Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

SR,
A valid point about the decline of religious compositions in western music. Even for the dwindling number of church goers, there is plenty of old music to go around for many years to come.
In India today, while modern art has become acceptable, we are still not ready for secular songs in CM, it seems. BhArati's verses, SuddhAnanda bhArati's and vEdanAyakam piLLAi's songs were and are often heard without the rasikAs being conscious that they are secular in nature. Of course, such compositions have to have quality. Otherwise, they may not survive.
Above all, we should not have an unreasonable fear that secular songs would oust the great compositions which are religious in nature.
An excellent composition might sound as good as a tyAgarAjA kriti (with say, the philosophical enquiry of a cakkani rAja forgetting the caraNAm where rAmA is addressed).
If that is how a song comes to a composer whether he or she is a bhaktA or not, so be it.
An added asset about such a song--even a person who worships a different god might want to sing it if the song is appealing to his sensibilities...

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

SR, understood, the 'model' vs 'illustration' distinction. Opera is classical but that compares more with dramas where music plays an integrated major role. That is a separate discussion.

Coming to think of it, the current state of lyrics in HM is a good example/illustration to study. I accept on full faith and at face value what you say "(HM Lyrics)....have a way of giving full expression to the music and are designed to do so". That is worth some reflection if that is indeed the function of lyrics in HM. I am not sure many would want CM lyrics to necessarily evolve to that function in a composition. (I am not implying that the above role of lyrics is insignificant or unimportant. ) Based on your compositions, I do not think you would want that to be the objective either. Correct me if I am mis-interpreting or over/under-interpreting all this.

As I have written before, I am all far expanding the scope and content of CM lyrics. This sub-discussion is mainly about using WC and HM as examples where evolution into a Bhakthi+Secular or predominantly secular format had contributed to the expansion of the intellectually oriented rasikas base. To the limited extent the comparisons provide useful value as illustrations, it will be useful to examine the cultural context in which that evolution had happened and the resulting transformation of the nature, importance and function of the lyrics themselves.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

arasi wrote:Of course, such compositions have to have quality. Otherwise, they may not survive.
Above all, we should not have an unreasonable fear that secular songs would oust the great compositions which are religious in nature....
Agreed, it is all about quality irrespective of religious or secular. As I mentioned in previous post, the vast majority of compositions which are currently considered "classical" do not fit the bill. The fact that they are set in a classical raga and tala does not automatically qualify them. I think they should be moved into "semi-classical" or "bhajan" genres.

The majority of MD/SS/T/ST compositions add genuine music, literary, and intellectual value to CM and should be considered "classical". Outside of these four composers, there are perhaps a few hundred other compositions (by a diverse range of composers) that can be considered to add value in some manner, e.g., either showing some new facets of a raga or some literary value in terms of integrating lyrics and music. The rest are rehashes of the same themes (many with "borrowed phrases") and with the same ragas and raga lakshanas recurring with no novelty.

For example, take raga Kalyani. The four composers above have explored the raga in vast detail. Yet there are a spate of later compositions rehashing the same concepts with no added value. The exceptions that add new value (like a "nijadAsavarada" by Subrahmanya Iyer) are few and far between.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:I am not sure many would want CM lyrics to necessarily evolve to that function in a composition. (I am not implying that the above role of lyrics is insignificant or unimportant. ) Based on your compositions, I do not think you would want that to be the objective either. Correct me if I am mis-interpreting or over/under-interpreting all this.
Yes, you are correct. I believe a "higher-level" integration of lyrics and music is a foundation of CM principles. The role of sahitya in CM goes beyond just facilitating the music (the latter in itself is also important, as you say).

SR

vijayagopal
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:53

Post by vijayagopal »

Whether secular or devotional, unless one understands what is the meaning, the singing will remain half the effort.
In carnatic music this problem has been persistantly troubling people.
Balance between the raga bhava and the sahitya bhava makes the performance more enjoyable.
Many singers do not really worry about the nuances of the meaning.
I get disturbed when a female vocalist performs "Enta muddo"
My reaction may be foolish.
Unfortunately since I know the meaning more than the music, it happens to me.
If it is a secular song, the meaning becomes much more important.
But, where is this discussion leading us to?

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

No one ever considered that sound itself is held sacred.

This came out just recently:

https://youtu.be/Eyh2Q7NIz1g?t=295

I skipped the damaged portions. People have cried at his feet to make him sing this in the U.S tours. Mangala dAyaka, mAmava sadguru

I know some of them - they don't know sanskrit. Now did I understand the meaning of it. Not quite. They are just a string of familiar words from the cultural exposure.

Now this is modern! If you didn't like the intonations of Madurai Mani Iyer, the Shrillness of MSS, and the harshness of Somu - here it is.

Look at the diverse musical tastes the music has catered to.

I am baffled by some of the statements of Sangeet Rasik.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

And even more baffling is the statement ( I will find the quote - may be it is in the TRS Telugu parent thread of this) by VGV, that Thyagarajas focus was only Rama and not music.

And even more baffling are the quotes by Udhay from svAmi vivEkananda about songs and music! If that is true, svAmi vivEkananda did not reflect the true essence of Indian civilization.

I may have to resort to a movie where Ranbir Kapoor acted as a Indian pop musician ( Kashmir setting) and a Bismillah khan like figure at one point tells him , how Hindustani music is a different animal!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by vgovindan »

shankarank,
By VGV, I think you are referring to me. I do not remember the exact circumstances of such a post. In any case, let me clarify my position.

Everyone has his own World-view of things. For me, music is a vehicle of communication. It is meant to carry me to my destination and not destination itself. Yes, it - music - is destination itself for those who understand that as nAda vidya and practice nAdOpAsana. There are many musicians even in the present century who would not stoop to sing to the gallery. I had quoted the example of a Muslim musician (HM) in one of the threads who preferred poverty.

When MD sings 'hIna mAnavASrayam tyajAmi', he did not make an empty rhetoric. Of late, in the name of popularising singing in Tamil, there seems to be a deliberate attempt to denigrate the Trinity - particularly tyAgarAja and make comments about his person - to show him as some sort of villain. It is very regrettable. Not that it makes any difference to tyAgarAja, but it shows the rasika community in poor light.

Coming to tyAgarAja and his compositions, let me make it clear, I am not here as an advocate for him. I am too puny even to talk about him. But, all the same, I will express my points.

Did vAlmIki write rAmAyaNa to derive literary appreciation? Did any of the great epic writers - vyAsa (mahAbhArata), kALidAsa or for that matter, English writers, Shakespeare etc write their epic works in order to earn literary appreciation? Everyone of these great people had a theme in order to express themselves.

Similarly, the theme of tyAgarAja was his rAga bhakti towards his ishTa dEvata - rAma. Music was ingrained in him and he used it as a vehicle to convey that. If he had not been endowed with music, he would have probably expressed himself in a poetic language or some such method.

How musicians conduct their performance, is their personal choice. How rasikas appreciate a musical performance is their personal choice. But music - Indian music - does not have pure entertainment as its goal. Those who look at it as entertainment only, may indeed be missing the bus. Well, it is their choice - no comments on that.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

You are comparing who may be siddha purushas with the attitudes of common people. I don't want to get into individual choices. But as a collective, we have to treat what we inherited as themselves a sacred things. That is not about just doing pUja to them. What if rAma is not my iShTa dEvata? Does that falsify tyagarAja's works, both the content and the music. If you come to your conclusions based on literary reading of his kritis, you are already removing the collective sense how you got there. Even on tyAgarAja , you tend to focus on the individual and his history.

By considering music as just some utility, or language as some utility, we ourselves seem to give room for "others" to enter the space!

tyAgaraja did not happen by himself. he is the result of the efforts of an ecology and evolution of a community, as he himself would acknowledge. I may be putting some extra sense into his words. So be it.

As regards people treating it as Entertainment, our ritual heritage is full of people seeking worldly ( I am consciously avoiding now the term material!) benefits. Oh we are so enlightened , we don't consider rituals as anything!

If you read Sangeet Rasik's poser, the demand is : we foray into themes without religious baggage! What is religious before it became a baggage? What is the basis on which anybody gets an aversion to anything like that? We need to study that. Who and which ideologies that implant such a hatred against such things!

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