Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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ogirala sri ramakrishna
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Post by ogirala sri ramakrishna »

some of the compositions of h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha ( sri ogirala veera raghava sarma garu ) , the saint composer of 20 th century are based on the secular themes. in one composition kula medaite nemira tana toli janmarjitamagu in the raga mamdara he has defined the secularism.

pallavi ; kula medaite nemira tana toli janmarjita karma phalajamagu ;; kula medaite ;;

naupallavi ;; jalajasana hari harulanu kanna talli para sakthini talachi dhanyudautaku ;; kula medaite ;;

charanam ;; dhara pradhi tatmaka magu bharatavani
baragu guna karma bhaga vasamuche
narudu nalgu varnamula janimchu
vivara merigina raghava vinutunakika ;; kula medaite ;;

you can find the song and meaning in tamil in my site bhakta gnanananda tirtha under title books, tamil.

in this it was told why , how the people take birth in india . the same thing was told in bhagavad gita.

some other songs on the secular ideas are ;

1. bhajimpaledani in the raga kedara
2. kalavari nammi in the raga arabhi.
3. nada namda anubhava saliki in the raga kharahara priya.
4. nede ninu sevimpa vale gani janani in the raga anamda bhairavi.
5.verri nammika to in the raga saveri
6.vidachi sukhimpave in the raga madhyamavati.
7.kadaneru janani in the raga bhairavi
8.mumdu vara lemairo in the raga purvi kalyani.
9. cheta kasu vunnapude dana dharmamulu in the raga maya malava gowla.
10. tanuve dharmardha in the ghana raga gowla.
11. vadali poye nadu in the raga purvi kalyani.
12. kala vikkrutamuna in the raga varali.
13. cheppu komti namma in the raga mukhari.
14.tana varani nammi in the raga sama.
15.valasina demi janani in the raga riti gowla.
16. emi gavalene manasa in the raga kedara gowla.

the essence of these songs will console any body irrespective of religion / caste / nationality.

veda mata gayatry expessed her fealings to mankind through these songs through her personnal devotee h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha .

all these songs and their meaning you will get from my above site.


o s ramakrishna

vainika
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Post by vainika »

vijay wrote:Vainika => Vaaggeyakaaraa! Nicely done although one has to strain to hear it against the voice-over...
Thanks, though I doubt an AlApanA can be considered a composition in and of itself. Incidentally, the more audible 13min version of the music is here.
Last edited by vainika on 22 Mar 2008, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Thanks that was indeed a lot better without the voice over

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

This is one imaginative sanchaaram that is a must be heard by us all at the Forum!
We might offer the title 'gIrvANi' (sound expert) instead of 'vAggeyekaara' to Ramki!

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

There is a general feeling that religious themes in Music is found mostly in Indian Music - particularly CM.
A brief history of Christian Religious themes in Western Music - known as 'Passion Setting' - and a specific reference to a Russian composer - Gubaidulina - is found in a Research paper - http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:eZ ... =clnk&cd=9

vijay
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Post by vijay »

The Church has certainly had a strong link with Westner Classical Music....Handel's Hallelujah Chorus comes to mind immediately and Bach's St. Mathew's Passion...Qawwali is also strongly associated with Sufism...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

How about the spirituals?

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

In addition to the classical compositions, most of the repertoire of the 'Family von Trapp' was either religious (including their delightful madrigals) or Austrian folk tunes. And, and Vijay says, music and dance were very much part of the mystical Sufis even if the rest of Islam was not so into it. Similarly, it was very interesting to hear a cantor at the bat mitzvah of the daughter of my boss. They are employed by the synagouge to lead the musical part of the Jewish service. So, the connection between music and religion is not just specific to Hinduism. I have attended completely 'musical' services in some churches, but I would not even begin to call the music remotely classical - they seem to have been based more on the Sister Act!
It looks like the concept of attaining god/godhead through music seems to be as ancient as (wo)man h(er)imself! :)

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

'Family von Trapp
'Sound of Music' is based on that, isn't it?
That revives old memories of Chennai where it was screened in Safire Theatre in mid 60's - it is in ruins now.
Wonderful songs!
Last edited by vgvindan on 25 Mar 2008, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa092700c.htm

western musical notations were devised by an Italian monk....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I have attended completely 'musical' services in some churches, but I would not even begin to call the music remotely classical - they seem to have been based more on the Sister Act!
Ravi: That brings it back to the main theme of this thread. That kind of gospel music, when secularized became the foundation of soul music, popularized by the likes of Ray Charles.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

vgvindan wrote:'Sound of Music' is based on that, isn't it?
Maria von Trapp wrote several books, the first of which was "the story of the Trapp family singers'. A couple of Austro-German movies were based on it, before Sound of Music was made from the first half of the book. Taking liberties with the story line so that it would have commercial appeal, Sound of Music can at best be considered to be loosely based on the life of 'Der Familie von Trapp'.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Ravi: That brings it back to the main theme of this thread.
Coming full circle - 'circle of life' a la the Lion King?;)

tmohan
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Post by tmohan »

I am reminded of the words of the Nature Poet, William Wordsworth in one of his famous poems the Solitary Reaper

“The music in my heart I bore,
Long after it was heard no more.â€

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

"There was a bard of great fame
'Sacrifice-King' was his name
Artists make a living
use his kriti-s for singing
But he gets no fee, true to his name!
(No royalty to a raja? Is it not a shame?)"
From an article by Sri MV Ramana in 'Outlook' on "Thyagaraja's Contribution to Art Music' - the pdf version may be downloaded from http://www.geocities.com/m_v_ramana/karnatic.html

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

There was a bard of great renown
All his life he was quite unknown
They built a shrine to him honour show
Glaring lights and bejewelled bevies there together crow
'Oh What a mess' his plaintive soul in heav'n sighs
'tis reality in mudane world' Rama smiling says


(overheard :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Glad to hear what you 'overheard' :)

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Dear All,

Thanks for continuing the discussion on this subject. A few clarifications before continuing:

I did not mean to suggest that the connection of music with religious belief was confined to India as some in the thread seem to be interpreting. There is no doubt that almost all "classical" music systems have had religious origins. That is not in dispute.

However, it is worth noting that as further developments took place, the "religious" elements have been more and more separated from the development of the "classical" music systems. What we know today as "European art music" or "Western classical music" has very little that is religious in theme. The religious themes have been mainly channeled into other venues that are of a semi-classical nature. The same is true in Hindustani music wherein the "bhajans" accomplish this more effectively. This is also necessary for Carnatic music but is happening more slowly.
tmohan wrote:There are no dearth of secular based lyrics in South India, mainly in TN (as the oldest Dravidian Language). They have to be set to music and rendered properly taking to the common folks.
That is not the aim of classical carnatic music. Setting existing lyrics to music is not the realm of "uttama vaggeyakaras". Leaving aside the works of the Trinity and a few other composers of merit, the overwhelming majority of the post-Trinity "religious" compositions lack the stamp of classicism. On top of this, why add on more mediocrity ?
If we want the music to be secular (whether it is CM or HM or any M), it has to first gain popularity (not cheap popularity- Like some of the Bharati songs by DKP, MSS ) amongst common folk, which is possible only with light classical music.
To try and steer the discussion back to where it was, let me clarify that "secularization" is not about increasing the appeal with the "common man". There are plenty of "non-common" people of intelligence and sophistication that have nothing in common with the religious base of CM, but can appreciate it much better without religious baggage.
IMHO, We have to exploit the service of the media properly which CM has neglected since 60’s.
In this respect, I entirely agree with you. Poor quality recordings in CM are probably both the fault of mediocre recording media as well as poor quality of voice training and lack of attention to detail.

SR

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

This is also necessary for Carnatic music but is happening more slowly.
Why? Let CM chalk out its own path.

Not sure about your comment on Western classical music. Take for e.g. Handel's Messiah, Bach's Hallelujah, Mozart's requiems, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff's choral music etc etc. They are all steeped in the religious tradition.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Are we discussing Bhakti or secular themes in Carnatic Music?
Desa Bhakti is also Bhakti.
Bharatiyars compositions are examples.
Balamurali composed mnay items on secular themes.
Can we talk about them?

Kannula Panduga Russia is an item which can roll the ball!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

In this secular vs religious discussion, lyrics seems to be the main conveyor of that theme. Western Classical is predominantly instrumental and so that may not compare well. In current day HM concerts, lyrics do not seem to figure that much to warrant a comparison. In Bhajan based HM where lyrics play a big role, it is by definition bhakthi.

So, if we are looking for examples somewhere as a model for the secular evolution of CM ( the necessity of it etc. ), WC and HM do not seem to be chief contenders.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Hum ko man ki shakti dena - kedar - is secular in content

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

ragam-talam wrote:Why? Let CM chalk out its own path.

Not sure about your comment on Western classical music. Take for e.g. Handel's Messiah, Bach's Hallelujah, Mozart's requiems, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff's choral music etc etc. They are all steeped in the religious tradition.
I don't deny this. But european classical music has also been continuously evolving. The compositions of modern (living) composers are by and large secular...there is very little that is religious. As for the appearance of religious compositions in the past, it is the usual suspects that are responsible:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/arts/ ... ts/M/Music

Excerpt:

"One reason that less important music is being written for churches is that composers have other things on their minds: among them, making a living. Churches were once the center of life, and centers of wealth and power as well. Composers thrived in their employ in times when public concerts barely existed. The rich commissioned liturgical pieces as their personal upscale rapprochements with God. What money for composers circulates today is largely in secular hands.

The decline in classical music and the decline of the Roman Catholic Church have things in common. Musical audiences dwindle and age; church attendance in Europe has dropped precipitously; and evangelical and fundamentalist movements in once solidly Catholic Latin America are growing exponentially."

I am not sure what you mean by "let CM chalk its own path". As far as I can see, it will be the CM artists (composers, musicians) and also the rasiks who will chalk out that path. I am not an "outsider" trying to impose my views.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vijayagopal wrote:Are we discussing Bhakti or secular themes in Carnatic Music?
Desa Bhakti is also Bhakti.
Bharatiyars compositions are examples.
Balamurali composed mnay items on secular themes.
Can we talk about them?

Kannula Panduga Russia is an item which can roll the ball!
By all means, please discuss them. But one disagreement: "deshbhakti" is not "bhakti" in the religious sense. It should be secular versus relgious, not secular versus "bhakti" (devotion). "Deshbhakti" = "nationalism" is essentially secular. Even "Hindutva-based" nationalism is based primarily upon adherence to the philosophical tenets of Hinduism, not insistence that everyone should start reciting Vedas or sing Ram-Krishna bhajans.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:In this secular vs religious discussion, lyrics seems to be the main conveyor of that theme. Western Classical is predominantly instrumental and so that may not compare well. In current day HM concerts, lyrics do not seem to figure that much to warrant a comparison. In Bhajan based HM where lyrics play a big role, it is by definition bhakthi.

So, if we are looking for examples somewhere as a model for the secular evolution of CM ( the necessity of it etc. ), WC and HM do not seem to be chief contenders.
I am not using WC or HM as a "model" for CM, but only as illustrations. WC has both instrumental and vocal (I consider opera to be as "classical" as the instrumental WC). It is also a mistake to say that lyrics are unimportant in HM. The HM compositions, while appearing to be deceptively simple on the face, have a way of giving full expression to the music and are designed to do so. As mentioned earlier, CM has to "find its own path" but one can definitely learn something from tracking the development of other "classical" music forms.

SR

arasi
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Post by arasi »

SR,
A valid point about the decline of religious compositions in western music. Even for the dwindling number of church goers, there is plenty of old music to go around for many years to come.
In India today, while modern art has become acceptable, we are still not ready for secular songs in CM, it seems. BhArati's verses, SuddhAnanda bhArati's and vEdanAyakam piLLAi's songs were and are often heard without the rasikAs being conscious that they are secular in nature. Of course, such compositions have to have quality. Otherwise, they may not survive.
Above all, we should not have an unreasonable fear that secular songs would oust the great compositions which are religious in nature.
An excellent composition might sound as good as a tyAgarAjA kriti (with say, the philosophical enquiry of a cakkani rAja forgetting the caraNAm where rAmA is addressed).
If that is how a song comes to a composer whether he or she is a bhaktA or not, so be it.
An added asset about such a song--even a person who worships a different god might want to sing it if the song is appealing to his sensibilities...

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

SR, understood, the 'model' vs 'illustration' distinction. Opera is classical but that compares more with dramas where music plays an integrated major role. That is a separate discussion.

Coming to think of it, the current state of lyrics in HM is a good example/illustration to study. I accept on full faith and at face value what you say "(HM Lyrics)....have a way of giving full expression to the music and are designed to do so". That is worth some reflection if that is indeed the function of lyrics in HM. I am not sure many would want CM lyrics to necessarily evolve to that function in a composition. (I am not implying that the above role of lyrics is insignificant or unimportant. ) Based on your compositions, I do not think you would want that to be the objective either. Correct me if I am mis-interpreting or over/under-interpreting all this.

As I have written before, I am all far expanding the scope and content of CM lyrics. This sub-discussion is mainly about using WC and HM as examples where evolution into a Bhakthi+Secular or predominantly secular format had contributed to the expansion of the intellectually oriented rasikas base. To the limited extent the comparisons provide useful value as illustrations, it will be useful to examine the cultural context in which that evolution had happened and the resulting transformation of the nature, importance and function of the lyrics themselves.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

arasi wrote:Of course, such compositions have to have quality. Otherwise, they may not survive.
Above all, we should not have an unreasonable fear that secular songs would oust the great compositions which are religious in nature....
Agreed, it is all about quality irrespective of religious or secular. As I mentioned in previous post, the vast majority of compositions which are currently considered "classical" do not fit the bill. The fact that they are set in a classical raga and tala does not automatically qualify them. I think they should be moved into "semi-classical" or "bhajan" genres.

The majority of MD/SS/T/ST compositions add genuine music, literary, and intellectual value to CM and should be considered "classical". Outside of these four composers, there are perhaps a few hundred other compositions (by a diverse range of composers) that can be considered to add value in some manner, e.g., either showing some new facets of a raga or some literary value in terms of integrating lyrics and music. The rest are rehashes of the same themes (many with "borrowed phrases") and with the same ragas and raga lakshanas recurring with no novelty.

For example, take raga Kalyani. The four composers above have explored the raga in vast detail. Yet there are a spate of later compositions rehashing the same concepts with no added value. The exceptions that add new value (like a "nijadAsavarada" by Subrahmanya Iyer) are few and far between.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:I am not sure many would want CM lyrics to necessarily evolve to that function in a composition. (I am not implying that the above role of lyrics is insignificant or unimportant. ) Based on your compositions, I do not think you would want that to be the objective either. Correct me if I am mis-interpreting or over/under-interpreting all this.
Yes, you are correct. I believe a "higher-level" integration of lyrics and music is a foundation of CM principles. The role of sahitya in CM goes beyond just facilitating the music (the latter in itself is also important, as you say).

SR

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Whether secular or devotional, unless one understands what is the meaning, the singing will remain half the effort.
In carnatic music this problem has been persistantly troubling people.
Balance between the raga bhava and the sahitya bhava makes the performance more enjoyable.
Many singers do not really worry about the nuances of the meaning.
I get disturbed when a female vocalist performs "Enta muddo"
My reaction may be foolish.
Unfortunately since I know the meaning more than the music, it happens to me.
If it is a secular song, the meaning becomes much more important.
But, where is this discussion leading us to?

shankarank
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Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

No one ever considered that sound itself is held sacred.

This came out just recently:

https://youtu.be/Eyh2Q7NIz1g?t=295

I skipped the damaged portions. People have cried at his feet to make him sing this in the U.S tours. Mangala dAyaka, mAmava sadguru

I know some of them - they don't know sanskrit. Now did I understand the meaning of it. Not quite. They are just a string of familiar words from the cultural exposure.

Now this is modern! If you didn't like the intonations of Madurai Mani Iyer, the Shrillness of MSS, and the harshness of Somu - here it is.

Look at the diverse musical tastes the music has catered to.

I am baffled by some of the statements of Sangeet Rasik.

shankarank
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Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

And even more baffling is the statement ( I will find the quote - may be it is in the TRS Telugu parent thread of this) by VGV, that Thyagarajas focus was only Rama and not music.

And even more baffling are the quotes by Udhay from svAmi vivEkananda about songs and music! If that is true, svAmi vivEkananda did not reflect the true essence of Indian civilization.

I may have to resort to a movie where Ranbir Kapoor acted as a Indian pop musician ( Kashmir setting) and a Bismillah khan like figure at one point tells him , how Hindustani music is a different animal!

vgovindan
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Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by vgovindan »

shankarank,
By VGV, I think you are referring to me. I do not remember the exact circumstances of such a post. In any case, let me clarify my position.

Everyone has his own World-view of things. For me, music is a vehicle of communication. It is meant to carry me to my destination and not destination itself. Yes, it - music - is destination itself for those who understand that as nAda vidya and practice nAdOpAsana. There are many musicians even in the present century who would not stoop to sing to the gallery. I had quoted the example of a Muslim musician (HM) in one of the threads who preferred poverty.

When MD sings 'hIna mAnavASrayam tyajAmi', he did not make an empty rhetoric. Of late, in the name of popularising singing in Tamil, there seems to be a deliberate attempt to denigrate the Trinity - particularly tyAgarAja and make comments about his person - to show him as some sort of villain. It is very regrettable. Not that it makes any difference to tyAgarAja, but it shows the rasika community in poor light.

Coming to tyAgarAja and his compositions, let me make it clear, I am not here as an advocate for him. I am too puny even to talk about him. But, all the same, I will express my points.

Did vAlmIki write rAmAyaNa to derive literary appreciation? Did any of the great epic writers - vyAsa (mahAbhArata), kALidAsa or for that matter, English writers, Shakespeare etc write their epic works in order to earn literary appreciation? Everyone of these great people had a theme in order to express themselves.

Similarly, the theme of tyAgarAja was his rAga bhakti towards his ishTa dEvata - rAma. Music was ingrained in him and he used it as a vehicle to convey that. If he had not been endowed with music, he would have probably expressed himself in a poetic language or some such method.

How musicians conduct their performance, is their personal choice. How rasikas appreciate a musical performance is their personal choice. But music - Indian music - does not have pure entertainment as its goal. Those who look at it as entertainment only, may indeed be missing the bus. Well, it is their choice - no comments on that.

shankarank
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Re: Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Post by shankarank »

You are comparing who may be siddha purushas with the attitudes of common people. I don't want to get into individual choices. But as a collective, we have to treat what we inherited as themselves a sacred things. That is not about just doing pUja to them. What if rAma is not my iShTa dEvata? Does that falsify tyagarAja's works, both the content and the music. If you come to your conclusions based on literary reading of his kritis, you are already removing the collective sense how you got there. Even on tyAgarAja , you tend to focus on the individual and his history.

By considering music as just some utility, or language as some utility, we ourselves seem to give room for "others" to enter the space!

tyAgaraja did not happen by himself. he is the result of the efforts of an ecology and evolution of a community, as he himself would acknowledge. I may be putting some extra sense into his words. So be it.

As regards people treating it as Entertainment, our ritual heritage is full of people seeking worldly ( I am consciously avoiding now the term material!) benefits. Oh we are so enlightened , we don't consider rituals as anything!

If you read Sangeet Rasik's poser, the demand is : we foray into themes without religious baggage! What is religious before it became a baggage? What is the basis on which anybody gets an aversion to anything like that? We need to study that. Who and which ideologies that implant such a hatred against such things!

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