of course they lived ~500 years ago. And so on.

Another expert is Dr. R. Ganesh (Shatavadhani is a Tamil Iyer from Kolar. Perhaps hailing from Appayya Dikshita lineage). He has been eloquent in establishing the roots of the name Karnataka sangeeta. After all this large land saw many a thriving kingdom since the times of Chandragupta Maurya (who took Jain sannyasa and died in Shravanabelagola).Kannada is 90% derived from Sanskrit and its script can be traced to Brahmi.

All this is from scholars in history and epigraphy. But I am a layman.

Regional compunctions will stir debates and disputes. There is of course no debate that CM has been centre and frontstage a Tamilnadu stronghold for at least 300 Years. We should celebrate this fact and even rasikas.org wouldn't have come into being but for Chennai-centric rasikas' efforts.

Good night.

sureshvv
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 03 Apr 2021, 21:15 p-14
@sureshvv

May be 1857 was a watershed. due to establishment of Madras University. and education in Law and legal profession. I am able to trace back upto that. And since 1850's almost all the famous people were Tamil brahmins and did not know and speak Telugu. If anything, they studied Sanskrit .and English only besides their mother-tongue. Were they not 'elite'?
You may be conflating the educated with the elite. How about the nawabs & 'dubash's? They are more in the league of the elites that I had in mind.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-19
@sureshvv
Yes. You are right. I was having in mind, people like Judge Muthuswami Iyer, Judge MaNi Iyer, 'Salem ' Vijayaragavacharyar, Swadesamithran G.Subramanya Iyer, Bhashyam Iengar, Pennatur Sivaswamy Iyer, Krishnaswami Iyer - all of them born around 1840. and such. None was a reactionary. Not much connected with the Arts . No one was a telugu. A different kind of elite altogether
----
May be that Chembai, ARI, Mahaajapuam and Musiri generation was the first to make CM independent of 'feudal' patronage. And no one was a telugu.

sureshvv
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sureshvv »

There is yet another angle to appreciate here.

"Ease of consumption" is not really that high on the list for Classical music aficionados. Au contraire, one is expected to work hard to be able to appreciate the music to the fullest. The barriers are intentional.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-21
There should be no steep barriers. It should be a gradual rise. It was not intentional The more we get lost in the 'science', the less we gain in immersion in the music. That is why , CM should be taught from very young age and combined with appropriate cultural ambience and attitude. in daily life.


RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

many totally worthless things in entertainment category also need tremendous effort like rope walking. I suppose , all the self-styled experts in cm have mastered all the musicology books mentioned by srinivasaras blog on Indian music. Knowledge is relative.

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

RSR wrote: 06 Apr 2021, 11:58 many totally worthless things in entertainment category also need tremendous effort like rope walking. I suppose , all the self-styled experts in cm have mastered all the musicology books mentioned by srinivasaras blog on Indian music. Knowledge is relative.
I am not sure who these sarcastic comments are written about.

I can't speak for others, but suffice to say I have read many musicological works in original fully or in parts. Not that I need anyone's certification. I talk/write based on what I have read or experienced or infered based on my exposure to sangeeta and I am not speaking for Sreenivasa Rao or anyone else here.

Just wanted to make this clear.

-Ramakriya

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

A very well written article!!! The points made were quite evidently backed with solid research.

Perhaps it is pertinent to add that the contributions of Karnataka to our music didn't cease after the 17th century or so. They continue to this very day. So many priceless compositions in our tradition came from composers like Mysore Sadashiva Rao, Mysore Vasudevacharya, Harikeshanalluru Muttaiah Bhagavatar, Veena Sheshanna, Veena Subbanna, Veena Venkatagiriyappa, Veena Shivaramaiah Bidaram Krishnappa e.t.c. Quite a few of these composers may not have been born in K'taka, but their musical skills were certainly honed in the courts of Mysore and their art and talents were nourished by the Wodeyars!

Similarly so many other great traditions and artistes have come from Karnataka.

It has been a trend for years now to associate our music primarily with Tamil Nadu, which is not wrong, but is an incomplete truth. Our music does belong to all the states equally, and perhaps even to the whole world!

Anyway, until reading this article, while I was aware that "Karnataka Sangeeta" is the more accurate term, I saw no qualms in using "Carnatic music" to refer to it. Your article has convinced me that this "colonial hangover" as you rightly put it, can be done away with! I shall use only "Karnataka Sangeeta" henceforth!

Thanks a lot for the excellently written article, @ramakriya! (I read the article both in English and the Kannada original, both were written excellently well!)

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

Thank you @Ananthakrishna

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

@ramakriya
p-25

There was no sarcasm. and it was in response to the picture-post.just preceding .
To the best of my knowledge, music learners are taught by their gurus orally. from rather very young age. They do not become either musicians or composers AFTER reading the original works on musicology . And the texts are all in Sanskrit. If you had indeed read all the famous musicology books mentioned by the blog series by srinivasaraos and abridged in my website at
sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic,
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... icologists
kudos to you. Especially if you are a part-time musician / musicologist/composer.
No need to take un-intended affront.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-26
=====
The Vijayanaga empire under Krushnadevaraya reached its zenith .
His court-poets were all Telugus.. The emperor himself wrote in Telugu.
Though Purandradasa , knakadasa and other dasa poets wrote in Kannada, only the lyrics remain but their tunes have been lost. They have been re-tuned after devoted work by MLV's mother Mrs.Lathangi,
with assistance from a Kannada scholar.
----
After the fall of Vijayanagar empire, Govinda Dheekshithar assisted the first Nayak rules of Tanjore and brought quite a few brahmin scholars from the Vijayanagar area ( Hampi) to Tanjore district. It appears that they were all Telugu people. The Musicalogists, before nd after Govinda Dheekshitar wrote in Sanskrit only. and the musicians were all Telugu people.
----
And when we have a look at the brief sketches of musicins in SSP, we find almost all of them were telugu .

Post the Trinity period, the compositions were all in Telugu mostly, Sanskrit sometimes and less still in Thamizh.
----
Vasudevachar did not compose in Kannada. He learned CM from Patnam Subramanya Iyer, who in turn was a disciple of Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbaih, a much younger cousin Of Thyagaraja Swami. The other disciple of Manambuchavadi was Maha Vaidhyanatha Sivan exact contemporary of Subbarama Dheekshithar of SSP The Sivan brothers were famous composers and singers of Tamizh songs too.
Mysore Sadasiva Rao was disciple of Venkataramana Bgavathar , a disciple of Thyagaraja Swami. Sadasiva Rao is not known to have composed any kruthi in Kannada language.

So after many decades, Harikesanalloor Muthaiah Bagavathar a contemporary of Vasudevachar , has a few compositions in Kannada.
The other VaiNika experts ---were they composing lyrics in Kannada?
Any information will be welcome to get correct picture.
CM ceased to be in Kannada after the Dasa period.
The intention is not to belittle anything but just request for information.
I repeat, information on Kannada COMPOSERS, who composed in Kannada
.


--

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Mysore Vasudevacharya has composed in Kannada. Karunisou Taaye in Saraswatimanohari. Besides, C Rangaiah, T Chowdaiah, V Ramaratnam, Veena Sheshanna, Veena Subbanna, Karur Shivaramaiah e.t.c composed in Kannada.

Also the contribution of Karnataka lies not only in how many compositions are found in Kannada, but how the citizens and rulers of Karnataka fostered the arts. Another example: The Mysore Tambura and Veena are reputed for their distinct tonal quality and style, another great relatively new contribution to our music from Karnataka!

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

Just because almost the entire composers, musicians and musicologists lived in Thamizhnadu, CM as it exists today, cannot be said to be TamizhNadu sangeetham.
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... nataka.htm
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Famous VaiNikas of Mysore court were themselves disciples of Mysore Sadasiva Rao. --- Telugu/Sanskrit lineage.
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When Instrumentalists create music compositions, besides music notation, there would have been some sahithyam ( lyrics) also. Are such lyrics available for the creations of latter day vaiNikas of Mysore Durbar? or they were just playing Thyagaraja kruthis?

Are the lyrics available in web? with English translation.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Sahityams for these compositions are indeed available. Books have been published which can be found on musicresearchlibrary.net and archive.org. I don’t think English translations are readily available. But there is a book published by Vid. R K Padmanabha which has notations for Veena Sheshanna compositions in Tamizh.

They were certainly aware of the compositions and works of other prominent composers like Tyagaraja, MD e.t.c., but to the best of my knowledge while they played those compositions also, the musicians in the Mysore Darbar emphasised more on their own compositions and manodharma sangeetam.

ramakriya
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by ramakriya »

RSR wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 11:58 @ramakriya
p-25

There was no sarcasm. and it was in response to the picture-post.just preceding .
To the best of my knowledge, music learners are taught by their gurus orally. from rather very young age. They do not become either musicians or composers AFTER reading the original works on musicology . And the texts are all in Sanskrit. If you had indeed read all the famous musicology books mentioned by the blog series by srinivasaraos and abridged in my website at
sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic,
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... icologists
kudos to you. Especially if you are a part-time musician / musicologist/composer.
No need to take un-intended affront.
_/|\_

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-30, p-32
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p-32
Mysore Vasudevachar seems to have given just one composition in Kannada.
Whatever be the form of composition, ( kruthi, 'keerthan', varNam, swarajathi, jaavaLi, Thillanaa), the lyrics expound the theme.

Are the compositions mentiond by you ( VaiNikas) pure notations ( as in Western Classical) or associated with lyrics?
The music form itself is best illustrated in Instrumental rendering.
The composition, whether it is of Kruthi variety or of 'lighter' variety, can be either devotional or non-devotional.
The lighter type of compositions are classified so, not based on the theme and the wordings but the music ( tune and beats). We can have excellent pieces in lighter forms of compositions. And even devotional compositions of lighter forms of music can be absolutely free from banality.
Singing with ' bhavam ' requires understanding the lyrics. So, translations are essential . For performers, ( Instrumentalists) , notations may help, though there is no substitute to learning through a teacher..
Manodharmam is not part of the original compositions.
A composition is judged by the music, theme and lyrics.
Just by way of explanation. of my understanding.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

The compositions I have mentioned are indeed having sahityam. Translations for all of these are not available on the public domain yet. But those with an understanding of Kannada and Telugu can understand them easily. Compositions are in all formats, and some compositions are dedicated to the Wodeyar kings, and most are dedicated to the gods.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Ganabharathi Mysuru is conducting a series of classes aimed at teaching the compositions of these composers. The classes are available ok their YT channel. Do take a look.

RSR
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by RSR »

p-36
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For most CM rasikas in TN , translations into English is needed.
Personally, I know English, my mother tongue Thamizh , a bit of Sanskrit and MalayaaLam only.
Specifically , I do not know either Telugu or Kannada.
The blog sites of Sri.V.Govindan are most helpful in following the lyrics, meaning of the compositions of the Trinity.
And the sites are in public domain.
A similar project for the Kannada composers will be welcome . It should be in public domain. and in textual form. which can be saved and studied and shared.

sureshvv
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Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by sureshvv »

What is meant by "Karnataka" may be a state of mind, rather than a state in the nation.

There is an expression in Tamil: "avar suddha karnatakam"!

Meaning the person is very old-fashioned/traditional/classical :D

Manian
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Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: Article: Where is the ‘Karnataka’ in Karnāṭaka Music?

Post by Manian »

Karna Nadakam – Drama heard orally is used when talking to people or their attitude such as, “enna chuttha karnatakamaa irukke”, so “old” is the word for Karnataka and the latter meaning today attaching to Karnataka is accidental and misguided. The songs, poems, slokas, veda were all learned only by listening and repeating since there was not script to write in earlier days. Now, with the written method has taken over, we still retain the old words but with a new twisted meaning. So, let us enjoy the music rather worrying about the prefix Carnatic or Kanataka. By the way, only on the 3rd century did Kannada separate from Tamil but still used Tamil Tolkappiam as the grammar. The same thing happened to Malayalam which separated on the 8th century. These separation happened because of Sanskrit words, lack of suitable Tamil alphabets to write the aspiration and voicing of consonant sequences like – p, p',b,b'... Had some one at that time thought about Unity of a country (even now it does not exist), they could have added the necessary changes. Rather, Grantha letters were added but restricted to astrology and some vedic hymns. Anyway, when white man called Mr. “ Naasama Nii Poonaya ( நாசமா நீ போனியா ) instead of the name Mr. Neesamani Ponnaiya ( நேசமணி பொன்னையா)”, did the parents ever thought one day their son will be in UK and his name will be slaughtered?

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