Walk out during Thani????

[arasi]

Suji,
Nice to 'hear' from you!

[harimau]

Why blame the sound technician when the culprit is the musician on stage demanding that the volume be raised?

A recent concert of T M Krishna at P S High School for Ramana Kendra had such high levels of volume that after the first song or so, there were enough protests by the audience. The organizer had to ask if the volume was too loud and, when the answer was yes, had it reduced a teeny bit. Sitting in the middle in the 9th row, I couldn't walk out of the program itself, let alone during the Tani.

Contrast that with the R K Srikantan concert two days back in Sastri Hall. Sitting directly in front of the mridangam artist (Umayalpuram Sivaraman), in the second row, I felt no discomfort with the sound levels.

Remember that Sastri Hall is a closed auditorium and P S High School has an open one.

Nope, don't blame the sound technician!

[bilahari]

Out of curiosity, why is it that so many musicians ask to have the volume raised? Is it because they cannot hear themselves on stage? If so, why not?

[arasi]

bilahari,
Before going into that, we need a clear definition of the term 'feed back'. Artistes mention it, there IS such a term, but in what sense is it used by technicians and performers? How does this vary from auditorium to auditorium, one sound system to the other, country to country? I have heard artistes exclaim ' I have no feed back!'. I vaguely remember this being discussed a while ago.
Once it is established that they are all thinking about sound in the same way, communicating their needs in a manner understood by the sound men might improve things. After all, this is in the interest of all.

[cameo]

a lil fun:

just before the starting of a concert by Dr.KJY recently,
one of the samajam president/pm ,whomsoever ,took the mike and announced.. "ladies and gentlemen.. please dont MOVE once the concert starts.It might cause a disturbance to Shri KJY. So please sit idle"
and the next was KJY over the mike... "Dont listen to the president.. hello samajam president,how can people sit for 3-4 hours without moving a bit...."

ignore....!!!

[Nick H]

Why blame the sound technician when the culprit is the musician on stage demanding that the volume be raised?

Because if the right equipment was available and he had done his job properly, the musician on stage would not need to ask, demand, or whatever.

Because the organisers and the sound technician are in charge of the sound system, not the musicians. This, I grant you, is something that not many musicians realise!

I have this complaint against musicians: some of them have spent decades sitting in front of a microphone, and yet they fail completely to understand the basics of using it, and some even badly misuse it.

Musicians are far from perfect in this respect, whether it be vocalist or mridangist. The rest of the crew on stage, even the violinist, seem often to be a little to meek to say anything.

Out of curiosity, why is it that so many musicians ask to have the volume raised? Is it because they cannot hear themselves on stage? If so, why not?

It is indeed, often the case, that the musicians can not hear themselves, and/or cannot hear each other. Why stages have this black-hole effect on sound I really don't know; I'm sure an expert on acoustics could explain, but I probably wouldn't understand as it quickly becomes a rather mathematical subject.

I have long suspected that the dias is habitually set far too far back on the stage. I would dispense with the curtains, and bring the musicians right to the edge of the stage. Of course, there are many halls that do not have a prescenium arch stage (invented by the Greeks, a couple of millenia before anyone thought of the amplifier, I think?) so it is just part of my theories,and cannot be the whole story.

Arasi: 'feedbak' in that context is monitor speakers, placed so each musician can hear themselves and their colleagues. It varied from concert to concert, and when ill-used can result in the screaming 'feedback' (same word, different context) caused by sound looping from mic to speaker to mic.

There is a whole art and science to sound engineering. Just as we non-musician audience benefit from learning even a little about music, I think we benefit also from knowing a little of the technology of the stage, even if only to better direct our criticism. It is worth a little research.

Cameo: Poor Mr President, who was trying to do his bit for audience behaviour, but nice to hear that KJY took a more practical and humble view

[bilahari]

Thanks for the info, Nick. And cameo, yes, the poor president did mean well!

[ragam-talam]

Perhaps it would help if musicians provided clear instructions to the organizers, as TMK does below:
http://www.tmkrishna.com/images/stage-requirement.jpg

[ragam-talam]

The monitor speaker (sometimes referred to as 'feedback') is so important for the musician on stage. It provides the singer a good feel for how the music sounds to the audience.

[rajumds]

A better option will be to have a separate amplifier for feed back. The sound level in the hall should be adjustable independent of the feedback speakers

[Nick H]

The monitor speakers are usually taken from a separate output on the mixing board, and I guess that, in that case, the signals pass through a different amplifier.

The monitor output from the board, though, unless the equipment is very expensive, has much less control and adjustment compared to the main speakers. I do recall one event, where I was involved, where the violinist was upset that that more treble could not be given on the monitor. He did not understand that, whereas the tonal graduation to the house speakers could be adjusted for at least three ranges, the monitor output was very restricted.

[mahesu]

I agree with Nick......it is the inexperienced sound engineers with less gnyanam of a concert balance creating this trouble. Actually it is a vicious circle. There are two types of mridangam artist who play mridangam strongly - A tala oriented mridangist who continuously beats the mridangam , the other who is music oriented and knows when to play strong and when to keep silence. Unfortunately this gnyana is not available to many especially the sound engineers. Frightened by the constant beaters, they reduce volume for the artists who play with gnyana also. These second type of artists, when left with low volume, become less effective due to the style of their playing. This creates an impression that the constant beater is a better artist than the gnyana based one. So nowadays these artists start asking for more volume. The common rasika who cannot differenciate between these two, blames whoever asks for more volume. Requesting our friends to first differenciate between these two types of artists and then the see the reason behind, for asking more volume.

[harimau]

When you want to compare equipment (speakers, amplifiers, etc.) you do an A-B test. In the case of speakers, one pair of stereo speakers would be connected to Switch A and the second pair to be compared the first pair would be connected to Switch B. All other equipment including the music CD (or LP) to be played would remain the same so you can compare the speakers by switching from pair A to pair B.

A very similar A-B test happened at PS High School. Suryaprakash was performing for the Raga Tarangini Foundation on Jan 21. The mridangist was Srimushnam Raja Rao, another mridangist known for demanding loud volume for the mridangam (and listed by me as one of those whom I would want to shun). The amplifier, the mixer and the sound technician were the same as for the T M Krishna concert at the same venue on Jan 13. Presumably the mics were the same too.

I was seated in the same 9th row except that I was about 5 seats to the right compared to my seat in the T M Krishna concert.

Thus, one would have to agree that almost all variables were constrained to remain the same with the exception of the performers on the stage.

While the overall volume of the concert was a tad higher than my liking, it was not painfully loud the way it was with the T M Krishna concert. Nor did Raja Rao continually ask for increased volume for the mridangam. In fact, the only person who asked for better feedback was Suryaprakash after about three items or so had been rendered.

After that experience, can any of you guys still absolve the performers of guilt for the overall loudness and blame it on the audio technician?

[arasi]

Harimau,
Thanks for making me feel better. The sound charade is always distracting and is a devil to figure out. I can say this without any hesitation that while some 'donno what it is, this switch board and stuff' men tamper with our listening, some on the performing stage do this too. I can say that in the recent years, but for the tambUra man, many performers tend to gesture or ask for 'more', and it can go on, their taking turns to distract us well into the first few songs. A stupid question perhaps, but is it at all possible to set the volume to a reasonable level on mikes and no more? Mrudanga vidvAns bother me most. Even the best among them seem to have fallen victim to this habit.

[Nick H]

... ... ...After that experience, can any of you guys still absolve the performers of guilt for the overall loudness and blame it on the audio technician?

Very good points, very well made, and I take your point.

There have been some very good posts from some of the American event organisers, possibly even as far back as rec.music.indian.classical days, I do not know if they have been repeated on this forum.

In a nutshell, the major feature is that they do not allow the artists to interfere in the level settings: requests from the stage are applied to the stage monitors only. Front-of-house sound is judged from the front of the house, and never from the stage.

It is a can of worms, this whole sound-system business. I do not say that egos never come into play, but the difficulties from the musicians' standpoint have to be understood too.

Overall, and I'm sure that Harimau would join me in this... I have a conviction that the sound should be adjusted for the comfort and convenience of the audience above all. We are the ones that have paid to be there!

I still say that lack of professionalism on the part of the organisers and their sound team plays a major part, but this may well be because they are pandering to the performers when they should be looking after the audience.

[coolkarni]

..

[mahesu]

Another suggestion would be to spend a 2 / 3 minute session before every concert for balancing. Once it is WELL balanced, the engineer neither voluntarily nor from requests, should be allowed to change the levels. This would help a lot, both the performer and the listener. I have seen stalwarts like Zakir hussain spending quite an effort for balancing.

[Nick H]

Fully agree with harimau.
With my limited experience I have recognised that I get into major volume setting decisions whenever I Stray away from Kannan Audio Systems, W Mambalam.

Such a fine bunch of technicians, they are.

With reference to the concerts you have organised, I should say that the emphasis is on re-inforcement not on amplification. When listening to voice and acoustic instruments, wherever in the world, all the sound system should do is make us able to hear an instrument that might not otherwise fill the space: we should feel that we are listening directly to the voice/instrument. If it seems loud, or other than the fingers and voice could naturally produce, which is the unfortunate norm, then the system design, set-up and use has fundamentally failed. Your technicians seem to appreciate this

There is another issue.Vocalists who are more dependent on the mike , have a problem if their face keeps moving away from the Mike tip , Sideways or even up and down.The uneven volume of Voice delivery makes it difficult for the sound technician to set the master level.

This is exactly my point about those who might have performed for decades, but have no idea about a fundamental tool of their trade. The particular artist's style has to be taken account of, though, of course. A musician who wishes a lot of contact with his colleagues on either side should be facilitated, not restrained, by the system setup.

A way around this is perhaps the use of the mike attached to the head (like the ear pieces, coming down the chin).
I recently saw this being employed in a Vasudha Keshav Concert.
Somehow felt this should solve most of the problems.

Less visually intrusive, and possibly more comfortable to the wearer, is the microphone clipped to the chest, as is seen (if not hidden under a layer of cloth) in many studio TV programs. This is what I would favour, and I have read that some of those foreign organisers I mentioned have used this --- but they find objections from artists, because the artists just don't feel right without a mic stand, they feel too exposed, and from others (the ones who think they can manipulate the microphone, the fiddlers, (oh dear)) that it robs them of their percieved ability to influence their own volume. Of course, that is the whole aim and point!

BTW During the recent visit to Shanmukhanada Sabha , I learnt that they had "Retired" their Sound systems and installed a new one at the cost of 1.3 Crores.
When I asked what was wrong with the old system , they simply replied that they had found it necessary to retire a system every 7 years or so.And that a senior committe member is specifically responsible for this aspect alone.
Goes to show that decisions on these issues were accorded the highest importance.

Goodness! One should take note and pop along to pick up some bargains in discarded kit! I have no idea what the expected life is. I would have thought that a good microphone should last forever, and that the same applies to speakers, and that technology in these areas has not markedly improved, so as to make upgrade desirable, for a long time. Hmmm... perhaps our humidity takes its toll on these items. Oh, and being tapped to see if they work is no good at all for microphones!

As for the board: sliders fill with dust and wear. Anyone spending those sort of sums, though, should be well into the realms of digital, rather than physical, control systems.

For all the money they spend, what was your impression of the result?

Another suggestion would be to spend a 2 / 3 minute session before every concert for balancing. Once it is WELL balanced, the engineer neither voluntarily nor from requests, should be allowed to change the levels. This would help a lot, both the performer and the listener. I have seen stalwarts like Zakir hussain spending quite an effort for balancing.

Yes and no. It should certainly be done, and the effort should be put in, but another thing that artists (and sound men) seem not to understand is that the volumes produced during the sound check are not those that occur once they have warmed up and gained enthusiasm.

Adjustments have to be made.

By the way... my hearing changes for the worst noticeably,and I am not that ancient yet: I wonder if I will be one of the ones clamouring for more amplification in a few years, and, where the audience can contain quite a number of elderly persons, I suspect that this may be a factor.

[coolkarni]

..

[ignoramus]

Hi Nick

Putting up a clip of mridangam tani, and a small bit where there is support for the flute and violin swaraprasthara. Do you feel that there is a signiicant change in the volume while playing? i deliberately chose an instrumental concert . even if the clip does not lead to any great conclusion, maybe you would like the mridangam.

: http://rapidshare.de/files/43618550/Thani__1.mp3.html

[coolkarni]

..

[arasi]

Let fiddlers fiddle with the mike
Fiddle dee dee, fiddle dee dee
While our frail 'morsing'er holds
The flag of solidarity for all to see

[Nick H]

I've been holding the solidarity banner alone for one thing or another for years!



Ignoramus, I am enjoying the thani! I'd say that it sounds like a recording made by a mridangam student, as the mridangam is so much to the fore. The poor violinist sounds as if they are playing from the next-door room!

A very enjoyable clip, but I'd hope to hear better balance in the concert hall, which to mind would be: flute is ok, violin much too low, and mridangam too loud. Clarity is nice though!

[ignoramus]

hi nick

there are a few such recordings, where the violin volume is low - maybe a mridangam students. glad that you liked it - i love the tone and the weight of the playing.

[Nick H]

I think the violin often gets a raw deal, volume-wise, in concerts.

I suspect that this recording was made by someone putting a single mike in the middle of the players. Flute is always loud, mridangam also. violin is much gentler. If recording with a singel mike, I find better to put it near the quieter player --- but these things are so variable.

[srinivasrgvn]

-

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, srinivasrgvn, What you wrote is absolutely true. Many are unaware that while Laya instills confidence, brilliance and intelligence in music-students Shruti gives pleasure. While, in Hindusthani music, every musician must have the acquaintance of the Tabla, most surprisingly, all over the globe, no basics pertaining to any percussion instrument have ever been included in any syllabus of Karnataka music. Observing this defect, some of the rhythmical exercises have recently been included in the syllabi of Govt.Certificate and Diploma examinations which are being imparted now to the music-students of the Govt. Schools and Colleges of Music & Dance in Andhra Pradesh. It is very important to do so in respect of all the syllabi of Karnataka music all over the globe. amsharma

[Nick H]

msakella makes an important point for students of music. I suppose HM musicians need the information that they get from the tabla to follow the cycles, so must understand the patterns?

For the audience, though, we seems to have been around this circle so many times:

People walk out during thani avarthanam because they do not know or have any knowledge about the percussion instruments like mridangam, ghatam, etc.

---So what knowledge do the non-playing rasikas have of violin, flute, veena? Just as little as they have of mridangam, ghatam, kanjira!

---They say they do not understand the calculations of the thani. Do they then understand the calculations of the swaras? It is true that many claim they do not understand the thani, but if we examine that claim, it doesn't seem to make sense!

They may defend this latter point by saying that calculation is only a part of kalpana swara, that there is raga there too. I think it applies equally to kalpana swara as to thani that the emphasis on maths depends on the musician, for some it is very great, for others it is very less.

I do defend the right of an individual not to have enthusiasm for the thani, which is why I tend to focus on the effect on others of the walk out.

By the way: perhaps it was the concerts that I happened to attend, but it seemed to me to be less this last season.

[arasi]

You may be right there, Nick. I did not see much of an exodus either this season. I like tanis more and more which does not mean that I know more of what is going on the stage. When they all come together (Sans noise, of course), it is as exciting as listening to other aspects of a concert.You are right again. You don't need to KNOW much to appreciate a tani, or for that matter the music which surrounds it. To be receptive to what is offered to you is the key to enjoying a concert. When you attend a lecture (out of interest), if you are an expert, you see the merits and demerits in the presentation, but others may glean a bit of information that may lead to their exploring more on that subject. CM being a sAgaram (sea) as we hear often on the forum, has divers (the knowledgeable ones), the swimmers (seasoned rasikAs) and those who stand on the shore and let the waves wet their feet. All are welcome to CM at their own levels of relationship with it. It is an experience which even at a minimal level cannot be dismissed as mere entertainment. Otherwise, a child who gets interested in a concert and sits through it quietly, knowing nothing much at all, is as much of a rasika as any other. It is natural for humans to be drawn to music. Genes and (or) exposure help in one's gaining experience in appreciating music. We are born with that ability. So, a child sitting through an entire concert need not be tagged as a highly gifted child or a prodigy! All toddlers love to play with pots and pans in the kitchen. We don't call them grand chefs in the making!

[srikant1987]

I think the violin often gets a raw deal, volume-wise, in concerts.

I suspect that this recording was made by someone putting a single mike in the middle of the players. Flute is always loud, mridangam also. violin is much gentler. ...

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -0101.html

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... shnan.html

As these threads demonstrate, violin has also been played to a sabha without any sound system. And indeed the violins were able to reach out into the hall for the second item, I can testify that. I was not present in the first one, but I'm sure it would have.

I have seen many accompanists hardly move their bow on the violin, which is perhaps why they're left inaudible. They probably think they'll be amplified nearly as much as the vocalist, due to which they physically reduce their playng volume.

[mridhangam]

Sirs

Recently one person asked me in a Lecture-Demonstration how to appreciate Thani Avartanam ...

Then I said "You have to sit and listen".

Unless and until one sits and listens to thani avartanam it is difficult for them to appreciate.
Rasikas who understand the difficult ragas mean to say that they started appreciating them even before they listened ? By patient hearing and decyphering only it is possible to appreciate. We can say that some section of the audience are impatient. If the artiste is popular and if the audience knows that the main artiste will sing interesting Thukkadas then "Kadanennu" (i dont know how to express in english) they will listen to the Thani Avartanam. For all the other artistes the exodus is evident. There are many other reasons also like transportation back home and darkness etc etc which can be attributed. One more reason that i can also see is that Thani in most of the concerts is pushed to the fag end of the concert. so may be we can try starting off the concert with a Thani Avartanam instead of Varnam .. hahahaha. If Varnam can be sung at the fag end why not Thani avartanam in the beginning ?
Many lecture-demonstrations are being held on various aspects of mridangam in each and every sabha and the attendance is as usual very thin. Hence i am at a loss to see the point of increasing the awareness through Lec-Dems which have been going on at different point of times at different places.
Unless audience themselves make a change in their attitude we can only keep on expecting change.

J.Balaji

[s_hari]

If thani avarthanam is in the beginning of concert - then audience might come late(;-

-hari

[mridhangam]

if it is for a popular concert they wont come late Mr.Hari sir ...at least to get a good place they will come early in that way we can make them listen ..

JB

[arasi]

Balaji,
I notice that increasingly, tanis are being played earlier in concerts--soon after the main rather than after the RTP. Am I right in thinking that they are played about midway during the concert? This way, the exodus can be stemmed. If tanis are not too long, along with availability of buses and autos at that hour, people would stay and learn to appreciate it. As you say, the more one listens, the more one learns to appreciate tanis. You don't need to know much either, believe me Another thing to consider is the noise level. If mudangists go for loudness (however skilled), that may scare people away.

[rajumds]

I am reminded of a Professor in my college. You can walk in and out of his class at any point of time. But he reserved the right to mark the attendance at his will. If you had walked in just a minute before that , you get your attendance marked but if you had walked out a just a minute before, then you lost it (attendance carried 5% marks then).

[bilahari]

That's rather funny, rajumds. I imagine he'd get sued in the US.

The only two feasible solutions at this stage seem to be:
1. Giving thani in the first hour or so of the concert (after the submain?)
2. Giving a 5-10 min break right before the main.

[mohan]

Sri BRC Iyengar's take http://www.krishnaganasabha.org/article ... yengar.pdf

[arasi]

Thank you, Mohan.
An excellent article which is both for novices and experts (among mrudangists too:)). There are times when even novices like me hear the mrudangam siing melodiously. Cannot forget how PMI's sound fascinated me as a child. It blended with the vocalist and in a tAni, interpreted and enhanced the singing, thus continuing the pattern of the melody.
This essay while it is simple enough to read, speaks about the history, aesthetics and a percussion instrument's role as an integral part of the concert, rather than as a venue for exhibiting one's own skills. Does it apply to tALa vAdya concerts or has one room for exhibiting one's skills more there?

[Svaapana]

Thanks for the excellent reference Mohan.

As BRCI had beautifully said "only a slim margin of tasteless exhibition is separated from an experience that can be deeply moving".

A request to mridangam players. It is a common practice for many vocalists to announce the name of the raga specially when it is an uncommon one, and some even announce the other details of the krithi. Similarly, prior to the commencement of the thani the mridangam player can give a brief explanation on the rhythm aspect and some salient features that they would like the audience to observe during their thani. This will not only establish rapport with the audience but will also help them (i.e. those who find it difficult to appreciate laya) understand the intricate structure of the thani.

[Nick H]

It is a good article, yes. Thanks Mohan.

It is a reminder that just as all concerts are not great, and some may even be bad, so not all thanis are equal.

[arasi]

Yes Nick. Just as we may end up listening to not so great a violinist not once but several times during the concert!

[blackadder]

Well said, arasi. It has always baffled me that one is willing to listen to a mediocre violinist during the solo essays on and off throughout the concert but does not have the same willingness to listen to a ten minute thani. I am not too sure if it is ignorance that causes this; I believe it is more a trend that has been set years ago and we all know how keen we Indians are on tradition. Even an obnoxious tradition of walking out the moment the thani starts and to head towards the canteen.

[Nick H]

Many are not so willing.

The violin return is often taken as an opportunity to visit the loo, read the newspaper... or just chat with a friend sitting a couple of rows away!

There is one point that I think I didn't repeat in this iteration of The Thani Discussion, which is that it is not just carnatic music that suffers. Back in the days that I attended a few rock concerts, I can say that the percussion solo there was also an excuse for many to "escape" to the bar, especially if it was expected to be long and complex. There is an opposite, but equally annoying, western-audience reaction, which is the explosion of delight to a piece of very ordinary tabla tekka. It's a bit like applauding the sitar player for a piece of wonderful tuning up!

[bilahari]

Aha, so CM is not alone in this quandary. Nick, this season I noticed several people leaving as soon as violinists started their main solo essays. If anything the cancer is spreading.

[rajaglan]

Hi,

I cannot appreciate the thani technically. The thani playing always impresses me.
And I should be there for 'that' to give support to the laya artist who supported the main artist for which I have come.
So I can always be there but knowing it technically will help me to stay back with my mind analysing and improving myself over a period of time.
Probably I need to take a course on it.

And though it looks like many leaves during thani, a portion of the crowd take it as a interval to go to restrooms and come back.

Also laya vidwans do not take the-crowd-leaving as a serious problem, I guess. It is more of a distraction when you start the thani.
And again laya vidwans know that the main artist will not like to loose the crowd that has come for tukkada or RTP.
I think if they feel that they have got a crowd (crowd of main artist like Sanjay or TMK ...) to show their talent in a short period say 10-15 min
which otherwise they wouldnot have got in another main artist or on a solo laya concert, then everyone in the hall is happy
including the main artist. Offcourse there are exceptions like UKS, Mani who are larger than the main artist.

[erode14]

The three kinds of Percussion Solos are there....

1. laya vinyAsam - solo

2. live & awesome - soul-owe

3. laya vi - nAsam - so low

[srinivasrgvn]

The three kinds of Percussion Solos are there....

1. laya vinyAsam - solo

2. live & awesome - soul-owe

3. laya vi - nAsam - so low

[Nick H]

Could I extend that to

4. laya ad Nausiam - for the few who really don't know when to stop!

[arasi]

Pun (pan)nagarajan at work again!

Bravo, nick! I dare not say encore!
(for your benefit:pannagam is also snake, as in nAga)

[vijay]

Brilliant Erode sir!