Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

[harimau]

.
Hidden agenda :-

3. In Tamil Nadu. people are advised/encouraged/brainwashed to avoid surnames,
to help non-Tamils to hide their place of origin.

During the 2009-2014 timeframe, DMK was in power, the party which is famous for "protecting" Tamil.

During some public meeting, Dinamalar reported that two cabinet ministers were having a private conversation in Telugu, their mother-tongue, while seated on the dais.

Let us just say that their children most definitely did not set themselves on fire when Tamil was in danger!

[sureshvv]

.
Hidden agenda :-

3. In Tamil Nadu. people are advised/encouraged/brainwashed to avoid surnames,
to help non-Tamils to hide their place of origin.

Nothing hidden about it. This is a gesture on the part of the sensitive and aware Tamilian to shed off the baggage of caste. It is a noble and progressive gesture and we should be proud,

This Tamil/non-Tamil is another bogey of divisiveness that the cranks thrive on. Please don't encourage it.

[sankark]

.
Hidden agenda :-

3. In Tamil Nadu. people are advised/encouraged/brainwashed to avoid surnames,
to help non-Tamils to hide their place of origin.

A new spin? What is the need for a surname in the first place?

[sankark]

And Hart's article isn't all flawless either.

In Akam 110.16, a girl from a fishing village says to an evidently high-born man that he would not like to eat fish, which is a “low” food, while in Kali. 121.20, the fish in a harbor are said to be “low.” This suggests that in ancient times, as now, fishermen were of quite low caste.
I really don't think the first sentence in the above quote can lead to the "suggestion" in the second sentence.

But if she were a widow, she would have to undertake the harshest asceticism, or even take her own life in suttee.
Sati wasn't sangam times practice to my knowledge; and neither the vedic period.

And what was lost/imputed in translations? So take it with a pinch of salt. In general any such cross cultural/language studies are better done with a jar of salt on standby for reaching immediately.

Including theatlantic or thedailybeast (or NYT or WaPo, or oh you get the gist) articles. Every such article is to some or major extent biased by the authors worldview/pov.

[shankarank]

Nothing hidden about it. This is a gesture on the part of the sensitive and aware Tamilian to shed off the baggage of caste. It is a noble and progressive gesture and we should be proud,

That is abolishing surnames without actually abolishing the underlying the issue. All this abolishing is like a Church acting in the past. People underestimate the power of families. They cannot employ enough Women or Men to liberate them from that hold. There are not enough resources to do that!

This Tamil/non-Tamil is another bogey of divisiveness that the cranks thrive on. Please don't encourage it.

That is a legitimate issue, and the film stars coming to fore and their backgrounds do raise the suspicion justifiably. Tamils going to their roots is a welcome thing!

Film industry weaved many false stories like projecting the valor of kaTTabomman etc.!

[shankarank]

A new spin? What is the need for a surname in the first place?

Surname was invented as a guide for the taxman goes the story. But many surnames like Smith and Cook point to their occupation once upon a time. Even still it will be useful for the tax man, since land ownership is still based on the old jAti hierarchy.

[sureshvv]

That is abolishing surnames without actually abolishing the underlying the issue.

No one is abolishing them. People are just refusing to use them.

For eg., your handle here is "shankarank". Not "shankarank <your caste name>". Not because it has been abolished.

[shankarank]

my quadrant will be obvious pretty easily once I talk! But there are many others that can hide it easily!

[shankarank]

Including theatlantic or thedailybeast (or NYT or WaPo, or oh you get the gist) articles. Every such article is to some or major extent biased by the authors worldview/pov.

And what anything is unbiased view in the discourse on humanities? The one that utilizes Marxist framework? And what is wrong about a hierarchical society in the past? Every urban culture of those times required that. You cannot build a city without that!

Why should we feel bad about the jAti system of the old times? vARNA is debatable and has a burden of proof that it is beneficial! jAti is self organized . It no doubt limits humans into a prescribed sphere of activity. But why spend energy discussing it, critiquing it? In the current scenario it has largely faded in spaces where it is not relevant, like the industrial metros and such.

Entire U.S has been built taking advantage of social hierarchy. That included slave labor from Africa and China. But U.S rich people invested back to create institutions of repute. We should demand the same from Indian bigwigs, instead of letting them donate to U.S Ivy leagues for some personal benefit.

Let them create some good private universities. Lets demolish JNU and all the leftist discourses and build hospitals for jawans and the poor there!

Instead we are taking these professors so seriously!

[shankarank]

Through linguistic analysis they have been dated to from 1st century AD to 6th century AD.

How could that be, if there was this interregnum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalabhra_dynasty

Dating in India by Western Indologists has high bibilical bias. Was what happened in West Asia had some global impact?

[sankark]

A new spin? What is the need for a surname in the first place?

Surname was invented as a guide for the taxman goes the story. But many surnames like Smith and Cook point to their occupation once upon a time. Even still it will be useful for the tax man, since land ownership is still based on the old jAti hierarchy.

https://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/09/08 ... view-above

The gOtram basically a rudimentary lineage system, tracking to a historical ancestor, isn't it? Though it breaks down when once goes to the immediate/living ancestors/cousins/nephews etc. For that one has to just rely on the living to identify who-is-who and family tree - again runs into trouble when adoption is in play.

Most families won't be able to track their ancestors and family tree branches hence onward, beyond the great-grandfather (kollu thAthA) or the one prior to that (eLLu thAthA).

Now that brings to an interesting thought: why not marry within a gOtram beyond. Say two vAdUla descendents that can only track their ancestor to the eLLu thAthA generation (the groom is the 5th gen counting that eLLu generation ancestor inclusive), does the injunction to not marry within the gOtram still applicable/practical?

[shankarank]

Well traditional practices are about sacredness. Like astrology and vaastu, you can invoke reasoning and science. That is not the point about those. It is to honour cherished practices of living, where lot of good things we owe it to them anyways.

Second, if you think existence is spiritual, then these injunctions further act to guide you in that direction, that you don't do something because you like it. You also ensure that you conform to tradition. That works if the other person has the same attitude towards tradition.

Otherwise it does not matter does it?

[vgovindan]

"........Think for also for a minute about the marriages in the Parsi community, or the Ashkanazim Jews of Russia. If you marry outside the community, you are excommunicated (even there, gender bias is seen in some cases). And notice how the population of such communities has dropped over generations......."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 0.ece/amp/

Gotra is not restricted to eLLu tAttA or koLLu tAttA. It goes right back to Rshis whom we refer in pravaram. Let's not, in the name of modernism, decry all practices and customs. The problem is that we behave differently as - man/woman, father/mother, son/daughter. Let's have a unified approach to life - not according to our standpoint.

The Parsi community is now facing extinction.

I suggest you read Devi Bhagavatam or other similar treatises which traces our origins - anthropomorphically - from a single person.

[RSR]

In the Patriarchal system, which is considered more progressive in social evolution than the matriarchal system, gothram refers to the lineage traced through the father.
Hence if a boy and girl have the same gothram, it means that they are in a way, bother and sister,
I hope that in all civilized societies, it amounts to incest.
Rakshabandan adopts a girl as one 's own sister and pledges to defend her honour at any cost.
Read Shakespeare's play, ' Measure for Measure'

[RSR]

People of all the other states in India , except Tamilnadu, including writers, intellectuals, political leaders, reformists, and almost everyone, make use of caste surnames. (Even in West Bengal and Kerala).
Casteism is rampant even if caste surnames are avoided. apparently.
It is taking the form of 'honour killing' .It is not external practice like dropping ( hiding?) one's caste identity but throwing away all caste superiority that counts.

[sankark]

In the Patriarchal system, which is considered more progressive in social evolution than the matriarchal system, gothram refers to the lineage traced through the father.
Hence if a boy and girl have the same gothram, it means that they are in a way, bother and sister,

You mean to say seed is considered more equal than the land it is sowed upon. And somehow that is considered "progressive". That would be so funny, if not sad.

Anywhoo, my question wasn't on that, even if gothram is traced only via the seed-donor, aka father. My question was at what point in the lineage of a common male ancestor - 5 or 10 or 50 - would one consider that same gothra folks can marry? The current folks would be easily 60-100+ generations separated from the gOthra rshi's I reckon.

I think bhAradhwAja folks are plenty relative to some other gOthram (srIvatsa for example). Now when arises a situation where a boy or girl of bhAradwAja gOtram doesn't find a non-bhAradhwAja match in their prime due to socio-economic barriers, they have to forego marriage?

Or can such a person be adopted by a non-bhAradwAja gOthra person and suddenly, open sesame, they are eligible to marry bhAradhwAja gOthra person?

[vgovindan]

@sankark
Please refer to the link given. There seem to be two options - 'dAtu' and six generation exception.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

[rshankar]

The same folks who have/had issues with sa-gotra marriage did countenance marriages between first cousins. Hypocrisy much, or ignorance much?

[sankark]

The same folks who have/had issues with sa-gotra marriage did countenance marriages between first cousins. Hypocrisy much, or ignorance much?

that's between cross-cousins but not parallel-cousins, isn't it?

I mean one can marry a paternal aunts kid (the aunt has changed gOthram from parents' gOthram on marriage) or maternal uncle's kid (mom has changed gOthram from uncle's gOthram on marriage). So there is method to the madness from pure gOthram perspective.

Tongue firmly in cheek: lets keep unwed illicit offspring out.

[rshankar]

My point is that if sa-gotra weddings are taboo because of a common ancestor gazillion years ago (presumably to avoid consanguinity), the über consanguinity of first cousin weddings should be (have been) so much more taboo by several orders of magnitude. That’s all.

[RSR]

1) Till very recently, Matriarchal system was in vogue in Kerala. And only in the early decades of 1900-1970, famous writers , novelists , film makers , journalists and short-story writers , led a campaign against the system and today, that state also has joined all the states in India adapting the patriarchal system. As Engels points out in 'The origin of family and private property', the system has roots in property relations.
2) In Kanyakumari district also, there was a similar system and KavimaNi Desikavinaayagam pillai has written a poem 'marumakkal thaayam'. Times have changed now.
3) Let us look at the positive side of the system of Patrilinearity. Though there have been misuse in all the societies ( No modern society practises Matriarchy) , the Patriarchal system gave our women, a great measure of security, dignity, affection from her husband, children and brothers.
It did not prevent our mothers and sisters and aunts from study at home and by listening and learning. Nature has so willed them to be of lesser physical strength and some physical limitations. Not mental or intellectual limitations. There have been great warriors like Velu Nachiyar, and queens like famous Ahalya Bai of Indore. Our own country had great social workers, political leaders and scientists second to none ( like 'Agni Putri'- Tesse Thomas) . Such outstanding personalities were not 'feminists' at all. and have acknowledged the support of the husband, grandfather, father, brother, sons and even grandchildren in their successful life. Even in ancient European societies , especially England , France and Spain, daughters have been denied line of succession to the throne. Still they played not an insignificant role.
Mother of King john and Richard the Lion-heart , led a campaign in crusade war.

Queen Elinor Duchess of Aquitaine, was one such great lady.
As the duchess of Aquitaine, Eleanor was the most eligible bride in Europe. Three months after becoming duchess upon the death of her father, William X, she married King Louis VII of France, son of her guardian, King Louis VI. As queen of France, she participated in the unsuccessful Second Crusade. ( Lion in the Winter- a classic film)

https://sites.google.com/site/wars4rose ... agna-carta

[RSR]

The Pandyan kings were originally from Mathsyadesam on the banks of Yamuna. Puranaanooru says that Pandyans were the descendants of Pandavas of Mahabaratha War. There is a poem in Puranaanooru about a Pandyan Queen lamenting about the fate of widows and preferring death in the funeral pyre of her husband and king. . Just pointing out some mistakes in George Hart narration.

[RSR]

From my personal observations, I would say that the greatest tormentors of a married woman are the women in the husband's household. Women thus are the worst enemies of women.
What a contrast in Shakespeare play
https://shakespeare4tamils.blogspot.com ... -well.html

[sureshvv]

My point is that if sa-gotra weddings are taboo because of a common ancestor gazillion years ago (presumably to avoid consanguinity), the über consanguinity of first cousin weddings should be (have been) so much more taboo by several orders of magnitude. That’s all.

Not necessarily. Something having to do with X & Y chromosomes that (you) medics like to talk about

[Nick H]

A long time ago, I heard a scientist on the radio answering a question about inbreeding, He maintained that it is not nearly as dangerous as thought, and said that, if it was, then colonies of certain animals line rabbits would be in a bad genetic way.

Seems to me that he did not take into account a) the state of the British Aristocracy, and b) that rabbits were once the highly intellectual and scientifically advanced rulers of the planet.

I may have made 'b' up.

[rshankar]

Sure that was a scientist?

[sankark]

The Pandyan kings were originally from Mathsyadesam on the banks of Yamuna. Puranaanooru says that Pandyans were the descendants of Pandavas of Mahabaratha War.

Interesting. Unless well supported, this could be construed as rewrting the history. I was under the impression that a pAndiya king took part in the war and/or fed the armies. That wouldn't tie with the descendants of the war.

[RSR]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivi_Kingdom

The southerly movement of the Sivis is also evidenced from their other settlement called Usinara near Yamuna, ruled by Sivi king called Usinara.[32] Sivis also are attested to have one settlement in Sind, another one in Madhyamika (Tambavati Nagri) near Chittore (in Rajputana) and yet another one on the Dasa Kumara-chrita on the banks of the Kaveri in southern India (Karnataka/Tamil Nadu).[

http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.com/2013/04 ... alism.html

Luckily , you can read and write chaste Thamizh.

@sankark
It was the Chera king Perunchotru Uthiyal Adhan that is sung in Puranannooru as the king who fed both the armies in the great Mahabaratha war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthiyan_Cheralathan

It was common practice of poets to refer to ancestors of patrons.

Not the Pandyans. for the Pandyans were descendants of the Pandavas. as mentioned in PuraNaanooru poem cited above . It also speaks of the Cholas of those times. Kindly read the English part of the blog also with clear maps.


For a clear understanding, we should read about the history of Ancient India before the formation of the Magadha empire. ( pre-Buddhist). We must also read about the warring kingdoms of today's Iraq ( then known as Mesopotamia - the land between the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates). ACDas identifies the three kingdoms as Assyria ( North Iraq)- Cheras, Central Iraq ( Chaldea- Chola) and Sumeria ( Pandyans) in southern most Iraq.

What is more, there was also the Elamite civilization just across the border on the Persian side ( mentioned by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru). Nehruji also mentions the occurrence of 'oor' in Babylon such a common place name in Tamil country.even in Sngam literature centuries . Uraiyoor, OKKOOR Maasaathiyar

The rise of Persian kingdom, today's Iran, ended the feuding kingdoms of Iraq and many of the Iraq soldiery were recruited in the Persian army . There was also a large influx of Iraq people into Sind and western India as Sind was part of Persian kingdom. It was around 700 BC. That was the time when there was great university in TAXILA ( purushpuram, Peshawar).Panini lived there. 700 BC

( After the Mesapotamian kingdoms were vanquished, according the Heimendorf, the three Tamil kings ( Chera, Chozha Pandyas) migrated to southern most areas of India as a safe place.

K.A.Nilakanta Sastry quotes authorities to point out the similarities of temple rituals between ancient Sumeria and the Pandyan temples. Moon God * ( Chanrasekaran) is a common theme as also the Mother Goddess riding the Lion. ( Interstingly. the crescent moon is sacred to Islam also!) ....showing the common ancestry of three great religions Hinduism, Christianity and Islam to the Levant.

Mahabaratha war took place in the Gangetic plain in around 1000 BC. The Tamil kings were then living in Rajasthan, Gandharam and today's Punjab, Haryana, and banks of Yamuna ( Mathsyadesam and its adjoining janapadha Surasena desam ).


After the war, there was considerable chaos in the Gangetic plain.


Like the people of USA, Canada, Australia, Newzeland, and even South Africa, and Sicily, the English people feel a common ancestry.

Similarly, the southern most TAMIL kingdoms had blood relations with their compatriots in the Delhi area ( Indraprastham) and Kurukshethra.


It is significant that Kanyakumari and ThamravarNi areas were famed for Tamizh. ( Pothiya malai). You might have heard of Baratham Paadiya Perundhevanaar. and Aathankoott Aasaan ( thiruvithaabkodu -today's kanyakumari)


Bagavatham explicitly associates Thamizh with Mathsya Avathaaram
https://guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.c ... ge_11.html
and another Pandyan king in Gajendra Moksham.
https://guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.c ... age_7.html
I can cite many more . but I leave it to you to explore .
--------------
A Tamil historian from Jaffna is insisting that the name Nebuchadnezzaar * ( an Assyrian King) that we come across in college history lessons on MESOPOTAMIA is nothing but Nedunchezhiyan but I would rather connect it with Neduncheralaathan. as Chera country is of Assyrian ancestry.

[shankarank]

Here is a good paper presentation that deals with issues surrounding the discourse on history of tamizh, it's grammar and various people issues , including the subject of the thread - whether there were divisions in tamizh society!

https://archive.org/details/Tolkappiyam ... 1/mode/2up

[shankarank]

As regards the ancient vEdic history of India, Shrikanth Talgeri ( a bank clerk - as all Indian academics are sold out) has done research and evolved an alternate theory, and Michael Witzel of Harvard would not buy it.

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/

The colonial period is full of confusion and most learned people of India, even tried to enroll into the racial pride of the western colonial scholars.

[shankarank]

Here is the full account of Pandya migration along with proposed deciphering of Indus script:

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2020 ... eline.html

[sankark]

As regards the ancient vEdic history of India, Shrikanth Talgeri ( a bank clerk - as all Indian academics are sold out) has done research and evolved an alternate theory, and Michael Witzel of Harvard would not buy it.

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/

The colonial period is full of confusion and most learned people of India, even tried to enroll into the racial pride of the western colonial scholars.

Quite a long article; one needs patience and passion to read it, ruminate and make a mental model. Not yet there.

Though one question came up on a quick read: how appropriate/correct is it to interpret druhyu, anu, puru, etc. as tribes or clans? And to treat rk vEda hymns as recorded history (even oral)?

[shankarank]

I don't think Shrikanth is the pioneer on interpreting references in Rig vEda as historical pointers. Much of mainstream history has been developed by doing the same thing! Right from Mortimer Wheeler.

In the vEdic tradition, the meaning of vEdas should not be studied independently without guidance from Acharyas. That is the traditional approach to learn and live by vEdic way of life.

Just because they may have poetic, mystical allegories, does not mean real world references , geography, river names, flora, fauna, real people (tribes) are also to be discarded. If history can be deduced from purnaanooru which is also poetry, same standard can be applied here.

Shrikanth is applying the same standards of evidence, as the mainstream historians, to counter their own arguments!

[sankark]

I don't think Shrikanth is the pioneer on interpreting references in Rig vEda as historical pointers. Much of mainstream history has been developed by doing the same thing! Right from Mortimer Wheeler.

Fair. Same token if all those Western Indologists were just surmising or dreaming up stuff that just were figments of their imagination or agenda then one goes down the wrong path.

Just because they may have poetic, mystical allegories, does not mean real world references , geography, river names, flora, fauna, real people (tribes) are also to be discarded. If history can be deduced from purnaanooru which is also poetry, same standard can be applied here.

That is not fair. No one is claiming puRanAnURu verses are "seen" revealed eternal truths. They are outputs of "human agency" about the mundane and petty and foibles of human beings along with some lofty ideas/ideals.

[shankarank]

You are mixing up contexts. The claims about revealed truth are relevant in a traditional setting, a seeker in front of a Guru. And here we are only importing references to real world things like references to Rivers, geography, people etc. What is the truth history is after? It must stick to the evidence methods of that pursuit!

If river ganga can be twisted to be Akash ganga, then yamuna, parushni are all in the Akash?

Tamizh kappiyams also venerate the river kAvEri in their own way!

[sankark]

You are mixing up contexts. The claims about revealed truth are relevant in a traditional setting, a seeker in front of a Guru. And here we are only importing references to real world things like references to Rivers, geography, people etc. What is the truth history is after? It must stick to the evidence methods of that pursuit!

If river ganga can be twisted to be Akash ganga, then yamuna, parushni are all in the Akash?

Tamizh kappiyams also venerate the river kAvEri in their own way!

The view prevalently used for these textual analysis, these take an implicit humon-authored axiomatic approach and just haggles on time/geographic origins. Thus a guru sishya traditionalist holding the vEdam's as apaurushEya, anAdhi should indulge, I would aver, on that the etymological, geographical and linguistic analysis etc. as pure intellectual what-if?

The two are parallel lines that will never intersect or commingle to a unified theory then?

[shankarank]

When vEdam is held as apaurushEya, it refers to the sounds and contents of it as revealed to the rishis! But the revealed thoughts have to be represented using language of the real world , haven't they? So when referring to the actual words and their ordinary import, the same traditional scholars have the adhikAram to take a position on what they mean as well.

As regards Talageri , he is only replying to western scholars using the same paradigm they used. They have already translated and done the damage anyways. So he is arguing in their realm.

[shankarank]

As regards Indus decipherment, here is an example of what the combo animal sculptures that we see in the temples mean: https://www.academia.edu/44320893/Y%C4% ... ary_crafts

In fact the Makara sculpture, that K.K. Mohammed excavated in Ayodhya , and what we see in temples , he mentioned refers to River Ganga!

[Nick H]

Hey, what is SaloniSharma?

... a spammer.

[RasikasModerator2]

Hey, what is SaloniSharma?

... a spammer.

And now banned. Thanks for spotting 'em.