Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, Understood your positions and view points and I respect those.
In fact, if I drop my forcefully worn system thinking hat and be a normal and regular rasika of the Trinity that I indeed am, I would be with you toe to toe, 100%.

Also, what I have been referring to as 'Survivor Bias' is about History itself ( which applies to all of History where there is a compressed narrative ). I do not mean to question the 'deservedness' of the popularity of the Trinity or imply that popularity was somehow 'accidental'. Who am I to do that? And secondly, I have the utmost respect and reverence for them and consider them great as well. Needless to say, I am a big fan.

( I also edited my post above to make my disclaimers even more strong that what I wrote is not in any way to be construed as Anti Trinity view points. )

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK I too perfectly understand that your views are not anti-trinty but for the sake of scientific argument. Unfortunately the devotee in me cannot see reason when the trinity is concerned...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Ah, such a gentlemanly discussion !

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

If I had not been exposed to CM in the context of the Trinity and if one were to hand over to me the kritis of theirs, I would just be bored reading through them since they have less than average literary merit or even philosophical (I am not downplaying bhakti here !). Since I do not understand Telugu, as I go through the translations of T and SS I do not get excited about any of their expressions (perhaps there is intrinsic literary beauty which only a native Telugu may enjoy!). On the otherhand when I read Bharati or Kamban or vaLLuvar I am impressed by not just the language but also the depth of ideas. I am not thrilled reading MD's lyrics (minus the music) since they are just a mega string of bahuvrIhis. My knowledge of sanskrit is adequate to understand and analyze them. When I think of kalidasa, bhavabuti, bhAravi (let alone valmiki or vyasa) I would rank MD's literary appeal below the bottom 10 percentile. Pl do not misunderstand: I am not putting down the Trinity. On the otherhand when the Trinity songs are rendered in CM I am transported to a different world. It is CM that is the magic and not the words in their lyric I derive more bhakti reading a stotra composed by shankaracharya than simply 'reading' a verse of MD. The sonorous sequence of words in a sahasranamam is more evocative than the durita kaalam of MD (again minus the music!). So I often wonder what drags me to the music of the Trinity. I reach the heights of ecsatasy during certain nerevals and emotive expressions knowing fully well the meaning therein is just blase. Why can't the same magic be applied to lyrics which have greater depth and philosophical import? The other day I was listening to 'telisiraama' sung by a noname artiste(certainly no MMI :) But then I was transported into a dreamworld by the rhythm and melody which will I get if the song had been 'veRRi eTTu dhikkum eTTa..' (of bhArti) in the same raga and rhythm? certainly not! There is one and only telisirama whether I understand the meaning or not! I think it is this spirit of CM which was captured by the Trinity that we laud! No amount of secular or other linguistic compositions can capture it until we decode and find out what makes them tick! I for one woud like to know....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think it is this spirit of CM which was captured by the Trinity that we laud! No amount of secular or other linguistic compositions can capture it until we decode and find out what makes them tick! I for one woud like to know....
Good post CML. And the essence of what you are wondering is captured by the above sentence and is very much relevant to this thread. My first thought is 'It is the music ( melody and rhythm ) stupid!' but then I get a feeling it is not just the music. If so, what is it? It is worth exploring.

If I take an inventory of my top 100 songs (in all genres, Indian classical, Indian non-classical, western etc.), 50% of them are in languages that I do not understand the meaning at all. But if I do take the pain to understand the meaning, the benefit I get from the song increases ( usually ).

For example, these three hindi film songs are definitely in my top 20 of non-classical songs:

Jo Wada Kiya Wo Nibhana Padega ( tajmehal )
aaj phir jeene ke tamana hai ( guide )
Mausam hai Aashiqana (pakiza)

All these years I did not know the meaning of the lyrics of these songs but the sound of the words and how they were put together are attractive and of course, the melody is the primary attraction. That was good enough. A punjabi friend of mine was quite puzzled that I like the song 'Mausam hai Aashiqana' so much but I do not know the meaning at all and he took the pains to give me word for word meaning. Fortunately, in this case, it only enhanced my enjoyment of this song.

So there are three layers: The music ( tune and beat ), the sonorous aspects of the words themselves: (The rhyming, juxtaposition of suitable words etc. ) and the meaning carried by the words.

So it looks like one can enjoy a piece of music with just the first two but the third one is a nice luxury but a significant one for many rasikas. Trinity's success is probably in excelling in all three, so that people can enjoy them in piece parts and also in full. If excellence in one of these three is a rare commodity, I guess the synthesis and synergy of all those three are even rarer. The Trinity excelled in that fusing together of those three aspects to synthesize something that has withstood the test of time.

Here is a simple framework that I just put together:

The rasa of the meaning is at one end. (M)
The rasa of the tune is at one end (T)
The words are in the middle.(W)

If they all match together well aesthetically, people can enjoy the song in different combinations.

T
T-W
T-W-M
W-M ( this is more about poetry and literature )
T-M (when the music and the phrasing carries the meaning at some high abstract level.)

etc.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

During the 50's Hindi songs made vast inroads into the TN Film world. Most in TN knew no Hindi but the music of Naushad/Burman/... in the voice of Lata/Rafi/Mukesh/ stole the hearts of the people. In fact the cine directors tried to imitate those tunes with tamil lyrics some of which became popular due to the melody of MLV/Jikki/Bhanumati etc., Many of those songs are still popular! PSivan indeed fashioned many of his songs after T which also had intrinsic linguistic merit and hence got accepted in concerts (primarily due to the efforts of Kalki/Sadashivam/..) The die-hards however would not sing them in the early days! But they would sing them in rural areas and temples where they attracted huge audience only through Tamil songs. There have been cases in Madras where the Patrons have walked out once a Tamil song was commenced :) Hence it is not all that non-political.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
An illuminating post from you. I think, minus any bias, one has to agree with what you say. How many would voice it, is another thing!
VK,
Great! You would know why I would put meaning in the middle (at the very center). After all, whether you understand it fully or not, that is what makes the words flow and find their right places in a song.Since my songs come out of me with the tune, I can say that those which flow out of me in a specially inspired moment somehow end up being musically pleasing too...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

arasi
That is the sign of a 'uttama vaggeyakara'. The lyric being born with the music. In the case of the Trinity most often the lyrics were born with the music which is why we cannot separate the two. There are indeed examples even among them where sometimes the songs are not smooth and you can tell that those songs were contrived. Herein is the difference between songs which are 'born' compare to those whcih are set to music later by somebody else.

I have heard that the musical idioms came naturally to Mali and he was never taught! If we self-analyze how we think and construct sentences and talk we can visualize how a gifted musician can think in the 'language of the music' which is precisely what the Trinity did! That would be a rational explanation debunking the invocation of any divina machina :) We all have some inherent potential in that direction inside us but are hesitent to explore them out of shyness or fear of external ridicule. Aren't we all great 'bath-room' singers :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi: Yes, I do understand. Songs ( meaningful words and music ) come to you and out of you as a whole, so the separation into the three layers is unnecessary and will be unnatural. Also, you are a different type of Vaggeyakara than what SR talks about which is more a conscious effort in sculpting the words and music.

Also, words are carriers of meaning and music is a carrier of meaning too. In that sense, 'meaning' is the predominant thing and is at the very center. Well said.

When the musical meaning as perceived by the listener and the lyrical meaning are in phase, the rasika's enjoyment of the song is multifold.

Most people would tend to say that musical meaning is abstract whereas the lyrical meaning is more direct. That is probably true. But the lyrical meaning seems more direct because we use that million times more and we are all trained from childhood to associate words with abstract meaning and it comes naturaly to us.

Take for example the word 'Bird'. 'Bird' itself does not exist in the real world, there are specific types of birds, Cuckoo, Sparrow, Eagle etc. and there are specific instances of Cuckoos and sparrows and eagles but where is a Bird? We have a certain set of 'attributes' of what 'birdness' is and associate that as the meaning of the word 'Bird'. In that sense 'Bird' is quite abstract but language is so second nature to us that we do not need to go through all that 'association' process to relate to it.

Music carries such an abstract meaning. Ragas to some extent codify that meaning as a rasa but there may be much more to it. Carrying the above analogy, the raga is like 'Bird' and each song in a raga is like a specific type of bird, say Cuckoo. And each time a song is sung in a specific raga, it is a unique thing, like a specific instance of that bird, like 'the Cuckoo XYZ that is sitting there in that tree'.

Vaggeyakaras and to some extent Rasikas, in varying degrees, can tap into the abstract meaning carried by the Raga in a more direct form like the way 'Bird' carries directly that abstract meaning. For the rest of us, the various songs and their performances are necessary to get at the same meaning.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

On the mark VK
A raga is just like a nonspecific Bird
When MS sings the Bird becomes a 'kOkilaM' (cuckoo)
When she sings hariharaputram it becomes 'vasanthakokilam' :)

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

VK,
vasanthakokilam wrote:...than what SR talks about which is more a conscious effort in sculpting the words and music.
The seed of all creativity is "inspirational". However, all forms of art, especially classical art, have certain "rules" and "parameters". These exist for a specific reason, i.e. to channel that creativity into a most productive and aesthetically pleasing form, not to restrict it.

I do not believe at all that there was a huge difference between, e.g. the composition process of Tyagaraja and Dikshitar. Both must have been "inspired" to imagine the seed of the composition in at least a crude form. Thereafter, both (in Tyagaraja's case, the disciples were also probably involved) would have "polished" the compositions. Both Tyagaraja and Dikshitar must certainly have realized that music and words flow together in CM to create a single whole, and must have paid conscious attention to both when creating the final form of a composition. A composition like "sogasuga mrdangatalamu" makes clear to me the conscious effort that Tyagaraja made with his compositions.

SR

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

SR, I do see your point, though we do not know if there was a mixture of spontaneous songs and 'worked on' songs with either one. The one aspect that bolsters either side of the argument is the various templates under which the songs can be classified. It can go either way. One can say the various archetypical structures of both MD and T point to a 'polishing' but the fact that such structures exist and they have composed many such songs in them alerady, gives them the space to spontaneously fit newer songs...

I find the following with Thyagaraja's songs, for example. The various Desadi tala krithis in smaller and scalar ragas follow a template. Given the Aro/Ava of such an uncomplicated non-vakra raga and the lyrics, one can take a shot at how the song will go. It is fun to do and see how close one gets to the actual song.

In one sense, I can consider those templates as codification of the rules and restrictions that you mention, a 'macro' of sorts.

If such melodic and structural templates are deeply ingrained and internalized, then I do not see why the same facilities that extempore speakers/poets employ would not apply to song creation. Taking one rather 'from left field' example that comes to my mind now, Lloyd Bentsen's "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.". That was on the fly. Sorry, I do not mean to compare LB with T or MD, but I hope you get my drift. Emtemporaneous poetry, with all the rules of poetry in tact, is a tradition in India, isn't it?. It is quite amazing when such a thing is done well, especially in a back and forth manner where immediate creation is mandatory.

The genius is in taking extemporaneous outpourings of poetic words and casting them into those internalized melodic and rhythmic structures.

Again, I do not mean to discount the polishing aspects but just putting forth a possible hypotheis on how 'finished' compositions can come out extemporaneously.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, Nice..:)

vainika
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Post by vainika »

Here's a short short film (on a secular theme) produced by UK-based filmmaker Abhi Arumbakkam, for which I provided the music background.
http://www.channel4.com/fourdocs/film/f ... p?id=67305

I realize this is only tangential to the discussion of secular themes in CM, but I found the film very moving and thought some of you might too...
Last edited by vainika on 20 Mar 2008, 16:52, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Ramki,

Thanks for sharing. Very unobtrusive, but soothing music in the background! I did not get the purpose behind the mini-documentary, but that is not the theme of this thread, so I do not want to digress.

Ravi

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Very nice vainika:
A poignant story and the music is totally unobstrusive yet appropriate. Did you have any particular raga in mind while playing?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

I can't get it. Please, could someone help? I know, my computer is growing old with me...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I think it is kIravANi.

Not surprisingly I can relate to this a lot. I too know one of my grandmothers only from old, faded black and white portraits. My memories/connections to her are via those, and flashes of reflections of her facial features that I see at times in my relatives. I remember long time ago gazing at my peacefully sleeping child, how her forehead+eyes part for a second starkly reminded me of a woman I have never seen, and will never see in life :) Strange - how our feelings work.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2008, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arasi - perhaps you need Quicktime player?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Sorry arasi
It cannot be downloaded but it is a windows media file which plays in your windowmedia player!
Arun
These are very sensitive feeliings which provoke pain and pleasure at the same time. They are in our genes and we should always be respectful of their memories and the sacrifices they may have made on our behalf. Hence the pit^Ri karmas are very meaningful which everyone should observe! it is sad there are many in the present young generations who do not care for their immediate parents even when they are alive....

I could bot sense kIravaaNi, but will wait to hear from Ramki....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

very nice Vainika.

I sense Kiravani too.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

It is sure kIravANi..

the moment I started watching this video the image of a potrait of my Grandmother hanging at my home in India came to my mind. I was only 7 months when she passed away..not sure even if she had seen me..such a question came to my mind today...

vainika
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Post by vainika »

cmlover wrote:... but will wait to hear from Ramki....
CML, confirmed; though I confess my heart sank at your question -> was it that hard to identify? :( If, on the other hand, your question was about why I chose this rAga for the theme, the answer is I didn't. The filmmaker found it on the web while googling for kIravANI and asked to use an excerpt.
Last edited by vainika on 21 Mar 2008, 02:30, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

No problem with your kIravANi at all, but I was so absorbed in the story going with the music and was wondering about your accompaniment accordingly. I also looked at the other videos of the artiste ; they were all nice and very sensitive. I wish he had more on that 91year-old lady with an appropriate accompaniment fromyou....

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Vainika => Vaaggeyakaaraa! Nicely done although one has to strain to hear it against the voice-over...

ogirala sri ramakrishna
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Post by ogirala sri ramakrishna »

some of the compositions of h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha ( sri ogirala veera raghava sarma garu ) , the saint composer of 20 th century are based on the secular themes. in one composition kula medaite nemira tana toli janmarjitamagu in the raga mamdara he has defined the secularism.

pallavi ; kula medaite nemira tana toli janmarjita karma phalajamagu ;; kula medaite ;;

naupallavi ;; jalajasana hari harulanu kanna talli para sakthini talachi dhanyudautaku ;; kula medaite ;;

charanam ;; dhara pradhi tatmaka magu bharatavani
baragu guna karma bhaga vasamuche
narudu nalgu varnamula janimchu
vivara merigina raghava vinutunakika ;; kula medaite ;;

you can find the song and meaning in tamil in my site bhakta gnanananda tirtha under title books, tamil.

in this it was told why , how the people take birth in india . the same thing was told in bhagavad gita.

some other songs on the secular ideas are ;

1. bhajimpaledani in the raga kedara
2. kalavari nammi in the raga arabhi.
3. nada namda anubhava saliki in the raga kharahara priya.
4. nede ninu sevimpa vale gani janani in the raga anamda bhairavi.
5.verri nammika to in the raga saveri
6.vidachi sukhimpave in the raga madhyamavati.
7.kadaneru janani in the raga bhairavi
8.mumdu vara lemairo in the raga purvi kalyani.
9. cheta kasu vunnapude dana dharmamulu in the raga maya malava gowla.
10. tanuve dharmardha in the ghana raga gowla.
11. vadali poye nadu in the raga purvi kalyani.
12. kala vikkrutamuna in the raga varali.
13. cheppu komti namma in the raga mukhari.
14.tana varani nammi in the raga sama.
15.valasina demi janani in the raga riti gowla.
16. emi gavalene manasa in the raga kedara gowla.

the essence of these songs will console any body irrespective of religion / caste / nationality.

veda mata gayatry expessed her fealings to mankind through these songs through her personnal devotee h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha .

all these songs and their meaning you will get from my above site.


o s ramakrishna

vainika
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Post by vainika »

vijay wrote:Vainika => Vaaggeyakaaraa! Nicely done although one has to strain to hear it against the voice-over...
Thanks, though I doubt an AlApanA can be considered a composition in and of itself. Incidentally, the more audible 13min version of the music is here.
Last edited by vainika on 22 Mar 2008, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Thanks that was indeed a lot better without the voice over

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

This is one imaginative sanchaaram that is a must be heard by us all at the Forum!
We might offer the title 'gIrvANi' (sound expert) instead of 'vAggeyekaara' to Ramki!

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

There is a general feeling that religious themes in Music is found mostly in Indian Music - particularly CM.
A brief history of Christian Religious themes in Western Music - known as 'Passion Setting' - and a specific reference to a Russian composer - Gubaidulina - is found in a Research paper - http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:eZ ... =clnk&cd=9

vijay
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Post by vijay »

The Church has certainly had a strong link with Westner Classical Music....Handel's Hallelujah Chorus comes to mind immediately and Bach's St. Mathew's Passion...Qawwali is also strongly associated with Sufism...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

How about the spirituals?

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

In addition to the classical compositions, most of the repertoire of the 'Family von Trapp' was either religious (including their delightful madrigals) or Austrian folk tunes. And, and Vijay says, music and dance were very much part of the mystical Sufis even if the rest of Islam was not so into it. Similarly, it was very interesting to hear a cantor at the bat mitzvah of the daughter of my boss. They are employed by the synagouge to lead the musical part of the Jewish service. So, the connection between music and religion is not just specific to Hinduism. I have attended completely 'musical' services in some churches, but I would not even begin to call the music remotely classical - they seem to have been based more on the Sister Act!
It looks like the concept of attaining god/godhead through music seems to be as ancient as (wo)man h(er)imself! :)

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

'Family von Trapp
'Sound of Music' is based on that, isn't it?
That revives old memories of Chennai where it was screened in Safire Theatre in mid 60's - it is in ruins now.
Wonderful songs!
Last edited by vgvindan on 25 Mar 2008, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa092700c.htm

western musical notations were devised by an Italian monk....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I have attended completely 'musical' services in some churches, but I would not even begin to call the music remotely classical - they seem to have been based more on the Sister Act!
Ravi: That brings it back to the main theme of this thread. That kind of gospel music, when secularized became the foundation of soul music, popularized by the likes of Ray Charles.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

vgvindan wrote:'Sound of Music' is based on that, isn't it?
Maria von Trapp wrote several books, the first of which was "the story of the Trapp family singers'. A couple of Austro-German movies were based on it, before Sound of Music was made from the first half of the book. Taking liberties with the story line so that it would have commercial appeal, Sound of Music can at best be considered to be loosely based on the life of 'Der Familie von Trapp'.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Ravi: That brings it back to the main theme of this thread.
Coming full circle - 'circle of life' a la the Lion King?;)

tmohan
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Post by tmohan »

I am reminded of the words of the Nature Poet, William Wordsworth in one of his famous poems the Solitary Reaper

“The music in my heart I bore,
Long after it was heard no more.â€

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

"There was a bard of great fame
'Sacrifice-King' was his name
Artists make a living
use his kriti-s for singing
But he gets no fee, true to his name!
(No royalty to a raja? Is it not a shame?)"
From an article by Sri MV Ramana in 'Outlook' on "Thyagaraja's Contribution to Art Music' - the pdf version may be downloaded from http://www.geocities.com/m_v_ramana/karnatic.html

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

There was a bard of great renown
All his life he was quite unknown
They built a shrine to him honour show
Glaring lights and bejewelled bevies there together crow
'Oh What a mess' his plaintive soul in heav'n sighs
'tis reality in mudane world' Rama smiling says


(overheard :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Glad to hear what you 'overheard' :)

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Dear All,

Thanks for continuing the discussion on this subject. A few clarifications before continuing:

I did not mean to suggest that the connection of music with religious belief was confined to India as some in the thread seem to be interpreting. There is no doubt that almost all "classical" music systems have had religious origins. That is not in dispute.

However, it is worth noting that as further developments took place, the "religious" elements have been more and more separated from the development of the "classical" music systems. What we know today as "European art music" or "Western classical music" has very little that is religious in theme. The religious themes have been mainly channeled into other venues that are of a semi-classical nature. The same is true in Hindustani music wherein the "bhajans" accomplish this more effectively. This is also necessary for Carnatic music but is happening more slowly.
tmohan wrote:There are no dearth of secular based lyrics in South India, mainly in TN (as the oldest Dravidian Language). They have to be set to music and rendered properly taking to the common folks.
That is not the aim of classical carnatic music. Setting existing lyrics to music is not the realm of "uttama vaggeyakaras". Leaving aside the works of the Trinity and a few other composers of merit, the overwhelming majority of the post-Trinity "religious" compositions lack the stamp of classicism. On top of this, why add on more mediocrity ?
If we want the music to be secular (whether it is CM or HM or any M), it has to first gain popularity (not cheap popularity- Like some of the Bharati songs by DKP, MSS ) amongst common folk, which is possible only with light classical music.
To try and steer the discussion back to where it was, let me clarify that "secularization" is not about increasing the appeal with the "common man". There are plenty of "non-common" people of intelligence and sophistication that have nothing in common with the religious base of CM, but can appreciate it much better without religious baggage.
IMHO, We have to exploit the service of the media properly which CM has neglected since 60’s.
In this respect, I entirely agree with you. Poor quality recordings in CM are probably both the fault of mediocre recording media as well as poor quality of voice training and lack of attention to detail.

SR

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

This is also necessary for Carnatic music but is happening more slowly.
Why? Let CM chalk out its own path.

Not sure about your comment on Western classical music. Take for e.g. Handel's Messiah, Bach's Hallelujah, Mozart's requiems, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff's choral music etc etc. They are all steeped in the religious tradition.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Are we discussing Bhakti or secular themes in Carnatic Music?
Desa Bhakti is also Bhakti.
Bharatiyars compositions are examples.
Balamurali composed mnay items on secular themes.
Can we talk about them?

Kannula Panduga Russia is an item which can roll the ball!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

In this secular vs religious discussion, lyrics seems to be the main conveyor of that theme. Western Classical is predominantly instrumental and so that may not compare well. In current day HM concerts, lyrics do not seem to figure that much to warrant a comparison. In Bhajan based HM where lyrics play a big role, it is by definition bhakthi.

So, if we are looking for examples somewhere as a model for the secular evolution of CM ( the necessity of it etc. ), WC and HM do not seem to be chief contenders.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Hum ko man ki shakti dena - kedar - is secular in content

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

ragam-talam wrote:Why? Let CM chalk out its own path.

Not sure about your comment on Western classical music. Take for e.g. Handel's Messiah, Bach's Hallelujah, Mozart's requiems, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff's choral music etc etc. They are all steeped in the religious tradition.
I don't deny this. But european classical music has also been continuously evolving. The compositions of modern (living) composers are by and large secular...there is very little that is religious. As for the appearance of religious compositions in the past, it is the usual suspects that are responsible:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/arts/ ... ts/M/Music

Excerpt:

"One reason that less important music is being written for churches is that composers have other things on their minds: among them, making a living. Churches were once the center of life, and centers of wealth and power as well. Composers thrived in their employ in times when public concerts barely existed. The rich commissioned liturgical pieces as their personal upscale rapprochements with God. What money for composers circulates today is largely in secular hands.

The decline in classical music and the decline of the Roman Catholic Church have things in common. Musical audiences dwindle and age; church attendance in Europe has dropped precipitously; and evangelical and fundamentalist movements in once solidly Catholic Latin America are growing exponentially."

I am not sure what you mean by "let CM chalk its own path". As far as I can see, it will be the CM artists (composers, musicians) and also the rasiks who will chalk out that path. I am not an "outsider" trying to impose my views.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vijayagopal wrote:Are we discussing Bhakti or secular themes in Carnatic Music?
Desa Bhakti is also Bhakti.
Bharatiyars compositions are examples.
Balamurali composed mnay items on secular themes.
Can we talk about them?

Kannula Panduga Russia is an item which can roll the ball!
By all means, please discuss them. But one disagreement: "deshbhakti" is not "bhakti" in the religious sense. It should be secular versus relgious, not secular versus "bhakti" (devotion). "Deshbhakti" = "nationalism" is essentially secular. Even "Hindutva-based" nationalism is based primarily upon adherence to the philosophical tenets of Hinduism, not insistence that everyone should start reciting Vedas or sing Ram-Krishna bhajans.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:In this secular vs religious discussion, lyrics seems to be the main conveyor of that theme. Western Classical is predominantly instrumental and so that may not compare well. In current day HM concerts, lyrics do not seem to figure that much to warrant a comparison. In Bhajan based HM where lyrics play a big role, it is by definition bhakthi.

So, if we are looking for examples somewhere as a model for the secular evolution of CM ( the necessity of it etc. ), WC and HM do not seem to be chief contenders.
I am not using WC or HM as a "model" for CM, but only as illustrations. WC has both instrumental and vocal (I consider opera to be as "classical" as the instrumental WC). It is also a mistake to say that lyrics are unimportant in HM. The HM compositions, while appearing to be deceptively simple on the face, have a way of giving full expression to the music and are designed to do so. As mentioned earlier, CM has to "find its own path" but one can definitely learn something from tracking the development of other "classical" music forms.

SR

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