CM and enlightenment

[ragam-talam]

It's well known that CM can help in one's moving up on the spiritual path and reaching an enlightened state. Are there any concrete suggestions that outline how best to use CM to achieve enlightenment? Is it enough just to listen to the music? Or are there specific meditation techniques to go with the music? I am very interested in finding out more about this topic.
Thanks in advance.

[VK RAMAN]

slokam, kirtan and namavali may go together to self actualization. Sow. VishAkA Hari has beautifully explained this in her NarayaNa tIrthar harikatha how the Saint attained his enlightenment.

[baboosh]

It's well known that CM can help in one's moving up on the spiritual path and reaching an enlightened state. Are there any concrete suggestions that outline how best to use CM to achieve enlightenment? Is it enough just to listen to the music? Or are there specific meditation techniques to go with the music? I am very interested in finding out more about this topic.
Thanks in advance.

There is even a sloka in Yagnavalkya smrithi which begins with Vina vadana tatvagna: meaning that if one learns to play Vina with sruthi and laya he can get deliverance without much effort.This is also quoted by H.H.Mahasvamigal of Kanchi

[ragam-talam]

There is even a sloka in Yagnavalkya smrithi which begins with Vina vadana tatvagna: meaning that if one learns to play Vina with sruthi and laya he can get deliverance without much effort.This is also quoted by H.H.Mahasvamigal of Kanchi

Thanks for the info.
Does it have to veena playing and not just veena listening?
I was hoping for a technique that doesn't involve singing or playing an instrument.

[newyorker]

So, here's what you do:

1. Listen to a recording of bhairavi (it's gotta be bhairavi, sindhu bhairavi just won't do) and imagine yourself in a padmAsanA posture in the Himalayas pondering on the imponderable. Now, can you see yourself slowly rise above the ground without support? (Having trouble with this? Turn up the volume on the iPod and/or dim the lights. If necessary, drive the kids and the wife to the in-laws place. And, are you positive that it's not sindhu bhairavi? Hint: sindhu bhairavi will sound like thodi without the gamakams ... plus its just totally wacked out with all sorts of 'misra' notes)

2. Apply the shampoo bottle cliche: 'Repeat as often as necessary.'

3. If you didn't repeat step 1 in step 2, you're done! Congratulations, you're now enlightened! (or cuckoo, but trust me, it's really difficult to tell the difference)

(Honestly, I'd rather just smoke a certain elixir that the ancient sadhus used to good effect, but if you prefer the Bhairavi-in-the-Himalayas route, knock yourself out!)

*Braces for the brick bats*

Note to admin: I would totally understand if you deleted this post on sight.

[cmlover]

The whole idea is just a hogwash! There isn't a shred of scientific evidence to show that CM can lead to enlightenment. CM is good for personal entertainment for those who have the time for it. Enlightenment! blah! Perhaps a psychiatrist can disabuse the minds of those who follow such exotic pursuits!

[arasi]

A new yorker is not unfamiliar with a couch.
And it is not the first time that it is claimed that CM and bhakthi are inseparable.

[Sundara Rajan]

I wouldn't call it "enlightenment". Personally I have experienced a "spiritual uplifting" when I listen to music that is "bakthi-laden" or of "total surrender to the Almighty". In fact some such music has moved me to tears , especially ones that I understand , regardless of whether it is in Tamil, Sanskrit, Telugu etc. and such an experience has helped me to unburden myself of my worldly worries, at least for the moment. This is also true when I listen to a good rendering in sahana or karaharapriya, my favorite ragas.

[vasanthakokilam]

I wrote a while ago about a particular definition of enlightenement as a gradual decrease in entropy. In other words enlightenment can be viewed as phenomenon of a gradual decrease in "information loss." If that idea appeals to you then when applied to music listening/perception, here are the stages of decreasing entropy one needs to go through.

music and U ( external )
music in U ( internal )
mUsic ( internal/external perception disappears )

[Nick H]

I am not sure that there is any such thing as enlightnement! I wonder if those who say that CM has enlightened them, thereafter found their troubles dealing with children to have disappeared, their ability to understand others, and to help them became enhanced a thousandfold... and so on!

Spiritual enlighten, yes, I'd agree with Sundara Rajan --- although I've experienced that with all sorts of music, including those that might be considered anything but spiritual.

Or was it? We experience some sort of emotional uplift, bliss even, and we describe it as spiritual, yet who can define that? It is one of those have-to-be-there-first-to-recognise-it things.

I think, ultimately, I don't want to categorise or define it. I am happy that music sometimes makes me feel wonderful. I also recognise that there are certain performers who, at least on some occasions cause something that makes me feel not only wonderful, but physically and emotionally more healthy.

[srikant1987]

-

[ragam-talam]

music and U ( external )
music in U ( internal )
mUsic ( internal/external perception disappears )

Very interesting. Any ideas on how to move from 'music and U' to 'music'?

[VK RAMAN]

VK's "mUsic ( internal/external perception disappears )" is self actualization and one becomes the music.

[girish_a]

VK, can you explain the "gradual decrease in information loss" thing?

[vasanthakokilam]

Girish: I found the thread in which this was written about before: http://rasikas.org/forums/post86443.html#p86443 ( post 85 ).

That entire thread is on such topics.

Having said that, one thing is to write and talk about such things ( definitely useful ) but it is an entirely different thing to come up with practical methods and techniques to put it into practice. I guess that is what r-t is after and it remains to be seen how useful these discussions are towards that. Let us hope that a few will indulge in "self experiments' and report their methods and results.

[sureshvv]

It's well known that CM can help in one's moving up on the spiritual path and reaching an enlightened state. Are there any concrete suggestions that outline how best to use CM to achieve enlightenment?

Depends on how YOU define "moving up" on the spiritual path and what you think an enlightened state is.

[arunk]

I think the basic question is what do we precisely mean by "enlightenment"? I wonder if this is one of the most overused, misused and misunderstood phrases that we throw around.

Arun

[coolkarni]

..

[ragam-talam]

Thanks VK and Cool, for helping clarify what I am after.
Yes, I am after practical suggestions in the context of CM.

I agree, Enlightenment is one of those things like God that we all generally know what it is, but not sure if we can define it precisely. We are told the likes of the Buddha, Jesus, Ramana Maharshi, Tyagaraja, et al were enlightened.
A definition-of-sorts is provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(concept)

[Nick H]

Are there no members here who have moved to the point of spiritual refinement after coming into contact with CM ?

Well, I touched on the potential healing nature of music, but differentiated that from the word "elightenment".

Perhaps it is more a case of coming into touch with the enlightenment of an other.

Enlightenment would have to something that was life-changing. I can say that one particular concert knocked me off the fence into the Carnatic camp; I can say that another particular concert hightened my interest in mridangam rather than tabla. I can say that my subsequent engagement with Carnatic music was to be utterly life-changing --- although there was a big helping hand from the management of the company that took over the one I worked for .

I love the Nasruddin story

[coolkarni]

..

[chalanata]

Instead of trying to define what enlightenment will it not be better to narrate and learn from incidents from the lives of people who got enlightenment through music?

[Suji Ram]

I too feel enlightenment is what others feel in your presence.
If someone feels that about you, it could be a result of music (carnatic) - not necessarily.

My mom recently visited me and said, "there is some calmness surrounding you" It might very well be due to my involvement with CM in the past few years. I literally talked, played and fed her music in the 4 days she spent with me apart from other fun stuff. For me it was a great compliment coming from a mother. Enlightenment or not - I do not know! Many a times I have paused during practice to contemplate on the meaning. At other times I do not recall how I managed to learn a composition with all the intricacies such as that of Dikshitars.

[Nick H]

For me, it is when a something-special in a person combines with them also being a performer. It does not have to be carnatic music; it does not have to be music at all. I have even experienced the some-thing-special from people whose subject leaves me cold, eg mathematic, physics.

Since carnatic music is what we are all here to talk about, though, I have experienced something-special in performance twice this year, and both have been performances by R Vedavalli.

I've been lucky to meet DKP, but not lucky enough to see her sing. There also I have experienced a some-thing-special.

As to how we should define something-special, I'm not sure that I really want to try! Nor am I sure that it would be the same special for any two of us. It is something that surpasses the ordinary physical sensations as well as the mental and emotional.

Suji Ram... I do think that there is a yoga in the study and practice of music, in the concentration and discipline of music.

[sureshvv]

So folks , please do come out and let us know if (and how) CM has made a difference to you .

Now that coolji has thrown down the gauntlet, I will share that some of the "enlightenment" I felt was great humility in the face of greatness, sometimes only fleeting, and the realization of the insignificance of the sum total of my existence Meaningful lyrics, spontaneous creativity, impeccable delivery, pleasant demeanor and shared humility are some of the elements that demonstrate such greatness to me.

[newyorker]

Once, when Mullah Nasruddin was visiting a Western town, he was invited to attend a fashion show. He went, and afterwards he was asked how he liked it. "It's a complete swindle!" he exclaimed indignantly. "Whatever do you mean?" he was asked. "They show you the women - and then try to sell you the clothes!"

OMG, ROFL! Welcome to the world of advertising, Mullah! (And, just in case you were wondering, wearing the Axe deodorant has absolutely no effect on women during elevator rides)

[arasi]

A new yorker is a new yorker is a new yorker, especially when he resides in the muhalla (just a guess) and reads the weekly by the same name

[ragam-talam]

I too feel enlightenment is what others feel in your presence.
If someone feels that about you, it could be a result of music (carnatic) - not necessarily.

My mom recently visited me and said, "there is some calmness surrounding you"

Suji, what you wrote was very inspiring and deeply moving. It sounded authentic. I would be interested in learning more about the transformation.

[coolkarni]

..

[arasi]

We would all agree (I hope) that Buddha experienced enlightenment.
What Sujisays about her mother's visit is that it made them experience empathy of a kind which was a revelation for both of them--a milestone in their relationship. Suji, my guess The heightened stage of this experience is epiphany.
Some rightly asked the question: what exactly do you mean by enlightenment. We have trivialized the word. We ask someone who knows some little thing that we would like to know and say: please enlighten me.
Others talked of spiritual betterment--which is more within the realm of mortals to strive for. Agreeing that Buddha was enlightened, we also know that it did not end there. It was just a starting point. The 'result' of his enlightenment was what mattered--his reaching out to humanity. There have been many enlightened souls who did exactly the same. Those among them who got enlightened and did not leave the cave in a remote mountain and chose to stay there, attained mukti, and that was all.
Coming back to music, yes, at its best it can be soul-stirring and may inspire you in your spiritual discovery...

[Shivadasan]

Ragam Talam has raised a question that every one would want to ask.

It would be useful to us if we are clear as to what ‘enlightenment’ means so that the argument can be fully understood. CM also needs to be defined. CM for this purpose is not necessarily the form in which that we sing and hear. It need not be vocal music, it can be any instrument, even a percussion instrument or even a Tanpura. It can be a small part of it. It need not be complete with alapana, Krithi, neraval etc.. It can be a krithi alone, or a particular raga, or an exercise in laya. The point is such a thing is found in CM as understood today.

Enlightenment can be described as a condition of mind when it is in a peculiar state where it so much absorbed within in experiencing that ‘something indescribable’ that there is no desire to think. So no thoughts arise. The mind is blank. J.Krishnamurthy calls it a sate of ‘Choiceless Awareness’. If this state of absorption prevails all the time he would be considered as enlightened. We would for the present leave aside the various arguments whether this is possible, desirable etc. and launch into the investigation whether CM provides any help in achieving enlightenment . We should be satisfied if are able to find out that there is a possibility to achieve this mental state even if it is remote.

The Choiceless Awareness state of mind, as sages say, is our natural state. We have ceased to be in that state by loading the mind with thoughts connected with ‘me’ and mine’. When we handle a dusty mirror, the moment we remove the dust we see our face clearly. The thoughts are like dust on the mirror. The moment they are removed from our minds (or absent), we experience the ‘Reality’.

Our minds are constantly active throwing in more and more thoughts (dust) and we feel utterly helpless about it. All spiritual pursuits have the basic purpose of reducing the speed of production of thought. The more one gets attached to or hates a particular thing, the more would his mind be working out thoughts in respect of it continuously, whether he likes it or not. Less the attachment less the inflow of thoughts. A clear understanding of the fact that ‘ the only thing permanent in this world is change’ would help us to desist from getting attached to those things that are going to change . The change need not be a welcome one. It can as well be otherwise.

One can move forward on the path of enlightenment only when his mind is free from the pressure of continuous inflow of thoughts. To achieve this he must be ‘spiritual’ enough to desist from the infatuation for ‘me’ and ‘mine’.

When such a person chooses CM for his enlightenment it is possible for him to succeed. When the music solemn, calm and intensely tuneful, the mind gets absorbed in it. It does so because it is its very nature. A mind full of time schedules, anxieties and apprehensions may not find it interesting. It is my own experience that even listening to a very tuneful tanpura can make your mind silent. I had myself gone into raptures on the following occasions; when the mridangam or the tabla weaves a continuous magic of sound, when a highly tuneful musician reaches and stays on the shadja, hearing a high speed jhala in sitar or sarod , Parans and relas in the Pakhwaj. It is just the enjoyment of the sound with eyes closed. In that state naturally all thoughts would be absent.

The mind gets absorbed In rajasic type music ( full of gymnastics and vyavahara) also, but in a different way. It watches and anticipates and enjoys when its anticipation comes true. It is true the thoughts of day today worries would be absent and we would have forgotten ourselves. But such a music is not conducive to enlightenment because the mind remains active and does not get absorbed.

Apart from providing a fantastic range of sounds, CM provides us with a rich fare of krithis in praise of the deities. These krithis if rendered with respect and with understanding of the meaning do produce a favourable state of mind to proceed in the path of enlightenment. Listening to them or rendering them with intense emotion, full of tears would itself be a great spiritual sadhana. If a person is deeply involved in the mire of samsara it would be very difficult for him to walk on the path of enlightenment whether it is through CM or Yoga or any other means.

Pudukkottai Manpoodiya Pillai, Pudukkottai Dakshinamurthy Pillai, Mysore Vasudeavachariar can be cited as present day examples of enlightenment through music. Apart from the Trinity, Swami Narayana Theerthar and Swami Raghavendra were using music as vehicle for enlightenment. Kanchi Sankaracharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi has also endorsed that music with bhakthi can lead a person to Moksha.

[koyaliya]

i think this article (one of many) is pertinent to this thread - http://www.carnatica.net/keertansastras.htm
i definitely agree with mr. vk raman said about sow. vishaka's narayana theertha harikatha. many harikathaa by vishaka and others before her, describe enlightenment attained by bhakthas through music, and listening to their stories can transfuse their bhakthi to the listener.

as far as my own thoughts on the subject;
one of my favorite verses in the bhaja govindam is 'bhagavad gita kinchidadheetha.' - sloka 20, attributed to Dhridabhaktha.
in a very simplified translation, it means that the smallest attention to the bhagavad gita, like a single drop of ganga water, is so full of purity that it inevitably renders the reader/drinker enlightened and not even yama can phase him.

the story i remember (not sure from where) that is associated with it is that when dhridabhaktha wrote the verse, there was a discussion about whether this was misleading, as a single verse of the can NOT give a person moksha. his explanation was that the beauty of the gita is such that a person is drawn in, slowly. one verse leads to a desire to learn a second verse. to understand the underlying meaning. then a third. and a chapter. and another chapter. and so on till moksha is attained.

I think Carnatic music is just like the gita in this verse, where... if you start to truly listen, you cannot get enough. eventually, you will have a strain of some tune or the other running through your brain at all times. you also tend to hear it in places where it isn't evident. my grandmother used to say that when she heard the phone ringing it sounded like 'murugu...murugu...' and made her think of the song 'muruga muruga'. i saw a license plate yesterday that had the letters 'ERU' and i started singing 'eru mayil eri kundru thorum nindradiyavan' (aarumo aaval). it simply pervades your existence.

what enlightenment is or not i do not know. but Carnatic music does, for sure, lift the spirit.
personally, i attribute patience, a flood of love on command, laughter and courage in my life to the strain of music that runs through my brain.
which isn't to say i don't lose my temper or cry on occasion. it just makes life easier.

[Suji Ram]

what enlightenment is or not i do not know. but Carnatic music does, for sure, lift the spirit.
personally, i attribute patience, a flood of love on command, laughter and courage in my life to the strain of music that runs through my brain.
which isn't to say i don't lose my temper or cry on occasion. it just makes life easier.

Koyaliya,
How true, with me too!!
And the thing you wrote about seeing "words" which take you to hum a tune- I share that too

Enlightenment, in the sense of uplifting, is not abstract, emptiness, or no flow of thoughts. I believe, at the core it is still our intellect. We do process that information, -that flash of energy we see in a person with our own. I do science for a living and I tend to think like that.

[ragam-talam]

Shivadasan and Koyaliya, thank you for your interesting posts.
I especially liked Shivadasan's lines:
"When the music is solemn, calm and intensely tuneful, the mind gets absorbed in it. It does so because it is its very nature."

A few related thoughts are here:
Ramana Maharshi: http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/teachings.html

Self - Realization

That which is, is peace. All that we need do is to keep quiet. Peace is our real nature. We spoil it. What is required is that we cease to spoil it.

And Sivananda in the book 'Music and Yoga': http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDJ290/

But Music is for all: from inanimate objects to consciousness-transfigured Yogi, every bit of creation is subject to its away to a smaller or greater extent; and if there is any agency under the sun which can make Man, with all his conflict of feelings and passions and with sorrow, disease and death dogging him at every step, forget all of them for at least a blissful moment of unalloyed pleasure, it is music and alone.

[baboosh]

There is even a sloka in Yagnavalkya smrithi which begins with Vina vadana tatvagna: meaning that if one learns to play Vina with sruthi and laya he can get deliverance without much effort.This is also quoted by H.H.Mahasvamigal of Kanchi

Thanks for the info.
Does it have to veena playing and not just veena listening?
I was hoping for a technique that doesn't involve singing or playing an instrument.

The import of it is there is a way to attain spiritual enlightenment concentrating on nada
Actually some of them are derived from Patanjala yoga of Nada,Bidu and to concentrate of anaahta sabdam that is supposed to emanate once we learn to withdraw all our senses.Some of them are highly advanced concepts which are possible for a true yogi.

[Shivadasan]

I would like to add what I had omitted to mention earlier. If some one says "All you have to do is to go on listening to CM and it will take you automatically to moksha"

[vasanthakokilam]

Shivadasan: Very good input.

This thread got me to reading the English translations of a few of the upanishads. The bow-arrow analogy in Mundaka Upanishad is similar to what you are saying.

Let me quote the relevant portions that are interesting.
--------
Mundaka Upanishad, Second Mundaka, second Khanda:

3. Having taken the Upanishad as the bow, as the great weapon, let him place on it the arrow, sharpened by devotion! Then having drawn it with a thought directed to that which is, hit the mark, O friend, viz. that which is the Indestructible!

4. Om is the bow, the Self is the arrow, Brahman is called its aim. It is to be hit by a man who is not thoughtless; and then, as the arrow (becomes one with the target), he will become one with Brahman.
---------

The imagery and metaphors are quite vivid and profound. One can make a similar case for the role of music in the above metaphors for such spiritual pursuits for those who are so inclined.

[ragam-talam]

Reading through some of the posts above and cited articles, what seems to be emerging is that we move more into silence as we get enlightened. And good music can help in this process of 'entropy lessening' (to borrow a concept from VK).

Is this a fair summary of the process?

[coolkarni]

..

[VK RAMAN]

Will this KalyANarAma bring exaltation:
http://www.acidplanet.com/components/em ... 842&T=1974

[ragam-talam]

Silence is truer and more expressive than speech;and the hour shall come when we shall be silent.But why muzzle our tongues before that hour has struck ?

I am intrigued by the above. Is 'hour shall come when we shall be silent' a reference to death? Enlightenment is sometimes characterised as a death-and-rebirth during one's life. Jesus mentions being 'born again', and a similar theme appears in other religions.

[uday_shankar]

I've certainly found Carnatic music (of certain types ) calming to the mind as opposed to Western classical music which seems to draw my mind out to the external world and so ultimately disturbs it ! After some great Carnatic and Hindustani music there is also a "prasada buddhi", an overwhelming sense of gratefulness to the great musician(s) who has been able to bring about this wonderful sense of contentment in oneself. Music is certainly a special kind of activity because it has no overt "material" gain and so the musician's role, in society is a vital and poignant one. Somehow, to classify classical music as "entertainment" (either in the public's or musician's mind) falls way short of the mark, at least to me.

That said, I think it is the stuff of popular and widespead fallacy that Tyagaraja or Dhikshitar "sang their way to God". God-consciousness or Moksha or Buddha state or Nirvana or Sahaja Samadhi or "enlightenment" or Shahada or Christ Consciousness or Christhood or self-realization is an internal state and nothng external, including music, has anything to do with it. That is what is meant by silence referred to by Coolkarni above. There are saints who sang and saints who remained silent. There may be musical people who have a long way to go to self-realization and there may be unmusical dish washers (or any other legitimate actors of society) who are self-realized. Thank God God is equally attainable to all - in any case I don't want any part of a God who is not .

Often many great saints urged the people towards bhajans, nama sankeertanams, etc... as a way of bringing about chitta shuddi or calming the vrittis of the mind. However we can rest assured it is impossible to even glimpse self-realization through any amount of intellectual gymnastics or analysis. One's heart has to be opened by a great Guru or Saint or God and it has to click. The (false) ego has to disappear completely.

As to the greatness of Tyagaraja and others, quite pertinent is the following exchange with Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi, from Moments Remembered - Reminiscences of Bhagavan Ramana by V Ganesan, Sri Ramanashram Tiruvannamalai 1990.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Uday, that is a great succicnt answer from Maharishi. BTW, that English translation is not quite right on the core point "petradai pAdinArgaL" should be translated as 'they sang about realization after realization', in other words 'their songs are about their realized state'. True?

[coolkarni]

..

[uday_shankar]

Cool, indeed ! I understand exactly what you mean - it's all internal. The external musician, like the external Guru, is only something to awaken what's internal to us.

vk
True! Ever since I read that many years ago, "paadippeRavillai, petradaippaadinargal" rings in my ears everytime I hear a discussion about these matters . Perhaps it would be nice if a Telugu speaker lets us know if there are any more translation devils from Telugu to Tamil. Till then here's my best attempt to correct it:

"...they did not attain (realization) by singing; they sang what they attained/realized, that's why their music is such that it has (eternal) life..."

[coolkarni]

..

[srikant1987]

We tend to attach some spirituality to any person or thing that comes to comfort us in times of extreme difficulty in our lives.

I'm going to check the history of some religions and see how it works out.

[coolkarni]

..

[coolkarni]

....

[sureshvv]

Thanks Uday.

A little disappointing to me but seems to make more sense.