Walk out during Thani????

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 07 Jan 2009, 15:32

One thing that is being repeatedly discussed year after year is this most terrible attitude of some of our fellow listeners, who walk out of the hall, mostly to the canteen, when the thani avarthanam begins. There are also some others who sit in the front row and read magazines or newspapers. Higly indescent these ppl are. Why cant the Sabha guys take this up? Or for that matter, why not some senior artistes? Last but not the least, why not we Rasikas in this forum take it up? Shall we do a march on the beach road, before the next Margazhi, with huge banners and stuff. Can we deliver printouts at each sabha, expressing our disapproval.......well, we NEED to do something. The mridangists, seems to have given up on this. SO SAD. I wish atleast the prominent Sabhas make a ruling at least for the prime slots. NOBODY must be allowed to move in between renditions.

saramati · Post by **saramati** » 07 Jan 2009, 15:50

Quoting coolkapali : "I wish atleast the prominent Sabhas make a ruling at least for the prime slots."

point 1: Walking away during thani avarthanam is a grossly ill-mannered conduct. Whether it is during the prime slot or when the upcoming stars or the juniors are performing.

Point 2: Some people attend kutcheris until the thani starts. They don't realise that they are missing out on the rhythmic music that the mridangam and ghatam duo produce.

Point 3: In some kerala temples (correct me pl, if I am mistaken), especially in Guruvayur temple, anybody wanting to listen to the concerts cannot go late, or cannot walk away before the concert ends. This sort of discipline would do well to prevent the exodus.

Point 4: On the contrary, it would be wonderful if we rasikas ourselves broaden our appreciation of music from vocal to percussion also, so that a time will come, when the audience would in addition to enjoying the vocalist / violinist, they would also eagerly await the thani.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 07 Jan 2009, 16:10

I think it would be a good suggestion to completely restrict audience movement during a piece. If this can be done in tennis matches for instance I see no reason why it should not be done in music/dance which require a similar amount of concentration.

How to force Sabha Secretaries to do this is a diffcult question though...maybe someone can prepare a list of 10 Dos/Don'ts and hand it out before concerts or put it up at prominent sabhas with their permission

saravanan · Post by **saravanan** » 07 Jan 2009, 16:21

It is sad but the new trend is to walk out even when Violin - can I call it violin Thani??is played .I was shocked by mass exodus when Nagai Muralidharan was playing.All went to canteen and came back when singer started his song.This too has to be stopped.

grsastrigal · Post by **grsastrigal** » 07 Jan 2009, 17:15

There is nothing wrong in getting up, in the middle of the concert for a cup of coffee/tiffin. If he/she does not like Nagai's violin, he/she must be going out each and every time he plays. I also went out when Malladi was singing "Kayaroganesham" because I heard it before and I was very hungry too. Once I went out for Nagai too, becuase that time only canteen will be less crowded since every one was glued (or attentive) to Nagai's sankarabhraranam.

Going out for Tani- I have one suggestion-when the main artist starts Neraval or swaram (before tani) he should inform the rasikas to go, whoever wants, and not to disturb the continuation of the concert. Thus, if people who do not like Tani (or try to insult tani), they have to miss portion of neraval or swaram of the main artist too.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Jan 2009, 17:32

I personally like tanis far better than large passages of complicated maths from singers / melodic instruments. Like Nick says, it takes great talent to turn all the mathematics into beautiful music, and that's something the percussionists do much better in general, since they specialise in it. Some vocalists and melodic instrumentalists do this well too, but most would be doing much better singing or playing rhythmically intuitive swarams.

After all, it seems laya wizard Dakshinamurti Pillai said: "Leave drumming to us! Sing from the soul!"

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Jan 2009, 17:38

It is sad but the new trend is to walk out even when Violin - can I call it violin Thani??is played .I was shocked by mass exodus when Nagai Muralidharan was playing.

If this is what happens to Shri Nagai, I dread to imagine what happens to more junior violinists.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 07 Jan 2009, 17:44

GRS, getting up in the middle of a concert is fine - but not while a piece is still on - and this includes violin/tani...even if one doesn't like what is being played, one should be respectful - to the artistes as well as to others who are listening, some of whom may not feel the same way about the music. A lot of people (or even 1-2) leaving at the same time can create a lot of disturbance and this is often the case when the violin/tani starts.

Perhaps the artistes can do their bit by announcing that a main/sub-main is about to start so that those who needs to answer call of nature/stomach can leave. Perhaps this pause can also be used by the musician to educate the listener about the piece as was discussed in another thread....

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 07 Jan 2009, 19:26

I think we should try to figure out what the real problem is, and then try to solve it. If rasikas are leaving because they can't bear to listen to the thani, nothing will help. But if they are leaving because they *must* use the bathroom and this is the "least desirable" part of the concert, perhaps having a 15 minute interval before the main piece may help. If they're leaving to visit the canteen, perhaps closing the canteen once the concert starts should be considered.

- Sreenadh

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jan 2009, 20:21

There are all sorts of reasons why a person should have to leave a concert.

For the first time ever (and I would not mind it being the last), I left a concert recently to take a phone call I had to respond to. My phone was, of course, on silent, and I was near the door. Even that call would have had to wait if I had been sitting mid row in a large hall.

It is a matter of manners.

Nobody can force a person to like something they do not like, and it would take more than a little offered 'education' to persuade those old men, who have been escaping the thani for decades, that it, and the lighter pieces that follow, might hold something for them. You can see the look in their eyes; a look I think I might get if I were to offer them a beef sandwich...

So let them sit in the back row, or at least by the door. If their departure disturbs no-one, let them depart --- otherwise, let them not disturb the attention and peace of those who wish to continue to listen and enjoy.

Age plays a part in this; the youngsters, it seems to me, are a minority of this particular exodus, though they may exhibit some of the other items on my list of bad concert behaviour.

A list of dos and donts would simply add to the litter on the floor.

By the way... I feel the same about the mangalam exodus... for goodness sake, will two or three more minutes of sitting there hurt anybody?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jan 2009, 22:23

MangaLam exit is to avoid mass exodus--so those who practise it will argue! It shows total disregard for the finale which takes but a minute to sing in a concert one sits through until then! Truly, I relish it when more than a verse of mangaLam is sung. It is worse when vAzhiya Sentamizh is sung in place of mangaLam and instead of standing up for the anthem one makes a bee line to the exit!
Yes, we have spoken about this time and again and we do know that we have to make our own rules to behave in a way so as to not hurt the sensibilities of the artistes or the audience. If you need to leave or talk, do it between the pauses--not when the performer is in the middle of singing or playing. Since tani is a sensitive issue (specially for the percussionists), it is better to time your exit ahead of time or after the tani.

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 07 Jan 2009, 22:42

nick H wrote:It is a matter of manners.

true...

man-err....s.....

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Jan 2009, 23:20

Nick wrote:For the first time ever (and I would not mind it being the last), I left a concert recently to take a phone call I had to respond to. My phone was, of course, on silent, and I was near the door. Even that call would have had to wait if I had been sitting mid row in a large hall.

Wasn't it the TNK trio concert where they played a kIravANi RTP?

ShrutiLaya wrote:having a 15 minute interval before the main piece may help.

This is something I'd been thinking of as a good idea for another reason. The artists can relax themselves a bit, and plan some last minute things too (maybe even revise lyrics for thukkadas!)

If we have breaks for movies, why not for Carnatic concerts?

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 07 Jan 2009, 23:39

i do generally agree that people should avoid movement in the auditorium during a piece. It might be ok to move silently, in between pieces.

I personally prefer reaching the hall and settling down much before the curtains are raised and stay till the mangaLam is finished. However, on exceptional occasions one is forced to move in between a concert to attend to important phone calls (the mobile being a big hazard which you cant live without!) and sometimes even calls of the nature which are unavoidable.

Restriction of movement of people inside the auditorium in the middle of a piece is totally avoidable. Even if you cannot stand the musician and wish to kick yourself for coming to the concert, it is but etiquette and decency to atleast wait till the end of the particular piece to walk out silently.

I however am not for having strong restrictions on entry and exit in the concert and having rules which say you can enter late or leave early. Given today's city traffic and work related issues, one gets delayed and comes to the concert atleast hear it in parts. and leaving early also should be excused as people might have to get back home or have other pressing issues to attend to and have to leave urgently. With people travelling long distances to catch good concerts, leaving early should be understood the right way, however one should always avoid leaving in the middle of a piece or make noise.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 07 Jan 2009, 23:43

Erode sir - good one!

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 07 Jan 2009, 23:46

ShrutiLaya wrote:perhaps having a 15 minute interval before the main piece may help.

i have seen this happen in 4 hour concerts. however, at times it spoils the mood of the concert.

and when you look at concerts, during the season, the seniors get hardly a couple of hours and half, and youngsters most of the time sing for just about an hour and a break in the middle means lesser time for the concert, which is bad.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 08 Jan 2009, 00:17

One solution is to build "Futuristic auditoria' - perhaps a levelled auditorium and equip each seat with a "Beam Me down scottie" button that serves like an elevator sending them one level down. And they get back into the elevator and enter the auditorium right on to where they were. You can even construct seats that resemble lotuses Would Work well if things are oiled well and as long as rasikas and musician don't get distracted by audience magically manifesting in place Brahma-like!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jan 2009, 01:07

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 Jan 2009, 02:17

interesting discussion...although not sure if we can come up with a consensus on how to tackle this menace...
Another related issue I have encountered is those rasikas who get so involved in the song that they start to sing themselves! And sometimes this is quite loud, enough to warrant a side kutcheri itself!
How to stop this? Gag them?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 08 Jan 2009, 07:02

rbharath wrote:i have seen this happen in 4 hour concerts. however, at times it spoils the mood of the concert.

and when you look at concerts, during the season, the seniors get hardly a couple of hours and half, and youngsters most of the time sing for just about an hour and a break in the middle means lesser time for the concert, which is bad.

Well, for an hour-long concert, a break is unnecessary.

About spoling the mood of the concert ... I think maybe it can be left to the musicians whether they want a break, because they are the ones most intensely involved in the music.

But I find that sometimes I'm not able to concentrate on the music for too long. I end up just staying in my seat without listening ... and when at the end of this "break" I find the musician is on their peak, I feel very harrassed at what I've missed. Some musicians are very unpredictable ... and it's mostly they who don't give brief pauses here and there for the audiences to digest what they've dished out.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Jan 2009, 07:24

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 08 Jan 2009, 11:02

I am glad to see so many positve responses to this issue. Let me tell you one thing, Carnatic music is best delivered when the musician loses himself in his music. I dont see that happening with this sort of unruly behaviour. As someone said, it is not just during the thani, which is bad enough, that ppl make an exit. I hope artistes dare to tell ppl that, either they respect the art, or they never turn up, or worst case trhe performance will be abandoned. IT IS TIME PPL, that somebody does it. I hope stars like Sanjay and TMK think about this seriously. And our own, Vidyarthi Sir, can spread awareness amongst the rasikas, and use his influence to get Sabhas involved in this revolution, which i beleive is a do or die situation.

Mobile Phones: I wish they are not allowed to be brought in at all, though for ppl like me, they have been extremely useful to note down song lists as also to enquire about a rare piece through SMS.

Recently, i was told that for a performance at BGS, the next one was by Vishaka Hari. As the concert was happening, a huge band of ppl walked in creating utter chaos and confusion. And somebody as senior as TVG was playing the Thani. My informant told me that it turned into a wedding reception envioronment. I am at a LOSS, Totally.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jan 2009, 11:38

Cool, I think you are absolutely right. Classical music is something we can can have in Chennai like most cities in the world have window shopping. For most of the year it is available and free! Maybe there are Mylapore wives that chase their annoying husbands out to the concerts, like a British wife might chase hers to the pub so that she can get some peace in the house*

My reflection is that the difference in behaviour between a Chennai audience and a London audience has a lot to do with the fact that the London rasika might have had to wait a month since his last concert, and would have had to pay to get in too.

But solving the problem by cutting the concerts? That is probably not something that any of us would do, even if we had the power.

Srikant, the concerts that hold my attention from beginning to end are in a definite minority, and they are the ones that I call the great concerts. Usually, for me, there is some degree of fading in and out. Not every concert is brilliant from start to finish, and, of course, not every day do I have exactly the right frame of mind, ability to concentrate, leave preoccupations at the door, etc.

Perhaps a real rasika comes prepared with the same abilities of concentration that the musicians bring to the stage. It is one of the simple things that amazes me about the performers: the violinist, for instance, cannot put down his instrument because he might not like this song very much, doesn't know it well, might as well do some SMSing and wait for the next piece, which might be better...

I find this is worse during the season (and I, unlike many of you people, seldom attend more than one concert a day) --- a concert that might, if it had been the only one I saw in a week, have delighted me, fails to get my attention at all. Too much rich food! An outing to a five-star restaurant is something special; when we stay in hotel, and eat it every day, it becomes common-place, and may even lead to indegestion.

coolkapali, yes, it is another one for the list: the crowds who disturb a concert as they arrive for the next concert. This really should not be allowed by the organisers, especially if that next concert is a crowd puller.

Queueing up outside, though, is something unlikely to appeal (or even occur) to most Chennai-ites.

*to be fair, I am sure there are the husbands who send their women folk out too.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jan 2009, 12:16

Nick,
Just as the wife in some cases waits for the sot to return home, with a poised rolling pin by the door!

Yes, and cell phones! It used to be crying babies (not in a western concert!)--sitting by a door and making a quick exit was no problem. Since I find that the cell phones here in India are taking the place of some life-saving device implanted in one's body, I hear all kinds of music (?) emanating around me in every concert I go to.
As for those who sing along: a polite (?) stare or two. If that fails, say 'let me listen to 'that' music'--pointing to the stage. Or, move away from your seat, if possible. Same applies to the loud-voiced gabbers. Talking between songs is okay;passing notes too.
As for loud tAlam keepers? Again, a stare, particularly at the offending hand. By the way, the 'stare' remedy starts with a polite smile, and if it does not work, one without a smile, then a real stare, shaking of your head and sighing, and then a quick succsession of stares. They may then move away to avoid 'you'!

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 08 Jan 2009, 12:58

Few of experiences.

Oflate I find people are willing to pay for CM concerts. Say like Rs 50/- per concert. Academy had good paid audience for even less glamourous artists like Santhanagopalan/Gayatri V'Raghvan/Malladi Brothers. The refurbished MA seats, legroom & AC are excellent. I hope they would change the Dias (I sat on the dias for Ranjani & Gayatri); there are nails & tore my kurtha. Almost all other venues are substandard. NG can be upgraded. I am sure people will pay for CM progs if held in good ambience. Why not in Sathyam Cinema.

Regarding audience behaviour. MA should set the standards. Get tough on people using cell phones. Volunteers should remind everyone as they enter the hall to switch off the mobile & not to use it. Otherwise seize the mobile. Nor anyone should be permitted to walk in or out when the artist is performing. No harm if people walkout before thani starts but not when palying thaniavartanam (including VIPs entering from the front). Display a glowsign for maintaing strict silence. Even keeping the beats should be without causing disturbance to others. Academy should announce the do's & don't in the Souvenier & Ad. As long as they palce reasonable demands & the volunteers are polite there should not any problem in implementing. The above should apply for morning & free slots.

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:01

Few dreams.

MA should demolish the auditoriam & build a world class one with enough Car parking space,food court & nice shops (like Kalpa druma ...). (suggest members experience Kalpadruma's ambience near MA) No big deal for MA under Murali says one insider. Chennai rasikas deserve one for CM. What a lovely city for CM lovers. Boom or recession season goes on & on. Also upgrade NGS to the extend possible. Demolish MFA. Worst ambience. KGS & Pettachi auditoriam are OK but can do more. All others are useless.

MA should open the membership for those below 50 years including NRIs. I see age profile of the audience coming down in the recent times.Implement all the suggestion for better audience behaviour.

I am not surprised at the low interest audience have for accompanists. Do we have anyone of the stature of Lalgudi/TNK/MSG or a Mani Iyer/Palani/Raghu/Sivaraman in the circuit of present day stars. Yes there are competent violonist who has the potential. Varadarajan, Charumati Raghuraman, Akkarai to name a few. In mridangam the scene is bad. Anand is an exception. Manoj & Vaidyanathan are competent. But they are not the preferred ones by Krishnas, Sanjays, Ranjanis, Sowmyas, Sudhas etc. They prefer those who just keep following them like a shadow without making there presence felt. They don't like to be challenged. This was not the attitude of Ariyaakudi / Semmangudi / Alathur/GNB & the next generation of KVNs/DKJs/MDRs/Nedunuris. MS had VVS & TK Murthy highly competent accompanists. DKP sang with Tiruparkadal(clean bowing) & Mani Iyer. MLV had Kanyakumari a very talented violonist. It is bad time for talented accompanist. Will MA present Sudha or Ranjani & Gayatri with Varadharajan & Anand or TMK with Akkarai & Anand?. TMK may invest his energy on taking up such challanges than singing Viriboni before RTP which served no purpose & is no big deal.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:04

No harm if people walkout before thani starts but not when palying thaniavartanam

In theory, perhaps. In practice there is often no appreciable gap between swara and thani, certainly not one long enough to push aside all the knees and trample all the feet until the aisle is reached.

Even if there is, it will not satisfy those who complain that the exit shows a lack of respect.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:09

I have had it with all these mridangam vidwans and "kadangarap pavis" who run away with an extended tani avarthanam on the basis that the main artist is not going to tell them to stop.

I have also had it with main artists who have no compunction about showing up 35 minutes late for no reason except to lord it over the audience.

My response to these insensitive egomaniacs is that I WILL walk out on them.

If they want respect from me, from now onwards, they can EARN it with courteous behavior.

Courtesy begets courtesy. Rudeness will beget rudeness magnified a thousand times.

Thi is precisely why I started a thread "Egomaniacs of the Season". Of course, all of you namby-pamby hand-wringers thought it was a bad idea.

(Signed) Harimau, a kick-ass man in a kiss-ass world.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:33

harimau wrote:I have had it with all these mridangam vidwans and "kadangarap pavis" who run away with an extended tani avarthanam on the basis that the main artist is not going to tell them to stop.

I have also had it with main artists who have no compunction about showing up 35 minutes late for no reason except to lord it over the audience.

My response to these insensitive egomaniacs is that I WILL walk out on them.

If they want respect from me, from now onwards, they can EARN it with courteous behavior.

Courtesy begets courtesy. Rudeness will beget rudeness magnified a thousand times.

Thi is precisely why I started a thread "Egomaniacs of the Season". Of course, all of you namby-pamby hand-wringers thought it was a bad idea.

(Signed) Harimau, a kick-ass man in a kiss-ass world.

Geez, we got it already, harimau. Back to your padded cell now...

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:53

Nick

I would suggest Mridangist waiting for a few minutes as Trichy Sankran did once at MA. Most of the present day mridangist wouldn't mind because they hardly participate. Have you heard Arun prakash the most popular amongs top ranking lady artists & Sanjay.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 08 Jan 2009, 14:55

KNV your name contains another name. A name full of shruthi and soukhyam.(KVN ie). Why this aggressiveness. Does not befit ur name.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Jan 2009, 15:15

Sankaran didn't "wait" - he was fuming and red...he was trying to tell those who were leaving what he thought of the exodus...and I absolutely do not agree that it is OK to leave before the tani starts - it is a part of the main piece

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 08 Jan 2009, 15:28

Coolkapali & Vijay

Cool. I am not aggressive. (Vijay is right about sankaran). I am sick of this soft & unassuming accompaniment. Having heard concerts with Lalgudi/TNK/MSG/Raghu/Sivraman accompany & make it a wonderful team show, I am unable to digest the present. Each one wanted to give their best. There were ego clashes. But overall they demonstarted what concert singing in Ariyakudi format is all about & took the listeners to a higher palne.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jan 2009, 15:54

While I frequented the MA earlier during my stay in Chennai, attending some very nice concerts during the day and a few evening ones paying a high price, my karma with the place which has the best sound system and such rich history went all awry. My very first concert there was that of AKC which was a thrilling experience. However, as days went by, I was getting increasingly irritated by the behavior of some of those who work there, and of my own intolerance at all this! While I respect the organization's concern for security, I was shocked when a volunteer thrust his hand into my handbag, materializing from my side and without a word. It could have been a pickpocket, the way it happened in a split second. 'idennappA?' 'security check'.'couldn't you ask me to open my bag?' 'grunt grunt'. I have found the traffic organizers helpful at the gate, but (my karma again?) the way a couple of men shouted at our polite driver for not turning the right way (they could have guided him with simple words like 'this way, turn here'). There was a barrage of rude words and even when I asked them to be civil, they ignored me and continued in the same manner. At the canteen (not the best food anyway) I was reprimanded for spilling a little coffee which was too hot to handle), even though I apologized for the mishap.
At Suryaprakash's concert, since a popular diva was singing in the next slot, I did not stay for the last number, fearing mobs at the gate. Even though the mad rush hadn't begun, as I was exiting, a volunteer stopped me and asked in a menacing tone- 'engE pORInga?' for no reason at all. That narrow corridor and the queing up for a seat you cannot reserve ahead of time is a challenge every year, but never have I heard anyone shout at me at the Academy before. Perhaps I fitted the description of some security threat of a woman. Who knows?
But happily, with other sabhas, as they see us year after year, we hear pleasantries from the organizers: How are you? Good to see you! Will give you the best seats possible, etc. You can get tickets for reserved seats at these venues in the morning. Parthasarathy Sabha and Kala Rasana are my favorites when it comes to civility. Indian Fine Arts and NGS too, to an extent. Petachi is one of my favorite places in many ways--comfort, ample parking, ambience. No fuss here. I come across courtesy in many other venues where I may not even attend evening (ticketed) performances...

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 08 Jan 2009, 18:54

Entry Free ....

Exit During Thani -- Fee ----> Collect Rs.10 or 20 or whatever before the end of Thani

Entry Free - Exit Fees ...

How is this idea ?

JB

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jan 2009, 19:03

It's good to know that Harimau, being a kick-ass man in a kiss-ass world, believing in respect being earned, and politeness being repaid with politeness, will understand perfectly that, if he tramples my feet at any point in a concert, I will be a kick-ankle guy in a kick-ankle world!

(Really, what preposterous poppycock!)

Music · Post by **Music** » 08 Jan 2009, 20:29

People walk out during thani for the following reasons:
1. We don't have any specific code of conduct to be followed while attending a concert.
2. Audience do have other commitments that could interrupt them during a concert.
3. Not many people understand a thani to appreciate it enough. If they did, they would automatically prioritize a Thani over their phone call/other commitment.

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 08 Jan 2009, 20:40

My sincere apologies for naming Arunprakash. A close friend of mine who knows Arun is very upset with my utterances. I understand Arun knows a lot of Kanakku but refrains from exhibiting in concerts as he believes in giving maximum importance to the main artist. I recall J.Vaidyanathan mentioning about the poor remuneration given to accompaniments. I do not know about MA payment structure. It will be nice if MA adopts AIR payment structure which does not differentiate between main artist & accompanists. It goes by gradation which is fair. For instance there is no differenciation between Nedunuri & Raghu or MSG in payment. Is it fair to differentiate say Sudha, RK Sriramkumar & J.Vaidyanathan. RK & JV are as seasoned as other popular artists. Why not MA grade artists like the way Cricketers are graded. This will lift their self esteem & we will see a new generation of MSG,TNK, Lalgudi,Sivaraman,Raghu.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:03

Music wrote:People walk out during thani for the following reasons:
1. We don't have any specific code of conduct to be followed while attending a concert.

Good manners

2. Audience do have other commitments that could interrupt them during a concert.

Good manners. Funny how those commitments tend to occur at the start of the thani, and how they suddenly don't have three more minutes for mangalam

3. Not many people understand a thani to appreciate it enough. If they did, they would automatically prioritize a Thani over their phone call/other commitment.

Good manners: they should not spoil the enjoyment of others.

This reason, oft-quoted, really doesn't stand up, because if they do not understand at least some of the calculations in the thani, then they won't understand the calculations in swara kalpana, and they don't walk out just as that starts.

Anyway, calculations, shmalculations --- if a thani isn't good to sit through without understanding the maths, then perhaps it does deserve to be walked out of!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:21

I think Nick has hit the nail on the head - it is not only one's own enjoyment (or otherwise) that is relevant - there has to be a degree of sensitivity to fellow rasika's and a certain respect for decorum. Even if one does not like/appreciate the tani surely one can hold one's horses for 10 minutes.

I like Balaji sir's idea! KNS thanks for retracting Arunprakash's name - your friend has rightly observed that he has a tremendous grasp of kanakkus

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:21

Sorry that should be KNV in the post above

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:54

One cannot (and should not) stop an audience member from walking out at any time, but they can be urged to leave between numbers; and they certainly can be denied re-entry.

Leave if you must, but you are not going back in.

iamkirinlemon · Post by **iamkirinlemon** » 09 Jan 2009, 02:01

KNV wrote:Few dreams.
I am not surprised at the low interest audience have for accompanists. Do we have anyone of the stature of Lalgudi/TNK/MSG or a Mani Iyer/Palani/Raghu/Sivaraman in the circuit of present day stars. Yes there are competent violonist who has the potential. Varadarajan, Charumati Raghuraman, Akkarai to name a few. In mridangam the scene is bad. Anand is an exception. Manoj & Vaidyanathan are competent. But they are not the preferred ones by Krishnas, Sanjays, Ranjanis, Sowmyas, Sudhas etc. They prefer those who just keep following them like a shadow without making there presence felt. They don't like to be challenged. This was not the attitude of Ariyaakudi / Semmangudi / Alathur/GNB & the next generation of KVNs/DKJs/MDRs/Nedunuris. MS had VVS & TK Murthy highly competent accompanists. DKP sang with Tiruparkadal(clean bowing) & Mani Iyer. MLV had Kanyakumari a very talented violonist. It is bad time for talented accompanist. Will MA present Sudha or Ranjani & Gayatri with Varadharajan & Anand or TMK with Akkarai & Anand?. TMK may invest his energy on taking up such challanges than singing Viriboni before RTP which served no purpose & is no big deal.

This is an interesting post. I don't agree that the mridangam scene is as bad as KNV believes (for example, I think Patri Satishkumar's award from MA this year was very well deserved). However, I do agree that we need to see more concerts where ALL the artists on stage challenge each other. Right now, we satisfy ourselves by occasionally seeing good back and forth between main artist / violin, or mridangam and upapakkavadyam in the tani. There needs to be more of artists challenging each other on stage. It really brings our music to life.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 09 Jan 2009, 02:46

Madras music audience is completely spoilt, esp around season time. Concerts that people elsewhere (esp outside India) pay good money to attend, are free during the season - hence many people don't value these concerts. Walk-in any time, walk-out any time, becomes the mode of behavior for them.
Is it any surprise?

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 09 Jan 2009, 08:24

The fault for this sort of outlandish behaviour (walk out during thani) lies squarely on the walkers as well as the main artist. Irrespective of the mridangist concerned, the thani is almost the penultimate piece in a concert. The main artists hog the microphone shamelessely until people are about to collapse! I attended a "thani" by Zakkir Hussain and the doors were shut once the program started. No one was allowed to enter or exit once the thani started. Carnatic musicians compare themselves with Hindusthani musicians only when payment is talked about. They have a lot to learn from their North Indian counter parts in terms of discipline and manners. In my view, any action can be taken only by the mridangists. They, especially the senior ones, must lead the way by insisting that thani should be in the first half of the concert. It need not be even after a "main" piece since thani is a piece by itself. But then the senior mridangists are also interested in only the payment check and not in preserving the greatness of their art.

KNV · Post by **KNV** » 09 Jan 2009, 10:55

iamkirinlemon

The issue is not Patri or Anand or Arun. First we must recognise the huge role played by competent sidemen in a concert. The young talents must be nurtured by making them accompany the best. See the fate of the generation after Raghu & Sivaraman. Easwaran,Prasad, Narendran to name a few are all very competent. But they faded. They got a raw deal. They become AIR artists. They are no more interested in begging all & sundry for concerts. They get paid poorly when they accompany even seniors like TNS or TVS. They are A grade artists in AIR. Take Music reviews. They get hardly any coverage. If you listen to Raghu or Sivaraman or Sankaran you will see how much they contribute to embellishing a song. They way they fill the gaps in songs (listen to them accompanying for big compositions like Balagopala or Sri Rajagopala etc), the way they maintain the Kalapramanam (tempo), their playing for end pieces ( I don't like to use the word tukkadas), their anticipation etc. The main artist gave them the freedom to exhibit their skills. Yet another sickening thing I find with the current crop of percussionists is their palying virtualy a noisy mini tani after every song. They can't end with the singer which requires anticipation. There is a beauty in ending with a tuneful thirmanam along with the singer. Lastly this year I saw two leading percussionists in MA playing for tanam. This practic is there only in Navaratri Mandabam. This is a huge problem for the singer. It curbs thier scope in Tanam singing. I wish this practice is not encouraged by the singer.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 09 Jan 2009, 11:28

KNV --- > Fading of an artiste is not their own choice i think. When UKS sir is getting paid for what he demands or commands why not pay for others like Eswaran sir or Narendran sir or KVP sir though i am not trying to equate their merits or anysuch things here. I am taking your own words of competence. It is not the artiste's choice. It is the sabha's choice to pay them less and hence becomes the artiste's choice to leave it or take it. It shows their GOWRAVAM than reflects on their fading away etc etc. And i think Easwaran Sir is not fading away. He is in the thick of performance. Narendran sir is playing top notch concerts and the same can be said for KV Prasad also.

If you feel them competent why not go and tell the sabha secretaries to pay them hefty purse instead of taking a heavy toll on artistes and lamenting about them on fading away citing a few arguments like noisy accompaniment etc etc ?

If anyone has the guts go and tell the sabha secretaries who collect huge sponsorships and pay the artistes pittance ? If any one has guts go and tell the sabha secretaries to fade out unnecessary, unwanted, below-par concerts and concentrate on good quality artistes and arts. If any one has guts go and tell the sabha secretaries from asking artistes Money for giving a slot or asking artistes for getting sponsorships ?

Who wants such mediocre concerts ?

JB

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 09 Jan 2009, 11:34

Ha, I really like Balaji sir's idea of imposing a monetary penalty on people with bad manners! But what about old people who need to go to the toilet, etc? There will be no amount of fuss. Maybe the less effective but more pragmatic solution is, as someone else suggested, is to have a 15 min recess before the piece in which thani will be played. 15 min recess because it's approximately the time of a regular thani, so hopefully audience returning after the interval will ask if it's really worth it to skip out again after waiting 15 min for the concert to recommence! Or we could just lock the doors and install toilets within the confines of the auditorium.

saramati · Post by **saramati** » 09 Jan 2009, 12:14

i think it is a good idea to have only paid concerts. that will restrict the entry only to the rasikas who are really interested in the nuances of this fine art. In temples, where we do have free concerts, the organisers could be a little strict in entry and exit, and exodus half way throught the concerts. When we go to a movie, half way throught the way we are not reminded of our pre-occupations or pressing domestic or official priorities. We go to the movie only after all the other priorities are taken care of, or only after ensuring that they can wait for the 3-4 hours. Similarly we attend a concert not by force but only by voluntary willingness. Even at the time of entering the concert, we are aware of all our priorities. They do not crop up suddenly, or only at the time of thani. I guess decorum, if not voluntary practiced, better to politely and mildly emphasised from outside.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2009, 12:54

The point about accompaniment is that it should be appropriate. If it is not appropriate, it is bad, regardless of any technical brilliance that might be present.

There are songs and moments where it is perfectly appropriate to play an extended thiermanum at the end --- and I have also been to concerts where the mridangist seems to treat the ending of every song as his turn to get in a two minute solo. Simply, this is bad, and should not be treated mercifully by audience or reviewers.

Even those of us who love mridangam must admit the faults too!